Monday May 28, 2012

British PM clashes with police over 'zero tolerance' strategy, hiring U.S. cop

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Sir Hugh Orde, President of the Association of British Chief Police Officers, addresses the media AFP

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  • -2

    some14some

    It gives the impression that British PM lacks confidence...Zero Tolerance = Timid Cameron. National Police dignity should be maintained at any cost.

  • 2

    Triumvere

    National Police dignity should be maintained at any cost

    What does this even mean? I'm sorry but I my top concen is that my police be effective. If Bill Bratton can help them do that, then nuts to their "dignity." They sound insular and petty, bristling that way at the thought of an "outsider" coming in. Nothing dignified about that at all.

  • 0

    Virtuoso

    People rioted and looted with apparent impunity because there was little or nothing to discourage them from doing so. It also appears that most of those arrested so far were identified from images taken by the security cameras, or people who gave up their mates under police questioning. The main different between UK and USA style crowd control is that the latter is more likely to dispense punishment to errant citizens on the spot, and not a day or two later, by sending constables to knock on the doors of the perpetrators' homes. I don't think Britain needs to adopt the US system but bringing in an outside consultant may be helpful in identifying shortcomings that would help the UK deal with future recurrences.

  • -3

    steve@CPFC

    Yeah get someone from the good ole USA who have the highest percent of adult popualtion in prison at any one time, The government are so out of touch it is beyond belief, Nearly all of Britain leaders are public school toffs including Clegg.. If you are out of touch with teh people you acnnot govern effectively. No excuse for rioting or violence though.

  • -1

    Elbuda Mexicano

    I am sure many young people in the UK feel it is the right time to vent their anger, vent their frustrations, you know, right before the olympics, get world attention etc..so this zero tolerance bs, is 100% bs, people are hungry, out of work, see no future in their lives, nothing to loose while the posh, upper class of the UK get all happy about spending millions and millions of $$$$$ pounds?? sorry not on my pc, while the lower class sit around drunk and angry?? Way to go UK! Or should I see, you still have a long way to go UK??

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    PRIME Minister David Cameron has asked former New York police commissioner Bill Bratton to act as a consultant to British police......

    As a "consultant" - not as police chief or PM. I didn't think the Metropolitan Police was above asking for advice.

  • -4

    tkoind2

    The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence. Only a brain dead conservative PM would resort to importing an American cop to deal with rioting which had little or nothing to do with the kind of gangs the US cop would be familiar with.

    I am with the UK police on this one. This is a bad move.

    Sometimes I wonder if all the right wing conservatives were fed the same lead filled baby formula to create the kind of backwards thinking these guys seem to be so keen on no matter where in the world they come from.

  • 3

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind2

    The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence.

    Sometimes I wonder if all the right wing conservatives were fed the same lead filled baby formula to create the kind of backwards thinking these guys seem to be so keen on no matter where in the world they come from.

    You seem imply you have the answer. What is it? How should America (and Britain) deal with gang violence?

  • -2

    Asagao

    England ain't America. Zero tollerance alienates society even more, which is the root cause of the problem. As for blaming gangs, they exist in Britain, but they are totally different to US gangs. This idiot is likely to destroy British society just so he and his tiffs can maintain the class system.

  • -5

    just-a-guy

    Britian is one of the states of United states and sure their Prime Minister has an 'american mind'! Hiring the american top-cop is good for the Anglo-American alliance, that means Britian needs US desperately!

  • 1

    Lizz

    "The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence. Only a brain dead conservative PM would resort to importing an American cop to deal with rioting which had little or nothing to do with the kind of gangs the US cop would be familiar with."

    OK, so he hasn't singlehandedly transformed the entire country. Next question. Chief Bratton does happen to be the face behind highly successful gang reduction programs and innovative policing management strategies in Los Angeles and New York among other places. Besides the British police are not asking for help from the "US." They are looking to a particular individual with an international reputation as a tough crime fighter who has a strong track record of accomplishment and who has presided over a record drop in crime in cities where he has worked. More power to them.

  • 0

    tokyokawasaki

    Britian is one of the states of United states

    'just-a-guy' I am sure you have just insulted most fellow Brits with that ridiculous statement.

    We do not need the US. The UK needs to stop almost all immigrants, control/prevent violent/damaging religious groups from always getting their own way. Act tougher on the younger 'I don't care attitude' kids. Reenact National Service. Stop the dependence on welfare and create more jobs/opportunities for Brits and not the hoards of radical immigrants. The UK has lost it's way, and I know the road forward is going to be tough. But the country needs leaders that understand the issues and concerns voiced by the average man on the street.

    No former US cop is going to fully understand the unique issues facing the UK population.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    BreitbartVictorious

    The answer is clearly not repression of individual liberties. This is not and has never been an effective solution to social upheaval. Check your history and you will find that in most cases repression results in greater social discontent and fuels opposition.

    Now, if you are looking for solutions I suggest you put aside things like twitter and facebook and look to the roots of problems. The US and UK share one key set of factors on this topic. And those revolve around the disaffection of portions of society, often along the lines of poverty and sometimes along the lines of race. It is often in these communities where jobs, education and opportunities are scarce that we see the rise of gangs and we see the rise of rioting.

    The implications are clear that we must begin to address the root causes in order to keep social anger and outrage from festering. The kind of rage we saw in the UK recently does not magically appear because of facebook. It appears because there are seething issues that inspire anger, frustration and outrage in communities.

    While in the best cases this anger appears to the public in the form of activism and protests, these often illustrate only a port of the community. Those not empowered or inspired to political activism may turn to solving their own problems through anti-social means such as gangs, crime and violence. Add to that poor policing practices and ineffective social policy and you have a recipie for violence on both sides.

  • -1

    tkoind2

    So is there a simple one sentence answer to these problems. No. But it is quite clear that one must address the root issues to avoid the type of violence we have seen. twitter and facebook don't enter into it beyond their role as networking tools. Something people managed to organize without in past riots, leaving us sure that such restrictions will accomplish nothing. Do remember riots happened before facebook, before the internet and before telephones. The PM is being escapist in his hope that such restrictions will accomplish anything other than violating civil freedom.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    " Stop the dependence on welfare and create more jobs/opportunities for Brits and not the hoards of radical immigrants."

    I see the rise of the right wing anti-multiculturalists is very real. Please do refer back to Germany in 1936 for reference to how that kind of thinking often works out.

  • 0

    proxy

    How about a zero tolerance policy on shenanigans in the City?

    How about stop letting every aXXhole with a pot of money into your country? There is a very long list of questionable people from around the world with London addresses.

    How about stop selling weapons to dictators?

    How about charging Tony Blair with war crimes?

  • -2

    hoserfella

    The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence. Only a brain dead conservative PM would resort to importing an American cop to deal with rioting which had little or nothing to do with the kind of gangs the US cop would be familiar with.

    Tkoind - do a little research on Bratton and you'll see there are marked improvements in LA, Boston and NY. As for the usual response by certain Brits who hate anything US-related, it's YOUR country that looks like a post-apocalyptic S***hole right now (confirmed by many of my British friends here in Japan who are usually the only foreigners who DON'T want to return to their home country at some point).

  • -3

    YuriOtani

    I heard it is illegal to defend yourself there or in other words the lawful are sheep. Yes the Europeans hate anything America related and that includes crime prevention. The punk that killed will get little to no time. In the USA he would soon be somebodies "girlfriend" in prison.

