Carter visits Cuba amid dispute over contractor
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0
yabits
Few American government agencies have the spotted record as does the US Agency for International Development (USAID). While some may believe that the agency exists purely for the good of the people of other nations, the reality is that its purpose is to further US foreign policy goals -- first and foremost.
My position in the US military enabled me to read message traffic coming from operatives based in a number of developing nations. One frequent topic was elections going on in the country and how "aid" was being used to improve the chances of those whom the U.S. wanted to see attain or hold power.
Gross entered Cuba under false pretenses. He got permission to visit the country as a tourist, and then started distributing personal communications technology, namely satellite phones, in violation of Cuban law. Gross falsified his immigration form, failing to register as an agent of a foreign government.
Definitely aimed at undermining it, or any government seen as not in accordance with U.S. dictates.
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Mangaman
Got to concur with yabits.
I also got to praise Carter. The man is tireless.
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manfromamerica
Good!
Why not?
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Badsey
It seems the US has been trying to destabilize many nations the last few years. The Pakastan CIA contractor with the nuclear materials being the most troubling.
I wonder what President Obama has to say about this --> or is he to busy starting civil war in Libya to answer.
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yabits
It's a win-win for the militarists. Either the nation toes the American line, or we create an enemy, justifying additional defense spending.
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SuperLib
From the USAID.gov website:
"U.S. foreign assistance has always had the twofold purpose of furthering America's foreign policy interests in expanding democracy and free markets while improving the lives of the citizens of the developing world."
Not much of a secret if you ask me.
But does it really matter? If the aid benefits someone then they will be grateful. If it works against someone then they won't be grateful. They couldn't care less about American foreign policy. If you want to talk about real injustice, well, you could always talk about Cuba herself, but my guess is that would just be boring. Better to talk about some guy bringing internet equipment. Oh, the injustice!
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yabits
I suppose it's better when the realization hits that "some guy" is said contractor at the center of the dispute.
Speaking of the high-tech satellite phones that Gross was illegally distributing -- how did he get them into the country in the first place? Via a USAID submarine? He obviously had some outside support.
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Lieberman2012
"Cuba calls Gross a mercenary working on a program paid for by Washington that aimed to bring down Cuba’s socialist system"
"Bring it down," as in even further?Cubans risk life and limb to escape from the place.
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Sarge
"President Raul Castro"
Did he get a majority of popular votes?
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SuperLib
A USAID submarine is certainly a sexy choice, but why not just research it yourself? A simple internet search for "satellite phones illegal in Cuba" should give you an answer.
It probably won't make much of a different either way. You seem more than happy to use Cuba's definition of "criminal" so at this point you're really just a spokesperson for the Cuban government. Most people would question the policy of banning satellite phones or providing internet access, but you seem content with movie-like submarines and falsified immigration papers.
Oh, when will the USAID crimes against Cuba ever end?
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yabits
Not making much sense there. No way.
Emotions have nothing to do with it, and projecting emotions onto others is a sign of immaturity.
The fact is that it is the pervue of nations to make and enforce laws, and Cuba's laws in this regard are so obvious that Gross clearly showed the intent to violate them.
That conclusion is very funny.
Questioning the policy is one thing. Going out of one's way to intentionally violate it is another. Of course, a sensible person would realize that every anti-Cuban-government statement made on the issue would bolster the regime's rationale for its current policy.
By one criminal at a time, presumably. It's evident that Cuba has one less criminal to worry about. The crimes certainly won't end with the overthrow of Cuban communism; hundreds of thousands of people have been victimized by USAID policies in the Western Hemisphere in countries that are "democracies." (See USAID support for forced sterilization programs targeting indigenous natives in Peru, for one example.)
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SuperLib
I suspect that you're against the laws in Cuba but you can't speak out against them because you're afraid it might weaken your crusade against USAID. Any further posts I make will simply be a platform for you to continue with your agenda, so please consider this response to you as a gift.
