Diplomatic flurry ahead of Palestinian U.N. bid
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32 Comments
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-2
Asagao
The vote will be a good way to see which countries support the human rights abuses carried out on the Palestinians.
0
Ben_Jackinoff
Nah sw, the vote will be a good way to see which countries support Hamas.
-3
CptCrunch
Ben. You totally forgot the simple fact that most Palestine supporters support Fatah and still recognize them as the legit leaders of all Palestine.
-2
Ben_Jackinoff
It does not matter whether most Palestine supporters are out of touch with reality.
0
TumbleDry
How can you negotiate when one party is still eating territory and the other one is still firing rockets.
If Palestine is declared independent, this should freeze all settlements and maybe even helps to dismantle some. In the other hand, if rockets are still fired, well, any incursion in the Palestinian state will be an invasion of a sovereign country and rockets fired will be seen as an attack of an another sovereign country (which is not the case now because Palestine has no status)
One could hope that a Palestinian state would stop rockets or other terrorist attacks. The next challenge is to let Palestinians build a real economy and get away from fundamentalism. Hope it is not only an utopia...
So, who has more to loose? Israel.
The US should step aside and let them resolve their problem themselves. Yeah... well... won't happen. Same for the rockets...
1
RossBardJapan
A rush is necessary.Obama will be a one-term president.
1
CptCrunch
Well Tumbledry, if Palestine is recognized so will her right to have a real military. Of course all deals will go to Fatah. Then Fatah might have a chance to clean up Hamas as an internal problem. Even NATO might get involved.
Or if the rockets continue, Israel will have more support to invade Gaza. Then when they withdraw Fatah can pick up the pieces.
-2
Asagao
Palestinanians don't do terror attacks, they have a right to fight back against national socialist and religious extreme ly fundamentalist Jewish settlers. Hamas won the last election. It is a good thing to have Hamas and Fatah...that is what democracy is about.
2
kurisupisu
The Palestinians deserve a state the same way that the Israelis do. Maybe, if the Palestinians had a voice at the UN then that might lead Israel to respect the Palestinians more.
Recently, Israel is becoming a loose cannon that needs to be muzzled some.
Witness, the killing of Egyptian border guards and the storming of ships carrying peace activists, nine of whom died with many injured too,this event happened in international waters too.
These events have led to the expulsion of the Israeli diplomats in Turkey and Egypt-not a good sign.But this is a sign which shows Israel acting outside accepted norms.
The Palestinian people need access to the UN for many reasons........
-2
Ben_Jackinoff
Yeah sw, they do.
-1
Asagao
@kurisupisu. Yes, and these are only international acts of terrorism. Almost everyday acts of abuse are perpetrated against Palestinians. Just check UN resolutions, Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International reports etc. It is about time we address this dire situation created by the League of Nations at the end of WWII.
-1
Ben_Jackinoff
Simple sw, stop the rockets and stop the violence. Hamas needs to stop wanting to destroy and start wanting to build peace. You know that. BTW, it was the UN, not the League of Nations that voted on partition at the end of WWII. The Israeli government is abysmal. However, Hamas are no angels no matter how much people attempt to paint wings and halos on them.
1
CptCrunch
The Pals do do terror. So do the Israelis. But it can be said the Pals do terror because Israel oppresses them. I don't condone terror in any case, but I will always support the oppressed over the oppressor.
Ben, violence is not all that is at stake here, which is why the rockets continue. What you are saying is the beatings will end when you stop resisting, but you will remain in your cage in any case. Its nonsense. Everyone is different. Some will see sense in not resisting. For others resisting will be the only way to keep their mental health.
0
SuperLib
The choice is usually revenge or peace process.
0
Ben_Jackinoff
That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is Hamas must stop waging war and start working for peace. Hamas would not be oppressed if they were not waging war and neither would Gazans. It is about time Hamas and their ilk chose peace. Not doing so would be and is complete nonsense.
-1
Ben_Jackinoff
Yes. It can also be said that pigs have wings and fly. However, both would be incorrect. In Hamas' case they desire Israel's destruction and are actively working toward that goal. Were they to choose peace, peace they would get.
3
kurisupisu
So, the answer is to give the Palestinians access to forums where their rights are respected and democratic processes can be implemented-no?
0
Asagao
@Ben. Thank you for your comments and I now understand...why was I so stupid??? And I thought only 1.5 million (which was 1.5 million too many) jews killed in Europe (not Palestine) was a conservative figure compared to the 4.5 million massacred according to the people who regularly kill Palestinians. Maybe the victims should give their houses forever to the occupiers and 20% of Jews who come from Russia or Ethiopia etc. Maybe Palestinians should give them free electricity and gas and water. Sorry no olives, the Israeli bulldozers demolished them...
