France moving toward partial ban on full Islamic veils in some public locations
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0
Beelzebub
People who think they they must make a public demonstration of their religious devotion by antiquated hair styles, funny hats or goofy costumes are essentially cultists.
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HonestDictator
No, its not that Beelzebub. It focuses only on one particular type of clothing that masks the face which is pretty much like concealing your identity all the time. I'm sorry but if someone walked into a bank, government office, or any place that has security cameras or anything of value its not wise to keep ones face covered.
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OssanAmerica
If that's enough to drive them to "extremism" then hate to say it, but I'm glad they live in France and not where I live.
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WilliB
A "partial" ban on the extreme islamist garb in "some locations".... that puts France about on par with Afghanistan in dealing with radical islam.
Waive the white flag, Paris!
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goddog
170-page report...why so long? Are there a lot of photographs, or is it just one word per page?
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dontknockit
Are we gonna ban trench coats too? Someone could be hiding the identity of their sawed off shotgun under there!
So much for the surgical masks passed around by WHO volunteers. In fact, that is probably what these women will wear if this crap passes. It won't really change anything at all.
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TheQuestion
Not as of yet but I have been asked to step aside for a search from time to time while wearing mine.
Valid point, but the fact that the headscarfs can be thought of as a security concern will undoubtably make its way into the minds of French officials.
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dontknockit
And that is a proper response. Banning trenchcoats isn't and neither is banning head/face scarves but only the ones in the Muslim fashion. Security checks are A-OK so long as they also check the people wearing surgical masks, etc.
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SuperLib
Good luck with this, France. I'm not sure if you can pull it off or not but I'm curious as to how the new laws are going to play out over the next decade or so...
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ShonanMaruNo2
“It is perhaps a marginal problem, but it is the visible part of the iceberg,” lawmaker Andre Gerin, president of the parliamentary panel, said in an interview. “Behind the iceberg is a black tide of ... fundamentalism.”
Fundies see fundies everywhere.
0
dammit
If this was really about concealing identities they'd have no chance.
If a Muslim woman went out wearing fairly ordinary men's clothes, say a calf-length coat and fuddy-duddy boots that went up to her knees, wearing a wig complete with attached beard and mustache, she wouldn't even need the optional surgical mask to make her indistinguishable and totally unrecognisable. It would be extremely easy for them to do that, and to take the p they could do it in womens' clothes instead of mens' and there'd surely be nothing the authorities could do about it. Short of banning Muslims, which is probably what they're hoping to eventually achieve anyway.
Still, as they claim it's because of keeping religion out of public spaces, the women can still disguise themselves with beards and wigs and hopefully give those bureaucrats the finger in the process. Nothing religious about wearing a false wig, is there.
This is what happens when discrimination is so absolute, demeaning, degrading, and insulting. If Japan banned non-black hair you'd soon have people on here whining and moaning. In the case of these women, their religion and their cultural identity is intertwined. You insult and decry their religion, and you insult and decry them, their culture, their parents, their ancestors, you name it. It's outright discrimination, not simply against one religion, but also against one gender. Whichever way you look at it, and whatever side of the fence you sit, it's blatantly obvious that it doesn't sit comfortably with all those guarantees of human rights and equality that come with the European bits 'n' bobs.
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Madverts
It seems pretty obvious to me that these garments should be banned if not only for security's sake.
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Madverts
Remain loyal
Sheesh my typing deficiancy continues...
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grafton
There was a time, a long time ago, when I really did care about things like tolerance and understanding. Another person’s religion, political ideology or even simply their nationality or colour was something that needed to be defended. I have grown old and tired since then, and I have become sick of seeing good people taken for a ride by shallow, nasty, dishonest people who believe they have some special right to force others to accept their twisted thinking. The west has given and given (and given in to) to the Muslims while getting not the least trace of reciprocation. This is a religion that has no flexibility with in itself and demands rather than asks that it be accepted in none Islamic countries. Its practitioners see no contradiction in demanding that it be given rights in the west while dogmatically blocking any similar rights for none Muslims in Islamic countries. When you fight for the freedoms of others you should not also be fighting for the loss of your own freedoms in the process, but with Islam that is what the west is doing. Some European countries, France in this case, seem to be trying to make a stand against the undermining influence of Islam in western culture. It is a small and almost meaningless step in itself, though it does highlight the hypocrisy of the political left which while defending female equality sees nothing contradictory in also defending the Muslim subjugacation of women. Nonsensical arguments about wearing wigs and surgical masks and defending a Muslim woman’s “right” to be hidden do little to bring the world into the 21st century. When Muslims give as much as they ask for (not demand) then and only then can we be expected to meet them half way. Until then they should expect no special rights in the west. When you live in my house you live by my rules, or are we to have so little self respect that we are to give up being who we are solely to accommodate others who will never offer a similar accommodation?
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dontknockit
grafton, your post is not very much related to this issue. This is not about Muslims forcing anything on the rest of France. This is about Muslims doing what Muslims do, and I will bet most Muslim women in France are not wearing veils and don't care to. Nor is this a special right they are asking for. As it stands, it is their right because there is no rule against it. The problem is that there is talk of taking the right away, despite a lack of any significant problem caused by veils. This is a pre-emptive strike of the highly paranoid at best, a xenophobic swipe at worse.
Anyway, I would not be surprised if there is a culture where the women don't wear bras, now having a discussion about how western women are forced to wear those restrictive things and how they have no freedom and are downtrodden.
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WilliB
dammit:
It is mainly about the position of women (inferior, and under the tent), and if this was a purely personal isse, then islamist wouldn´t crow about it.
Also note that that scarf/niquab/burqua is a huge issue in muslim countries. Muslim reformers do not wear the thing. The issue does not go away by pretending it does not exist.
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grafton
dontknockit You seem to wish to miss the point, the burqua or face covering is the issue here, but is in fact a token, a beginning. Little steps being taken to retain European culture while blocking what most find repugnant. Most countries in Europe have developed a fear of going against anything Islamic, the religion has somehow become precious and protected at the detriment of the indigenous population, taking even a small stand is to be welcomed. Or did you really believe that this is an isolated issue?
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Nessie
By this logic, he should not be against rules allowing for public nudity. Works for me.
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usaexpat
Good for France, if imigrants do not assimilate into their adopted societies, well we all know the problems Europe is facing these days.
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mikemcfly87
TOUCHE
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Madverts
If they're not happy, send 'em back.
That's the feeling here in France, so let's see the fundies get in a tiz about it. That means at least 3 million less spongers that breed like mice.
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ca1ic0cat
I have to agree with the French on this one. It's a derogatory comment on women's equality to force them to wear certain garments because they are considered subservient. In many respects this is similar to forcing Jews to wear the Star of David to identify themselves; only this is being done by the Muslim men to the women of their families. Violence against women, honor killings, lack of education: all these things are considered acceptable by the same men who enforce this dress code. A civilized society can not accept such behaviour. This partial ban is a good starting place.
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LIBERTAS
Superficial at best, farcical at worst. Better to simply say that as a secular state, religion has no place in public life or government.
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Icewind007
I don't see a big problem with clothing choice. Rather, they should simply go after the real extremism and not choice of clothing... In a sense, this would be like banning dresses and skirts for women in a professional environment because it portrays them as more fragile and delicate, as well as something to be looked at.
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