France herds Muslim faithful off streets after prayer ban

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  • -15

    CptCrunch

    Gee, they just could not call them an obstruction and quietly move them. No. No. They just had to bow to the rightists and the anti-immigration people and call it an affront to secularism. So what's next? Muslim man prays over his dying wife after a car accident and the French authorities will "put an end to it"?

    Its almost like they enjoy the controversy, anger, and riots.

  • 5

    888naff

    herds? i dont see that happening or in the article

  • 12

    Shefts

    very good! finally a country defends most of its citizens against fanatics hiding behind "free worship". The previous riots just prove that they are right. Muslims want to leave in Europe but are not willing to accept pluralism, free religion (of other faiths), and tolerance. Muslim preachers are using religion and Friday prayers as their stage to preach for hatred and war and not love and acceptance of the other. They should be stopped at any cost before it is too late.

  • 7

    Scorpius

    @Shefts... well said,I live in europe and the situation is exactly as you described...

  • 7

    realmind

    They were just refugees when they arrived and they were ready to live together and accepted all the rules and traditions of France. They enjoyed all the freedom to pray, convert, make money. BUT when the number increased they totaly changed and they want make France a musim country or they want a portion of France autonomus mulim area.. They became fundamentalist once they got enough money and voting power. Means they were acting in the first place to get hold of it.

    This is the same thing Muslims doing in Japan now. Soon you will see a herd of muslim youth with Japanese passport, children of Pakistanis and other third world muslim countires.

    Now these muslims are rich by doing the second hand car sales and they are buying Japanese woman to marry as their second ot third wife in Japan. poor Japanese girls do not know that most of them had wife in thier own countries and thier purpose is to convert and increase Muslim population in Japan.

    But I welcome moderate muslims who speak aganist fundmentalism and hatred to other religions. But we do not see those kind of real muslims which Muhammed ( PBUH) designed .

  • 12

    jforce

    Religion, all religion, should be a private practice limited to homes and church-like places. If you interfere with public movement, then it is an obstruction. This should be the same for Christians and their celebrations, too.

  • 3

    Foxie

    I wonder what will happen to Lourdes then, the famous pilgrimage site. They can close down since nobody will be allowed to pray in front of the grotta which happens to be outside.

  • 6

    It"S ME

    Foxie.

    I don't think that will be a problem as the shrine is a privately owner entity, where as french streets are public property.

  • 1

    The Munya Times

    Great move it was high time, but it won't solve anything I am afraid.

    The biggest point is that unfortunately we Europeans are tired of our own culture and for more than two decades we hardly do anything to maintain our very own cultural inheritance. We just hate to speak about it.

  • -13

    pawatan

    People should be allowed to practice their religion openly. France should be ashamed.

  • -8

    Azida Primus

    I don't know if any of you have a faith to any religion or practice in your daily life. In context of Muslim life have you been friend to any Muslim man so far until you can comment what they do in France (or anywhere in this world)? It looks like people (goverment) who make religion look bad and doesn't make their people to be interested in religion anymore. They just believed that religion is an obstacle for them to gainwhat they want. I believed and agree with pawatan, peoeple should be allowed to practice their religion openly. Shame to anyone who prevent anyone to practice religion openly. Nothing to be scared.

  • 8

    It"S ME

    I didn't read anywhere that the practice of Islam is being banned, curtailed or similar.

    It mentions that the mosques are too small and thus followers pray on the sidewalks(obstructing citizens) outside the Mosque, the goverment even arranged alternate venues in conjunction with the mosques till newer and bigger mosque facilities can be build.

    Don't be fooled by the attention getting headline of the article.

  • 1

    CrazyJoe

    Imagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today

    John Lennon

  • 4

    The Munya Times

    Shame to anyone who prevent anyone to practice religion openly.

    And shame on anyone who cannot even be bothered to consider the other people around them, their culture, their feelings, their own religion and the nature of the public place whether its proper for publicly displaying a very different religion, before ostentatiously displaying their own religion causing confusion and discomfort for others.

    And shame on anyone who disregards the possible embarrassment he gives to the surroundings and imprudently practicing his own religion and culture in the home of others while expecting them to toe the line when they are in Muslim countries.

    And shame on anyone who confuses the openness of practicing religion with inconsiderate liberty and cannot or doesn't even wan to find a proper place to worship God and practice their own religion for what it is and not for what it is not for the others.

  • -3

    pawatan

    ostentatiously displaying their own religion causing confusion and discomfort for others

    Oh, we musn't have confusion and discomfort! That would be SO sad. Let's single out believers of one religion and make sure we never see them practice their religion instead.

    I am quite sure if the issue were a group of nuns wanting to pray on the street we wouldn't be reading in the international press about France banning them from doing so. You and I both know this. It's the fear of 'other', not some virtuous defense of secularism.

    practicing his own religion and culture in the home of others

    No, this is THEIR home. These are French citizens and residents. As such they are entitled to the free practice of their religion by LAW. The very first line on the topic in Wikipedia is: "Freedom of religion in France is guaranteed by the constitutional rights set forth in the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen"

    while expecting them to toe the line when they are in Muslim countries

    Why is it that those who wish to take away Muslims' right to practice their religion in the west always compare the treatment of Muslims in the west to non-Muslims in incredibly backward, theocratic dictatorships like Saudi Arabia or Iran? Isn't Western democracy supposed to be more enlightened than this?

