Doctor convicted in failed London, Glasgow attacks
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0
Helter_Skelter
But I thought Islamic terrorism was born out of poverty and ignorance?
0
TooFarGone
In the civilized world, doctors are supposed to heal.
What is it with guys like this, or Al qaeda number 2 - Doctor Ayman al Zwahiri?
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skipthesong
Its scary if you think about it. Normally, we don't don't get to choose out doctors nor do most of us go doctor shopping and do back ground checks.
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bushlover
The mentality of Arabs is illustrated in these guys. And even Indians. This proves that 3rd worlders are really of a different mindset when it comes to the preservation of Life. Now all confidence will be lost in other immigrant Doctors everywhere. I feel for them as most probably have evolved their thinking but it's always the few bad apples that cause the trouble for the rest.
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smithinjapan
Helter: "But I thought Islamic terrorism was born out of poverty and ignorance?"
Those are usually the easiest to recruit, much like for the American military, but neither are limited to said ignorant people. Even the article says it is 'unusual', no? Either way I'm not sure what you sound like you're gloating here; this is something to be upset about, not happy.
"Abdulla represents an unlikely type of militant: a British-born doctor who had pledged an oath to protect human lives. Anti-terrorism officials said Abdulla’s case challenged the British public to broaden their thinking about potential homegrown threats."
bushlover: "The mentality of Arabs is illustrated in these guys", you say, and follow with 'the few bad apples...'. So, which is it? A few bad apples, or all Arabs? or are you suggesting that Arabs are the few bad apples of the human race? If so, you ought to change it to a quarter of the whole harvest, not just 'a few', and you ought to rethink your generalizations.
TooFarGone: "In the civilized world, doctors are supposed to heal."
All too true, which is why it makes it so hard to believe, and would have been so hard to finger this guy as a would-be terrorist before the failed plots. Just goes to show you shouldn't judge a book by its cover. Your average, poor Joe Muslim on a Tikrit street might save your life from the rich British doctor who placed a bomb nearby. Sad state of affairs, all around.
0
SuperLib
I agree with smith in the sense that Muslims who resort to violence is an extremely small number and shouldn't be used as an indication of what Islam is. But where we disagree is on the flip side of that argument. Such a small number of Muslims are terrorists that I don't see how you can place so much blame on Western (or, for smith, just the US) foreign policy. Over a billion Muslims are exposed to Islam and do not turn to violence just as over a billion Muslims are exposed to Western (again, for smith, just the US) foreign policy and do not turn to violence.
So in my eyes saying that Muslims are terrorists because of Islam is the same as saying Muslims are terrorists because of US foreign policy. They numbers just don't prove it.
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Helter_Skelter
smith - no, the word 'unusual' is never used in the article, though not surprising you falsely use quotes. Anyway, it's hardly unusual. Just do a search using the terms "Muslim", "doctor", and "terrorism":
45 Muslim doctors planned US terror raids
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1556553/45-Muslim-doctors-planned-US-terror-raids.html
Your faux concern is so convincing.
Superlib - it's been demonstrated again and again that Islamic terrorism isn't tied to wealth, geography, level of education, governments, gender, etc. The only common thread is the religion of Islam. So, yeah, Muslims are terrorists because of Islam.
0
YangYong
Terrorists aren't terrorists because of anything other than being in a situation that pushes them to this point, this reaction to their position. Were the organisers of the Boston Tea party terrorists or people pushed so far that they had to react in order to free themselves from their perceived shackles? A person becomes a 'terrorist' for a reason and with these people it has nothing to do with the Prophet Muhammed but with their and their peoples position in the world, namely their economic one.
0
Helter_Skelter
So these doctors' economic status pushed them into terrorism? LOL!
0
Muchakucha
YangYong: have you ever read the Koran and noted the blatant incitements to violence therein? Islam has always been at war with the non-Islamic world; that's how Islam spread. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests).
The modern incarnation of this is Islamic terrorism. The only way to stop Islamic terrorism is to convince Islam that it's not at war. The invasion and continued occupation of Iraq makes this impossible of course.
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skipthesong
Terrorists aren't terrorists because of anything other than being in a situation that pushes them to this point, this reaction to their position."
Ah, so the end does justify the means? So, the US and its allies do have an enemy so even Gitmo is justified?
No one wants to paint a picture that Muslims are bad, and in retrospect to the above poster, terrorists are not a "few". What is a few amongst 1.9++Billion people. I am sure its a LOT more than a few, but what is everyone to do? Stop and ask a Muslim if they hate infidels and take it from there or do they put up their guard, regardless how wrong that sounds, or should we all just take it in stride, and NOT look out for Muslims in their Mosques/Group Meeting Places and consider this just a passing event?