  • 2

    AerosX

    Tkoind2

    The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence. Only a brain dead conservative PM would resort to importing an American cop to deal with rioting which had little or nothing to do with the kind of gangs the US cop would be familiar with.

    Ironically, as a previous poster commented gang violence has decreased year after year in cities like NYC and L.A. Most places in NYC was extremely scary to travel 20+ years ago. Today most places are safe. The U.K police should take lesson from American law enforces, because their law enforcement is too timid. When muslims riot and demand for the execution of someone or when other minorities riot, the U.K police don't even bother preventing the riot damages or containing rioters. Their excuse for this is " it's a cultural thing" political correctness doe's not allow them to stop riots. Where as American law enforcers would not have allowed these British rioters to hand out the amount of private property damage they have done.

  • 1

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind you keep talking about 'root causes' and a need for 'addressing problems' but you never really describe either.

    twitter and facebook don't enter into it beyond their role as networking tools.

    Here you are flat out wrong. Much of the violence and mayhem was coordinated, and we are learning that organized gangs took advantage of the supposedly spontaneous 'uprising' to expand the sphere of their criminal activities. I have also read that some of the acts of arson committed displayed a degree of deliberateness and accuracy suspiciously close to what could be called professional expertise in the matter, meaning some of the perps probably aren't on social media and the internet for the same reason you and your pals are; they use the net to study things that would raise a few eyebrows if you walked into your local library and inquired about.

    tkoind this is just a cop-out:

    I see the rise of the right wing anti-multiculturalists is very real. Please do refer back to Germany in 1936 for reference to how that kind of thinking often works out.

    If anything it is the rioting hoodlums and criminal gangs who are nascent brownshirts, waiting for their Hitler.

  • 1

    bass4funk

    @tkoind2

    The US has utterly failed to deal with gang violence. Only a brain dead conservative PM would resort to importing an American cop to deal with rioting which had little or nothing to do with the kind of gangs the US cop would be familiar with.

    So please tell us, what solution do you have? Obviously if Cameron invited Bill Bratton with his parties consensus, he must have a good reason. Being from the heart of L.A. I know what kind of gang problems exist and it is a serious problem, however, after the last two riots that L.A went through, I can guarantee you this, None of the notorious gangs would get on the street and loot and riot like that again, why, because of the zero tolerance policy that they have. None of the gang members want to risk losing their operations, their freedoms by going out on the street and terrorizing people. There is an epidemic of gang culture in L.A. but anyone that knows L.A. knows the gangs live in areas most people don't frequent and they are better contained. Is the system perfect, of course not, but it is a big improvement as to how life was during the 80's when a lot of people were afraid to go out into the streets and this is due to the aggressive tactics the LAPD employ. I think this is a very good move on Cameron to bring Bratton in. Let's hope some good will come of this and that it will put an end to these kind of shenanigans.

  • 0

    bass4funk

    @proxy

    How about charging Tony Blair with war crimes?

    Where did that come from. Didn't know he had anything to do with this situation.

  • 0

    bass4funk

    but they are totally different to US gangs. This idiot is likely to destroy British society just so he and his tiffs can maintain the class system.

    How are they different. They suck up a whole lot more entitlements and drain an already heavily taxed and burdened society? Yes, I agree, British gangs mooch a lot more off the government than the American gangs, this is why so many of them felt gleefully happy and justified in rioting, looting and taking stolen property.

  • 2

    tkoind2

    BreitbartVictorious

    Aren't the problems obvious? Perhaps that is where the true roots rest. You have no idea and I imagine that the government is just as blind.

    1. Poverty: World wide the greatest link to gang creation and violence, the greatest source of frustration and social unrest.

    2. Unemployment or Underemployment: Legions in the developed world who wish to work viable jobs cannot. Rampant unemployment, and the often ignored underemployment lead to sustaining the cycle of poverty in these communities.

    3. Lack of Opportunity: Many communities start off negatively with poor schools, poor education and little or no opportunities for families to raise the next generation out of the cycle of poverty. Leading to generation after generation of people stuck in a viscious cycle of decline.

    " Much of the violence and mayhem was coordinated..." And if Facebook and Twitter are not there, do you really think this stops? People managed the Russian revolution without computers, cell phones, TV or even wide spread radio.

    You accomplish nothing by violating the freedom of social networking. People are resourceful and smart and will simply find other means. Read history if you need examples.

    "If anything it is the rioting hoodlums and criminal gangs who are nascent brownshirts, waiting for their Hitler." You cannot be serious. We have already seen and acknowledged a rise in right wing anti-immigration, anti-minority and racialist movements in the UK and all over Europe. These are your new Brown Shirts leveraging their hate to blame all of the social ills upon minorities. If anything the minorities in Europe are in danger of becoming the 21st centuries victims.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    Bass4Funk. When will people learn that you cannot contain the violence of gangs and the associated social problems resulting from povery and disaffection? These problems ALWAYs spill out into the rest of society in the form of crime, corruption, expenses or other issues.

    Until you learn to combat these issues at the root causes you cannot win. We need real solutions not short term ineffectual fixes.

  • 0

    bass4funk

    Until you learn to combat these issues at the root causes you cannot win. We need real solutions not short term ineffectual fixes

    Ok, tkoind2 ,how would you solve these plaguing problems, please be specific.

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind

    Poverty: World wide the greatest link to gang creation and violence, the greatest source of frustration and social unrest.

    Utter b.s.

    Poverty was the fate of nearly everyone until capitalism and free markets developed. Poverty is also relative. I didn't see too many looters stealing food. Did you?

    You live in Japan, which of course has a gang problem of its own. Are you seriously going to tell us that Yakuza all come from 'disadvantaged' homes? LOL.

    • Moderator

      The yakuza are not relevant to this discussion.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    Briet...

    Capitalism is concentrating wealth in a tiny minority and leaving much of the rest of the world in poverty. Since globalization has made labor a commodity, it has even begun to impoverish the middle classes.

    Yes poverty is relative. The poverty in Somalia and London would be different. But none the less a key factor in social and political investment of people. You clearly need a greater understanding of what constitute poverty in the first world. There are factors beyond food that people will rise up in protest over.

    As for the Yakuza. I cannot speak to that as I do not have a foundation in their culture. I did not say ALL gangs come from poverty. Clearly there are exceptions and nothing is absolute. The world, friend, is colorful and not black and white. But the colors of the globe do include many examples where poverty and gang development are intimately tied. The US, S. America and many other places stand as key examples.

    Most of the countries in question need to find ways to break the cycle of poverty. Job creation for starters. Better education and higher education opportunties.

  • 2

    AerosX

    Tkoind2

    Capitalism is concentrating wealth in a tiny minority and leaving much of the rest of the world in poverty. Since globalization has made labor a commodity, it has even begun to impoverish the middle classes.

    That is corporatism which is another form of fascism. You cannot concentrate wealth into a tiny minority without some govt program that forces this.

    Capitalism has eradicated poverty everywhere where it has been practiced. Japan, South Korea, Singapore, Hong Kong and the U.S are examples of this.

    It's time for you to grow up and put down the "Communist Manifesto" by your hero Karl Marx and the "General Theory" by your second hero Maynard Keynes and time you pick up "Nation State and Economy" by Ludwig Von Mises.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    bass4funk.