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manfromamerica
suuuure, and I'm glad you're being so public about it. Did you contact Wikileaks yet?
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Mangaman
I have a feeling that, on any other Sunday, SuperLib would say "Do the crime, do the time."
Let Cuban rebels do their own espionage. I am no fan of the Castro regime, but actions like this only feed it. The Cubans have to take back their own country. Give dissident Cubans some old subs and satellite phones if you must, but having spies running around getting caught just gives them effective rhetoric against the U.S.
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yabits
I am against autocracies and dictatorships in all varieties. This particular topic, however, deals with the dispute over a contractor connected with USAID -- whose foolish actions will only serve to make things worse for people, not better.
I suspect that the Wikileaks phenomenon will spell the eventual death or breakup of every large organization which depends upon secrecy to conduct themselves in an unethical or immoral manner -- especially if that conduct is contrary to the values they espouse. For that, I say "good on them."
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SuperLib
That sounds great.
I think the OP was calling into question your statement that you "read message traffic coming from operatives based in a number of developing nations." I found that difficult to believe myself since I know we spoke a little while ago about CIA links to aid agencies and no where did you mention your past dealings with "operatives". Instead you chose to post some weak links from stories that were decades old. Seemed like a pretty good time to whip out the old "personal experience" angle, but I guess you weren't in the mood.
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yabits
You find it difficult to believe that operatives send messages? Or that those messages weren't subject to screening -- along with other classified traffic -- over military/diplomatic channels, especially during the Vietnam War era, when satellites (largely) were not used?
That's fine.
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manfromamerica
Difficult to believe that you have any personal experience in this area.
Carter is irrelevant, it's a shame that the AP even gives him any space.
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SuperLib
Yep, spot on. Most people might have read my post and seen it as me calling into question your "first hand knowledge"...but you were able to skillfully navigate though that and hit my point directly: I'm claiming that foreign operatives don't send messages. Please, by all means, elaborate....as if we (or you) had a choice in where your one-track mind was headed anyway...
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yabits
LOL! OK.
I'm certainly glad Wikileaks has come around. Prior to that, decent and honest people -- truth-seekers -- had to depend upon what occasionally slipped out of the tent. Like the CIA's efforts to undermine the Whitlam government in Australia (for which the US later admitted and apologized for). Plenty of traffic on that one. Or the missives from Iran printed in Kwitny's book Endless Enemies -- if you can find an unredacted first edition.
You can dismiss my personal experiences if you wish to -- which included many months of cryptographic training in a vault-like building at a base near Vallejo. However, I can't deny my experiences any more than you can yours. In reality, I sense that the animus from some posters springs from the fact that all they have to offer in rebuttal is blind belief in the unvarnished "good-ness" of the U.S.
Heck, manfromamerica, earlier you thought it was a great idea to have the U.S. meddling in the elections of our democratic allies.
You wish.
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manfromamerica
wow... you're like James Bond! most posters here use actual researchable references to back up their facts. The "trust me folks" line is unsupportable, whether or not it is true.
?? Don't know where you imagined that... I believe I always said "it's none of our business"
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yabits
Not quite. In this thread, in response to the comment that "aid" was used to influence elections in other countries, you said "Why Not?"
Doesn't sound like "none of our business" to me.
Hardly. Back before satellites were widely used (late 70s) for military/diplomatic traffic, just about any military installation had a comm facility with HF receivers, demuxers, and the gear to receive, process and decrypt message traffic.
And it makes no difference to me whether you believe it or not. No person can deny what he experienced and witnessed personally. And so, I say "At long last..." to the service provided by Wikileaks. The deniability so precious to jingoists everywhere has become much less plausible as a result.
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SuperLib
Like I said... Everyone here, yourself included, was helpless as to the direction you were headed regardless of the conversation. I could have posted about red elephants and you would have somehow linked that to CIA operations from decades ago that have nothing to do with this specific article. A man who continues with his agenda even when it's been exposed is simply a man who lacks free will.
