Colorado school shooting suspect dead; 2 hurt

My first thought when I heard the news was that this was a copycat attack that was timed to coincide with the Newton anniversary and it may still be even though the news is coming out that this was a targeted attack against a single teacher.

Thoughts and prayers with those injured.

All the media search for "motives" in these events. The motives are the same worldwide. Fortunately in most countries disgruntled people don't have the tools to enact horror; unfortunately in the US everyone knows they can. And unfortunately, the American gun culture seems bound to last past our lifetimes.

If you're wondering why a lot of these types of shootings end with them taking their own life, its quite simple really. It sinks in that what they've done is not irreversible and the easiest way to not have to deal with the judgment and conviction of the law and family members of the victim. When the smell of blood actually hits a person its not like some TV program or video game. It can make you physically sick plus it sinks in someone is either dead or dying in front of you. The wisdom of knowing the consequences for those types of actions hits them way too late and when it does they can't cope with the results and turn the weapon on themselves.

These stupid brats never get it until its always too late that they realized they've destroyed not only the lives of others, but completely ruined their own lives and future as well.

They do it because they want their death to be famous around the world, like they finally did something that made people notice them. Just my 2 cents.

HonestDictator: "It sinks in that what they've done is not irreversible and the easiest way to not have to deal with the judgment and conviction of the law and family members of the victim."

I think you give them too much credit. I doubt they decide AFTER the fact that what they've done is irreversible (not "not irreversible"), but go in thinking their lives to that point are irreversible, they want to die, and they want to leave a mark -- or they're just plain evil and want to cause a lot of suffering because THEY feel they are suffering.

Anyway, I too thought it was a copy-cat case for a minute, and maybe it was, but I'm just glad no one was killed (save the shooter), and hope the injured makes a full recovery.

NolivingDec. 09, 2013 - 12:24AM JST

It is "laws" like this is why you have the 2nd amendment.

The right of gun ownership does not resolve core issues, PERIOD. Nice try.

NolivingDec. 14, 2013 - 07:58AM JST

Thoughts and prayers with those injured.

I am in middle of this mess right now. I do not think you really mean it. You are pile of .....

Stuff like this happens repeatedly, and legislators who try to do something - however wishy-washy - about it get fired?

Maybe it's something in the water.

Glad no one but the nutter with the gun got killed this time.

America will never learn, these senseless killing wil keep on going and they won't even be news anymore so cherish your god given right to hunt deer, bears and hee haw!! The biggest thrill, hunting down other fellow humans!!

Sadly, again, the NRA claims more childrens' lives in America.

According to the NRA, the price of freedom includes the slaughter of American children in their schools and the NRA membership and corporate greed celebrates this as a fundamental requirement of the US Constitution.

What other reason can there be for the dictatorship of American law by the gun culture created by the NRA?

Glad no one but the nutter with the gun got killed this time.

Actually, someone did.

No doubt the gun lobby will claim that this would not have happened if all the children carried guns.

Actually, someone did.

One of the students who was shot? I'm sorry to hear that. Executed for the 'crime' of living in a country where the 'right' to kill wild animals for fun has precedence over the right to be safe in school.

more gun madness

This will go on for years and years until the US is forced to accept that guns do kill, and that it's gun culture and love of guns is an illness that will dog it until it faces the cold, hard reality that they have it wrong and the law has to change.

Recently I rode an older airplane with a single screen per cabin, so I ended up watching a new comedy movie "The Heat (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/the_heat/) about a pair of women cops cracking a case a in Boston. Probably popular with teenagers and young adults. I mention it because one scene stuck out in my mind where a female "hero" policewoman was asked by a nurse to not use her cell phone in the hospital ward, and the policewoman responded by pulling out a gun and pointing at the nurses head. I guess it was supposed to endear the viewer to the policewoman's tough character and make the viewer laugh "what a card!".

I hate to sound like an old grouch BUT ... when I was growing up in the US 40 years ago I don't think that scene would have made it into a movie. A malignant gun culture has developed and spread across entertainment media, video games, and politics (including the NRA). It's not just guns, it encouraging guns to used recklessly, for instantaneous gratification, to prove a minor point, to satisfy racial enmity, as a way to enhance ego, as a quick path to become a hero, or even as a joke. There first step is to realize this a sickness.

NolivingDec. 14, 2013 - 07:58AM JST

My first thought when I heard the news was that this was a copycat attack that was timed to coincide with the Newton anniversary and it may still be even though the news is coming out that this was a targeted attack against a single teacher.

Thoughts and prayers with those injured.