    Solving problems costs money. Whether we follow your idea of harder enforcement, or the more enlightened solution of addressing the root issues. The first step is to acknowledge this fact and be willing to spend money to solve problems.

    Some examples.

    1. Jobs: Real jobs not underemployment jobs.
    2. Training and Re-Education: Empowering people to launch new careers through better training and eduction.

    3. Empowerment: Giving greater political and social infrastructure to communities to help solve problems and involve people in their own fate. Where this has been done, we have seen greater response by locals to control crime and gangs.

    4. Microeconomic structures: This has been profoundly effective in the developing world to enable local people to launch businesses, achieve loans that empower job creation and local economic development. Apply this to our cities as well.

    And there are innumerable other programs that have had outstanding traction around the world.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    AerosX. Why, when anyone critiques capitalism the first thing you lot jump to is communism. Let me clear this up for you friend. I AM NOT A COMMUNIST. Now can we move on with the discussion and talk about issues?

    Capitalism is corporatism. The kind of rise up by your boot straps capitalism most people talk about has been dead since the great depression. Corporatism is the 21st century manifestation of capitalism.

    Did capitalism work for a while? Yes, but the current form is unsustainable, thus you have growing gaps between rich and poor and global poverty over 40% of the people on the planet. Now the entire world more or less exists in capitalism, so how exactly does leaving out 40% + illustrate your claim of it raising everyone up.

    When labor becomes a commodity there is price pressure. Downwards price pressure. Thus lost jobs in expensive labor markets replaced by cheap jobs in depressed places. In time all labor value diminishes and poverty rises with this outcome. People become frustrated and angry and you have outbursts of anger in the streets.

    Further the current form of capitalism is unsustainable as resources and fuel diminish in availability.We already see this in the post 2008 jobless recoveries and in the decline of new job creation and the stagnation of economies like Japan and the collapse of debt in Europe. Capitalism is caving in on itself and riots are the least of our worries should this process continue.

  • 0

    proxy

    @BreitbartVictorious

    Sweden had GDP growth of 6.4% in 2010, has one of the highest tax rates in the world and one of the best social security systems in the world. The Swedish government says the objective of social policy model is "to reduce the gaps between different social groups while giving people security, the opportunity to develop and an acceptable economic standard."

    If what you define as "socialism" can work there it can work in the UK as well.

    And for your information, both in Japan and in China, government has played a pivotal role of lifting people out of poverty.

    You should also be aware that there are almost daily riots of one sort or another in China.

  • 2

    Nicky Washida

    I find it kind of ironic that we all sit here regularly discussing what needs to be done to fix Japan with our "outsider" vison - then decry the UK government for bringing in an outsider to help them with their problems!

    I dont think this is a bad thing at all - a fresh pair of eyes, an outside perspective, he will still be working with people who now the unique intricacies of UK culture and it doesnt sound to me like he will be in charge of any policy-making. Unlike most of us here, he has a track record in solving these problems. It remains to be seen whether this is a positive move but I certainly dont see it as a negative one and I think the metropolitcan police are looking a little childish by protesting his appointment.

  • 1

    Nicky Washida

    Should add: wish Japan would do the same thing and appoint some of us as advisors!

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind

    When labor becomes a commodity there is price pressure. Downwards price pressure. Thus lost jobs in expensive labor markets replaced by cheap jobs in depressed places.

    You make it sound like expensive labor markets just sort of happen; that over-regulation and gov intervention and cronyism play no part in their creation.

  • -2

    AerosX

    Tkoin

    I AM NOT A COMMUNIST

    Those with your views are either Keynes or Communist/Socialist.

    Capitalism is corporatism

    Capitalism does* NOT * = corporatism. Is it capitalism when the govt bails out a failing auto industry or bad bank at the expense of tax payers money? Under capitalism bad companies are destroyed by their own bad practices and replaced by more efficient ones.

    see this in the post 2008 jobless recoveries

    Your are most likely a Keynes by this quote. There is no such thing as a "jobless recovery" it's an oxymoron. Their is only one method for recovery/growth. And that method goes by the following steps, Savings, Investments and production of real goods and services.

    @Proxy

    Sweden had GDP growth of 6.4% in 2010, has one of the highest tax rates in the world and one of the best social security systems in the world. If what you define as "socialism" can work there it can work in the UK as well.

    Your 20 years behind. Swede is a *former * socialist economy. It's actually a "social market economy", which is vastly different from socialism. And that is because socialism in Swede failed and tanked it's economy in the early 1990's. Because of Sweden's socialist policies, the free market forced Sweden to set interest rates to exactly 500%. Sweden is one of the world leaders when it comes to pro free-market reforms.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    Never been in a gang myself, but I imagine it gives you a sense of comradeship, respect, recognition and identity. Back in the UK I used to be acquainted with back patch motorcycle club members, and there is an attraction in the sense of being different from "the norm" (this doesn't imply a connection with violence). Gang members are obviously getting something from it (safer to be in a gang than not in one?) that they don't get from society at large. Society's values are top down, whereas gang culture is bottom up - more autonomy there. I think Britain's police force should be open to ideas, whether that's from Americans or not.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    AerosX "Those with your views are either Keynes or Communist/Socialist." Just because you are only aware of these two examples, does not mean that there are not other ideologies and economic models. Do expand your understanding and thinking about the world rather than trying to pigeonhole people into tiny inappropriate boxes.

    Nice try anyway.

    "Capitalism does* NOT * = corporatism" Prove that one exists in our modern world without the other and we can talk. They are twins attached at the hip and head.

    "Your are most likely a Keynes by this quote." What is with you and the need to pigeonhole people. Expand your vision friend. Many people bring many economic and social ideas together to form their vision. You should try it.

    Proxy touched on a key issue. Closing the gaps economically also close the gaps politically and socially and invite far less disenfranchisement in a society. You can have free markets and still have a socially responsible society. It is unchecked capitalism that is the problem. Not the socially conscientious programs that help close economic gaps and empower people to rise.

    Just quit trying to force people into name definitions. You need to see that people have complex visions of the world that prescribe solutions to a world that is equally complex. No pigeonhole can achieve that.

  • 0

    proxy

    @AerosX Nice try.

    Sweden deregulated their banking industry in the mid '80s which led to a huge credit expansion and with Sweden allowing people to deduct interest payments from their taxes. One little financial institution that had recklessly lent money could not roll over their debt and the entire house of cards collapsed.

    The cause of Sweden's banking crisis was not socialism, they financialized their economy.

    The scenario is almost exactly the same as what happened in the US, the UK, and Ireland that have socialized the losses of the careless unregulated banking industry.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    Proxy. Thanks for a great post.

  • 2

    GW

    tkoind2,

    You nailed it bud! On a large scale its pretty simple comes down to wealth/opportunities & how its spread out from poor to rich.

    Now I know there will always be poor, middle class & rich anywhere. The problem is the wealth created either through actual products, services(as opposed to funny $$ created by wallsteet types which almost all goes to the rich!)) etc has been overly diverted to the rich side. And its been this way for too long, hence unsustainable, we are way past sustainable now.

    The riots that happened in the UK could happen in pretty much any westernized economy imo & WILL! Note I am not condoning this, only predicting it.

    I have nothing against being rich, however there are clearly a small group who are pilfering the worlds economies on a massive scale & it simply cant go on without consequence, what we saw in the UK is but an example. More can & will happen.

