Closing Gitmo requires tough judgments on inmates

Wednesday 14th January, 05:59 AM JST

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Betzee at 11:17 AM JST - 15th January

Out of the remaining 255 people 60 of them have been cleared but because other countries dont want them they have no where to go.

Not to worry, we can strong arm 'em by pointing the very low recidivism rate. What's the point of being a superpower if you can't throw your weight around, right?

Almost a quarter of the Guantánamo detainees who have been released have been sent back to Saudi Arabia. Facing a substantial threat from terrorism in their own country, the Saudi authorities have been rigorous—some might say harsh—in imprisoning and punishing any terrorist deemed a danger. Yet in new statistics provided to us by the Ministry of Interior in Riyadh, zero of the 121 Guantánamo detainees received by the Saudis were deemed dangerous and ineligible for release.

It gets worse. Of those detainees returned to Saudi Arabia from Guantánamo, more than half have been released and are now free, most after spending a period of time in a halfway house designed to promote a smooth return to society. Only six former Guantánamo detainees have been rearrested in Saudi Arabia for any reason—an astonishingly low recidivism rate of less than 9 percent among those released.

Although the Saudi efforts to reintegrate these prisoners into society are certainly commendable, the only reasonable explanation for such a low recidivism rate is that the detainees were never guilty of terrorist acts in the first place.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4535
smithinjapan at 12:35 PM JST - 15th January

bushlover: "So Smith then they are POWs. Too bad they don't get trials."

SOME are prisoners of war; the others are technically abductees who were (wrongly in many cases) assumed to be potential threats and kept without trial, and hence cannot technically be called POWs.

"Stop apologizing for these 'freedom fighters' who chose to fight against their and your favorite enemy. And all because you have one of those 'North of the Border inferiority complexes"."

Other than saying this is not worth commenting on, I just wanted to say that I'm happy you continue to undermine your own arguments at every turn. Keep it up! Oh... wait... I guess my pointing out the ludicrousness of your statement makes me anti-American and pro-terrorist, eh? Hahaha. Ah, the 'logic'.

Nippon5: Betzee shot so many holes in your argument that I don't need or really want to. Except, of course, to point out how childish you are in your attempts to disort people's comments through some inferiority complex of your own:

"According to Smith. Terrorist in GITMO should have better legal rights then a mamber of the US military. Most people in GITMO are innocent people who happen to be giving flowers to children when the evil Americans took them for no reason what-so-ever.The Americans are using torture on every person in GITMO, trying to get them to admit to crimes. Smith things that letting over 500 of the detainies go is not processing the detanies for trial or release."

Show me where I said ONE of these things, my friend. One. And of course, when I challenge you to do so I don't mean simply twisting one of my comments to say what you want it to. If you do that, I could just as easily twist your:

"I the Navy you can get tried by the captain of the ship. You do not get a lawyer, you do not get to speak, you dont get to see any evidence against you."

...to mean that you think all US sailors are Islamic terrorists. But that's not what you mean, now is it? So, likewise, stop twisting my arguments into what they are not.
Betzee at 12:45 PM JST - 15th January

t reports the people in GITMO had been taking during combat, or with the use of counter intelligence.

Wrong, from linked source above:

Almost all of the detainees were turned over to U.S. forces by foreigners, either with an ax to grind or, more often, for a hefty bounty or reward. After U.S. forces invaded Afghanistan in late 2001, they doled out rewards of about $5,000 or more to Pakistanis and Afghans for each detainee turned over. Contrary to standard law enforcement practice, the U.S. military accepted the uncorroborated allegations of the award claimants with little independent investigation.

You think they are going to get to the bottom of it now, half way around the world after the passage of some years? No wonder people connected to Gitmo are speaking out.
smithinjapan at 12:55 PM JST - 15th January

Nippon5: "None of you know if the people in GITMO are innocent."

We know that people are innocent until proven guilty, or so your courts and laws tend to try and state as axiomatic (and you guys yourselves have used on any number of occasions to defend the neo-cons, US military personnel in Haditha, Blackwater Guards, etc.). We also know that YOU don't know they are guilty.

"Most of you are speaking from emothion and not logic."

The pot calling the kettle black, to say the least.

"Most of you ignore the fact that both Super, and I are stating they need to try these people in a tribunal and when able to present the evidence to the public in a timely manner."

