China objects to Bush's remarks on human rights, religious freedom

Friday 08th August, 04:00 AM JST

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swordfish2502 at 02:14 PM JST - 8th August
Hi tkoind2
1. What I am saying is that every coin has two sides, do not foucu on the negative side of Olympic. I think I can say that most most of Chinese (at least everyone I know) are enjoying olympic.
2. Actually I read a lot critical issures about China everyday, then I read the same issure on Chinese website (sometimes it get blocked -_-), and I believe truth is somewhere between.
3. Don't get personal when you want others to take your advice, there is too much 怨气(hi YangYong,maybe you know the right word for this) in your language.
tkoind2 at 02:25 PM JST - 8th August

The problem is that China is using this opportunity to cement their status quo. And that is why it is important to be involved now and now at some other time. China has said it is expecting this to be a showcase opportunity to demonstrate how unified China is. But the fact is that China is not unified, even within the majority population.

Let's look a the yin and yang shall we?

On the "positive" side we have a great opportunity for athletes from all over the world to gather and compete. It means economic input to Beijing for business there and positive press for China.

On the Yang side, let's look at the issues. There is restricted press freedom for those covering the Olympics. Guests are being monitored for their web activity. And many people are being arrested and detained because Beijing sees them as a threat.

There has been lost income to farmers and other people as resources shift to Beijing. And in many other places people have made involuntary sacrifices with out compensation to make way for the Olympics.

The problem here is that the obvious yang side far outweighs the Yin side. And there are very real and negative consequences for a lot of people that go beyond inconvenience or missing games. It goes to their ability to eat today, to speak freely today, to have freedom today and to practice their universal human rights of religion, speech and personal belief.

So sure there are two sides. No one said there were not. The problem is that one very dark side clearly overshadows the 2 weeks of relative fun a small number of people will enjoy at the heavy expense of so many others.
skipthesong at 03:26 PM JST - 8th August

Did Bush ever think that what is a human rights violation in one country is not taken as a violation in another?
TettoeAung at 03:30 PM JST - 8th August

Interesting to read all the comments. However, we have to ask ourselves 'Whose fault is it that China was given the Olympics knowing that it will not be able to live up to it promises?' To me, it's like asking a prostitute to be faithful by marrying her. Never in its history has China lived up to it's promises, neither to its people, its neighbours nor the international community. It takes more than money to become a reputable world citizen. We wouldn't have to wait that long to see that the disparity between rich and poor will take China down the path of instability. Deng's maxim that 'to be rich is glorious' may be good for the short term but if the issue of equity is not addressed then the glory be hollow without any substance.
swordfish2502 at 03:34 PM JST - 8th August

Hi tkoind2

Yin means shadow, usually referred as negative, while Yang means sunshine, usually referred as positive.

Its too early to tell which side of the olympic overshadow the other. we will see.

PS: we Chinese are pretty unified, thanks for your concern.
tkoind2 at 03:55 PM JST - 8th August

Swordfish2502. "Chinese are prety unified?" I guess this depends upon your definition of Chinese.

See the reality in China is that there are many ethnic groups living there. And even stark divisions within the majority ethnic population in terms of social and economic status. To say that China is pretty unified is to dismiss these differences and the numerous and obvious examples of disunity in China.

As TettorAung pointed out, the path to instability has already been laid. When a society is divided too dramatically along economic lines, sooner or later there will be strife. Which we have seen on and off in rural China for years. Not to mention unrest in areas that expect and wish to have for sovereign control over their destiny.

Your united China is anything but when you look at how key urban areas have prospered while the vast majority of Chinese still labor under very harsh living conditions. And this is, again, before we bring ethnic divisions and disenfrancisement into the discussion.

I'd like to know how you can back the argument of a unified China beyond the propaganda of the ruling party. And I'd like to hear how you can then rationalize the labor, land, farming, ethnic and religious uprisings and tensions that have been in the news and the many more incidents that are not reported.

Define the "we" in your argument. I think it cannot possibly represent the whole of China or even the majority of Chinese.
SushiSake3 at 03:55 PM JST - 8th August

RepublicofTexas - "I don't really love or hate Bush, but I think this time he got it right, bringing attention to China's issues and showing his concerns while keeping politics out of sport and visiting the olympic Games."

I agree with Bush on this one, although in most other issues I think he is a moron :-)
SezWho2 at 05:10 PM JST - 8th August

The fuss about Gauntanamo is this: either human rights are sometimes relative or they are never are. With Guantanamo and elsewhere, the US has taken the position that they are sometimes relative. We do not now get to pretend otherwise.

