Bush vows to take 'message of freedom' to Beijing

Wednesday 30th July, 07:39 AM JST

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Betzee at 01:14 PM JST - 31st July

China has always been forced to change anything and China will have to be forced on this issue as well by first off getting out of hock with them ,

The Chinese are well aware democracies typically run deficits since elected officials need to spend lavishly on their constituents to get reelected. It's an uphill battle for those who, like, tell the voters the truth...
TonyUS at 03:07 PM JST - 31st July

Betzee, not all run deficits, just the liars and decietful ones that take advantage of their position and find themselves in a position to get favors and more favors (money) for their friends and bussiness partners and forgetting what they were doing there in the first place and throwing aside national interests.

Just as Clinton cleaned up the years of the Bushes and Reagan's trillion dollar deficits. It can be again. Not all are as you describe.
TonyUS at 03:16 PM JST - 31st July

The Chinese are well aware democracies typically run deficits since elected officials need to spend lavishly on their constituents to get reelected. It's an uphill battle for those who, like, tell the voters the truth...

These guys are empowered by themselves and do not see the public as the source of the future, only the source of carrying out these elite wishes that do not want to let go of their hold of power and the hold over their servents..

This is why China is seen as so different than developed countries. Also why China can not be trusted because they have no checks and balances like democracies. They do as the few in power wants to do, or they don;t do as they promise. Their is nothing there for them to pay any consequences for their lies, deciet, and broken promises. So it is a country that can not be trusted.They are of a government controlled society.

That is where human rights and freedom comes into play, when the people are allowed to assemble and voice their views and opposition, which China lacks as a society.
apecNetworks at 06:23 PM JST - 31st July

I'm in a strange position, but what does, “The president assured them that he will carry the message of freedom", mean? The US have warrant less wiretaps, NSA's Echelon, censorship squads, large trucks filled w/ state of the art electronic transmitters, etc.... What is "freedom and democracy" if the definition set forth in the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights is not the Supreme law? Given what I have gone through, "freedom and democracy" seems to be used like a sales campaign. It is not being practiced, but it's a great argument.
apecNetworks at 06:36 PM JST - 31st July

I may be one voice in the wind, but I have friends in the Asia Pacific. You know, they say, "the pen (keyboard) is mightier than the sword".
Betzee at 08:39 PM JST - 31st July

Betzee, not all run deficits, just the liars and decietful ones that take advantage of their position and find themselves in a position to get favors and more favors (money) for their friends and bussiness partners and forgetting what they were doing there in the first place and throwing aside national interests.

The Chinese were looking at Taiwan when they saw the link. Under authoritarian rule there was minimal spending on social services (and a huge outlay on national defense which was shrouded in secrecy).

Democratization meant a lot of new funding for non-military needs. Public investment in Taiwan shot up. It was aimed not at the national good but bringing money into the district, like the infamous "bridge to nowhere," an earmark that got through the US Congress.

Of course non-democracies can run up huge debt too (and many have). But it's an occupational hazard of democracies, despite public oversight, given the reelection imperatives of those who serve.
Eulji_Mundeok at 10:09 PM JST - 31st July

As for Harry Wu, his imprisonment in China in 1998 caused a reassessment within the community where he lives (Silicon Valley) over our policy of allowing anyone to apply for a US passport after five years of permanent residence.

Because tweaking American immigration policy is more important than say, condemning organ extraction from live prisoners in slave labour camps.

The Chinese are well aware democracies typically run deficits since elected officials need to spend lavishly on their constituents to get reelected.

...but apparently unaware of the need for basic infrastructure, clean drinking water, and (my personal favorite) the introduction of building codes for school buildings.

It's an uphill battle for those who, like, tell the voters the truth...

Because you just know that, like, China's ruling CCP is totally overflowing with "truthiness"...

like the infamous "bridge to nowhere," an earmark that got through the US Congress.

Oh, you mean that bridge in Alaska that leads to the only airport in the region? Nope, don't need that.

Some Chinese have looked at the British model where the House of Lords is appointed. While that may sound elitist

(because it is- a bit),

like our founding fathers they don't trust the common man to make good choices at the ballot box.

So let's go beyond the Electoral College for presidential elections and make a full transition to the Middle Ages. How good of you to remind people of the ultimate goal of the International Left- an appointed Politburo.
Betzee at 10:33 PM JST - 31st July

Because tweaking American immigration policy is more important than say, condemning organ extraction from live prisoners in slave labour camps.

It fact it was other naturalized citizens who wondered whether becoming an American citizen was anything more than a get out of jail card free to Harry Wu (who's widely viewed as an egomaniac within China).

The Chinese have a much more sophisticated understanding of democracy than they did in 1989. They look at leaders like Hugo Chavez who have come to power via the ballot box and say, "No way, Jose." They are grappling with some of the same questions our founding fathers did. Do you have a problem with that?
Betzee at 10:41 PM JST - 31st July

How good of you to remind people of the ultimate goal of the International Left- an appointed Politburo.