None of us have ignored the fact that you guys say they need a tribunal, and in fact ALL of us on here, including you guys, have stated that they have a right to a trial. Where we differ is in our saying they cannot be legally held indefinitely WITHOUT a trial, and as such, as even Obama says, they need to be tried speedily and soon.

"No matter how many times SS spin alot tries to make it sound like we changed our idea the truth is SS spin is just starting to understand the situation better."

I'm not sure what you mean here, and is 'SS' SushiSake?
SuperLib at 06:16 PM JST - 15th January

Superlib: Why have the vast majority of the men been released? sushisake: They haven't.

About 775 prisoners have been sent to Gitmo. 420 of them were released without charge, others were released to their home countries, others were sent to the US for trial, etc. There are 270 prisoners there now, but 55 or so have been cleared for release but their home countries refuse to take them, so that means the US is holding somewhere in the neighborhood of 225 people.
SuperLib at 06:37 PM JST - 15th January

Betzee I've never put much stock in the "axe to grind" point of view. Sure, I'm guessing it has happened because even one case makes that truth possible, but since we're talking about a total of +/- 800 people arrested I think it's fair to say that if it was just a money play by angry Afghans we'd have thousands and thousands of prisoners and a lot of rich Afghans by now. Either that or there aren't many axes to grind in Afghanistan.

And smith, I don't think anyone has "shot holes" into anyone else's arguments. The fact is that there is compelling evidence on both sides. Nippon5 is right to be outraged that suspected terrorists will be granted more rights than US military suspects. And others are right to say that there needs to be a resolution...you can't hold people forever without charging them. But the problem is that choosing against one path is the same as supporting the other by default. So whichever choice you make will have a negative consequence.

Generally speaking people have strong opinions on one side but the more they learn about the specifics of the situation they tend to gravitate more towards the middle. Again...like Obama said....there are tough judgments to be made. If it were a slam bunk on either side then the "right" decision would have been made a long time ago. Personally, protecting Americans takes priority over granting rights to non-Americans, in my opinion.
SuperLib at 06:44 PM JST - 15th January

And Betzee, I don't think the torture claims are really a reason why they don't want people released. A majority of the people have already been released.

Besides, stories about torture tend to make people realize what they consider to be torture and what really is torture are two different things. When we say someone was tortured we have images of nails being pulled out, electric shocks, etc. We don't think of solitary confinement, sleep deprivation (a common practice in Japan), etc. If anything hearing stories about Gitmo it will probably surprise them since my guess their image is different from reality.
Betzee at 09:37 PM JST - 15th January

Betzee I've never put much stock in the "axe to grind" point of view. Sure, I'm guessing it has happened because even one case makes that truth possible, but since we're talking about a total of +/- 800 people arrested I think it's fair to say that if it was just a money play by angry Afghans we'd have thousands and thousands of prisoners and a lot of rich Afghans by now. Either that or there aren't many axes to grind in Afghanistan.

Well I guess ya missed the award winning film, Taxi to the Dark Side. I never put much stock in your claim you didn't read my posts, but people have to be held accountable for what they write.

The trials are held on Guantanamo. If they weren't, there'd be little point in keeping the prisoners there in the first place. And some of those held, such as the Chinese Uighurs, were released only after a court ruling. Except they weren't because the GWB administration is appealing that ruling even though they acknowledge "the men pose no threat." Someone 's obviously threatened by the prospect of their release.

As for this "their countries won't take them back" excuse, it's really lame. The government of Pakistan receives a lot of money from Uncle Sam every year, Karzai's government in Afghanistan is wholly dependent on foreign aid to survive. There's no way they could refuse to take someone back, particularly in the absence of a conviction. The Saudis striping OBL of his citizenship is a different matter. And they'd love to get their hands on him anyway.
Betzee at 11:15 PM JST - 15th January

It's reassuring to me to find people with whom I disagree who nonetheless have a clear command of the issues involved:

As someone who has supported the military commission system, I must concede that it has performed abysmally, and Wednesday’s news reflects more of the same....

[E]ven those of us who have argued that there is a place for enhanced interrogation techniques have insisted that those techniques should be limited to intelligence gathering in dire threat circumstances; they are not for gathering trial evidence. You can call a proceeding in which coerced confessions are used for many things; one thing you can’t call it is a “trial.” Using coerced statements is a corruption of our entire understanding of what a trial is. Indeed.

http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/14/tortures-blowback/?hp
SuperLib at 01:07 AM JST - 16th January

Sorry Betzee but my point was about the overall numbers. Unless you can show me that the +/- 800 number is incorrect you're not going to convince me that any significant number of the people in Gitmo are there because of whimsical, cash grabbing Afghans with axes to grind. If the criteria were indeed that easy to determine arrest then the numbers would be much, much higher, in my opinion. Showing me a movie about one man isn't going to change that.