Had these guys succeded, quite a large amount of people, including kids, women, and disabled (they didn't care apparently it was clearly on purpose). Now, thanks to this doctor, everyone is going to "naturally" put up a guard against some of the most talented people but can you really blame them?
0
Madverts
I know the incident could have been horrific, were these champions not the losers that they are/were, but I found the Glasgow incident hilarious....to arab terorists on fire along with a snotty cherokee getting their asses kicked by a jock baggage handler.
Priceless.
What isn't so funny however, are the Anti-terrorism officials that said "Abdulla’s case challenged the British public to broaden their thinking about potential homegrown threats."
Let's not forget these are the people who brought us the "45 minute WMD claim", or the "liquid explosives" b/s brought about by Tony Bliar's flailing administration, or the fact that the people issuing these dire warnings, shot Charles Menzies in the face 8 frickin' times and somehow got themselves an open verdict...
0
smithinjapan
Helter: They're called "quotation marks", not quotes. "Quote" is a verb, and "quote" as a noun refers to an estimate on something, usually involving stocks and exchange rates, but not limited to those. It is, admittedly, incorrectly used these days as a noun that is meant to be "quotation". I don't QUOTE anything at all from the article, save where I was showing you that the doctor was "unusual". The word itself, which I intentionally put in single quotation marks, was for emphasis, and within the same comment from time to time for paraphrasing. Pretty anal grammar rules, but hey.
" So, yeah, Muslims are terrorists because of Islam."
That's a quotation from your comment, in case you weren't sure about the marks. Anyway, as usual, you're being foolish. They are not terrorists because of Islam, they are Islamic terrorists; there's a big difference. The former infers that all believers of Islam, but we already know the idiocy of that logic and pretending that 1.4 billion people are terrorists. YOU may believe, that, and you wouldn't be the only one, but that path has proven to be ignorant, and fortunately everyone knows that even a tiny fraction of Islamic believers are terrorists. A tiny tiny tiny tiny fraction of THAT fraction, perhaps.
I suppose you, like TooFarGone said some time back, think all the terrorists in the world are Muslim, too. Took about two seconds to prove that wrong.
SuperLib: "Such a small number of Muslims are terrorists that I don't see how you can place so much blame on Western (or, for smith, just the US) foreign policy"
I don't think I was blaming the West here at all for this man's actions. I did, in my comment, make a stab at one of the other posters in saying that the terrorists' recuiting policies, which ARE often targeting the poor and less educated, are similar to that of the US military. While I may have exaggerated in a few past posts and said that all Islamic militarism (and terrorism) is in response to 'the West', I meant it as an example of a counter to the foolish notion that all terrorists are that way because of Islam or some such thing. In other words, I used it to point out how obviously wrong said commenters are. I do not at all think that terrorists are the way they are because of the West (some are, but not most). Anyway, we agree more than you might think on this.
0
skipthesong
Yeah but Mad I am quite sure the superintendent didn't say what he wanted to and as for the "home grown" part, look, they may have been born the in the UK, there really aren't British. Now before you go off the deep handle, what I mean is that their families immigrated and made damn sure that their culture and religion is above all. Now, if we took where these people hail from and immigrated there, you know damn well you would not be considered one of them and they pretty much have laws preventing you from doing so...
As much as many would like to welcome them into their country, they themselves aren't being too much of guests. (I am basing this on religion and what I have seen from the UK and not basing this on race or origin.)
0
Muchakucha
smithinjapan: thanks for the English lesson
I think you mean imply, not infer. Look those words up. But hey.
Islam preaches violence and urges Muslims to kill non-believers. I've already shown you the relevant verse, but you seem to choose to ignore the evidence. However, even though Islam preaches violence, not all Muslims are receptive to that message, which explains why not all Muslims are terrorists, or even supporters of terrorists. But that doesn't alter the fact that Islam preaches violence.
0
Madverts
And pre-revised christians weren't up to these antics?
Islam isn't itself the real problem - it's those using Islam as a pretext to get what they want.
0
Madverts
"Islam preaches violence and urges Muslims to kill non-believers"
Sorry, forgot the quote.
0
Madverts
Skip,
What I don't understand is why now? They've been living in the UK for over half a century without Islamic terrorism rearing it's ugly head.
The over-reaction to 9-11 really has given a lot of johnnies the impression of a war against Islam, rather than a war on terror.