Mr. Nolving, you owe me an apology. Your comment like this is just a lip service to make you look good on JT. "Thoughts and prayers with those injured", really? Or you actually do not mean it at all. You are insulting my intelligence as you have been advocating the Amendment 2. Do you know what it means to someone like me who are actually in this pain and suffering? Let me hear your excuses, let me hear, let me hear, so I can spit on them.

I will say this, my heart and prayers do go out to the injured and thank God NO one was killed except for the shooter himself. But yet again, here is another example where people are NOT seeing the bigger picture in all of this and making guns the central issue, when it is not! There are a lot of mentally deranged lunatics running around in the US and my problem with that is, how are these people getting access to these firearms? I am all for the 2nd Amendment and support it wholeheartedly, but I do think we need to evaluate and start to reopen mental asylums instead of just issuing drugs to people that are totally unstable and incapable of taking care of themselves as well as their families. Getting rid of the guns won't solve this problem and there is something inherently wrong to think otherwise.

Common denominator in these terrible school situations....Male, student or very recent former student, social issues, mental imbalance, a gun but not always, family or friends have red flags that go undressed.

So sad each and every time however outlawing guns is not the answer. A recent school incident was with a machete. Much less sensational than a firearm but still effective with 3 casualties. Not national news though.

bass4funkDec. 14, 2013 - 10:34AM JST

Getting rid of the guns won't solve this problem and there is something inherently wrong to think otherwise.

Do you have kids?

MarkGDec. 14, 2013 - 10:47AM JST

So sad each and every time however outlawing guns is not the answer

Until your love one gets shut and killed for no reason. I will assure you will change your opinion.

Not national news though.

Wrong, it is a big news. What's your point? Irrelevant.

There are a lot of mentally deranged lunatics running around in the US and my problem with that is, how are these people getting access to these firearms?

Let's leave aside the question of why exactly the US is, in your opinion, overrun with mentally deranged lunatics, and take the claim at face value. How are they getting access to firearms? Easy, the firearms are there for the taking, all over the place.

If you have a room full of propane gas and you throw in a lighted match, you're going to get an explosion. Never mind that you didn't give the gas permission to explode, the gas has free access to the flame: 1 plus 1 = 2, gas plus lighted match = boom, country full of mentally deranged lunatics plus guns freely available = dead kids in schools.

Why oh why, in a country you claim is full of lunatics, would you think it wasn't a good idea to get rid of the guns??

From Whitehouse.gov

A moment for Newtown

On December 14th, one year ago tomorrow, we lost 26 fellow Americans to gun violence at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. We lost 20 of our youngest students, and six dedicated school workers.

To mark the anniversary of that senseless tragedy, President Obama will honor those lost at Sandy Hook with a moment of silence tomorrow morning at 9:30 a.m. ET. We'd like you to join.

Join the moment of silence tomorrow, and help honor the victims of Newtown, Connecticut.

bass4funkDec. 14, 2013 - 10:34AM JST There are a lot of mentally deranged lunatics running around in the US

Yes, and they're all in the gun lobby.

@global

Yes, I have kids and we do go hunting from time to time, just like my dad took me and my grandfather took him. I love to hunt and I'm a big gun owner advocate.

@cleo

However, they get their hands on these firearms, often illegally, that's an entirely seperate issue, there are many countries that use guns for hunting, NOT only the US. As I said, the problem is about finding a way to deal with these mentally challenged people and NOT punish law-abiding gun owners.

@frungy

I think it's the people that are trying to step on our 2nd Amendment rights. Those are the people that truly frighten me.

they get their hands on these firearms, often illegally, that's an entirely seperate issue

No it isn't, it's the crux of the matter. They get the guns because they're there for the getting.

there are many countries that use guns for hunting, NOT only the US

Are you saying that these other countries don't have the problems the US has with school/shopping mall etc shootings because they don't have as many mentally deranged lunatics as the US has? Why, in your opinion, do so many Americans have mental health issues, and what do you propose should be done about it, remembering that in health issues prevention is always better than cure? What do you think needs to be done to prevent so many Americans becoming mentally ill and homicidal? As an American yourself, how confident are you, can you be, about your own mental health? Coz bragging about teaching your kids to kill sounds very disturbed to me.

How 'punished' do you think the kids at Columbine, Sandy Hook, Arapahoe and all the other schools where shootings have taken place, feel? Why should schoolkids be punished?

bass4funkDec. 14, 2013 - 01:26PM JST

@global

Yes, I have kids and we do go hunting from time to time, just like my dad took me and my grandfather took him. I love to hunt and I'm a big gun owner advocate.

bass, I recall that you are from a big city, S. California. These people have no business keeping guns at home as there are no place for real hunting.