    And on the very surface of this statement is ludicrous. Are non-Muslims treated the same in Saudi Arabia and Iran as they are in Turkey, or Indonesia, Malaysia, Morocco, Tunisia, Lebanon? Of course they aren't.

  • -5

    Aakmal999

    Finally! reveal true face of bigotry mind 'there no ultimate freedom or right people for religion'

  • 10

    Spidapig24

    pawatan

    Oh, we musn't have confusion and discomfort! That would be SO sad. Let's single out believers of one religion and make sure we never see them practice their religion instead.

    Try reading about this ban before making asinine comments it actually involves all prayer in public not just muslim prayer. I love the racism that comes out when things like this happen, oh they are picking on the poor muslims.

    I am quite sure if the issue were a group of nuns wanting to pray on the street we wouldn't be reading in the international press about France banning them from doing so. You and I both know this. It's the fear of 'other', not some virtuous defense of secularism.

    Actually l agree you wouldnt be hearing about it because unlike some muslims the nuns would abide and not shout racism. The funny thing is yes they banned worship on the streets but they also gave the muslims large building to use as mosques so that they could pray. Also its funny that the muslims are actually supporting this as they now have places to pray that are big enough to hold them rather than some being forced onto the streets for lack of room

    No, this is THEIR home. These are French citizens and residents. As such they are entitled to the free practice of their religion by LAW. The very first line on the topic in Wikipedia is: "Freedom of religion in France is guaranteed by the constitutional rights set forth in the 1789 Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen"

    And as a secular state France has banned all religions from praying on the streets. And its a good thing, as an atheist why should l be subjected to something l find abhorrent on the streets in my face. I understand people have a right to pray, do it in appropriate places not on the street.

  • 0

    zichi

    I have no problem with it, provided it's equally applied to all religions. No more Catholics marching through the streets carrying statues of the Virgin Mary.

  • 6

    Kevin Lee Brooke

    I am beginning to develop a re-affection for France.

  • -2

    banger

    France/EU can&t stop preaching equality,freedom,democracy to Arabs and other poor countries.!and yet they will PUT END TO IT if anyone prays outside of the street.hope such rules will apply to stop rape,robbery in france.ever been to france?just try metro late night in paris area! French Govt should be asamhed/

  • -1

    Madverts

    888naf,

    No herding going on I agree. "Journalism" at it's worst.

  • 9

    realmind

    @Azida Primus@@ I believed and agree with pawatan, peoeple should be allowed to practice their religion openly. Shame to anyone who prevent anyone to practice religion openly. Nothing to be scared.

    Yes my friend. You should shout it in the streets of Saudi Arabia. You and your family will be lynched in a minute. Here is the situation. In the middle east many countires they even did not allow to eat food in the day time when muslims have thier fasting prayer. I wish to see the streets of Mecca and Medeena where Hindus, Christians, Buddhist pray and do the procession every Sunday. Before you speak about the rights of being a French citizen, you were refugees and begged for aslym. After you people got citizenship you people started showing your real nature.... Until that time you people didn`t have your Allah or faith. That is the truth... Still you have freedom to return to your own country you came with your parents as refugees. Or try to go to Saudi Arabia there you can pray with all other religions exercising the freedom with out scare.......

  • -4

    Lieberman2012

    capt crunch is right as usual. brilliant and incisive commentary.like an oracle of some kind.France is gearing up for a new Holocaust.All the Muslims will be rounded up.They will be sent to concentration camps.You read it here first. crunch will be recognized for the visionary he was:

    No. No. They just had to bow to the rightists and the anti-immigration people and call it an affront to secularism. So what's next? Muslim man prays over his dying wife after a car accident and the French authorities will "put an end to it"?Its almost like they enjoy the controversy, anger, and riots.

  • -1

    sf2k

    In general religious people of all faiths are strange. On the one hand they claim high words of peace and honour and the other hand go back to their day jobs destroying the planet with trash and pollution. You'd think religious people would be not so duplicitous or delusional and be an example rather than hiding behind a veil. It literally is faceless. In the case of Muslim, it happens to be obvious rather than hidden. Maybe that's what isn't liked here, the reflection of purpose manifest? Maybe if people had a purpose they then wouldn't fear others. This appears to be a symptom of a greater malady then, and not the one reported here. If society has no more purpose, how can another society be a threat?

  • 0

    CptCrunch

    France is gearing up for a new Holocaust.All the Muslims will be rounded up.

    I neither said nor hinted at anything remotely like that. Nor do I predict it or agree with it now.