0
TheQuestion
If Palestine gets statehood and a rocket fired by Hamas, that country's elected leaders, kills some Israeli’s it's no longer an act of militants or terrorists, it's a full-blown act of war. Without a standing peace agreement respected by both sides the recognition of Palestine will only aggravate the situation. At best nothing will happen, the blockade will remain in place and Hamas will brood over their hollow victory. At worst a misstep will lead to open war.
Nothing good will come of this. I just hope nothing awful happens either.
I recall those peace activists descending on Israeli troops with clubs and knives the second they got on the ship. They knew the Israelis would come to inspect the ship, that's what happens in a blockade, but their actions prevented what should have been a routine search.
1
lucabrasi
@TheQuestion
No it isn't. When UK "Loyalist" terrorists bombed pubs and shops in Dublin, nobody claimed it was an "act of war" by the UK against Ireland. Nobody said that the September 11 attacks were an "act of war" by Saudi Arabia against the US. Terrorists are terrorists, separate from governments (usually).
-1
SuperLib
That's the way it should work, but it won't work that way. Israel and Palestine pretty much have a completely different set of rules from the rest of the world. Sometimes that's good, sometimes it's not so good. What I'm curious about is exactly what Palestine will be. Abbas will be on the scene but I'm not so sure Hamas will accept a government with him as the recognized front man. On the other hand it's obvious people aren't going to let a terrorist organization like Hamas speak at the UN. In the end they'll probably get some kind of formal declaration of statehood and then nothing will change. Lie the article said it will most likely be used as leverage in future negotiations with Israel.
You're right about Ireland and Saudi Arabia, but I'm not so sure you're comparing apples-to-apples with Hamas and the militants. I don't know exactly what it will be but it probably won't be viewed the same. OBL was working to overthrow the Saudi government just as much as he wanted to kill Westerners.
-1
TheQuestion
As other posters have noted Hamas is the ruling party in Palestine and what is their militant arm if not the military of Palestine if it should become a recognized nation? If they want the respect of statehood they need to behave as befits the heads of a state. I don't see that happening.
Like I said, this can go in a number of unsettling directions and I don't think theres a person on this site that would be willing to put money on which.
0
Madverts
Bah. Diplomacy was spent here decades ago.
0
HonestDictator
@Tumbledry you pretty much summed up my thoughts on this. Give Palestine statehood and see how they handle it. If they're wise they'll stop the terrorist attacks and Isreal will recieve backlash for any land grabbing. But if the rockets continue, Isreal will have the right to declare war on Palestinian land AGAIN, and occupy conquered land AGAIN because of stupidity. The ball will be in their court, lets see how its used.
0
Madverts
Or station UN troops around the borders and arm the pals equally to the Jewish state and let 'em slug it out, winner takes all...
Only problem I can see is if the palestinians were to win they'd start killing each other.
Once again I climeth back on the fence.
This won't be sorted in my lifetime methinks!
0
CptCrunch
They were overthrown by Fatah in West Bank and everybody recognizes Fatah as the leader of all Palestine, which is why you don't see Fatah having anything to do with the U.N.
Of course, this only means sheer hypocrisy, as any other time these same people would say the election was won by Hamas fair and square. I don't really care. I would be happy to see even just West Bank gain independence for now. Gaza can be incorporated later.
0
realmind
It is time for a UN approval to Palastine...
0
Ben_Jackinoff
You're welcome sw, however though old habits die hard, rants about Jews and history, etc have nothing to do with this. People recycling the same old and tired arguments don't either. I understand Abbas and Fatah push to the UN. If I were them, I'd do the same thing. I also understand the world forgetting about Hamas will bite them in the rear.
0
Ben_Jackinoff
No. Fatah was always in control of the WB.
The people in Gaza would tend to disagree.
???? Fatah has always been the one representing Palestinians in the UN.
Is this a contest about how many wrong things you can put in one post?
-1
RossBardJapan
Try as I might all I can see here is a non-existent nation petitioning recognition from an unauthorized organization incapable of enforcing any diktat it might issue on the matter.
0
CptCrunch
Yep. Now you are getting it. (I meant to say Hamas is not representing at the U.N.)
So when Fatah lost the elections of 2006 and the Hamas cabinet took over, Fatah was still in control? Like..uh...
0
Ben_Jackinoff
Now** I** am getting it? I am not the one making so many mistakes. It does not take an oracle to tell it like it is and you seem to have no idea what it is like. Fatah never lost control of the WB. Please at least check things before you post so many mistakes. Hamas did win the elections in the occupied territories. They are in control of Gaza.They never had control of the West Bank. Hamas is also extremely popular in Gaza. It is the elephant in the room that will step on all those who choose to ignore it. As you wrote...Like uh (whatever the heck that is supposed to mean)
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