I think Tamarama got it right when he used 'illness' to describe love of guns. Those horrific websites peddling a love of guns to children with images of children brandishing firearms are obscene. For me, they should be regarded with the kind of revulsion you'd get if you showed images of a smiling toddler with a carton of Marlboro, a bottle of rectified spirit or a syringe filled with heroin. This is an illness, and admitting that would be a step in the right direction.

bass4funkDec. 14, 2013 - 01:26PM JST

I think it's the people that are trying to step on our 2nd Amendment rights. Those are the people that truly frighten me.

frighten? You are funny, bass. You've got guns and we have no guns. What are you afraid of? Fear not.

I recall that you are from a big city, S. California. These people have no business keeping guns at home as there are no place for real hunting.

I fear NO one, I enjoy collecting, I enjoy hunting and for my own personal protection. My right, but fear, not at all.

Where does anyone get the right to say, what a person can or can't have at their residence. It's my home, my right. I own about 8 firearms and I go to many places to practice, not only in S. California. I keep them safely locked and unloaded. No problem here.

They get the guns because they're there for the getting.

They are NOT there for the getting. It's not like shopping at at a local Toys R Us store. I do think there is a bigger problem and as I stated earlier, even if they took away every persons right to own a firearm, they would just find something else to kill you with and then you'll see banning something else. It's a never ending perpetuating cycle and a slippery slope. Again, guns are not the real problem

I do think we need to evaluate and start to reopen mental asylums instead of just issuing drugs to people that are totally unstable and incapable of taking care of themselves as well as their families. Getting rid of the guns won't solve this problem and there is something inherently wrong to think otherwise.

Straight from the "look, squirrel!" school of thought. Look, seatbelt requirements for cars were not a first step on the road to their abolition, for example, yet gun nuts (and I reserve this term for the following personality type) go incandescent at the mere possibility of common-sense safety requirements. No, America will never, ever illegalize gun ownership, but that does not preclude responsibility. Likely, the perpetrator in this case procured the weapon from his home or that of a family member who had left it sitting around unlocked with ammunition similarly available. Almost 150 American children have died in accidental shootings since Newton - many those where a child finds a loaded gun sitting on the counter - but gun owners are seldom if ever prosecuted for violating even the weak laws which exist. Gun owners should be held strictly responsible for the constant security of their weapons and be both fined and jailed if they fail.

The mental health aspect does hold a modicum of validity, but unless you're envisioning some sort of "Minority Report" scenario, it would never be sufficient. It would also be very expensive; who would pay? I'd support a dollar-per-bullet tax to fund it; most "independent conservatives" would probably rather raid funding for education.

They are NOT there for the getting. It's not like shopping at at a local Toys R Us store.

No, it's more like looking in Dad's desk drawer or Mum's bedside cabinet, or the glove compartment of some stranger's car that wasn't all that difficult to jimmy open.

even if they took away every persons right to own a firearm, they would just find something else to kill you with

Yes, that's why the UK (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school cricket-bat attacks, Germany (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school bier stein attacks, and Japan (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school rice-cracker attacks.

Oh hang on, they aren't.

So, we come back to the question - why do you think so many of your fellow Americans are nutters, and what's to be done about it?

They are NOT there for the getting. It's not like shopping at at a local Toys R Us store.

You're right - they need to go next door to WalMart or any sporting goods store instead. Anybody can get guns.

Or just go to a gun show - absolutely nothing stopping anyone from buying anything they want. Sad.

Again, guns are not the real problem

Guns are absolutely the problem. America is seduced by guns. America promotes itself through it's TV shows and films, it's propensity for war - through guns. It identifies with guns. It loves them. It's completely and blindingly obvious.

Guns are a cowardly killing tool. They allow someone to kill many people/animals quickly with no real physical proximity. There is no courage or bravery in that, and to take weapons into a place like a school where people should be safest, is despicable and evil cowardice in it's worst form. Guns allow that.

Many, many countries function perfectly well without guns. The last mass killing in my country was in 1996, and is, in fact, one of the deadliest shootings by a single person in history. Port Arthur, Tasmania - a guy killed 35 people. The result was much stricter firearm laws and a government initiated gun buy back scheme.

And guess what? We don't miss them. In fact, I don't even know where you can buy them in Australia - I NEVER see them.

Again, guns are not the real problem

Tell that to the people that get shot by them.

More evidence that better mental health care as the answer to gun carnage is a charade comes from analyses of Newtown:

A 44-page summary of Connecticut authorities' investigation concludes that Lanza "had significant mental health issues that affected his ability to live a normal life and to interact with others. What contribution this made to the shootings, if any, is unknown as those mental health professionals who saw him did not see anything that would have predicted his future behavior."

To meld bass's suggestion with this reality would be to require that any little display of antisocial behavior disallow gun ownership - and this would strip guns from far more people than would commonsense regulation.

must be the high altitude.