    I could just as easily say that Lieberman has the right of it, and soon the Muslims will rise and take over Europe, instill Shariah law and burn every church to the ground in retaliation, as is clearly written in the Koran. And if we don't slaughter every Muslim man woman and baby, it will surely happen. But what's the point? Just being an annoyance of course. Too bad you can't just discuss or you might learn something.

  • -4

    CptCrunch

    Muslims quietly went to where they were asked to go.

    So why are Muslims getting hell?

    Oh, right. Bigotry.

  • 0

    Madverts

    "So why are Muslims getting hell?"

    Who's giving them "hell" exactly?

  • 1

    Nessie

    Jforce, CapnCrunch and Pawatan have it right. You should have the liberty to practice your religion insofar as it doesn't interfere with the liberty of others. If the religious celebrations are obstructing traffic, that should be the basis for regulations or other remedies. This holds for any religious activity, or non-religious activity for that matter.

    Spidapig wrote: And as a secular state France has banned all religions from praying on the streets. And its a good thing, as an atheist why should l be subjected to something l find abhorrent on the streets in my face. I understand people have a right to pray, do it in appropriate places not on the street.

    People in Muslim nations find dogs and pigs abhorrent. Do you agree with the ban on keeping dogs as pets in Muslim countries?

    In a secular society with free speech and the rule of law, there's no inalienable right to demand that people not offend your religious (or atheistic) sensibilities. Rather than follow Muslim society down the rabbit hole toward 632AD, we should uphold the rationalist, secularist values that characterize post-Renaissance Europe. And I say this as one of your fellow atheists.

  • 0

    Nessie

    (cont.)

    ...and those rationalist, secularist values include tolerance for dissenting opionions and no favoritism for or bias against any specific religion.

  • 0

    Spidapig24

    Nessie

    Jforce, CapnCrunch and Pawatan have it right. You should have the liberty to practice your religion insofar as it doesn't interfere with the liberty of others. If the religious celebrations are obstructing traffic, that should be the basis for regulations or other remedies. This holds for any religious activity, or non-religious activity for that matter.

    I agree that you should have the liberty to practice religion. No one is taking that away from anyone in this case, they are merely saying you may not do it on the street. Your comment " insofar as it doesn't interfere with the liberty of others." This is exactly what the French are doing, they are a secular state and therefore worshiping on the streets is infringing on others liberties whether they be non religious or of a different religion.

    People in Muslim nations find dogs and pigs abhorrent. Do you agree with the ban on keeping dogs as pets in Muslim countries?

    It is their country so l am in no position to say l disagree, if that is their religion or their beliefs so be it. The same as here, here is France a non muslim state, a secular state saying if you are of any religion and want to pray do so but dont do it on the streets. And that is fair and common sense.

    In a secular society with free speech and the rule of law, there's no inalienable right to demand that people not offend your religious (or atheistic) sensibilities. Rather than follow Muslim society down the rabbit hole toward 632AD, we should uphold the rationalist, secularist values that characterize post-Renaissance Europe. And I say this as one of your fellow atheists.

    You are viewing this as purely attacking muslims yet it isnt, and as l said earlier there are reports that the muslims themselves are on the whole happy with this as they where given places to worship that would fit all worshippers in. So l dont know why you and others keep saying they are attacking Muslims because frankly that is cr**

  • -2

    It"S ME

    Starting to wonder if some posters here actually read the article or simple reply to some posters.

  • 2

    Madverts

    Nessie,

    I gotta differ with you on this one. Religion is a private matter and should be practised in the privacy of one's home, or in designated areas of the sect.

  • -4

    pawatan

    And as a secular state France has banned all religions from praying on the streets. And its a good thing, as an atheist why should l be subjected to something l find abhorrent on the streets in my face. I understand people have a right to pray, do it in appropriate places not on the street.

    Who are you or I to tell people where they can and can't exercise their constitutionally protected rights? I am not even slightly religious myself but I realize in a pluralistic society there are people who have beliefs and practices I do not like. I don't have to like them, they aren't mine. I don't get upset about prayers in front of sporting events like happens in much of the western world either.

    What do you find so "abhorrent" about someone's religious beliefs? Are people trying to force convert you? Make you follow their rituals? If no, what do you care about their religious practices?

  • -3

    Azida Primus

    dear realmind, i believed you don't look at me properly. And I also don't know how faith work on you. As a muslim they know their mosque is anywhere where they stand no need for a proper building. Maybe muslim are too many until they need bigger place. I believed not so many people in "other prayer" building there. Did u agree?

  • 1

    Spidapig24

    pawatan

    Who are you or I to tell people where they can and can't exercise their constitutionally protected rights? I am not even slightly religious myself but I realize in a pluralistic society there are people who have beliefs and practices I do not like. I don't have to like them, they aren't mine. I don't get upset about prayers in front of sporting events like happens in much of the western world either.

    Why should l in a non religious country be forced to be exposed to something that l do not like. If l lived in a muslim or christian country then that would be a separate issue. The fact is in order to cater to everybody then people are being asked to practice their beliefs on private property not in public. What is wrong with that, they are not banning people from worship they are merely asking them to be considerate of others and do so in private.

