Former U.S. Defense Secretary Robert McNamara dies at 93

Tuesday 07th July, 06:45 AM JST

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timorborder at 10:51 AM JST - 7th July

McNamara and body counts. War for idiots done by the numbers. Although a very smart individual, I am not unhappy to see his passing. Indeed, 93 years old is a pretty good innings, if you consider all the young people in their 20s who died in Vietnam. If there truly is a heaven and hell, McNamara ain't going to meet St Peter anytime quick.
GJDailleult at 11:11 AM JST - 7th July

not only did this Democrat.....

Robert McNamara was a registered Republican who served in Democratic administrations. Common knowledge, and also easily found on the old internet thing.
SezWho2 at 04:06 PM JST - 7th July

The best and brightest live the longest, their wonders to perform. Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. Still picking up the pieces. And for what?
BeaverCleaver at 06:10 PM JST - 7th July

VOR-"not only did this Democrat screw up the Vietnam War with his body count shennanigans, he and his bean counters totally messed up Ford Motor Co as well."

Let me guess your political affiliation oh ignorant one. Our involvement in Vietnam is owed in a large part to that Repugnican. I give him credit for realizing later that our stragedy was not working and saying it loud and clear and getting the boot for it. But of course I do not expect someone like you to admit the whole thing was a mistake, let alone the way it was carried out. I am sure you still fear a red revolution, because fear is what you folks do best.

It seems that Robert Strange lived a long life and died a painless death in his sleep. I don't know enough about him to say for sure, but a glance at his history suggests a long life was appropriate, but only as long as it was in excruciating pain. Maybe God saved that part for eternity in Hell rather than his shorter stint making hell on Earth?
skipthesong at 06:51 PM JST - 7th July

Our involvement in Vietnam is owed in a large part to that Repugnican." Can you tell me how? According to many older guys I know, they claim that war had more to do with lady bird Johnson's consttruction business and part owner of Bell Helicopter...
BeaverCleaver at 07:09 PM JST - 7th July

Sailwind-"Can you tell me how? According to many older guys I know, they claim that war had more to do with..."

English might not be your first language Sailwind, so let me explain something to you. When someone says something is "owed in a large part to", it makes no claim as to who is most to blame. In fact, several people could have a larger part. A "large part" could be anywhere from 15 percent to almost 50 percent. At fifty percent we sometimes say one is half to blame. But, that being a fine line, some people would might say mostly to blame from there up to 95 percent. Beyond that some would got ahead and say "completely to blame" even though technically that would be 100 percent.

But English being flexible some people might mean "large part" up to 75 percent or more. At any rate, I would make no assumptions about the term. But let me tell you, that I was in the 15 to 50 percent range. I hope you enjoyed your English lesson. Keep at it. I am sure you level will improve with time and practice!

This is from the wiki on MacNamara: "U.S. involvement escalated after the Gulf of Tonkin Incident in August 1964 when North Vietnamese naval vessels were reported as firing on two U.S. destroyers. McNamara was instrumental in selling this event to Congress and the public as a pretext for escalation."

It seems "Our involvement in Vietnam is owed in a large part to that Repugnican. "
yabits at 07:42 PM JST - 7th July

According to many older guys I know, they claim that war had more to do with lady bird Johnson's consttruction business and part owner of Bell Helicopter...

According to many older guys you know? I guess every cocktail lounge has its experts.

If you'd like to crack open a few books, you'll find that the roots of U.S. involvement in the Vietnam war starts in the 1950s with the U.S. funding the French who were trying to hold onto their colony in Indo-China via war. Then after the French defeat and withdrawal -- a critical period between 1954-57, the U.S. played an instrumental role in dividing what had been the single nation of Vietnam into two parts, and established a treaty for the area much like NATO, which committed the U.S. to militarily defend any of the parties who signed. I say parties and not nations, because South Vietnam was not a "nation" that was recognized by European nations or Canada, as being legitimate.

So you can go back and tell those older guys you know that they don't know what they are talking about. Don't be so gullible as to believe anything "older guys" tell you.
sydenham at 07:43 PM JST - 7th July

one of the best and the brightest
skipthesong at 07:44 PM JST - 7th July

beaver: You should have address me in your post, not Sailwind. I asked you to clarify your statement, you failed to do so.

If you are going to say that the Vietnam war was caused in any way by the Republican party, I would ask that you make your accusation clear and not just due to someone registering to vote. It was on Johnson's watch, a Dem. I am not old enough to know what happened. The only info I get about Vietnam is through war movies. If you were around, let us know.
yabits at 09:11 PM JST - 7th July

The only info I get about Vietnam is through war movies.

I thought you said it was via the "older guys" you talk to.

The creation of South Vietnam was accomplished via U.S. policy in the 1950s -- that would be the Eisenhower administration. The SEATO treaty which the U.S. bound and obligated itself to militarily assist the bogus entity known as "South Vietnam" was created by the Eisenhower administration.

The tone of the times was greatly influenced by strong anti-communism of the conservative wings of BOTH parties, and each side vied with each other to demonstrate their anti-communist credentials. To call McNamara a Democrat, or to say that Vietnam was purely a "Democratic Party" war is absolutely ludicrous and shows no knowledge or insight whatsoever.
usaexpat at 11:43 PM JST - 7th July

I bet McNamara would have had a lot fewer regrets had he stayed at Ford instead of being remebered as the architect of the Vietnam War. That said, McNamara actually tried to talk Kennedy out of escalation but lost. The question I have is why did he stay on until 1968 if he really didn't believe in the war?
VOR at 12:47 AM JST - 8th July

Hell I was a registered Democrat for a number of years, that didn't make me a Democrat. McNamara served under Johnson because McNamara was a loyal Democrat and would not have been appointed if he was not. It turned out his boneheadness and his servitude to the Johnson admistration got a lot of our young men killed.

Kennedy (D) got us into Vietnam, Johnson (D) got us in over our head, Nixon (R) got us in even deeper and eventually got us out.
yabits at 01:11 AM JST - 8th July

McNamara served under Johnson because McNamara was a loyal Democrat and would not have been appointed if he was not.

This is false. JFK appointed McNamara and did so because Kennedy admired McNamara and found him to be a Republican he could work with. The election of 1960 was a very close one and Kennedy moved to heal some of the rift by appointing some Republicans to key positions, such as Defense and the Treasury. McNamara chose to serve not because he was a loyal Democrat, but because he was a loyal American.

Any omission of the U.S. role in the 1950s in setting up the stage for the fiasco that became the Vietnam War is nothing but blind partisanship and disloyalty to the truth. What can we expect of someone who claimed to be a "registered Democrat" but also says that didn't make him one?
Taka313 at 04:58 AM JST - 8th July

Yabits,

I have to agree with you, "The Fog of War" is a good documentary. It's been a few years but I remember being quite riveted to the TV as I watched it.

Taka
BeaverCleaver at 09:55 PM JST - 8th July

skipthesong-"beaver: You should have address me in your post, not Sailwind. I asked you to clarify your statement, you failed to do so."

My bad. My apologies to Sailwind.

"If you are going to say that the Vietnam war was caused in any way by the Republican party, I would ask that you make your accusation clear"

I never blamed the Republican party. I laid some blame on a Republican! The one who needs to be clear is you. Please learn to read clearly.

Basically, the war was not partisan from the American side, not as far as the higher-ups are concerned anyway. The only reason I even pointed out MacNamara's party is because VOR tried to accuse him of being a Dem. I never would have done that on my own accord.

But if we are talking low level supporters and protestors of the war, I will bet more Repubs supported and more Dems protested.