Getting rid of guns will not get rid of violence. People that want to harm others will find a way. Some will argue that people do not need guns. They are right. That having been said people also do not need to drink alcohol, but they do. Something that is needed are cars. Nobody would ever suggest getting rid of cars even though more people in America are killed by cars than guns. Of all those vehicular deaths the number of deaths involving alcohol is about the same as the number of firearm related deaths. No calls for a return to Prohibition.

Even with the gun control laws already in place it is still not too much of a problem to get a weapon. Going back a few decades it was even easier to obtain a firearm in America. Were there any mass shootings in the 50s, 60s, or even the 70s? No. What happened? Why the "increase" in gun related deaths? BTW, firearm-related crimes have actually been on the decline for about four years.

Yes, that's why the UK (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school cricket-bat attacks, Germany (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school bier stein attacks, and Japan (with restrictive gun ownership laws) is plagued with a series of school rice-cracker attacks.

So, we come back to the question - why do you think so many of your fellow Americans are nutters, and what's to be done about it?

I could go on and show you where other problems are in those countries, but that would just get my post deleted, so I will refrain, however, as I said before, other countries face other problems, but the US gets trashed for every gun incident? As far as to why there are a lot of deranged people walking around and are NOT locked up, does remain a serious mystery in my mind, but be that as it may, I personally think, one way to resolve this problem is to build, house and heavily supervise these people, reinstate stop and frisk, especially in the big cities. It's a start.

@zichi

Yes, this is true, but I am allowed to have a gun, I do and I'm very content with it and I enjoy hunting and going to the desert and shooting or the range. Again, I'm not afraid, I'm a big guy, but I love them, always have and always will, very simple.

@pandabelle

In California, Walmart does NOT sell firearms. At least, I've never seen it.

@tamarama

Guns are absolutely the problem. America is seduced by guns. America promotes itself through it's TV shows and films, it's propensity for war - through guns. It identifies with guns. It loves them. It's completely and blindingly obvious.

Guns are a cowardly killing tool. They allow someone to kill many people/animals quickly with no real physical proximity. There is no courage or bravery in that, and to take weapons into a place like a school where people should be safest, is despicable and evil cowardice in it's worst form. Guns allow that.

I totally disagree, I absolutely don't think the guns are the problem, guns don't kill, I blame the sick and deranged, but not the weapon itself. And please stop saying America promotes guns through TV, other countries with their strict laws show gun violence as well or are you suggesting we should watch only one type of film, love stories, so no more drama, suspense, horror, anime, etc, etc... Also, stop with the killing animals is wrong. How do we eat our meat? The animal was killed and it doesn't matter in the manner that it was killed, the fact is, the animal is deceased, by whatever means is completely irrelevant, the outcome is still the same. You think killing someone with a gun is cowardly, I disagree. But you think using a knife or a machete is more sane?

gun nuts (and I reserve this term for the following personality type) go incandescent at the mere possibility of common-sense safety requirements. No, America will never, ever illegalize gun ownership, but that does not preclude responsibility.

For some reason this made me think of my time in the Corps. I was an Infantryman. Guns were a daily part my professional life. Even back in the early 90s I received frequent training on the use firearms (the 4 gun safety rules, use of deadly force, etc.). This constant training holds true to this day. The same goes for the members of law enforcement. However, such training is not required for civilian gun owners.

DaveAllTogetherDec. 14, 2013 - 10:06PM JST For some reason this made me think of my time in the Corps. I was an Infantryman. Guns were a daily part my professional life. Even back in the early 90s I received frequent training on the use firearms (the 4 gun safety rules, use of deadly force, etc.). This constant training holds true to this day. The same goes for the members of law enforcement. However, such training is not required for civilian gun owners.

I've found a similar trend. Most (not all, but most) people who rely on their weapon for professional reasons treat it with the care and caution it deserves, and are acutely aware of its potential to kill other people and themselves if they fail to treat it with respect for even a single second.

On the other hand, most people who own guns in the U.S. are casual users, and the casualness translates into a mass of stupid gun-handling errors. Most times they get lucky and nothing happens, but I've seen idiots showing off their guns in bars, pointing them in the direction of other people, and generally acting like if the safety is on then nothing bad can happen (not that they even check the safety most of the time).