0
sabiwabi
Will those responsible for the deaths of Bilal Abdulla's loved ones ever be convicted? We can always hope!
What would push "a British-born doctor who had pledged an oath to protect human lives" to do such a thing? I don't think its Islam.
0
Muchakucha
Nothing in Christian teachings urges violence. You've heard of 'love your enemies'. Contrast that to Koran [47.4] "So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them..."
USA and UK foreign policies are the catalyst which spark Muslims to obey the teachings of the Koran and kill non-believers.
0
Madverts
"What would push "a British-born doctor who had pledged an oath to protect human lives" to do such a thing?"
Brain-washing. And a dose of stupidity.
Killing innocent people in a revenge attack is the height of selfishness. It's like a friend being killed in a road traffic incident and me going out on a bender with the AK47 indiscriminately hosing down motorists.
0
Madverts
much, one word for ya.
Crusades.
Next.
0
skipthesong
What I don't understand is why now? They've been living in the UK for over half a century without Islamic terrorism rearing it's ugly head." Because its gaining momentum at the moment? The war of course is a big factor and not for nothing, but they have garnered a lot of tolerance, again due to the war.
The over-reaction to 9-11 really has given a lot of johnnies the impression of a war against Islam, rather than a war on terror." Well, if you look around, you will notice that many, many followers of Islam are equally guilty of this impression. That hooked guy in London sure as heck isn't helping the people of the UK think otherwise. Why should they? He basically has a whole lot of suppport.
0
skipthesong
Sabi, according to Wiki, his friend was killed by a shiia death squad, so I think you ranting to the wrong people!
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Madverts
"He basically has a whole lot of suppport."
It's hard to tell how much support they have.
But I think the hook-handed bastard has been dealt with...hasn't he?
0
cleo
Hey, if we're throwing quotes around, let's have a look at the end of this one -
.... then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. (Translation by Shakir)
Now I take that to mean that when you find yourself in a battle fighting against someone who doesn't follow your religion, don't kill them, but take them prisoner and let them go after the war is over. Gosh, now that is really radical.
There are some versions that translate 'hitting the neck' as 'behead' but that cannot be correct; there'd be no point taking them prisoner or setting them free if they had no heads.
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sabiwabi
We should not give Wiki so much credibility, especialy in matters relating to the middle east.
The article above says that Abdulla blamed the West for the deaths of friends and relatives in the 1991 Gulf War and the 2003 invasion.
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cleo
Oops, forgot to give the link -
http://islamawakened.com/quran/47/4/default.htm
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skipthesong
sabi, I didn't say when they were killed, I just said according to wiki. You are into these people and will defend till no end regardless of guilt or innocence.
0
Muchakucha
Madverts: You seem to be unable to distinguish between the actions of people who claim to be doing something in the name of a particular religion, and the actual teachings of that religion.
Next
0
Muchakucha
cleo: don't you think it's at least curious that the religious text that defines Islam in the present day should be even talking about war, prisoners, ransoms, smiting of necks etc? Not to mention the verse which clearly advocates wife beating (4:34). Doesn't sound like a very peaceful religion.
This isn't to say the all Muslims want to go smiting necks and beating their wives. However, the teachings are there, in the Koran, clear as day. And it's difficult for free-thinking Muslims to criticise these barbaric 7thC teachings because they'd be accused of apostacy, for which the penalty is death.
0
YangYong
Terrorists aren't terrorists because of anything other than being in a situation that pushes them to this point, this reaction to their position. Were members of the IRA driven to do what they did because they were Catholics? No. Were the organisers of the Boston Tea party terrorists, or people pushed so far that they had to react in order to free themselves from their perceived shackles? A person becomes a 'terrorist' for a reason and with these people it has nothing to do with the Prophet Muhammed but with their and their peoples position in the world, namely their economic one. If someone and their people are content, secure and not threatened they do not usually kill, injure, bomb... Western foreign policy must start taking this into account in fact it has...
0
Muchakucha
I find it simply staggering that when terrorists go to their deaths yelling 'Allah is the greatest', and use Koranic teachings to justify their actions; and when Muslim clerics also justify the terrorists' actions by reference to Koranic teachings; and when Shi'ites and Sunnis accuse each other of heresy and blow each other to pieces; and when terrorist behead hostages in exactly the same way that Muhammed beheaded 800 captive Jews in 627, people fail to spot that this all has something to do with Islam, the 'Religion of Peace'.
0
Muchakucha
Islamic terrorists routinely justify their actions by reference to Koranic verses. Why is this so difficult for you to see?