    But to answer your question, you or l cant tell people where they can or cannot practice their beliefs however what gives them more rights than me. As a non religious person who are they (any religious person) to force me to witness their rituals. Public places are for the public all of us not just some to use as their prayer hall

    What do you find so "abhorrent" about someone's religious beliefs? Are people trying to force convert you? Make you follow their rituals?

    Thats non of your business

    If no, what do you care about their religious practices?

    I dont care about their religious practices as long as lm not confronted with them in a public place.

  • 5

    Cos

    "they just could not call them an obstruction and quietly move them"

    If they move them without a paper from a judge, the cops will be called dictators.

    "France/EU can&t stop preaching equality,"

    They are applying it. When I was a teen, we'd gather 70 of us with skate-boards in a street, the cops would move us away too. Same for everybody.

    For those that misunderstood : The prayers are allowed, they can do them in any location like their mosquees and if there are not enough, they can rent for free or very cheap a hall, a gym, a stadium... 98% of French Muslims and 100% of other religions find places for regular gatherings that are not the streets, When anyone, Catholics, Jewish, etc, held occasional street events and they always ask local authorities approvals months(and even years) in advance, and whenever it is refused, they change their plans. It is the choice of some religious extremists to do it in streets.

  • 4

    Madverts

    "Who are you or I to tell people where they can and can't exercise their constitutionally protected rights?"

    It isn't a right protected by the French consitution as far as I'm aware.

  • 1

    mousetime

    Yippee! Someone finally has the guts to stand up and say, "Keep your religious fanaticism" inside. I am very loyal Christian but I don't believe in forcing others to witness me praying. It is a private matter. Europe should not be changed by the influx of Islam. It should for the most part remain secular as much as possible. Other countries need to wake up and do the same thing.

  • 1

    Madverts

    I'm still wondering as to the title of the article and why the writer had such poor taste.

    Is it the writer that considers muslims as cattle?

    Or does the writer wish to insinuate the French think muslims are cattle?

    I know this is one of the actual accusations one fanatical muslim imam has been making here in France.

    Strange to say the least.

  • -1

    Himajin

    People should be allowed to practice their religion openly. France should be ashamed.

    No one's curious as to why this happened?

    http://www.breitbart.tv/paris-authorities-look-other-way-as-muslims-block-streets-for-weekly-prayers/

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SpidaPig: "Try reading about this ban before making asinine comments it actually involves all prayer in public not just muslim prayer."

    You're absolutely right, and it's good that they have included ALL religions in their banning, but are there others who pray on the streets besides Muslims? It's pretty clear that it's targeting Muslims in particular, under the guess of being universal. I akin it to someone making a law that bans the practice of douching (or some strictly female or strictly male thing) for BOTH men and women!

  • -2

    pawatan

    Why should l in a non religious country be forced to be exposed to something that l do not like.

    We are all exposed to things we don't like - this is life. Maybe I don't like people drinking, should it be banned? People on headphones on the train? Short skirts? Why limit to religion?

    But to answer your question, you or l cant tell people where they can or cannot practice their beliefs however what gives them more rights than me.

    How do they have MORE rights than you? They have the exact same rights as you. You can practice or not practice your religious beliefs just the same as they can.

    As a non religious person who are they (any religious person) to force me to witness their rituals.

    You aren't forced, you can go down a different street. Not go at that time. If I don't like festivals in Japan I don't attend them, I don't ask that they be cancelled or held indoors.

    I dont care about their religious practices as long as lm not confronted with them in a public place.

    Uh huh. I am surprised you survive in society if you are so sensitive to religious displays. They are everywhere in Japan, everywhere. I suggest you not visit the US, India, or South America or you might be truly offended.

  • -1

    Spidapig24

    pawatan

    You aren't forced, you can go down a different street. Not go at that time. If I don't like festivals in Japan I don't attend them, I don't ask that they be cancelled or held indoors.

    A festival is a bit different to prayers in a mosque, a festival is a once a year thing. Muslims praying is several times a day 365 day a year. Big difference there!

  • 0

    The Munya Times

    @Azida Primus@pawatan

    Nice arguments on your side.

    Hear what I say: worked and lived in Islamic countries, in fact in many countries in the Middle east, I lived among Muslims, they taught me their culture, their religion, they showed me how to pray etc. I know about it.

    Just one thing I noticed; everything went on fine and safe there only until I lived and thought the way they do and the way the wanted me to do. Now, I don't want live and think the way they do and the way they want me to do in France or anywhere else in my Europe.

    Oh, and one more thing, take it for sure, we will not !

  • 0

    pawatan

    A festival is a bit different to prayers in a mosque, a festival is a once a year thing. Muslims praying is several times a day 365 day a year. Big difference there!

    So your only objection is the frequency? Not the content? You don't mind if there are eid-al-fitr celebrations?

  • -3

    Jeffrey Duelley

    Liberals wonder why Japan doesn't adopt mass immigration. Just look at the United States of Mexico and Eurabia. Why should Japan destroy its own culture?