In my opinion U.S. gun law needs the following changes:

Certification by a licensed professional (police officer, drill sergeant, etc.). Re-certification every 2 years. High standards. If you can't hit your target on the range 90% of the time then you won't hit anything when you're under stress, and you will probably kill some innocent bystander. One strike rule. If you're caught handling your gun in an unsafe way, storing it (or ammunition) incorrectly, or otherwise not treating the gun with respect then you're barred from owning a gun for a period of 10 years. No exceptions. Concealed carry ONLY. If someone sees your gun and you're not actually using it for its intended purpose (hunting/self-defense/etc.) then you lose it. The reason for this is simple, if I know you have a gun then I'll wait until I'm really close before threatening you. At this point your gun (still in its holster) is useless against a knife, it simply takes too long to draw, unsafety and fire. A gun is only an effective defense if it is a secret. Gun licenses are a PRIVILEGE, not an automatic RIGHT. In fact I'd say that should apply to almost every so-called "right" in the U.S. You should have to earn them, one at a time, especially the right to vote and the right to reproduce. Way too many idiot votes and way too many idiot parents.

"He knew he was the target and he left that school in an effort to try to encourage the shooter to also leave the school," the sheriff said. "That was a very wise tactical decision."

Tactics or not, I would get the hell out of there as well.

Seems reasonable, I would go for that.

The NRA wants teenagers to have guns to protect themselves.

All of the gun supporters will give lip service to common-sense legislation on message boards, but that's usually where it ends and nothing changes.

The sick thing is that gun profits rise with every new massacre.

I could go on and show you where other problems are in those countries, but that would just get my post deleted

Nice try, but no points. Mass shootings/killings in most other countries are few and far between, in America it happens so often it's hard to keep tabs on them all.

As far as to why there are a lot of deranged people walking around and are NOT locked up, does remain a serious mystery in my mind, but be that as it may, I personally think, one way to resolve this problem is to build, house and heavily supervise these people

The question was why does America (in your opinion) have so many homicidal maniacs, not what should be done with them. Most of the loonies go undetected until they go off on their killing sprees; you think 'stop and frisk' would bring them all out into the open? The funding for the extra police work to come from where? And then you would lock anyone suspicious up to pre-empt any possible actions, Minority Report style? America already has 756 convicts locked up per 100,000 of population, compared with 147 in the UK, 95 in Germany and 62 in Japan; how many more people do you want to lock up? And how do you plan to pay for all these extra detentions?

Also, stop with the killing animals is wrong. How do we eat our meat? The animal was killed and it doesn't matter in the manner that it was killed, the fact is, the animal is deceased, by whatever means is completely irrelevant, the outcome is still the same.

The point being made is that killing animals for fun is wrong. If your urge to kill is that strong, get a job in an abattoir. On second thoughts, don't bother: your 'how the animal dies doesn't matter so long as it ends up dead and tasty, even a kid can do it' philosophy would probably disqualify you.

The manner in which an animal is killed is very, very relevant. There are strict laws governing abattoirs and the manner in which they treat the animals they process.

If guns are outlawed in America, only outlaws will have them. However, if everyone were armed 24/7 a simple act such as bumping into a person would result in dozens upon dozens being slaughtered. The solution is somewhere in the middle.

I could go on and show you where other problems are in those countries, but that would just get my post deleted

Nice try, but no points. Mass shootings/killings in most other countries are few and far between, in America it happens so often it's hard to keep tabs on them all.

I'm not trying to score points, the fact is, there are other crimes in other countries perpetrated and done with other weapons that have strict gun control, you want to hurt someone, there is always a way, bottom line.

The question was why does America (in your opinion) have so many homicidal maniacs, not what should be done with them. Most of the loonies go undetected until they go off on their killing sprees; you think 'stop and frisk' would bring them all out into the open? The funding for the extra police work to come from where? And then you would lock anyone suspicious up to pre-empt any possible actions, Minority Report style? America already has 756 convicts locked up per 100,000 of population, compared with 147 in the UK, 95 in Germany and 62 in Japan; how many more people do you want to lock up? And how do you plan to pay for all these extra detentions?

Like I said, I could give you stats to counter your argument, but that would be off topic and the mods would never let it through, so I will digress.

Also, stop with the killing animals is wrong. How do we eat our meat? The animal was killed and it doesn't matter in the manner that it was killed, the fact is, the animal is deceased, by whatever means is completely irrelevant, the outcome is still the same.

The point being made is that killing animals for fun is wrong. If your urge to kill is that strong, get a job in an abattoir. On second thoughts, don't bother: your 'how the animal dies doesn't matter so long as it ends up dead and tasty, even a kid can do it' philosophy would probably disqualify you.

Sorry, but I can do what I want, if I want to go in the desert and shoot rodents all day, that is my prerogative. I am a legal gun owner and a law-abiding citizen, I don't go around telling other people how to live their lives, that is for everyone else to decide and deal with. I like meat, I will continue to hunt and if people want to indulge themselves in a arugula salad, that's their choice. I teach my kids to hunt, they are very good, they understand the power of a gun and what it can do. They know when and when not to touch or use it. And yes, I'm very proud of that.