    If the super rich dont change their ways some eventually they will have to pay one way or another, as I see it the choice is largely theirs, if they have the smarts to realize it!

    Time will tell, hold on as we are likely in for more turbulence!

  • 0

    Ari94

    I watched movies and I though British Police is great. But I am surprised by this statement:

    "British Prime Minister David Cameron pledged Sunday a “zero tolerance” crackdown after recent riots, fueling a row with police over plans for a U.S. “supercop” to help tackle street gang violence."

    So UK need US supercop why not call in US military they are good, experienced and helpful. US military recently helped Japan in Earthquake/Tsunami and everybody had praised their efforts.

  • -1

    bass4funk

    The cause of Sweden's banking crisis was not socialism, they financialized their economy

    The U.S. is NOT Sweden and Sweden is NOT the UK, different countries, different social structures, economy, population etc.

  • -2

    AerosX

    Sweden deregulated their banking industry in the mid '80s which led to a huge credit expansion and with Sweden allowing people to deduct interest payments from their taxes. One little financial institution that had recklessly lent money could not roll over their debt and the entire house of cards collapsed.

    The cause of Sweden's banking crisis was not socialism, they financialized their economy.

    You cannot de-regulate the banking industry and end up with massive credit expansion right into reckless lending. Private lenders would not lend unless they know your going to pay them back. When the govt sponsors a loan, they will allow anyone even those of no income/low income no savings backgrounds under the guise of "fairness" and "equality". When a govt regulated bank issues out a loan, it will always be covered whether the individual pays it or the govt via tax-payers bail out. Your gonna have to get acquainted with the Austrian school of economics. http://mises.org/daily/2259 http://mises.org/daily/4936

    There will always be unintended consequences to all govt actions in the market that disrupt individual choice. Ad this video shows it with shocking detail http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij4H9M55c64

  • 0

    GW

    aerosX

    take off the blinders man, slap on a wider angle onto your view of the world & you might see the obvious.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    "The U.S. is NOT Sweden and Sweden is NOT the UK, different countries, different social structures, economy, population etc."

    No kidding. But does that mean that the principles that work for one nation are impossible for another? Hardly! N. Europe has had numerous examples of how a society can flatten and lead to greater equality within a market economy. This is something that we should be looking to for clues to solve problems in the UK and in the US. Refusing to learn lessons from another culture is self destructive and counter productive to the goals our societies need to achieve.

    AerosX. The Depression era should have taught us a great deal. 1.That capitalism will not selfregulate, it must be regulated by oversight. A point reconfirmed in 2008. 2. De-regulation allows banking and business to abuse the freedom to feed their greed at the expense of the people. Again both the depression era and 2008 validate this contention.

    Regulation would never have allowed the exotic funds of the recent crisis to arise. It is the fault of conservative leadership in the US and other nations that empowered both the financial services and insurance industries to create the pit they all fell into in 2008. The post depression regulation was put in place to protect the people. But de-regulation exists only to protect the greedy.

    Fairness and Equality are two objectives we should all aspire to. As this will invariably lead to greater social morality and consideration of all economic strata. It is absolutely possible to have a fair and free market economy, intelligently regulated and equitable to the people. The only people who believe this is impossible are those who stand to lose their power of stealing the worlds wealth. More and more people from poor on up are realizing this fact. 2008 made clear the cost of failing to change. Did you miss that time? Because you clearly failed to learn the hard taught lessons.

  • -4

    AerosX

    As this will invariably lead to greater social morality and consideration of all economic strata. It is absolutely possible to have a fair and free market economy, intelligently regulated and equitable to the people.

    blah blah blah blah is all I am reading from this, your evidence that the economy can intelligently be regulated? China? i think not, not when countless empty nameless cities sit across china and even Spain. Not when the savings of Chinese citizens are actually confiscated to make govt loans. The all so noble enlightened Europeans with their E.U? not even, just look at the P.I.I.G.S. Also how about you define fairness? I am almost sure that your definition of "fairness" is somehow related to taking wealth or material wealth or even infringing upon the private property of others for someone else. Capitalism never caused the great depression< http://mises.org/daily/2845 http://mises.org/rothbard/agd/contents.asp> In fact once the govt got involved it evolved from a depression INTO a great depression.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    So your answer to a debate is name calling AerosX. I guess that is the last defense of those who are failing to win a point. Well done. Very academic of you.

    Look, I am very happy for you that you have found a group that represents your point of view. Mises is a very conservative if not right wing think tank that hardly represents "Fact" in the broad sense of the word. This group has met with conserable criticism from the mainstream for unothodox views. Some examples include.

    Some reviews of your source material.

    "Conservative commentator Whittaker Chambers published a similarly negative review of that book in the National Review, stating that Mises's thesis that anti-capitalist sentiment was rooted in "envy" epitomized "know-nothing conservatism" at its "know-nothingest."

    "A number of critics of Mises, including economist J. Bradford DeLong[26] and sociologist Richard Seymour,[27] have criticized Mises for writing approvingly of fascism in Liberalism, a book published in 1927:"

    So post all the links to this guy that you wish, clearly his views are extreme and often noted for their lack of understanding or compassion for people. What is economics without compassion and care for people?

    Nice try. And you may well want to come down off that high horse with some better sources before calling people names friend. Especially when quoting people who are borderline fascist in political nature.

    • Moderator

      All readers, please keep t he discussion civil and remember that good manners apply in cyberspace, too.

  • 2

    proxy

    @ AerosX

    "Private lenders would not lend unless they know your going to pay them back."

    Over 600 000 people in the UK have gone into bankruptcy in the past 5 years. There were 1,593,081 personal bankruptcies filed in the US in 2010 and 1.47 million business bankruptcies.

    Why did private lenders lend all that money to people and businesses that did not pay them back?

    Why did Domain Capital lend money to sex.com and not be paid back?

    Socialist Canada now has a higher GDP per capita in $US than the US.

    I think we would certainly agree on one thing though, governments should not bail out failed business.

    The US and the UK governments failed miserable when they decided to bail out failed banks. Force the banks to mark to market and let the ones that are insolvent die quick deaths!

  • -1

    tkoind2

    Proxy, thanks again, a welcome ally in this otherwise very right oriented debate.

  • -2

    AerosX

    I don't like these mods.

    • Moderator

      You don't have to like the Mods. All we ask is that all readers stay on topic, and not post anything that is impolite or offensive. Good manners apply in cyberspace, too.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    AerosX. The mods want to keep the discussion fair and civil. And they have been more than open on this topic today to allow the discussion to evolve and include many related issues.

  • 1

    Oracle

    I don't envy the British this situation at all, and I don't think I have any wonderful answers for it.

    But advice should be welcome at this stage, even if it is from an American. Even if his advice is bad, sometimes it takes someone giving bad advice to realize just how much the answer lies in the opposite direction.

    Sad fact is, there may not be any solutions that work at the government level. The government may have to step aside and let the people take care of it themselves, at least temporarily. When you have anarchy, its better to admit it than try to pretend you still have control.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    There are inescapable facts that face us in the 21st century. Many of those involve the role of poverty in how the world will be this century. And it is an issue that threatens to expand as economic hardship spreads into the previously more stable developed nations.

