Democrats lack enough health care votes
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RomeoRamenII
Democrats lack enough health care votes
The democrats have been pushing Obamacare for a year now. With 75 percent of Americans not wanting it, it's time they admit defeat.
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SushiSake3
"75%" - Romeo, where did you get this number from?
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goodDonkey
SushiSake3, c'mon I think we know he really meant 750% of Americans.
It ain't over yet!
I think failure to pass this legislation will hurt the Democrats. I also think passing it will hurt some Democrats in the fall. However I think the party gets the most damage from failure to pass this legislation.
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goodDonkey
If it does pass the House and the Senate tries to revise much of it, it will end up in a procedural fight. The referee, if you will, will be a Senate Parliamentarian. If it passes the House, it WILL go to reconciliation. The man who will figure out how the rules are interpreted will be Alan S. Frumin. I hope we get that far. The procedural fights will be extremely interesting.
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RomeoRamenII
SS3: Google is your friend.
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goodDonkey
RomeoRamenII at 09:59 AM JST - 15th March
When you grow up and go to college is that what you are going to write in the footnotes when your professors ask for references?
Figures you would expect the reader to look up your resources. Or maybe you don't think your sources could stand up to public scrutiny?
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RomeoRamenII
Political strategist David Axelrod said Democrats will persuade enough lawmakers to vote “yes.”
Heh, only a liberal would believe anything coming from a guy who was John Edwards' campaign spokesman.
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5SpeedRacer5
If it does not pass, what does this say about the US? Have the Democrats failed the public, or have the Republicans done so? You know what I think? I think I don't care anymore. America is clearly getting what it wants and deserves. Its misguided priorities are clear. The flaws in the legislative processes are glaring. How much worse does it have to get before it gets better? Clearly, very much worse.
Enjoy the ride. If things are not going to change with the US or the American people, then what else is going to change to bring the US back to what it was? The rest of the world? Don't bet on it.
Whether the Democrats have enough votes is ultimately a moot point. Americans have lost all enthusiasm for change and improvement. That loss will be on the ledger no matter how this vote comes out.
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goodDonkey
RR, I have already focused on this article. I just think that if you are going to quote statistics you should back them up with a valid reference. I am not the only one who has requested your sources. Besides you were the one keeping the thread going by stating that Google is your friend. Then when challenged on that you insult me. So typical.
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Odogma
What "ledger" ? Your country's ? America leads the world in medical science and innovation, diagnostics and therapeutics. Those accomplishments are benefits of the free market system. What America needs is for consumers and patients to have free market choices in health care.
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vulcan
Yes, but 12 million are illegal aliens others fall into the category of not being able to afford it, choosing not to buy into their company program or to not buy it because they feel they don't need it.
It is too expensive but they should try the republican proposal first and allow competition between insurance companies regardless of state and put a cap on lawsuits... in addition to allowing more doctors.
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goodDonkey
How many votes are they short of 216? I think the "votecounters" are usually secretive about how many votes are in the undecided column when a vote is this close and as crucial as this vote is.
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ca1ic0cat
If there was a reasonable bill on the table it would stand a chance of passage. If the democrats can't even get the bill through the representatives it would seem that the bill is far too extreme.
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Odogma
One-sixth of the US economy faces nationalization, and at the hands of an administration and cabinet with the least private sector experience of any in US history, because they are collectivists at heart. The Democrat Party plans to pass a bill the public can't see (Dems lied again, saying it would be posted online...) and that has not been voted on. The so-called Slaughter Solution is unconstitutional, but the New Left ideologues who have hijacked the party don't care. It is and always was all about power with these people. Moderate Democrats can't stop the totalitarian urge that has gripped their party since the days of Wilson. Jonah Goldberg is right:Liberal Fascism is the only label that fits. This is a power grab by a gang of tyrants, the gravest Constitutional crisis since the Civil War.
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skipthesong
the saddest thing about all of this is that what is being proposed is hardly what even the most staunches supporters of this bill want. It will amount to little and bring our costs even higher. Its becoming a pass at all costs issue, imo, just for the sake of political victory. The are some good dems who I would like to see keeping their offices, but who are going to pay a vulgar price because of this in Nov.
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SushiSake3
Odogma, it's a valid point. Romeo used a Limpbough quote last week, then made a claim today (75% oppose reform..).' that s/he could not back up when I and GoodDonkey question him/her about. We have every right to question other posters' sources to help keep debates as closely as possible based on facts, not fiction.
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Odogma
Yahoo (Mar 9) quotes the AP:
"More than four in five Americans [ that would be MORE than 75 percent... ] say it's important that any health care plan have support from both parties. And 68 percent say the president and congressional Democrats should keep trying to cut a deal with Republicans rather than pass a bill with no GOP support."
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Molenir
Thats putting it mildly. And considering they have an overwhelming majority in the House, its not Republicans that are blocking this bill, but rather Dems. But then Dems have had all the power until the bluest of blue states dared to tip the scales against the Obama. Considering its one of the few states that has universal health care, and that Brown campaigned on stopping it, it speaks volumes about what Americans, particularly those who have experienced it, want.