The manner in which an animal is killed is very, very relevant. There are strict laws governing abattoirs and the manner in which they treat the animals they process.

That's YOUR opinion and I respect it.

Well said Tamarama

bass4funk

I absolutely don't think the guns are the problem, guns don't kill, I blame the sick and deranged, but not the weapon itself.

I think this is the most deluded argument in this debate. In your opinion, Bass, what are guns designed for?

And please stop saying America promotes guns through TV, other countries with their strict laws show gun violence as well or are you suggesting we should watch only one type of film, love stories, so no more drama, suspense, horror, anime, etc, etc...

No, please don't try to construct my argument for me to serve your own. It's just a casual observation, but I'm guessing the number of films and TV shows that come out of the US feature guns at a much, much higher rate than almost every other country. How much Japanese TV features guns? Japanese Films?

Also, stop with the killing animals is wrong. How do we eat our meat? The animal was killed and it doesn't matter in the manner that it was killed

Again, don't try to construct my argument for me. I didn't say killing animals is wrong anywhere.

You think killing someone with a gun is cowardly, I disagree. But you think using a knife or a machete is more sane?

You miss the point. I think killing is wrong, full stop. But a gun allows people to kill faster, more efficiently, because that is what they are designed to do. And most pertinently to this argument, and whether you are willing to admit it or not, this is what people use them for. So even if YOU don't think that's what guns are for, plenty of others do, because it's their weapon of choice when they decide to go and kill a load of people in a public place.

It appears parents no longer discipline their children thinking they can do no wrong & since discipline has been removed from school, children believe they can do no wrong even when don't respect elders. Until discipline is returned to family & schools, violence will continue & People will be stunned as to why the violence occurred! During my school era, capital punishment occurred & there was more respect for classmates & elders.

Mr. Nolving, you owe me an apology. Your comment like this is just a lip service to make you look good on JT. "Thoughts and prayers with those injured", really? Or you actually do not mean it at all. You are insulting my intelligence as you have been advocating the Amendment 2. Do you know what it means to someone like me who are actually in this pain and suffering? Let me hear your excuses, let me hear, let me hear, so I can spit on them.

Globalwatcher, first let me ask you this besides living in the state of Colorado what is your connection to the shooting? Was one of your relatives a student or employee at the school? Were they one of the responding officers?

Are you related to Claire Davis?

Do you honestly think that people who advocate for rights such as guns really advocate for the criminal usage or irresponsibility of such objects?

For example do you believe those that advocate for abortion rights really want abortions to happen?

Do you think those that advocate for freedom of speech and press advocate for hate speech or death threats?

The last mass killing in my country was in 1996

Sadly Tamara that is false, there have been several arson attacks that have resulted in mass murder.

For example the Childers Palace Backpackers Hostel fire that occurred on 23rd of June in 2000 that killed 15 people.

Churchill Fire that occurred on Febuary 7th 2009 that killed 10 people.

Quakers Hill Nursing Home that occurred on November 18th 2011 that killed 11 people.

Why the need for military-style semi-automatic weapons with high-capacity detachable magazines. Not the sort of weapon to take animal hunting but used in human hunting.

Zichi the answer to that question would be versatility; it is important to note they are legal in a lot of nations such as New Zealand, UK(Yes they are legal in the UK just limited to .22 LR caliber and have to be rimfire only and no there are not any magazine capacity limits in the UK), they are legal in Italy, France, Germany, Finland, Canada, Austria, and the Netherlands.

there are other crimes in other countries perpetrated and done with other weapons that have strict gun control

Yes of course there are. But we're not talking about random crimes, we're talking about mass killings in schools. I promise the mod won't delete you if you tell us what the UK, German and/or Japanese equivalent of the US school shooting epidemic is using these other weapons, so that we can understand what you're talking about. Because from where I'm sitting, those countries don't seem to have that problem. Nor the problem with rampant mental illness that you claim America has. The only difference that I can see between these predominantly sane countries and America is ....guns.

if I want to go in the desert and shoot rodents all day, that is my prerogative. ...... I like meat, I will continue to hunt

I'm sure even most meat-eaters will find that a bit ...eugh. You hunt rodents - rats, mice, prairie dogs - for food? Bunnies? Hamsters?

Yes it may be your legal prerogative to get your jollies shooting rats, but it doesn't really add anything to your 'this is what I need to do that is more important than keeping kids safe in our schools and shopping malls and on our streets' argument. You'll remember it used to be the legal prerogative of people in your country to own other people and treat them with as much consideration as they would give to a walnut tree. Legal prerogative wins you only legal arguments, not moral ones.