  • 0

    WilliB

    The article paints quite a biased picture, suggesting that the French authorities are doing something discriminatory here. Fact is, the muslim organizations have been blocking off public streets for their prayer events without authorization, acting as local police. That is patently illegal, and meant to be so. It is about demonstrating islamic superiority over local laws. Similar things are happening in other European towns with large muslim populations.

    Just to put things in perspective, imagine Christians, not mention Jews or Hindus, blocking off public streets in a muslim country for their prayer events. What would their half-life be? Before even getting police involved.

  • -3

    pawatan

    Just one thing I noticed; everything went on fine and safe there only until I lived and thought the way they do and the way the wanted me to do. Now, I don't want live and think the way they do and the way they want me to do in France or anywhere else in my Europe.

    And you don't have to.

    But it's their Europe too now. If you don't want influences from other cultures, don't allow people from those cultures in your country. But don't allow them in, let them live there for decades and make it their home and then tell them to keep their culture away.

    Oh, and one more thing, take it for sure, we will not !

    What does that mean? Muslims in France have rights and votes as well. Who is this "we"? The French Muslims are a part of "we"!

  • 2

    swezzy

    Good thing, wish they will do the same in Italy but probably the politic class is too hipocrit to do that.

  • 1

    Konsta

    pawatan, Azida Primus et al., you misunderstand one thing about Europe. All this, "face-covering burqa", street praying, etc, is NOT a question of your personal freedom over everything. It, actually, only relates to Muslims partially. It may be so reflected in mass media, but it is not. Don't believe newspapers and don't be mistaken.

    It is a question of European values and not total personal freedom. European values were built not only during last 50 years of so called "Democracy" and personal freedom. European values were built during hundreds of years of European civilization and are based on good and bad things, such as society, philosophy, freedom, Christianity, inquisition, world discovery and conquest, industrialization, democracy and so on. When Europe fights abroad, when Europe accepts war and economical refugees, Europe shows its values, Europe follows its values. Europe does not fight to incorporate Muslim values and change our own. Thus, when the Muslim community, using tools of citizenship and given freedom starts pushing Europe to change its values, Europe takes measures. You will be free and safe in Europe, but Europe will not incorporate non-European values as its own.

  • 0

    Nessie

    Why should l in a non religious country be forced to be exposed to something that l do not like.

    First, odds are you do something you think is innocuous but that offends someone else. You do not have the right not to be exposed to someone else's offensive action. I do not have the right not to be exposed to what I think is your offensive action. If you think you should be spared from seeing people pray, you cannot blame Muslims who declare that they should be spared from seeing depictions of the prophet Mohammed in newspapers, for example.

    Second, the danger of tyranny of the majority. Constitutional democracies recnogize rights that can't be overridden even democratically. A majority race cannot vote to impose different conditions on a minority race. The veil ban in France is only legal because the policy applies to all religous dress and paraphenalia. It would be unconstitutional to ban veils in schools while not banning crosses. In fact, both are banned.

    Finally, a secular country is not the same thing as a non-religious country. There is no country that is non-religious.

  • 4

    ExportExpert

    All and Every Religion should be practised in private by those who need religion, why should everyone else be subjected to this display of narrow mindednes.

  • 0

    Nessie

    A final quote for Spidapig:

    Bear in mind ladies and gentlemen, every time you violate, or propose to violate the free speech of someone else, you, in pretensia, you’re making a rod for your own back, because the other question raised by Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes is simply this. Who’s going to decide? To whom do you award the right to decide which speech is harmful, or who is the harmful speaker? Or to determine in advance what are the harmful consequences going to be, that we know enough about in advance to prevent? To whom would you give this job? To whom are you going to award the task of being the censor? (Christopher Hitchens)

  • 6

    Shefts

    Religion and faith are fine. Problem starts when religious people start saying to people from other religions (or even other sects(!) not to mention non-religious) how they should behave. Worse they start forcing their views on the state laws. And yes Muslims are the worst in that respect. Just look at the Muslim countries and how "free" and "tolerant" they are. Just look at what happen because of one cartoon...

  • 0

    clive1

    France can not have it both ways. If they want to stop Muslims praying openly then more Muslim mosques need to be built and until this happens, then Muslims have little option but to pray outside.

    France needs to adopt a model based on fairness and not discrimination.

    Until France allows more mosques to be built then I support Muslims praying outside.

    However, I don't need Islamic kitman!

  • 0

    Spidapig24

    pawatan

    A festival is a bit different to prayers in a mosque, a festival is a once a year thing. Muslims praying is several times a day 365 day a year. Big difference there! "So your only objection is the frequency? Not the content? You don't mind if there are eid-al-fitr celebrations?"

    Did l say that? I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your comparison was. You compare a once a year event to a daily (and multiple times at that) event. At no point did l object on the grounds of frequency.

    The point of this whole argument is, its not just muslims that are banned (l know this disappoints you as you cant rightfully then claim racism) but all religions so whats the issue.

  • 1

    Nessie

    they are a secular state and therefore worshiping on the streets is infringing on others liberties whether they be non religious or of a different religion.