I agree that the USA and UK's astoundingly stupid foreign policy has given terrorists a motive, but it's the Koran which actually justifies their terrorism in their eyes, and in the eyes of Islamic clerics.
0
YangYong
So in turn it amazes that posters here think they know more than the detectives involved in the case: Police say it was the men's increasing anger about the situation in Iraq that was the driving force behind the attacks. Abdulla, the ring leader, told the court he had been shocked by the brutality of Western forces in his homeland. Friends who knew him in Cambridge said he became increasingly militant after one of his closest friends at university in Iraq was killed by a militiaman.
0
Muchakucha
cleo: I'm glad you posted that link. I encourage everyone to read the Koran. The issue of Islamic terrorism and jihad would then be understood by all.
0
likeitis
Terrorism is born out of many things. Deprivation is one. Not only of wealth, but in this case, loved ones. And no, for many of us, wealth does not adequately replace loved ones.
Something you seem to have missed is the fact that this guy gave a reason for his attempts at terrorism, and it wasn't because he found justification for it in the Koran.
As another pointed out, it is sad you feel the need to gloat, as if you even have half a reason to. Many reasons for terrorism were put to you. Your reasons for focusing so much on only two of them have nothing to do with fairness or honestly but merely your own sad need to try and gloat.
And green apples are green because they are......apples? You cannot define a term by using the term in the definition! Of course all Islamic terrorists are Islamic! Did you expect them to turn out to be half Coptic Christian? Of course all green apples are green! Did you think they would turn out to be pears dressed as apples?
Yes, besides pears, apples are one of the most common types of green fruit you see at the supermarket. But if you look, most apples sold are actually red. Stop lumping all the apples together.
A lot of people here do not want to accept that Islam is a religion that often preaches violence. I am not one of them. But Islam DOES NOT preach terrorism on innocents. That is not jihad. It is sanctioned no where in the Koran. If you disagree, quote the Koran and no cop outs this time.
0
skipthesong
The man's anger is justified? Well, then so is mine. He lost a friend, I've lost a few and in one day. I have yet to do anything to anyone of the Muslim faith except offer a cup of tea.
Face it, the fight is not going to end. Soon, no one will have a choice but to choose a side.
0
likeitis
Yes. But having your anger justified is not the same as having your actions justified. The doctor's actions were NOT justified. He should have thrown shoes at some certain people instead, not try to kill people at random.
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likeitis
Terrorism is something that has captured the conciousness of Middle Eastern culture in recent decades much the same as kamikaze captured the conciousness of the Japanese in WWII and gansta captured the conciousness of the inner city. Terror advocates have skated right over Islam to do this while pretending to be true to it, often preying on a surprising ignorance of the Koran. You would think they would know their own darned holy book, but hey, how many Christians really know theirs? How many illiterate Christians through the ages beleived very word the preacher said was an absolute part of Christianity when we all know full well the preacher interprets and exaggerates and embellishes?
I just realized recently that there was a great terror weapon that predated even dynamite recently: gunpowder. How many donkey carts laden with gunpowder blowing up innocents can you remember from history class were planted by Islamic terrorists? Seems on par with a car bomb. Are Middle Easterners just slow or something? They could have been blowing up random people for quite a while.
0
smithinjapan
NO religion is 'right' or 'wrong', it's how people choose to follow what they believe that is right or wrong; in other words, their actions. That goes for Athiests as well, for their belief is no belief, and they believe that so strongly it follows pretty much most of the definitions of what constitutes a religion.
So once again, the fact that his man is a doctor in Britain is shocking to many because, even as Helter_Skelter pointed out in his gloating, and forgive my modifying it to be a little more accurate and PC, not all terrorists are necessarily poor and uneducated Muslims in a faraway place. In this case they are the doctor in the neighbourhood, and they were 'gunning' for you (errr... your average Brit., I should say). Are all believers of Islam terrorists? Not in the least. Does the Koran ask people to commit Koran? Nope, and at any rate no more than the bible excerpts I quoted above. It's how the radicals in these religions or who quote whatever their cause is choose THEMSELVES to twist the words to match their meanings and put said texts above social morays and laws that are the problem.
0
Madverts
"whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death."
Heh, that sounds like the socialist unions in France....
0
SuperLib
Last I checked, Osama Bin Laden isn't a poor man. Neither are the leaders of Hamas, nor the Syrian or Iranian governments. Behind most terrorists acts are a well financed, very privileged group of men who choose the downtrodden to kill innocents on their behalf. They choose the downtrodden because they're easier to manipulate, but those who run the show aren't.