I teach my kids to hunt

I still can't believe that any parent would want to do that or own up to it, never mind brag about it.

That's YOUR opinion

Actually no, 'there are strict laws' isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Basically, the big difference between UK and American gun ownership is that owning a gun in the UK is difficult

Depends on how you define difficult, it is easier to get a Section 1 Firearms Certificate than it is to get a driver's license in the UK.

In the US a lot less people are interested in hunting. Also, individual households have less gun ownership. However, gun sales are up. And there seem to be a lot of loud mouths about gun privileges who are getting louder. What's up with that? Minority speaking there must be a certain group of people out on the fringe to the point of buying up all those guns like there is no tomorrow waiting for who-knows-what calamity (and explaining that people who don't choose to participate have something wrong with them -- Scientologists have this type of coercive mentality). OK, go ahead and buy all the guns you "need" if you need to participate in this bubble among you guys. But in the future when you want to offload your arsenal (and a great deal of you guys will want to do this someday as bubbles always work this way) please do it responsibly. When your guns lose value from all that market saturation please deal with it and sell it legitimately at a loss instead of profiting from selling it at some grey channel where it ends up on the street. You own it you be responsible for it!

Of course laws are vital but the perverted gun culture of the US is also an issue which must be addressed. Gun lovers, and the key word is lovers, often recoil from that word but just reading the posts here which talk of teaching children to use guns, collecting guns and having a detailed knowledge of different types of guns tells me that lover is the right word. The usual retorts of self-defence, second amendment rights and the comical, vainglorious idea of defending yourself against a tyrannical government are smokescreens. Guns are glorified in the US, and not just through idiotic gun-toting dramas and movies. I had the pleasure of living in the US, a country I love, and couldn't believe the number of stupid history documentaries I saw with a gravelly-voiced narrator introducing 'The....., the gun which won the....' with almost erotic descriptions of how this weapon was a huge step forward in drilling holes into fellow humans more efficiently. It's truly tragic that this nonsense is watched and pushed onto children. It has to stop.

We are a country so awash in guns that it's impossible to keep them out of the wrong hands unless we start making some hard choices.

Noliving

Sadly Tamara that is false, there have been several arson attacks that have resulted in mass murder.

I was referring to gun attacks seeing that is the topic of discussion here. Guess I should have clarified that.

Yes of course there are. But we're not talking about random crimes, we're talking about mass killings in schools. I promise the mod won't delete you if you tell us what the UK, German and/or Japanese equivalent of the US school shooting epidemic is using these other weapons, so that we can understand what you're talking about. Because from where I'm sitting, those countries don't seem to have that problem. Nor the problem with rampant mental illness that you claim America has. The only difference that I can see between these predominantly sane countries and America is ....guns.

You are not a Mod, you don't speak for them and I'm NOT taking a chance, so I digress, but I still stand by my last statement, another time I'll leave it for another thread.

I'm sure even most meat-eaters will find that a bit ...eugh. You hunt rodents - rats, mice, prairie dogs - for food? Bunnies? Hamsters?

It all depends.

Yes it may be your legal prerogative to get your jollies shooting rats, but it doesn't really add anything to your 'this is what I need to do that is more important than keeping kids safe in our schools and shopping malls and on our streets' argument. You'll remember it used to be the legal prerogative of people in your country to own other people and treat them with as much consideration as they would give to a walnut tree. Legal prerogative wins you only legal arguments, not moral ones.

We are not talking about morality, because depending on the person you are asking, it can have various definitions and meanings.

I still can't believe that any parent would want to do that or own up to it, never mind brag about it.

Actually no, 'there are strict laws' isn't an opinion, it's a fact.

Well, yes, it is, it is your opinion, the law is the law, but I abide by it, therefore, outside of that you are making an emotional argument, which is your personal opinion. I enjoy hunting, you think it's barbaric, difference of opinion, nothing wrong with it.

@tamarama

I think this is the most deluded argument in this debate. In your opinion, Bass, what are guns designed for?

They are designed to stop, slow down, wound or kill, depending on your intentions.

And please stop saying America promotes guns through TV, other countries with their strict laws show gun violence as well or are you suggesting we should watch only one type of film, love stories, so no more drama, suspense, horror, anime, etc, etc...

It's true. If not, please give me a long list of movies where there are NO guns involved that are griping, captivating award winning and can hold a persons attention.

No, please don't try to construct my argument for me to serve your own. It's just a casual observation, but I'm guessing the number of films and TV shows that come out of the US feature guns at a much, much higher rate than almost every other country. How much Japanese TV features guns? Japanese Films?

Straw man argument, whether in the US a film shows 90 guns and a German shows 1, the point is, guns are guns and guns are shown in almost every movie, just saying...