    How is it infriging? If you mean it's causing traffic obstructions, then ban that. It's not the street worship itself that's infringing on liberties, it's the fact that large groups are gathering in public areas without permits, which I believe is already illegal in most countries. The law already allows for the dispersal of such groups, whether they are demonstators or people in prayer.

  • -4

    pawatan

    Spidapig24

    The point of this whole argument is, its not just muslims that are banned (l know this disappoints you as you cant rightfully then claim racism) but all religions so whats the issue.

    You find the point where I claimed 'racism' and get back to me. ....waiting.... Yep, that's right, I didn't. Last I checked 'Muslim' wasn't a race.

    It's the other defenders of France in the comments who keep talking about "European values".

  • 0

    pawatan

    Nessie

    How is it infriging? If you mean it's causing traffic obstructions, then ban that. It's not the street worship itself that's infringing on liberties, it's the fact that large groups are gathering in public areas without permits, which I believe is already illegal in most countries. The law already allows for the dispersal of such groups, whether they are demonstators or people in prayer.

    I'd give it more than one thumb up if I could.

  • 7

    Madverts

    Hey muslims have freedom and democracy in France.

    And they're also free to vote with their feet should the secular ways of the host country offend them so.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Typical biased reporting. Herds? Right wing President?

    What garbage. This is nothing more than allowing the public to go about it's daily business without having to make any special accommodations as to what time they can drive their car in the streets to avoid conflict with outside prayers.

  • 0

    Jean Marc Desamoré

    There is one thing in France that is still allowed, it is religious parade in the Streets, for religious event for exemple. Like any other parade, religious or ont you must ask authorisation so that the police will check you your parade might endeager general order

  • 1

    Jean Marc Desamoré

    France can not have it both ways. If they want to stop Muslims praying openly then more Muslim mosques need to be built and until this happens, then Muslims have little option but to pray outside.

    The thing is under the non religious law, France and its legal representative isn't allowed to build any religious building, it most come from private initiative.

  • 2

    Nessie

    If they want to stop Muslims praying openly then more Muslim mosques need to be built and until this happens, then Muslims have little option but to pray outside.

    The state should not be in the business of building Mosques. If the Mosques are overcrowded then Muslims should worship in their homes, rent event spaces or finance more Mosques. Or use that awesome European transit we're always hearing about and travel to a less crowded mosque.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    We are all exposed to things we don't like - this is life. Maybe I don't like people drinking, should it be banned? People on headphones on the train? Short skirts? Why limit to religion?

    I wish these people would heed your words, because they're trying to impose a ban on smoking, music, alcohol, regardless of the law of the land:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html

  • 0

    The Munya Times

    pawatanSep. 17, 2011 - 07:44PM JST

    If you don't want influences from other cultures, don't allow people from those cultures in your country

    Right, problem has been solved, question has been answered, point taken. Thank you for the instruction. Now we know what to do in the future as guidance came straight from the horse's mouth. Sorry for letting you in.

    But don't allow them in, let them live there for decades and make it their home and then tell them to keep their culture away.

    Why on earth not? I have many friends in Muslim countries, they have been living there for decades it became their home and yet they don't even dare dreaming about freely keeping their European culture, not even their most natural human necessities and habits like eating or drinking alcohol, kissing their European girlfriend in public places even a light kiss and not even to eat food during your fasting days and so many others.

    Well, I see we really need to learn a lot from you, thanks for the teaching. I don't know to how many thousand of readers you gave precious guidance today.

  • 0

    lucabrasi

    It's not like they're ever really French

    Why not? They were born in France to French parents.

  • -1

    lucabrasi

    @Madverts

    The Arab French have consistently been regarded with suspicion and contempt by the European French. Their opportunities for social advancement are notoriously limited. When people are treated in such a manner, then social upheaval or political or religious extremism is the inevitable outcome.

    It's like gangs in the USA. People feel society offers them nothing, so they find a new society where they feel at home. Muslim extremists know this and are good at expoiting it.

  • 1

    oberst

    Ask yourself this question...................... would you complain if a person wearing burqa gets a free pass at the security checkin claiming religeous freedom and the TSA actually agrees?

  • 1

    Madverts

    Lucabrasi,

    Thanks for your comments. I've lived in France for many years and must admit to having heard that argument.

    In some cases I'll concur that there is certain discrmination towards those of North African origin, the CV of Farida slipped under that of Francoise etc...

    But more often than not it's the old victim card, played with ease by the third generation of people without the slightest inclination of abandoning the over generous social tit they're sucking and going out to find work. You'll find this is the major gripe here, and more and more it isn't just the muslims being singled-out. It's every cas soc.

    At the end of the day if French muslims where seriously bothered about integration or their place in French society, they wouldn't be making issues like this. Especially in a country that rightly said bollocks to religion, albiet a different one, centuries ago...

  • 0

    Madverts

    Oh and society has offered them a free education. Free healthcare. More often than not free housing.

    I disown this line of thinking as simply dangerous. I was always told to get off my arse, go to work and better myself. Not expect to have it given.