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Odogma
Agreed. Anyone still urging Obama and the ideologues to 'ram it down their throats' cares not for ordinary Americans or democracy but for the political fortunes of the most un-American president ever elected.
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adaydream
Has Nancy Pelosi called for a vote yet? When she does, we'll see what we get. < :-)
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skipthesong
Has Nancy Pelosi called for a vote yet? When she does, we'll see what we get" I thought you said you read the bill and agree with it!!??
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Sarge
"The United States is the only major industrialized nation without a comprehensive health care plan"
That's because the United States is the only major industrialized nation that doesn't want government-run health care.
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adaydream
Sarge, when you live in Japan you really have no idea what America wants. You don't talk to Americans without health care. You read those blogs and news stories without the true facts that they don't address.
Those companies that have lost their health care insurance, those people who have lost their jobs and lost their health care.
But when you live in Japan where socialized health care is available and people who need health care, have it when they need it. But you're real good about telling those who don't have health care in the US, they can suffer I don't care. That's what comes across. < :-)
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adaydream
I simply love hearing hypocrites like Congressman Lyndsey Graham crying that the process that the democrats are attempting to use is sleazy. Wow, I never heard a single republican call it sleazy when they passed the bush tax cuts (in a time of war) and the Rx drug program using reconciliation. < :-)
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Molenir
With Bipartisan support. You neglected to mention that aspect. They may not have had 60 votes, but they had more then a few Dems supporting the bills. Unlike this. And the Bush tax cuts were not passed during a time of war. That happened pre-9-11. The prescription drug program was bashed by Dems for not going far enough, and by Conservatives for being implemented at all. The only way it could pass was with reconciliation. Too many Republicans and Democrats both, were opposed to it. Its turned out to be far more expensive then predicted (of course) and would have been better off not being passed at all.
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adaydream
Molenir in one word: WRONG
Please be my guest are enlighten yourself. < :-)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JobsandGrowthTaxReliefReconciliationActof2003
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Molenir
Please by all means prove me wrong. The link you provided though doesn't lead anywhere. Might want to change it. Try this link if you like. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EconomicGrowthandTaxReliefReconciliationActof2001
As I said, pre-9-11.
Or you might look into when 'Jumpin' Jim Jeffords became Independent, and why. I'll clue you in though, it happened in 2001, shortly after Bush became President, Republicans lost control of the Senate because of it. And amazingly enough, the Bush tax cuts were forced through congress with yes, bipartisan support. Oddly enough, they followed the Byrd Rule, a rule that allows for Reconciliation to be used on budget measures. Something that the health care bill has nothing to do with.
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Molenir
Heh, did a little more research. Think I found what you're referring to.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JobsandGrowthTaxReliefReconciliationActof2003
This basically accelerated the pace at which the tax cuts passed in 2001 would kick in. Since they were set to expire mostly in 2010, some people wanted to either make the cuts permanent, or push up when they became effective.
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Molenir
Still, every single time reconciliation has been used. Up until now that is, it has had broad bi-partisan support. The tax cuts were no exception. Assuming the House passes the Senate bill, and the Senate agrees to take up the Houses corrections, a longshot at best, this would be the first time reconciliation has been used on a bill that most people in America oppose, and that not one single person from the minority party was willing to support.
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adaydream
It makes no difference when and how reconciliation has been used, it's been used.
I think 12+ times by the republicans and 5 times by the democrats.
But we have the whining republicans calling it sleazy. Only sleazy when the democrats use it.
The tax breaks in 2003 were a new set of tax breaks. Get it correct. The tax breaks given in the first weren't good enough, bush had to start a war based on lies and then run another set of tax breaks by reconciliation again.
So if reconciliation can be used for tax breaks in time of war, then it's good enough for the health care reform bill. < :-)
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Sarge
adaydream - Could you give us a link for a poll that shows that a majority of Americans ( living in America, not Japan ) support the Democrat health care reform legislation? Thanks.
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Sarge
What's the problem? Aren't there enough Democrats in the Congress?
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Molenir
Or maybe its only sleazy when used in a partisan way for which it was never intended. When its used to pervert the legislative process to ram through a bill that almost no one outside the Presidents immediate circle actually want. For those who actually have read the bill, even fewer want it. Well, unless you work for an insurance company, then oddly enough, you're all for this bill. Despite what the President and Dems saying, this is one of the biggest giveaways in history. And what it won't do, is what the President claims, bring down costs. In that it will fail spectacularly.
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adaydream
Sarge, You'll see it pass by reconciliation. there will be your poll. < :-)
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adaydream
If there was some sleazy way that the republicans could find to stop the democrats, they'd use it in a heartbeat. Congressman Boehme (sp) already said that he'd use something if he could to stop the democrats, but there isn't anything. Gosh darn. < :-)
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Molenir
Damn right, and 70% of Americans would applaud them for it.
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techall
The poll will come in November when all congressmen will be judged by their constituants as to whether they represented their districts correctly with their vote on this.
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