Again, don't try to construct my argument for me. I didn't say killing animals is wrong anywhere.

Then my apologies, because I surely don't.

You miss the point. I think killing is wrong, full stop. But a gun allows people to kill faster, more efficiently, because that is what they are designed to do. And most pertinently to this argument, and whether you are willing to admit it or not, this is what people use them for. So even if YOU don't think that's what guns are for, plenty of others do, because it's their weapon of choice when they decide to go and kill a load of people in a public place.

Well, that doesn't apply to me, because I'm not some mentally ill person that is trying to kill ANY human beings. I'm love to hunt and where I live as a precautionary measure, I am licensed to have a gun in my home. And as I stated many times, I will use it to protect my family if need be, if anyone doesn't like it, too bad. I'm not breaking the law.

Sadly, again, the NRA claims more childrens' lives in America.

No, kcjapan. A madman took lives. The NRA is fighting for our rights. Where people don't have guns, there is tyranny. Where people can't have guns, they can't defend themselves.

From the age of 17 you can apply online for a provisional license to drive a car. Take a course of driving lessons. Take your driving test. So, I reject your comment.

Background check is easy, you fill out a form that takes maybe 10 minutes, say you want it for target shooting, and hand it off to the police that do all work after that. Assuming you have no violent history it is pretty much a guaranteed you will get one. The only thing you really have to do after that is buy a gun locker and then have the police inspect it to make sure its location in the house is acceptable and is secured tightly. This whole process usually takes about 8 weeks. It is that fast and that easy.

http://content.met.police.uk/cs/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheadername1=Content-Type&blobheadername2=Content-Disposition&blobheadervalue1=application%2Fpdf&blobheadervalue2=inline%3B+filename%3D%2246%2F530%2FForm+201+-+Application+Dec+2013.pdf%22&blobkey=id&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1283666635383&ssbinary=true

Drivers license you have to take hours upon hours of classes and then you have to pass three tests, the theory tests(two tests) pass rate is just over 60% while the practical pass rate is just over 40%, it is considered normal for people to have to take the test 3 times before they pass.

In order to get a full driver licence in the UK you take the theory test first, after that you have wait two years before you can take the practical test, which by the way again has a pass rate of just over 40%.

If you don't get a full drivers licence you are severely restricted to what you can drive and usually you are restricted in almost all cases to speeds 45 mph or slower.

So I disagree, I believe getting a section 1 firearms certificate is a lot easier than getting a drivers license that allows you to drive cars and go 60 mph.

Seen in these comments, the NRA has created a mind set in America that craves guns to the extent that even the slaughter of twenty children and six of their teachers in their school is dismissed as a necessary condition of freedom.

Simply put, their Constitution requires the slaughter of children, as attempted at Arapahoe High School in Centennial and these NRA representatives are ready to kill to perpetuate that condition.

It must be a very dark and twisted psychology that prefers the slaughter of children to even the discussion of gun regulation.

In America if the NRA hates State Representatives because they advocate gun regulation. So, the NRA forces a recall election to remove these legislators. (search: Colorado NRA Recall Removes Legislators)

In America, the NRA paranoids publicly use the YouTube to advocate killing sprees when gun regulation is discussed. (search: Yeager, Tennessee, "I'm going to get my gun and start killing")

In America, when these same deranged gun fetishists want to cry about their rights they take to the State Houses openly marching with their assault weapons with a stated goal that "guns will be so common and so frequently seen that everyone will want one" (search: Texas Open Carry Storms Capitol, Children Frightened, Parents' Pleas Ignored)

And even here again in Colorado, the scene of a mass murder in a movie theater only months ago, another deranged gunman attempts slaughter and intends worst.

Sadly, again, here the reader can plainly see the root of the gun slaughter these Americans see as their right and a necessary condition created by the Constitution.

They claim they are defending a right but the reader sees them for what they are. Addicts. Addicted to slaughter and ready to remove any science or public outcry after yet another mass murder while the gun industry scores a 55% increase in profits.

Trading children’s' lives for profits and armed with a deranged band of psychos and addicts the NRA has successfully created a abattoir world order and many of them are ready to kill to make that the permanent condition of life and death in America and the rest of the globe.

the NRA has created a mind set in America that craves guns to the extent that even the slaughter of twenty children and six of their teachers in their school is dismissed as a necessary condition of freedom.

Untrue and misleading. The right to bear arms is a necessary condition of perpetual freedom. Nothing in the Constitution says anyone has to be killed by those guns for that freedom. No one is saying those killed are martyrs for freedom; they are innocent victims.

The NRA is fighting for our lives.

The NRA is fighting for their guns. Our lives are irrelevant.