    We can no longer ignore poverty or dismiss it as a problem for the "third world." In its many forms poverty is present in Europe, America and the UK and it is not going to go away without our hard work and intervention. And if we fail in doing what is necessary to address poverty, then we invite more civil unrest and social upheaval.

    Safety and security both within our domestic nations and in our international involvement will hinge upon dealing with poverty and disaffection. Those problems lead to much of the crime, gang related activity and even politcial violence around the world. And it is growing worst.

    You can call me a socialist or whatever other name you feel compelled to label me with, but it does not change the fact that we have to rethink our approach to how our societies work economically. And we must confront these challenges with new vision and open minds to explore new solutions. Everything depends upon this shift from polarized, pigeonedholed political dogma, to far more practical and humanistic approaches to finding real solutions to our problems.

    If we do not, then we risk inviting the same kind of scapgoating and hatred that defined the 1930's and 40's. And we risk the rise of fascism again when people choose hatred and repression over more civil and enlightened solutions to these problems.

  • 1

    Oracle

    tkoind2, yes, for the longterm. What do you suggest for the short-term? That is really what this is about.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    Short term, open dialogue with those communities. Enact programs to help get people back to work. Launch work to find out if policing is indeed leading to public outrage.

    These tacit steps may help empower local community leaders to work to restrain outrage. But it must be followed by very real programs to get people out of poverty and to social invest them in society. That will cost money. A lot of it, but that is the cost of flattening society and solving the problem when considerable economic and social gaps appear.

  • 2

    smithinjapan

    "...saying a home-grown policy would be better."

    There's no reason a 'home-grown' policy cannot have foreign input, especially when that input could be critical in fixing problems. Not saying it will be, but it could be, and there's no reason that potential should be denied save for a wee bit o' pride.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    Gotta agree with the mods on this one. You guys are posting excellent comments and I find the back and forth very interesting to read. Just need less sniping. Thanks.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    But it must be followed by very real programs to get people out of poverty and to social invest them in society. That will cost money. A lot of it, but that is the cost of flattening society and solving the problem when considerable economic and social gaps appear.

    @tkoind2 - really enjoying your posts as well as others. Some commentators in the UK are saying that poverty in the country is relative. People in the UK don't starve, have free education, free houses if necessary and free health care provision. I wonder what your thoughts are on this. Lots of food for thought on this thread.

  • 2

    Nicky Washida

    Most of the people rioting were not from deprived socio-economic backgrounds.

    I am not an expert, but being a Brit who has lived overseas for a long time, I see many differences between home and other places I have been. The biggest seems to be no pride in and respect for themselves, their country, and other people. You cant give anarchists jobs, education, opportunities. They will still be anarchists. There is a strong sense of entitlement without lifting a finger in the UK. "I want, I take" as my Mum says.

    This was a bunch of people looting because they could. They didnt give a crap about the people, the businesses, the area that they were affecting. They knew they were going to get away with it for the most part. Worst case scenario, they get slapped with an ASBO. Big deal.

    This is the culture in the UK now in certain quarters - no respect for anyone or anything.

    The solutions? Make the banks actually pay back the government money they took to bail themselves out. So we lose that talent? That was the same "talent" that caused the crash in the first place. Re-start national service. Sort out the benefits system so that it goes to people who genuinely need it, and not the scroungers. Get ex-cons to mentor young offenders. Harden the prison system and have a "3 strikes and youre out" policy. Makre PARENTS take some responsibility for the behaviour of their offspring. These kids already HAVE educational opportunities, money, housing and other options thrown at them. But they are not taking the opportunities because they cant be bothered. They need a proverbial rocket up their bums.

  • -1

    Lizz

    Crime is a potential or likely byproduct of poverty but poverty and low quality of life are also direct consequences of crime. Violence in communities lowers property values, chokes out business enterprises, siphons off taxes for police, courts jails and security over schools etc. All of which have the effect of reducing the number of jobs available to the poor. The vast majority of poor people are obviously honest, law-abiding citizens. Give them back their property, their stores, their freedom to walk the streets at night and economic intervention may stand a chance. Opportunities for advancement are meaningless to people being terrorized by drug dealers, murderers and thieves.

    Sensible regulations definitely have a legitimate place to stabilize the financial system, avoid predatory capitalism and ensure that both sides are playing fairly and by the rules. But regulation to achieve political objectives inimical to the good of the majority is an abuse of power. The American economy is in the dumpster largely because under the Obama regime imposes unreasonable restrictions that stifle small businesses and job growth while lack of meaningful governance.enriches his Wall Street Friends through crony capitalism. It is the worst of both worlds.

  • 2

    Farmboy

    Well, I wish them all luck with this, and I really don't know whether or not this new guy can help. Time will tell. It will be a difficult problem to solve.

  • -2

    BreitbartVictorious

    Mises is a very conservative if not right wing think tank that hardly represents "Fact" in the broad sense of the word.

    LOL. You can't even recognize that mises.org is a libertarian site? Tkoind you are a hoot. It's Nazis everywhere with you. Mises (Jewish by birth) escaped to America after being hounded across Europe by Hitler's National Socialists. His private residence in Vienna was one of the first the Nazis seized.

  • -1

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind

    These tacit steps may help empower local community leaders to work to restrain outrage. But it must be followed by very real programs to get people out of poverty and to social invest them in society. That will cost money. A lot of it, but that is the cost of flattening society and solving the problem when considerable economic and social gaps appear.

    And where has this ever worked??? "Flattening" society? Only totalitarians want everyone 'equal.'

  • 1

    Oracle

    tkoind2Aug. 15, 2011 - 04:49PM JST

    Short term, open dialogue with those communities.

    Okay, so who is to talk to whom? Do you think someone is speaking for these rioters??

    Enact programs to help get people back to work. Launch work to find out if policing is indeed leading to public outrage.

    And BAM! You have gone right back to talking about the long term again! That and the rest of the post.

    If your short term solution is to endure the violence, looting and burning of cars and buildings until your long term solutions can start taking affect, please say so clearly.

  • 1

    proxy

    @BreitbartVictorious

    "Flattening" society" has worked pretty good in the Nordic countries, Canada and Australia which all rank high in social mobility.

    The OECD has noted that the UK has about the lowest social mobility in developed countries. (The US hardly does much better than the UK.)

    It seems to me that both in the UK and US they make a big deal celebrating somebody who has "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" as it is pretty rare for people born into the lower end of the social scale to succeed but iy is not newsworthy in other countries with much higher social mobility.

  • 0

    freakashow

    I dont think this is a bad thing at all - a fresh pair of eyes, an outside perspective, he will still be working with people who now the unique intricacies of UK culture and it doesnt sound to me like he will be in charge of any policy-making.

    NickyWashida: I agree. Countries lending advice and help to other countries is nothing new and could go a long way towards helping to solve various problems. In this case, U.S. law enforcement has had some degree of success in dealing with riots and could lend some much needed help in this area. The same when Japan lends help and advice in earthquake and disaster relief and prevention to other countries, and vice versa when foreign CEOs come to Japan to help turn around Japanese companies.

  • -2

    Lizz

    It would be interesting if the OECD report breaks down differences in social mobility by region (liberal/ conservative, industrial/rural) My prediction would be that what drags down social mobility in the US is largely the disastrous system of education in downtown urban areas in states with liberal leadership. Republican run conservati­ve states or cities should have higher social mobility.