    Heh, and I came here as an immigrant with nothing but a few banknotes!

  • -2

    Spidapig24

    pawatan

    You find the point where I claimed 'racism' and get back to me. ....waiting.... Yep, that's right, I didn't. Last I checked 'Muslim' wasn't a race. It's the other defenders of France in the comments who keep talking about "European values".

    You obviously forgot this little comment you made,

    Let's single out believers of one religion and make sure we never see them practice their religion instead. I am quite sure if the issue were a group of nuns wanting to pray on the street we wouldn't be reading in the international press about France banning them from doing so.

    So despite the fact that this ban applies to ALL religions you say that it is singling out one religion, you then compare it to a western religion and ask if there would be the same reporting. So as you can see its you that played the race / religion card in comparing the muslims to western religion and asking if there would be the same reaction. Oh and as you didnt seem to get it the first few times this ban applies to ALL (not just muslim) religions.

  • 1

    pawatan

    So despite the fact that this ban applies to ALL religions you say that it is singling out one religion, you then compare it to a western religion and ask if there would be the same reporting. So as you can see its you that played the race / religion card

    Whoa there buddy! Muslim is not a race. You said "(l know this disappoints you as you cant rightfully then claim racism)". I didn't claim racism.

  • -2

    pawatan

    The Munya Times

    Right, problem has been solved, question has been answered, point taken. Thank you for the instruction. Now we know what to do in the future as guidance came straight from the horse's mouth. Sorry for letting you in.

    Are you gunning for a sarcasm record?

    I have many friends in Muslim countries, they have been living there for decades it became their home and yet they don't even dare dreaming about freely keeping their European culture, not even their most natural human necessities and habits like eating or drinking alcohol, kissing their European girlfriend in public places even a light kiss and not even to eat food during your fasting days and so many others.

    As I said much earlier, there are just a few Muslim countries where these activities are banned. Iran, Saudi Arabia, maybe Yemen? Libya under Gaddafi? But you can drink alcohol in pretty much any Muslim country - Egypt, Morocco, Turkey, Malaysia, Indonesia, Lebanon. You see couples kissing in public all the time unless you are in one of the gulf states. And you as a non-Muslim can certainly eat during the fasting months in most countries. So what countries other than the very few I mentioned are so oppressive to westerners? Seems to me they bend over backwards to allow foreigners to act like foreigners.

    Well, I see we really need to learn a lot from you, thanks for the teaching. I don't know to how many thousand of readers you gave precious guidance today.

    ????? Apparently you ARE going for the sarcasm record. Lovely!

  • -1

    The Munya Times

    @pawatanSep. 17, 2011 - 12:27PM JST No, this is THEIR home. These are French citizens and residents. @ucabrasi Why not? They were born in France to French parents.

    Then why are wee discussing it as a cultural problem, European culture vs. Islam and such as a Muslim society in France? They are all native French living in France and Sarkozy and the French have the basic right to handle their domestic social issues as a domestic matter. Doesn't it matter to us what French do with their own Frenchmen. It has nothing to do with cultural and religious differences after all. They didn't ban them from praying, just not in the street. They don't allow Christians praying in the middle of the street either. All french must be equal. Why some French request special rights in their own society? Moreover, there are other different societies in France and Europe and they create no problems at all.

    pawatanSep. 18, 2011 - 08:21AM JST Are you gunning for a sarcasm record?

    Not at all, this is more serious, you spoke the very truth when you printed out your stand and said.

    "If you don't want influences from other cultures, don't allow people from those cultures in your country. "

    It's not a joke at all.

  • -2

    Lieberman2012

    it is a very European spectacle.Muslims pretend their faith is solely a religion and not a political movement. France pretends it is fair and equitable in treatment of non french people.

  • -3

    pawatan

    Not at all, this is more serious, you spoke the very truth when you printed out your stand and said. "If you don't want influences from other cultures, don't allow people from those cultures in your country. " It's not a joke at all.

    You certainly treat it as one.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    WilliB: "Fact is, the muslim organizations have been blocking off public streets for their prayer events without authorization, acting as local police. That is patently illegal, and meant to be so. It is about demonstrating islamic superiority over local laws."

    If they are literally blocking traffic in the streets then it should not be allowed in the streets (though perhaps on the sidewalk would be okay). I think you're reaching with the 'Islamic superiority' thing, though. As for comparing this with Christians blocking the streets in an Islamic nation, isn't it true you look down upon Islam in general, and (as is the case here) consider Islamic nations to be, to put it euphemistically, 'backwards'? If so, why would you compare what France is doing to intolerance of other religions in Islamic nations?

  • -3

    Elbuda Mexicano

    I do not want to point out the pink elephant standing in the middle of the room, but if France did not want so many Muslims in France, it should have thought about that when they went to INVADE Northern Africa, Algeria etc..hence many Arabs speak French really good and since France has a better economy than most poor Northern African countries, geez, a no brainer, just hop on a boat and try to make it up to France right? The French wanted the cheap Arab and African labor, they got it and now their country is full of...yes! Arabs and Africans, who is to blame?? The rich, stingy elite of Paris, who never had to live near the poor Arabs and Africans, and now they do not know what to do with so many Arabs and Africans all over France?? Cest la vie!!