Generally speaking, yes. But you have a history of posts on Japan Today that can be used as evidence. In a previous conversation about the CIA and aid workers your proof amounted to a couple of very obscure web links that most people questioned as valid evidence. In no way did you mention personal experience receiving messages directly overseas operatives, especially ones directly involving aid. It's illogical to think that you wouldn't use this extremely relevant evidence in past conversations then suddenly bring it into the conversation now. Perhaps you do have military experience. But given the body of evidence, and your side-stepping of direct evidence now, one can easily make the claim that you're not being entirely honest with us.
And if you are being honest with us, then please continue. I'm curious as to your part in helping the CIA do all of the dirty work that you're constantly informing people about.
Moderator: Back on topic please. The subject is Carter's visit to Cuba.
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manfromamerica
yabits, you really like to invent interesting interpretations. And you have a specific beef with USAID.
I always said their business is their business, not ours.
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yabits
The "previous conversation" that I recall was about CIA and obstensible NGO/charitable organizations, using Tom Dooley's espionage work for the US government in Vietnam -- using the "MEDICO" group as a front. References to his activities are only obscure to those who wish to run from the truth.
And you couldn't be more wrong. The article is about the dispute over a contractor who was engaged in espionage work in Cuba on behalf of a US governmental agency. Espionage work that has been taking place for decades. Gross's misdeeds are merely one of hundreds that have been carried out all over the planet by the US government.
My part in helping would have been to remain completely silent about it, or to have engaged in attacks on others for talking about the connections. The emergence of Wikileaks has helped in this effort tremendously, and will continue to help to open the eyes of good and decent people who want to see the bigger picture of the kind of people who sent Alan Gross on his mission to Cuba. There will always be people of bad will who will try to impede that effort.
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yabits
Manfromamerica says: "you really like to invent interesting interpretations"
Really? When responding to the words that USAID was there primarily to further US policy goals which included influencing (read: "meddling in") the elections of foreign nations in order to see "our guys" take power, you said: "Great" and "why not?"
I believe the average, honest reader would interpret those words to mean you were speaking in support of USAID in those activities.
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Lieberman2012
Carter failed.The contractor is still in Cuban custody.But JC says Fidel greeted him like an old friend.
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yabits
Terrific.
A posting of 8/8/2010 proves that statement wrong.
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SuperLib
Of course not. No where did you mention that you received direct messages from field operative from the CIA. In the context of the conversation obviously you would have if it were true. All you're doing now is saying that you believe your own bullshit to a greater extent. That's really the only difference from 8/8 to now.
So do you support Carter's move? You don't really seem to have an opinion either way. As someone who supports this man being in prison I'm assuming you wouldn't support Carter since it goes against your beliefs. Not the beliefs that you are against dictators, but the belief that every country should have the right to decide their own laws. At least if those laws put Americans in prison for doing far less damage than you yourself have admitted to doing.
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yabits
Readers who wish to confirm for themselves will find the reference to access to field reports, a claim which I repeated here as it is true.
If a person who hasn't totally destroyed his integrity posed questions about it, I wouldn't have any problem responding.
LOL! I hardly think screening message traffic on a teletype machine (as part of my job) at a military communications site is doing damage. It should hardly surpise anyone with more than an ounce of understanding that things of a similar nature to the activities that Gross was arrested for in Cuba were certainly part of the mix.
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SuperLib
It's illogical that you'd bring up Dooley first, someone who at best has been accused with unsubstantiated accusations, then follow it up with personal experience only after your first source is challenged.
As for your experience, I can see where this is headed. When making accusations against the US you're someone with direct contact with field agents, someone who participated in the dealings of the CIA and has intimate knowledge of how they work. When your own guilt is called into question you're suddenly someone who is so detached that you don't even feel you bear any responsibility for working with the CIA. So you're playing both sides of the fence....believe me because I have experience but don't accuse of me anything because I really wasn't involved.
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