    Basically wealth is not a zero sum game. It is created. Redistribute it from the producers, to the parasites, and you can destroy it, too.The basis of wealth is work. If everyone works hard at producing goods and services, wealth increases. If everyone works hard at suing people, giving handouts, and redistributing wealth, rather than producing it, wealth diminishes.

    Recessions come when limited resources (land, labor and capital) are poorly allocated in the economy. Real growth (not the credit expansion kind) occur when those limited resources are allocated in a more efficient way (less resources are consumed to produce more goods). You can indeed increase wealth by increasing productivity and decreasing waste.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    Hi Hatsoff. Thanks for the post.

    I wish there was a simple answer, but we don't live in simple times. Poverty is relative, so is social and political disaffection. Equally there are other social and economic factors that drive how people feel about society.

    In the UK and in the US there are classes of people, who by global standards, are wealthy, well fed and safe. Yet by relative standards in their home countries are left outside the prosperity and social empowerment.

    I grew up in a safe working class neighborhood where all the men worked hard and families tried to do better by their kids. Yet from the time I was small layoffs, pay freezes, lack of upward mobility left most of these families in decline, losing ground year on year.

    Now few can afford college for their kids, crime has come to the depressed neighborhoods and once quaint little homes are now neighbors to undesirable people.

    I am sure in these areas most people are well intentioned, but the areas are often brought down by a criminal few. This raises frustration and anger giving way to wider spread disaffection towards the state.

    So I do think that poverty and social issues need to be looked at in the complex light of reality that they exist in.

  • 2

    tkoind2

    Oracle. I did not say you have to do nothing about the violence. Obviously you need to enforce the law to the best of your ability. But you also need to be sensitive in how you do so as to not create new catalysts of violence.

    It is a fine line, but cities walk that line every day world wide.

    Short term you have to do all you can to reach out to those who will listen in these communities. ONLY with local partnership can you even hope to contain the problem. And you MUST avoid isolating the community as it will alienate allies to the state who exist there.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    Proxy thank you for taking on Breit.... for his posts.

  • -1

    tkoind2

    Breit... LIbertarian is a wide ranging word. It can mean a form of moderate independent in US politics. But it can also represent a fringe of the right who abscond with the word to mask otherwise very right wing points of view. I think the body of criticism of that economist and his following speak for themselves. These are reactionaries and conservative "libertarians" with a clear anti-left and anti-liberal agenda.

    So I stand by my indictment of his views as being strongly right in base nature and very much outside the mainstream in economics and politics.

  • 1

    tkoind2

    Lizz "It is created. Redistribute it from the producers, to the parasites, and you can destroy it, too.The basis of wealth is work. If everyone works hard at producing goods and services, wealth increases."

    This may have been true in the Industrial growth age of the US, but it is certainly not the case today.

    Your argument assumes that there is viable work for every person who wishes to work. But there isn't with a 10% plus unemployment rate in the US and much of Europe, many who want to work and contribute and grow your definition of wealth cannot.

    Then there is underemployment. People who work hard at several jobs and yet remain in poverty. They are not gaining ground or wealth.

    It is utter nonsense that labor results in wealth in a system designed to concentrate wealth in the already wealthy communities. It is utter propaganda and illusion that the average low or middle class worker will accumulate wealth from working. On the contrary, most workers are losing ground year on year, while the wealthy are becoming increasingly and obscenely rich.

    And these "parasites" you refer to are increasingly normal, formerly middle class people who have had their jobs shipped off to cheaper labor markets.

    I am sick to death of the rightwing denial that working people all over the first world are losing ground while the rich get richer. We have a world based upon greed that harms every working class and poor person on the planet and it needs to stop!

  • -1

    Lizz

    I am not denying the wealth of the world is more concentrated now than before the recession. 400 Americans control more of the America's wealth than the bottom 150 million. The top 1% control more wealth than the bottom 90% etc. Those are not the statistics a functioning Democracy. they are the statistics of a Plutocracy. I also believe that Obama is taking what is a long-term structural problem of globalization to help engineer the collapse of the American economy.

    No one is arguing we don't need an overall correction of the imbalance between wealth production and wealth redistribution. It is not an not ideological preference or game anymore. Believe me, I understand that 90% of Americans are getting crushed. My own job as a public librarian is on the line. This entire problem of budget shortfalls and a shrinking tax base comes to us because of the private sector.

    And having more people riding upon than pulling the wagon is not the answer. That needs to reverse if we are to survive. But the fat has to be pruned back sensibly. Not just paying for entitlements. Lift suffocating regulations and no more massive capital injections into Fannie Mae. Massive bailouts of Wall Street megabanks and legacy auto manufacturers...even saving large Chinese insurers like AIG etc.

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    proxy contradicts himself

    Flattening" society" has worked pretty good in the Nordic countries, Canada and Australia which all rank high in social mobility.

  • 1

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind

    These are reactionaries and conservative "libertarians" with a clear anti-left and anti-liberal agenda.

    You make me laugh. Mises was deliberately marginalized by mainstream left and right.

  • 0

    Lizz

    "Your argument assumes that there is viable work for every person who wishes to work. But there isn't with a 10% plus unemployment rate in the US and much of Europe, many who want to work and contribute and grow your definition of wealth cannot."

    Borrowing endless amounts of money and consuming massive amounts of wealth with that borrowed money is a road that leads to economic oblivion. An economy that consumes far more wealth than it produces is a system designed to fail. Like I said, the only way to have a healthy economy in the long run is to create wealth. America cannot create wealth if our industrial base is being absolutely destroyed. China uses every trick in the book to win trade battles which cannot go on forever, but the end result is still millions of high paying jobs are being lost and the ability of America to create wealth is being compromised. The only reality no one wants to admit that it has slid past a recession into a depression; one that will last for years before we come out of it, if we ever do.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    tkoind2: I am sick to death of the rightwing denial that working people all over the first world are losing ground while the rich get richer. We have a world based upon greed that harms every working class and poor person on the planet and it needs to stop!

    Back to the British riots...

    Would you be against arresting any of the people who broke laws during the riots? For example if you had positive identification of a looter through photo of video evidence, do you think that person should be arrested and charged with a crime?

  • 0

    bass4funk

    But advice should be welcome at this stage, even if it is from an American. Even if his advice is bad, sometimes it takes someone giving bad advice to realize just how much the answer lies in the opposite direction.

    The advice wouldn't be bad, it just might be something the British need to seriously tackle the problem. What's bad is that, they allowed to city to be hijacked like that in the first place.

    "Flattening" society" has worked pretty good in the Nordic countries, Canada and Australia which all rank high in social mobility.

    Why is it that people always want to equate these smaller countries with the U.S.? We can go over the pros and cons to that, but the U.S. has 300 million plus compared to these countries that have a much smaller population, also factor in social economic problems that we are having and to mention these countries are quasi-socialist and pay huge amounts of entitlements. It just wouldn't work in the U.S.! This liberal dream of comparing or making the U.S. into Europe is what's exactly driving us over the cliff! Something that the current occupier of the WH doesn't seem to understand and NEVER will!

    It seems to me that both in the UK and US they make a big deal celebrating somebody who has "pulled themselves up by their bootstraps" as it is pretty rare for people born into the lower end of the social scale to succeed but iy is not newsworthy in other countries with much higher social mobility.