You don't follow trends in China too well do you? They've been moving toward free-market authoritarianism for quite a few years now.
Eulji_Mundeok at 06:22 PM JST - 2nd August

It fact it was other naturalized citizens who wondered whether becoming an American citizen was anything more than a get out of jail card free to Harry Wu (who's widely viewed as an egomaniac within China).

With regards to the PRC's Laogai/education-through-labor system, I share Harry Wu's (and US House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's) "narcissism". Also, if Chinese Americans truly feel this way about Harry Wu, perhaps it's not Mr. Wu who's still loyal to the PRC as the "mother country".

You don't follow trends in China too well do you? They've been moving toward free-market authoritarianism for quite a few years now.

Quite right- the PRC's Poliburo has been "moving toward [semi-]free-market authoritarianism for quite a few years now." And your point is...?

They are grappling with some of the same questions our founding fathers did. Do you have a problem with that?

Just that your analogy is off a bit- clearly, the people who are "grappling with some of the same questions your Founding Fathers (TM) did" are none other than the 1979 Iranian Revolutionaries and Al Qaeda in Iraq.
Betzee at 09:25 AM JST - 3rd August

I'm not sure how aware you are of the lively intellectual debate going on inside China about the future of their country. In late 1994 a book entitled Looking at China Through the Third Eye was published in Beijing. It had a short shelf life because it painted a bleak portrait of the future owing to the economic reforms which had created "volcanic" forces of disparity and surplus labor that could explode in rebellion. (It's written in a Marxist style since the author was trained to interpret the world that way). One can certainly find fault with it while acknowledging it was a refreshing read.

So uncannily similar was it to a book which came out the same year by Robert Kaplan, who'd traveled extensively in Africa and Central Asia, entitled The Coming Anarchy which details "how scarcity, crime, overpopulation, tribalism, and disease are rapidly destroying the social fabric of our planet" that I keep them next to each other on my bookshelf.

This is not a debate which people like Harry Wu participate in; it's mainland Chinese who view him as arrogant. And it was his naturalized citizen neighbors in Silicon Valley, home to many educated immigrants who hail from all over the world who, as he was feted as a freedom fighter by the American media, quietly questioned whether it was appropriate for someone to become a US citizen when his commitment was clearly to another country.

Simply to respond "Well he's doing all this great work so it's OK" would not have been a satisfactory answer to them, taxpayers who see themselves footing the bill for all the diplomatic time and energy spent to get him out.
Eulji_Mundeok at 08:39 PM JST - 3rd August

Clearly, it was a mistake for the West to engage China in the first place and assist provincial governments in their local oppression, though post-Cultural Revolution it probably seemed like a good idea at the time. Needless to say, your Great Leap Forward solution to all of China's ills is a bit creepy...

So uncannily similar was it to a book which came out the same year by Robert Kaplan, who'd traveled extensively in Africa and Central Asia, entitled The Coming Anarchy which details "how scarcity, crime, overpopulation, tribalism, and disease are rapidly destroying the social fabric of our planet" that I keep them next to each other on my bookshelf.

I don't see your Ralph Nader participating in the debate of how "scarcity, crime, overpopulation [here comes that support for state-coerced late-term abortions!], tribalism, and disease are rapidly destroying the social fabric of our planet"...should Mr. Nader be arrested and have his organs extracted for some sick Canadian somewhere?

And it was his naturalized citizen neighbors in Silicon Valley, home to many educated immigrants who hail from all over the world who, as he was feted as a freedom fighter by the American media, quietly questioned whether it was appropriate for someone to become a US citizen when his commitment was clearly to another country.

Sorry Betzee, you'll have to provide us the link to your Salon Media source on this one.
Betzee at 10:20 PM JST - 3rd August

I'm simply an observer to what's going on in China. And I accept that all ideas, however offensive they may be to the sensibilities of others, have a right to a fair hearing. You seem to prefer imposing political correctness to stifle the debate, however.
Eulji_Mundeok at 06:58 PM JST - 4th August

You seem to prefer imposing political correctness to stifle the debate, however.

...which is a good indication of just how enclosed your bubble is, Betzee. You just can't take criticism of the laogai camps or Maoism without feeling "stifled"...
TonyUS at 02:12 PM JST - 6th August

betzee , are you from China, or just love the country. Any issue on China you take the China side even thoughh it is a country controlled by suppression of its people.. I do not care about its syle economy because the reason being is the ability to build its power it has always sacrficed all for to get,should I mention 10's of millions in the early 60's and 10's of thousands today that do not obide or tag along on the rule by suppression that end up in political reform camps,house arrests, and what ever.. this is the easy way for them to finally see the gains in world power and domination they have always dreamed of aquiring but the challenge is to the stability of their control on power within the country as they are forced on issues to continue their gains of being a world power which is why reports state the heavier clamp down on social freedoms to contain their grip of power.