  • -1

    Elbuda Mexicano

    Just read the link, http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html put up here by HATSOFF, thanks! Incredible that in a country, known for its good beer, whiskey etc...these Muslims are playing cops and putting up stickers to scare people into following SHARIA law on the streets of England?? Everyone here should read this article, JT should look into it more and put it under WORLD??

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html

    So kanpai! Enjoy a few drinks, wear your mini skirts and love life to the fullest! Listen to music and dance! dance! dance! So back to France, they should have really thought about invading those Muslim countries over in Africa because now the tables are getting turned on the French right? May the rest of the EU learn from France and not go invading other countries to then turn around and complain, oh, now we have too many Arabs, too many Africans, just study your history of who invaded who first.

  • 0

    Kevin Lee Brooke

    Ahhh Crunchie. You are choosing the wrong battles. Out-numbered again. Out-numbered and out of touch.

  • -2

    Kevin Lee Brooke

    I hope the French continue to crack down. Maybe set a precedent for the U.S. to follow. I just hope it doesn't spread to Japan too. :-( I might have to find ANOTHER place to live...and I like it here.

  • 0

    HumanTarget

    Remember when everybody and their dog was afraid of communism and how bogus all that turned out to be? Americans were convinced the Red Army was going to march on Washington any day now!

    Now replace "McCarthy" with "Limbaugh" and "Communism" with "Sharia Law"

    In 5 or 10 years, we will look back on this new scare and laugh because something even MORE scary like Socialism, cultists, or Teen Pregnancy(!) or Science(!!) will come around and take our minds off of Islam and we will realize leaving people alone is - wait for it - the best way to avoid conflict.

  • 3

    Fatima Emiko Shah McCairn

    I was brought up in Pakistan in the biggest city of Karachi. And every Friday the people would spread mats on main roads during the afternoon prayer which meant those routes were blocked for atleast a couple of hours. I found it a nuisance, very selfish and obscenely ostentatious of those who thought "As a muslim they know their mosque is anywhere where they stand no need for a proper building" Azida, I am sorry and i am not against you per se, but i believe your idea of Muslims' rights to pray in any public in large numbers because anywhere is a mosque disregards other people's right to use that space at that time too. In any case, France has arranged alternative spaces for mass prayers which is more than what a lot of Muslim countries will even ever imagine doing. That is a fact and a sad one.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    As Human Target suggests, I do hope we look back one day and laugh, and if it all stopped now then that would be the case. However, the excessive paranoia of McCarthyism aside, a robust stance against of communism was made, and it could be suggested that THAT is the reason we can look back today, and that without such a robust defence things would be vastly different. Leaving people alone may avoid conflict, but it doesn't necessarily protect rights, cultures or ways of life. Muslims praying in the street may be one thing, but it's part of a larger issue. At the risk of repetition, this link shows exactly why the response should be robust:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html

  • 0

    darkbob

    Sure enough, the muslims try once again to impose their medieval ways and superstitions on a rational society and before the 'racist' 'bigot' labels are handed out, let me say this is fact and a calling a spade a spade. The religion is primitive, intolerant and illogical. Time to move forward, not back to the 12th century. Well done France, enough is enough.

  • 0

    HumanTarget

    Hatsoff,

    Exactly what "robust stance against" communism was made? Other than McCarthy and his cronies inciting general fear in the populace. You really believe the US would have turned Communist if not for vapid and useless fear mongering and a negative attitude about Russia? There was never any threat, whatsoever, that Communism was going to somehow take over the western world.

    And please, please, for the love of God, please stop using the Daily Mail to support your points. It's a tabloid.

  • 0

    hatsoff

    HumanTarget - The robust stance against communism can be seen in the very fabric of society, including consumerism, marketing and advertising, the values of the people, reinforced with politics (the most obvious and vocal opposition). Ideology was and is promulgated through all these channels. I wasn't around for McCarthyism and I'm not American, so I can't speak for those times, but ideology runs deep - you don't find it only at the political level or shouted from soapboxes.

    Communism took over eastern Europe clearly enough. As for the USA, communist ideology wouldn't have needed to take over the country completely. The ideology would just have needed to take a strong enough hold to destabilize society. It is naive to think that if no steps were taken to rebuff communism then it would have stopped where it did.

    To bring this back on topic, it is also naive to think that if no steps are taken to rebuff the fundamentalist aspects of Islam - what is commonly called Islamism - then nothing will happen. If left unchecked, it will significantly change the nature of European countries.

    You may not like what you read in that Daily Mail article, but to counter the threat of what those fundamentalists are trying to do to British cities with "it's a tabloid" doesn't deal with the issue - no disrespect intended. The fact is it's happening and it does need to be dealt with, whether it's reported in the Daily Mail, The Guardian or The Independent.

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