I think it would be wonderful for the Chinese people to have the right of free assembly, the right to freely criticize their government and the right of access to information free of censorship. While none of those rights are entirely absent in China and while none of them are entirely present in the US, I don't think there is any question that there is a significant gap between the US and China. However, much like Magna Carta rights in England and Civil Rights in the US, I think those rights will be more meaningful and more apppropriate when realized through internal agitation than if jaw-boned from without.

Bush can say whatever he wants of China's rights record. But when he does so he will be speaking of yet another culture about which he knows very little. In demanding the rights mentioned above, Bush will be demanding that the Chinese government unleash the dogs of separatism and, were China to do so overnight, I doubt that either China or the rest of the world could live with the results.

Again, Bush has established that he believes human rights are relative. Just as China must--and probably already has, given our vilification of it for the last 60 years--learn to live with criticism, so must the US. For China, it's old hat. It's a somewhat newer fashion for the US and some US citizens--and I am one--do not care much for the style.
reddragonguy at 07:13 PM JST - 8th August

Bush has no cards to play...he knows it well, the fact is US and western world is demising after his eight years of leaderships and he was atotal failure! But China took great benefits of this period and foundation to become a military super power.... He was jealous, he dont likes it but he couldnt change it! It was his last stands! A leader like him was depised by around the world has nothing to bargain just empty words! What a pity,how come the reputation of America was downgraded to such a low and cheap levels!
skipthesong at 08:42 PM JST - 8th August

China does not need a freedom of religion. They seem to be the only level headed people on the planet with their No Religion stance. Its working and by ridding lands of religion, they knocked out 90% of the reason wars have been fought.

Bush go home. Leave them alone. They don't need religion
Eulji_Mundeok at 12:29 AM JST - 9th August

The only point I want to make before I hit the sack (these opening ceremonies are super tacky and ridiculously long) is that for you people in America:

If you truly want to make efforts to close the detention center at Guantanamo Bay, cease your NSA's domestic wiretapping, etc., more power to you. As long as you lay off the ridiculous hyperbole, I promise not to yell, "Stop what you're doing and look at the much worse conditions in China!!"

In return, I would ask that you respect our efforts in China to stop organ harvesting from live prisoners in laogai slave labour camps, etc. without trying to distract us with your petty election-year politics.

Thank you.
undecidedbout08 at 07:13 AM JST - 9th August

Its working and by ridding lands of religion, they knocked out 90% of the reason wars have been fought.

Communists - in China and Russia foremost - killed 100 million in the name of eradicating traditional religion and replacing it with their odious substitute.
skipthesong at 08:44 AM JST - 9th August

Communists - in China and Russia foremost - killed 100 million in the name of eradicating traditional religion and replacing it with their odious substitute."

Well, don't do it that way.And, I am not implying eradicating it forcibly either. Teach that it is bad and it will go away.
HonestDictator at 08:44 AM JST - 9th August

Jeez skip. Lay off it will ya? Not all the wars are because of religion. Fact is you really shouldn't care as long as the people don't get on your case about what to believe. Let those that wanna believe in something believe and those that don't shouldn't be trying to force their beliefs of not believing in something on others. Hint, look inna mirror.

Freedom of religion is something that China needs to even protect those that choose not to have a religion. As usual the only time it becomes a problem is when someone feels the right to draw blood because of their beliefs. Is belief in money and/or power a religion?
berri_fusion at 11:17 AM JST - 9th August

I agree with HonestDictator, A majortiy of a country's people can have religious beliefs and the country can still be successful and productive, without war...

Anyway, why is war even part of this discussion? Are Bushs' comments going to spark a war or something!?!? LOL!!! Highly doubtful, people are just waiting for him to shake hands with the new president of the U.S. and see him off. lol.

Anywho, my take on the matter is, China will always do this EVERYTIME ANYBODY has something negative to say about China, China's leaders don't want to own up to the things wrong with the country because they think if they ignore the problems for a little longer, by that time arrives, they'll have surpassed the U.S. economically/financially, technically, politically, and diplomatically. That's what they really want. They want to be the global power or global set of brass knuckles if you will...all the while each Chinese official puts on a Mother Teresa like front with reluctancy. LOL! Sometimes you can just see it on their faces, they don't like their jobs, they don't like what they have to say. It figures, it's not like the reason(s) why are/is such a friggin secret. China blows....that's why. lol.