And from time to time I do skip over your posts, especially when you turn into a delivery boy for other people's opinions days after a story breaks. I think I mentioned that to you some time ago (maybe years?) and you still bring it up. If I'd known it would have such a lasting impact on you I would have kept that thought to myself. Now I'm actually feeling guilty about what I must have done to you since it's still fresh in your mind. My apologies.

By the way, what's your solution to Gitmo? So far I've only heard endless criticism from you, or I should say from others that you copy and paste for.
smithinjapan at 01:13 AM JST - 16th January

SuperLib: "But the problem is that choosing against one path is the same as supporting the other by default."

Dude, I hate to break your bubble, but that argument only works if you are choosing to turn left or right in a tunnel, and even then you can still choose to go back the way you came to GET to the tunnel, so even THEN it doesn't work. That logic is one of the reasons you guys do indeed have arguments shot full of holes.

I don't like GWB, that's no secret. I don't like Hamas, but that does not mean I support what Israel is doing in the Gaza. Nor does my dislike of Israel's extremism mean that I support Hamas. I'm sorry, but there are more paths than 100% right or 100% left, in this case and in others. In this case my arguing that the people need trials does not at all mean Nippon's idea that I therefore demand the immediate release of people who have not had trials, etc. My defending people who may have been incarcerated for complete lack of wrong doing does not mean I support terrorism. In those cases he's not even looking at black or white, he's taking one argument and declaring that it therefore means something completely beyond the opposite.

Bottom line, these people cannot be held indefinitely, and need trials. Nippon5 is NOT correct to be angry; he's asking for no exceptions to people not proven to commit crimes, but wants people in the military to be granted exceptions by comparison to how those in Gitmo SHOULD be treated (aren't yet). What's more, military conduct/code, and regulations have always adhered to a very strict set of standards -- well, until the US spread their military so thin they have to accept anyone who goes to the mall. Civilians get away with far more than one does in the military. Suck it up, or don't join, and since Nippon5 and many other posters on here can only fight wars from their armchairs, they're in no position to gripe about how civilians are treated better than people in the military when it comes to being tried (wrongfully).
SuperLib at 08:23 AM JST - 16th January

Then give us your alternative, smith. But please....spare me the convoluted messages that are nearly impossible to respond to. Let's keep the Israel/Palestinian debates there and skip the whole whole US army recruitment issue. And yes, I get your "no one is ever 100%" to blame position that's used when militant Arabs are the topic, so there's no need to go there again, either.

Giving the inmates rights could end up killing more Americans. Not giving them rights could result in innocent people being held without a fair trial. So please, give us your solution to the problem in real terms.
Nippon5 at 03:53 PM JST - 16th January

I said many people are angry about the fact people scream the right of the terrorist are being violated, but those same rights get violated all the time in the military to actual US citizens.

Now read this again from my post Smith is trying to use to make his point. Notice I do not say Im angry, nor do I say they shouldnt have a trial. Seems he has to recreate the information written to base his arguement on. Its just sad.

** but it puts a bad taste in alot of peoples mouths that a person suspected of terrorist activites will get the same rights as a citizen of the US does. It may not be right, but I think if you attack the country that grants those rights, you shouldnt expect to recieve them. With that said I do think the tribunal needs to happen fast, the evidence if able to be declassifeid shown and we need to move on from this. Maybe then people like you will lose one more needle that you use to stick into your anti American voodoo doll.**

Superlib dont hold your breath on an answer. Like I said before." Some complain about things because its easier then actually providing a solution"
Taka313 at 09:36 AM JST - 18th January

superlib,

Your earlier argument regarding why these men cannot be tried makes no sense.

If a suspect is shown transcripts of a conversation with him and another man then he knows that other man is an agent. That means the agent's life is now at risk because the defendant's lawyer will be able to contact anyone and tell them this information.

Their lawyers are officers in the United States military. Do you think they're going to be telling other people?

Wow.

Taka
unklesam at 02:55 PM JST - 20th January

What's even a more daunting chance than closing gitmo, is finding nations willing to accept these prisoners. Seems many of Europes biggest whinners want to close the facility but don't want these "innocents" anywhere near their own backyard... the hypocricy is staggering !