Demjanjuk faces 27,900 accessory to murder counts

Tuesday 14th July, 04:58 AM JST

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kinniku at 12:15 PM JST - 16th July

I clearly stated that the German and American governments were involved in faking documents and deceiving the courts.

Yes, and time and time again you have stated that you believe that these countries' governments are controlled by Jews...

By the way, what is antisemitic about vho.org?

LOL! What ISN'T antisemitic about vho.org?

By the way, I am delighted to announce that Germar Rudolf was finally released from prison earlier this month.

You forgot to say that Germar Rudolf is referred to as a holocaust denier by news agencies such as Iran's IRNA.

Great news isn't it!

Ummm...I don't not care one way or the other...

Can you imagine how the Israeli court would have been viewed if they executed him when it could be clearly proven that another man was in fact Ivan the Terrible.

They would have been viewed and should have been viewed as any court that made the same mistake would have been viewed...
sabiwabi at 12:43 PM JST - 16th July

Grafton, Before sentencing someone to death for being a specific person, you need irrefutable (and legit) evidence. One should not need to prove that they are someone else.

Demjanjuk is guilty.

How do you know. The trial is not yet finished. You seemed to have made up your mind a long time ago. If you're old enough, I bet you also considered him guilty of being Ivan the Terrible when that trial had started. And you're saying that my mind is closed!!!! You sound like kinniku (too much in fact).
grafton at 01:10 PM JST - 16th July

sabiwabi at 12:43 PM JST - 16th July

In answer to your two points.

If I were arrested in a case of mistaken identity I (ME) would do my best to prove who I was. Demjanjuk failed to do that because to do so proved he was someone almost as bad as Ivan the terrible. Whatever the legal system we are ultimately responsible for our own lives. By failing to identify himself he left himself open to a misinterpretation that very nearly cost him his life. That was his doing, not the courts.

“How do you know. The trial is not yet finished.”

I don’t know, but what I reason is that if there wasn’t much evidence nobody would take the risk of putting this man on trial again, not after the last time. The very fact that they are doing tell s me that this time they really must having some very damning evidence. Even you must be able to work that one out. And yes I am old enough to remember the last trial. But I saw little reason to pay very much attention to it, so can remember little about it.

Now let me try again at asking you a question. Demjanjuk in the general scheme of things was only a little person, & assuming he is who they now say he is, he is still not one of the real bad guys. So why do you think there is this conspiracy of nations to convict him?
sabiwabi at 02:04 PM JST - 16th July

Grafton,

Your reasoning seems to go against innocent until proven guilty: he was guilty until he could prove that someone else was Ivan. That is a strange form of justice.

if there wasn’t much evidence nobody would take the risk of putting this man on trial again, not after the last time.

Don't forget that last time, they not only brought him to trial, they sentenced him to death!

The very fact that they are doing tell s me that this time they really must having some very damning evidence.

It tells me that they really want to get this guy, especially considering that German and American government officials conspired to fake documents and deceive the Israeli court.

Demjanjuk in the general scheme of things was only a little person, & assuming he is who they now say he is, he is still not one of the real bad guys. So why do you think there is this conspiracy of nations to convict him?

Well, I already explained several times on previous threads about how this might be meant to keep people who know what truly went on in the camps quite. Or might also be to add credibility to their story, a bit like how they continue to bring people to trial for conspiring to commit 9-11 (completely irrelevant people).

And yes he was only a very little person, which brings me to wonder whether in a few or several decades they will also go after all the little people of the IDF connected with the recent (and not so recent) crimes against humanity. Hmmm, interesting thought!
BeaverCleaver at 11:25 PM JST - 16th July

Okay, I am breaking my word. This deserves a reply. Yes, yes, I know that kinniku is jotting this down on the back page of his copy of "How to conduct a primary school playground argument" for posterity. "Scribble, scribble...BC broke his word on..."

kinniku-"Sigh, First of all, the five years has nothing to do with the terms overturned or aquitted."

Not sure what that is supposed to mean. But after reading the snippets from the articles you provided and checking a dictionary, it does turn out that the word acquitted just means the charges were dismissed, and the timing is irrelevant. Not being in the legal profession I thought it was only during the trial and was incompatible with a conviction. So I was wrong about something, and I admit it. And yes, I know kinniku is writing that down too, and I am bound to hear about it in 8 months time in a thread about poison cookies or something. Since kinniku never admits he is wrong, he never is. (Sure.)

However, it still does not change the fact that Sabi explained very accurately when he said "conviction was over-turned" and you glossed it over with the more general term acquitted to make it sound like he was never convicted in the first place. He was convicted. He sat on death row for 5 years. It is a relevant fact. Yeah, they decided he was not Ivan in the end, but only after they DECIDED HE WAS IVAN, and that stood for five years. That is what Sabi pointed out, and what you glossed over.

"What exactly have you found so offensive about my comments?"