    Do I hear "Karl Marx?" So you are saying we should just start being exactly like these countries and all of our woes and problems will go away just like that?! The problem is, if you look at the last 3 years in the states where all 3 branches were controlled by liberals, what was the result? Am I saying that conservatives have 100% all the right answers, NO, but when you interfere with small business and expand the government and spend like it's water, you are breeding more dependance and that leads to more siphoning of money and raping of the country. Self-reliance is the only way. Sure, give people the tools they need to help themselves, there should be more opportunities and access to educational and skill development, can everyone become independent, perhaps not, but this notion that we can make an equal, utopia society where fairness will rule supreme is just looney all the way. You think in any of the these countries you mentioned that everyone is equal? No way. Everyone deserves the right to attain financial freedom, but you cannot achieve that with government intervention. Government dependency is the cancer of any modern advancing society and stifles growth and real prosperity.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    @tkoind2 - thanks for the response. Yes, we have to keep in mind that these rioters, whilst many, are still a minority in society. "Undesirables", be they rioters, gangs or problem neighbours, have a disproportionate ability to cause trouble. On the ground, I think communities must also be prepared to vocalise their disapproval of troublemakers in their midst. They can't expect the police to do everything and hide behind their curtains.

    What I'm also seeing is people not taking the opportunities presented to them - the free education and so on. A lot of the problem is rooted in attitude, not poverty. For example, I remember way back when we took in the Vietnamese boat people and refugees from Uganda. These people arrived with literally nothing in their pockets, yet outperformed many indigenous pupils in school. I'm willing to bet it's the same today in many cases. I think the government's biggest challenge will be to change attitudes. We could give many of these people a million pounds and many would still continue with their anti-social behaviour. No simple answers. Just thinking out loud here.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    Superlib. No I am not against arresting people. I am not against charging people for crimes. These are sensible and prudent measures. Nor am I against arresting people who were found to have committed crimes. I am not at all for criminal behavior. I personally subscribe to Martin Luther King's approach to social uprising. But sadly his lessons have been lost in our much more selfish and violent age.

    Hatsoff. I do think attitude is a key issue here as well. After so long a period of feeling locked out, it won't be easy to gain trust or cool anger. But it has to start somewhere.

    It isn't good enough to just have programs that treat symptoms. We have to have programs that have the opportunity to yield real results. Education, for example, must begin early for children and offer strong pathways to higher eduction opportunities. But this will only work if students are safe, taught by competent teachers and given the resources to assure that home life does not disrupt learning, as is often the case.

    For adults we need more means of training people to do work that will help break the poverty cycle. This must include opportunties for retraining and return to education for older people as well.

    Many have pointed out that otherwise middle class people are involved here too. I believe that they are the class that has felt the increasing worry and fear over the economy in a very unique way. This community has higher expectations but has seen job loss, decreased opportunities and income and few means of change. We also have to have programs to help people in these classes retool to take new career and work paths. Especially since this class most often is the one most eager to work and learn.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    Lizz. I don't support the kind of debt and spending that you refer to either. But the problem you describe here is more a middle class issue than a poor one. The poor have had little access to credit all along. It is simply not the case that this class has been driving up debt.

    Now some of the middle class may have descended into the poor classes over the past few years taking their debt with them. But the majority of poor just have not had access to credit to contribute to this problem. It is clearly the middle classes that are the issue there.

    I will be the first to support your contention that we have, or are on the brink of a depression. No one wants to use that word just yet for fear of where it will lead.

    Roosevelt got it right in the 30's with programs to put people to work. This stimulates demand and also rebuilds the labor classes. The US and UK both need to consider this option. And consider the investment one that will pay off over time. It can begin with labor for infrastructure projects (roads, bridges, schools etc...) but it must also extend to programs to re-educated workers who have seen their jobs leave or diminish so that they can again become strong contributors to society.

    Train more teachers and make salaries viable. Train more technical people especially in areas of energy and sustainability both industries that the US and UK could be strong leaders in. There are so many areas that working people could be led to working in that would benefit these nations. But we have to be willing to invest in programs to enable them to do so.

    More is required, but I firmly believe in the concept of a New, New Deal and in social investment to assure a viable labor class in these countries.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    bass4funk. This thread is primarily about the UK. I am sure the referrences to other European countries are not only appropriate but in line with the discussion. Afterall the entire world is not focused on the US alone. There are other nations struggling with these issues.

    "Do I hear "Karl Marx?" " I cannot address what voices you may be hearing, but it is pretty clear that not a single person other than you has made any reference to Marx.

    " Self-reliance is the only way." Sure, but only to a point. People living in communities where there are no jobs, no opportunties to relocate and no prospects for the future are not empowered to achieve your utopian vision of "self reliance." Look at history, during the great depression legions of "self reliant" farmers, industrial workers and laborers lost their jobs. Most wanted to work and did all they could to find work. Including migrating around the country in search of work. But there was none to be had. And they lacked money to kick off new projects in a depression economy.

    The same is true today of many communities who have lost jobs to overseas, seen businesses close and the availability of seed money to kick off new projects unavailable.

    So exactly how do you, an obviously middle class and economically secure person, envision that these legions of workers just trust upon "self reliance" alone to invent jobs and new economies. Your thinking here lacks any grounding in reality and sounds far more like a right wing propaganda film. No jobs = No jobs = poverty. How exactly, I yes I do expect you to spell it out in detail, are these people supposed to be self reliant and invent new economies for their communtiies? I bet you could not do it if you lost your means of support.

  • -1

    tkoind2

    Mises and his dogmatic, often hateful ideas was marginalized because he was extreme to both spectrums. We are better off for having that kind of hateful, tempermental thinking put in the isolation corner where it belongs!

  • 0

    bass4funk

    This is not the great depression.

    People living in communities where there are no jobs, no opportunties to relocate and no prospects for the future are not empowered to achieve your utopian vision of "self reliance."

    I feel for these people, so if the conservative way is not advisable to help root out poverty or to help these people out of their impoverished state, then how? Doesn't seem like this admin. and all the of there liberal policies have helped in the slightest to elevate these people, as a matter of fact, his policies made things worse!

  • 0

    tkoind2

    bass4funk. Please focus on the world issue and no only on the US. There are actually considerations outside your borders.

    "This is not the great depression." Really? How sure are you about that? Since 2008 we have been riding on the edge of a second, and possibly more catestrophic depression. One that we have not yet averted. So you may want to hold back on that statement until things settle down a bit.

    I am happy that you "feel" for these people, but that will not put them to work. Investment of money by governments in education, retraining, job creation and internal investment will put them back to work. But first we have to overcome the backwards thinking of people who feel that such investment is charity. When in reality is it a necessary social investment to secure the future of our nations.

    As for US politics. To be honest I am disgusted by both the parties in the US. They excell at infighting and dogma and utterly fail to achieve anything meaningful. The polarization of politics in America is your downfall, one that has become increasingly dangerous to our economic future and that of the world.

  • 0

    bass4funk

    I AM talking about the world in general. So then which European political party is the best? Which party serves the people well? Which party is the ideal party in Europe. Don't go on a rant about Canada, Australia, Sweden or Norway. At least in our system, we don't have to worry about a party electing a PM when we can just vote for the individual. The point is, the power in the U.S. is with the people and the voters, don't do a good job, you'll be replaced. But back to the topic of Zero tolerance, just heard news that Cameron backed off on inviting Bratton. A shame indeed. Looks like the Brits will have to always submit to these scums in future skirmishes. Sad that when a country falls under the lawlessness of thugs and they either can't or are incapable of handling them. Very sad.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    bass4funk. what is this need you have to put things in neat little boxes? What makes you assume I have any party in mind in Europe any more than I do in the US?