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SuperLib
I don't agree with people like smith who are telling me that Islam plays no part in terrorism. If you have a terrorist act from a Muslim you're going to find that in nearly all cases he's justifying it with teachings from Islam. You can't just remove Islam from the table and say that it's not a part of it. It is....just not the Islam that most people follow.
I don't know what the answer is....but I'm working on it. :)
0
Everton2
I am sick and tired of these sickos seeking to avenge the so called murder of Iraqis. These murders they have blindly attributed to American and British actions in Iraq, yet they ignore the large amount of casualties being leveled on the Iraqi people by El Qaeda. It really defies logic how young Muslims are so easily sucked in by this fundamentally flawed interpretation of Islam. But what is even more frightening is the lack of outcry from the majority of so called moderate Muslims who remain relatively silent in the face of such madness.
0
likeitis
And you have no explanation for why terrorism on random innocents has only been a Muslim thing for 30 odd years rather than since the inception of Islam.
I see a lot of quotes of religious texts here. Do you have some other excuse for your cop out this time?
Moderator: Readers, please do not turn this discussion into a debate on the Koran or any other religious text.
0
likeitis
You are getting very close to the answer Superlib. If you keep thinking like this you will arrive at the same conclusion I have I suspect, but if you come up with an even better answer than mine, more power to you.
Reading this lady's words is one of the things that got me started on the popular culture concept.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BabySuicideBomber#.22BabySuicideBomber.22_photo
I can't say if the Muslim clerics are even trying to stop it, but am sure they would be about as successful as Christian priests and other Christian groups stopping the popularity of gangsta rap and other music with questionable lyrics. The clerics have more to gain in some ways by just going along with it. To do otherwise would just diminish their influence, just as the influence of the church has waned in the west. Some people make the clerics out to be all powerful in how the people conceptualize Islam. They are not. They have to fight for control against people like bin Laden, just like the Christian church has to fight Hollywood and the music industry.
0
sailwind
30 odd years ago a Islamic suicide bomber succeeded in blowing up the Marine barracks in Lebanon under Reagan. Forcing our withdrawal from that country and plunging the country into a civil war, which resulted in Hezballah being the de-facto rulers (still to this day) of the southern portion of that country.
It's been a Muslim thing since then because the reality that was discovered then was this.......And it's simple.
Terrorism WORKED to achieve their goals.
That just the way it is and why we are still dealing with this scurge on Humanity. Deny them the political goal no matter how many bodies they stack up, expose their lies that they are doing it in the name of Islam.
Show that they are doing it only to gain power for their twisted ideals, show them for the petty human beings that they really are. All of us in the West and all moderate muslim voices need to unify behind that.
Then we will make real progress in defeating this scourge.
0
likeitis
Terrorist leaders and financiers are whole different demographic than the foot soldiers. I am sure Yangyong was talking about the foot soldiers. Leaders of anything being from a more privileged backround are a dime a dozen. What is more, the leaders' patriotism and piety are always the most suspect of all of them for anyone who cares to scratch the surface.
0
SuperLib
likeitis I'm going to have to disagree with you. Yangyong said:
He followed it up with this:
He's talking about what creates terrorism overall and isn't making a distinction between those who lead terrorists and those who actually carry out the acts.
0
likeitis
Exactly. The Islam link is a fable generated by those with goals. Sadly, a great many people insist on believing it.
Then we will make real progress in defeating this scourge.
Yes! But its a double-edged sword for our leaders, because so many of them too are only doing what they do for their twisted ideals. They are already reaching too far with hypocrisy as it is. Any such movement at the clear vision you suggest will have to come from the grassroots.
0
SuperLib
I think removing poverty will go a long way to reducing terrorism. I think people like Hamas and Osama Bin Laden will still exist, but they'll have a smaller pool of people to choose from. And we all know Bin Laden and the leader of Hamas won't be blowing themselves up anytime soon.
0
WilliB
Doctor jihad. Now listen to chorus of apologists telling us the cause of terrorism is "poverty".
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WilliB
The pure idiocy of this statement demonstrates why the West is losing against the jihadists.
0
Ah_so
Look at the nationalities of the 9/11 terrorists. Nearly all Saudis.
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likeitis
That was a far cry from run-of-the-mill terrorism though. 9/11 was a unique event.
A major factor that sucks the foot soldiers of terrorism into the role is disaffection. They can be disaffected from many things, and poverty is one of them. So is loss of friends and family. I put popular modern culture of the M.E. up there as well.
Misinterpretation of Islam is also a factor. Many a mental deficient might read that as "Islam is THE cause" but that is not what I said and sure is not true.
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