One is explained above. But understand it was primarily your question "Don't you even read what you wrote?" that bothered me. Sabi was accurate. And you attitude there and elsewhere left much to be desired. See you around kinniku and don't forget to remind me when next we meet of all the mistakes I have made, as if I never admitted one before I met you.
BeaverCleaver at 11:29 PM JST - 16th July

grafton-"Demjanjuk failed to do that because to do so proved he was someone almost as bad as Ivan the terrible. "

Just being a guard at a death camp does not make one "almost" as bad as Ivan the Terrible.

Again I ask, what exactly did he do? As a Russian held by the Germans as a POW, what choice did he have?

It seems many people want to hang him just for being a guard. Its not nearly enough.
kinniku at 06:42 AM JST - 17th July

BC,

However, it still does not change the fact that Sabi explained very accurately when he said "conviction was over-turned" and you glossed it over with the more general term acquitted to make it sound like he was never convicted in the first place. He was convicted. He sat on death row for 5 years. It is a relevant fact. Yeah, they decided he was not Ivan in the end, but only after they DECIDED HE WAS IVAN, and that stood for five years. That is what Sabi pointed out, and what you glossed over.

I did not gloss over the fact that the conviction was overturned. I mentioned it before the very post you keep referring to...I did not gloss over the fact that he was in jail for 5 years. I have clearly discussed this point in this thread as well. Again, maybe you are reading what I wrote, but it sure does not seem like it. I wrote specifically why I responded the way I did and you 'glossed over' that in your response above...Sabiwabi was suggesting that Mr. Demjanjuk could never be treated fairly or justly and pointed to the 5 years in jail and the incorrect conviction. I pointed out that the conviction was overturned and Mr. Demjanjuk was aquitted. So, I am sorry, but you are mistaken in this regard as well and so was Sabiwabi...
kinniku at 06:49 AM JST - 17th July

Sorry, even though I used the quote function, it did not seem to work. The first paragraph is BC's.

Also:

But after reading the snippets from the articles you provided and checking a dictionary, it does turn out that the word acquitted just means the charges were dismissed, and the timing is irrelevant. Not being in the legal profession I thought it was only during the trial and was incompatible with a conviction. So I was wrong about something, and I admit it.

I appreciate you admitting it. However, maybe now you might consider admitting that you might be the rabid dog you were referring to with this comment:

Arguing with you is like trying to train a dog that has rabies. I wrote down your errors. A conviction over-turned is not an acquittal, certainly not after spending 5 years on death row.

and this one:

One is explained above. But understand it was primarily your question "Don't you even read what you wrote?" that bothered me.

I was bothered by the fact that it was Sabiwabi 'glossing over' the fact that the conviction was overturned and Mr. Demjanjuk was aquitted. That is was I meant and I have explain this several times...

It is not that you make mistakes, it is that you insult people as you do with comments about mental instability or them putting too much sugar in their kool aid etc before you even check if they have made a mistake or not...and I hadn't...
sabiwabi at 11:15 AM JST - 17th July

I was bothered by the fact that it was Sabiwabi 'glossing over' the fact that the conviction was overturned and Mr. Demjanjuk was aquitted.

Glossing over? What the...

I mentioned that he was sentenced to death and he spent 5 years of his life on death row because they were convinced that he was Ivan the Terrible. That decision was overturned only when they could prove that someone else was Ivan. I never criticized the Israeli court, but it seems you want us to praise them for their fairness.

If you want us to stop “glossing over” the Israeli court’s “great fairness”, you might want to stop writing that he was treated fairly or that he got justice. The only time that happened was at the moment the conviction was overturned.

I am glad others have caught on to your irritating childish behavior. Hopefully you'll change it, but I doubt it.
kinniku at 06:36 PM JST - 17th July

Glossing over? What the...

. I never criticized the Israeli court, but it seems you want us to praise them for their fairness.

Yeah, sure you didn't criticize them. I guess someone else was using your user name and password when they wrote:

In the previous TRIAL, they provided "evidence" and "witnesses" to prove that he was Ivan. At that TRIAL, he was sentenced to death and he spent years on death row. His family worked very hard and were able to identify the real Ivan. That is the only reason they let him go. If his family did not work so hard (and get lucky) to find the real Ivan, he would have been executed as a result of that TRIAL. I wonder what happened to all those who LIED at the previous TRIAL.

It is clear from the previous trial that some people just wanted to see someone hang for the alleged holocaust and they made up evidence and got eye witnesses to say whatever was needed to say to get the guy executed.

Lastly, you started things off in May when you wrote at 06:27 PM JST on 12th May:

Fair shake my butt, he remained 4 years on death row. This was not an honest mistake, they were willing to execute an innocent man for a clear purpose.

So, sorry, but you were criticizing the Israeli court clearly and plainly...

you might want to stop writing that he was treated fairly or that he got justice.

Sorry, but he did finally get justice. Even his family thought so as reported in the LA Times link I kindly provided...

Childish behaviour would be making claims that you do not and can not back up such as claiming there was dishonesty at the trials in Israel. I have provided clear and provable reasons why I have said what I have said and my proof does not rely on racist conspiracy websites or message board. I would say that is the height of maturity.
kinniku at 06:43 PM JST - 17th July

Oh there was more of your criticisms of the Israeli court...