    As far as I am concerned there is no "ideal party" out there waiting to save humanity. And I sincerely doubt there ever will be one. In any case party is not really the issue here is it? Are we forced to choose up sides and create our opposition? This kind of us/them vision has not worked so far, so what would inspire anyone to place hope in it going forward?

    What the world needs are leaders willing to put aside their own ambitions and financial desires to serve the people honestly and fully. What the world needs are political systems focused upon the majority of people and not just serving the interests of the wealthy and powerful. This is the change that is needed. Not a change to a different party.

    "the power in the U.S. is with the people and the voters," Nonsense! The people only get to choose from the few options that have the money and influence to gain office. We do not have true peer representation in America. You don't even elect the president. The EC does. You have been reading too much of your own propaganda.

    "don't do a good job, you'll be replaced." Again mostly fantacy here. Though to some extent recently we swap people out so quickly that nothing gets done.

  • 0

    tkoind2

    "Sad that when a country falls under the lawlessness of thugs..." Come on, really the UK is under the influence and control of lawlessness and thugs? There were a few isolated uprisings last week. Were they bad? Sure. Do they demonstrate that the government of the UK is not in control? Of course not. That is sensationalistic BS!

    Come on, stay with me in the real world here. The government is in control of the UK and do not need some cop from the US to sort out their problems. They can and will handle the problem. And the UK world will go on turning without US help.

  • 0

    Oracle

    tkoind2Aug. 15, 2011 - 11:09PM JST

    I did not say you have to do nothing about the violence.

    But you are saying nothing new about what to do about it.

    The usual tactics are not working. That is the whole problem!

  • 0

    Lizz

    "Roosevelt got it right in the 30's with programs to put people to work. This stimulates demand and also rebuilds the labor classes. The US and UK both need to consider this option. And consider the investment one that will pay off over time. It can begin with labor for infrastructure projects (roads, bridges, schools etc...) but it must also extend to programs to re-educated workers who have seen their jobs leave or diminish so that they can again become strong contributors to society."

    True, the unemployment rate did improve under the New Deal programs. I’m sure many workers actually appreciated working instead of looking for handouts even if it was government work. Having a few bucks for food gave people a sense of dignity instead of soup lines. What it didn't achieve was to spur a sustainable economic model of growth. The GDP in fact only improved when the programs were in effect. When the government started cutting back and trying to balance its budget, growth took a nose dive.

    Following a similarly failed pattern, between the Federal Reserve and the Obama regime, over 5 trillion has already been spent trying to "stimulate" the economy since 2009. Money we didn't have to begin with. It has had little impact on the U.S. economy besides keeping the GDP and markets artificially high, weakening the dollar and helping U.S. exports. $2 trillion in quantative easing has gone to financiers, Wall Street bankers and to repay the base that elected the president, but done little to loosen credit and boost the economy.

    Government spending to stimulate a stagnant, high unemployment economy is exactly the wrong medicine.

  • 0

    Lizz

    "I am happy that you "feel" for these people, but that will not put them to work. Investment of money by governments in education, retraining, job creation and internal investment will put them back to work. But first we have to overcome the backwards thinking of people who feel that such investment is charity. When in reality is it a necessary social investment to secure the future of our nations.

    As for US politics. To be honest I am disgusted by both the parties in the US. They excell at infighting and dogma and utterly fail to achieve anything meaningful. The polarization of politics in America is your downfall, one that has become increasingly dangerous to our economic future and that of the world."

    We need a president who exudes confidence and moderation and understands the limitations of government intervention. The recession officially ended six months into the Obama presidency. Unemployment, however, has worsened, going from 7.8 percent in January 2009 to 9.1 percent last month. Obama's policies made the economy worse than it needed to be and because of that (reckless spending, avalanche of regulations, healthcare debacle), the downturn lasted longer than it might have under another president.

    What is imperative is that next time Americans garner more information than a few soundbites to base their votes on.

  • 0

    TigermothII

    There is always talk about the plight of the poor and society's failure to provide for them, and very little talk about those that are poor doing something to better their own situation. Hence the reason we have the welfare or supported class and the inherent failures this breeds. Mom and dad (if both are even are even around) get government help through some social program. They have a kid/kids - which they should not. The kids are born into poverty to parents who don't care. They see their situation as hopeless, move to crime, perhaps a gang - generally get into drugs and trouble. They end up on public assistance, then perpetuate the whole process.

    Those (usually) on the left, such as tkoind2, always espouse that more must be done for these disaffected individuals. The assumption is always that the rich get richer, and the poor stay where they are, and where the rest of society wants them to be. Human compassion is a noble thing, and I can't fault you for those beliefs. But it is a cycle that either they have fed themselves into, or maybe unwittingly fell into, and frankly the only way out is through their own perseverance, character and courage - which seems almost non-existent. For example, go into a school system where a large part of the student population are in gangs. Tell them that you will tutor them and help them to succeed in school. Tell them that you will secure student loans or grants to get them through, that they can better their lives and get out of poverty. See how many takers you have, or how long you live for that matter.

    And you talk of the 'anti-immigration' right wing nazis. For certainly those against immigration are right wing haters of anyone with a foreign tongue. But how many immigrants come to say Britain as example with a bonafide skill set that will make them employable and not just feed them into the system of the above-mentioned on public assistance? And how much are those that do work, do take social and moral responsibilities for their own existence and behaviors - and those of the children they choose to have (or not have if they cannot afford them) supposed to put up with and pay into when they find their own salaries barely adequate?

    Aside from all that, the riots in Britain have very little if nothing to do with class inequality and everything to do with criminals and uncontrolled youth. Equating this to a genuine social revolution is insulting at best.

    England ain't America. Zero tollerance alienates society even more, which is the root cause of the problem. As for blaming gangs, they exist in Britain, but they are totally different to US gangs.

    Oh give them time to organize properly and they will be, and then you'll be begging for whatever help/advice you can get.

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    tkoind

    Mises and his dogmatic, often hateful ideas was marginalized because he was extreme to both spectrums.

    What a hilarious statement.

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    British gangs ape American 'gangstas' . Bringing in an American cop might be helpful.

  • 0

    zichi

    from Aug 6, the day of the outbreak of the riots I was taken ill with heat stroke and remained in my bed for 6 days, so It was all something of a surprise to discover the Brit riots had taken place. I guess corrupt bankers, bend politicians who fiddle their expense claims, corrupt businesses which steal our money or the rich who do their best to avoid paying taxes, (a crime against the society) are all examples of role models. No wonder there were riots which started because a young black kid was shot dead by the cops.

  • 0

    BreitbartVictorious

    The Telegraph has a good summation of what these riots meant -

    " The Left has gone into overdrive in its attempts to rewrite the history of the riots, but the public knows the truth... There is no national debate about the epidemic of riots and looting that spread through our cities like a bush fire. Out there in the real world, where people go about the normal business of life, there is no sign of the heated argument that the media is so determined to air."

    "UK riots: The end of the liberals' great moral delusion"

    Janet Daley

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