When I suggested he was given a fair shake at trial, at 12:45 PM JST on 13th May, you replied with:

If he was given a fair shake, he never would have received a death sentence in the first place.

So, yes indeed you did criticize the Israeli court...
sabiwabi at 08:21 PM JST - 17th July

So, sorry, but you were criticizing the Israeli court clearly and plainly...

Actually, no! Reread those quotes. You'll see that I was not criticizing the Israeli court. Better yet, reread my entire posts to get the proper context.

Sorry, but he did finally get justice.

Wow! How can anyone take you seriously.
kinniku at 09:26 PM JST - 17th July

Actually, no! Reread those quotes. You'll see that I was not criticizing the Israeli court.

If he was given a fair shake, he never would have received a death sentence in the first place.

I read those quotes again and it was the Israel court that passed down the death sentence you were referring to.

This was not an honest mistake, they were willing to execute an innocent man for a clear purpose.

Again, the execution order came from the Israeli court and you are claiming they did not make an honest mistake.

Hey, in addition at 02:12 PM JST on 11th April you wrote:

Wow, they were ready to execute him because they had "irrefutable evidence" proving he was Ivan.

Again, the 'they' is the Israeli court that ordered the execution order.

This whole thing is another clear signal to all those who know what really happened in the camps to stay silent.

Here you are claiming that this trial will be some sort of signal as the previous trial was. Note the word 'again'.

at 05:13 PM JST on 15th April you wrote:

He was wrongly sentenced to death, and his sentence was only overturned because they identified the real Ivan the Terrible. What happened to all those who testified (lied!) against him. Why should we expect that he would be treated fairly in future trials? It is clear that they want to execute more "Nazis" to give a clear signal to others who know what really happened in the camps to remain quite.

Of course you don't think he was treated fairly in the Israeli trial. Right above again you state that based on the Israeli court's trial you do not expect him to be treated fairly in future trials.

Wow! How can anyone take you seriously.

Because I deal in facts. I don't need fantasies, conspiracies or racist websites or message boards to make my points. Again, here is the quote from Mr. Demjanjuk's son-in-law who agrees with my take that justice was finally done when Mr. Demjanjuk was aquitted.

"Ed Nishnic, Demjanjuk's son-in-law who flew to Ohio Monday night from Israel to hear the decision, said that the family was "elated" with the decision, according to the Associated Press. "We feel that justice was done today. I believe that the Israeli court must let him go," Nishnic said."

Of course, as you know the Israeli court did let him go. I totally agree with Mr. Nishnic. Justice was done.
sabiwabi at 06:57 PM JST - 21st July

Yes, the Israeli court sentenced him to death. But I have clearly placed the blame on those people and governments that conspired to provide faked documents and lying "eyewitnesses". Did I ever accuse the Israeli court of doing that? No! The only criticism of the Israeli court that I might have hinted at was for them not going after those who deceived the court.

"We feel that justice was done today. I believe that the Israeli court must let him go," Nishnic said."

Of course, as you know the Israeli court did let him go. I totally agree with Mr. Nishnic. Justice was done.

Notice, that Nishnic said:"We feel that justice was done TODAY." You shouldn't need to distort things this way to prove a point (if you had a decent point to prove).
kinniku at 10:04 AM JST - 22nd July

Yes, the Israeli court sentenced him to death.

Yes, and you had been incorrectly complaining about the lack of fairness when the court was clearly reacting to evidence given to them.

But I have clearly placed the blame on those people and governments that conspired to provide faked documents and lying "eyewitnesses".

Yes, your fantasies again. However, it seems you are completely unable to provide any evidence of what you claim are 'faked documents' and purposefully lying witnesses. Oh, racist websites and message boards don't count.

The only criticism of the Israeli court that I might have hinted at was for them not going after those who deceived the court.

One of my criticisms of your ever-strange line of thought is that you have never ever proven that witnesses 'deceived' anyone in this trial.

Now, you can dance around all you want, however you did suggest that the previous trial was not fair and that that leads you to believe the next one will not be fair as well. As I have pointed out many times, when the Israeli court was provided with new evidence they overturned the conviction. That is certainly being fair. You squawk back that the Israeli court 'had not choice' because of the new evidence. Of course they had 'no choice'. As a court that wanted to see justice done, as evidenced by their actions through out the trial, they reacted by aquitting Mr. Demjanjak because it was the correct thing to do.

Notice, that Nishnic said:"We feel that justice was done TODAY." You shouldn't need to distort things this way to prove a point (if you had a decent point to prove).

Ummm...I TYPED what you quoted above. It was MY quote. It INCLUDED the word TODAY. I TYPED the word TODAY. I agree with the sentiments because I agree with the FACT that justice was finally done. That was my POINT all along. As always, there was NO distortion on my part.

As I said, I deal in facts. I don't need fantasies, conspiracies or racist websites or message boards to make my points. Pity you cannot say the same.