Gaza truce recedes as rockets hit Israel

Sunday 21st December, 04:18 PM JST

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WilliB at 12:01 PM JST - 22nd December

Adaydream:

" Why...why...why you dumbasses. You could have peace, but hell no. "

Read the Hamas charter. There ain´t no peace as long as the Jewish state exists. Shariah must rule the whole area, and eventually the whole world. Until then, the jihad goes on.
SezWho2 at 02:10 PM JST - 22nd December

SuperLib,

I didn't know you had it in you to do all those things. Continuing in your same vein, my guess is that franz75 would make peace by appeasing Israels' land grabs in 1948 and 1967, forgiving the ethnic cleansing, forgetting the use of disproportionate force and swallowing down the rising bile of injustice. But somehow I don't think sarcasm is going to solve the problem.

The Palestinian militants' actions certainly can appear foolish. However, simply acquiescing to Israel's seizure of territory and meekly accepting what Israel is willing to give them is not likely to work. (Did Israel achieve statehood peacefully?) I'll grant you that Palestinian attacks on Israel get Israel's blood up, but forswearing violence is unlikely to get Israel out of occupied territories. What would be the incentive?

The UN made a colossal mistake when it created a state next to a non-state where many had a righteous grievance against the state. Israel made a mistake in settling the occupied territories after 1967. The US has made a mistake in condoning Israeli nuclear weapons and consistently supporting it.

I have no idea what the solution is. But blaming the militants is far too easy.
skipthesong at 03:00 PM JST - 22nd December

Read the Hamas charter. There ain´t no peace as long as the Jewish state exists. Shariah must rule the whole area, and eventually the whole world. Until then, the jihad goes on."

I wonder about that. Let's say for argument sake, the Jews move from Israel, which of course is impossible unless you simply wipe them off the planet. Would that be it? Of would the charter then read: "no peace as long as the Jews exists."

No, not trying to start anything, just wondering.

BTW, 1967 was not a land grab. Israel was attacked on all three land fronts but every Arab country in the region.

If we are going to start pointing fingers that Jews have zero right to be there, which I am taught they do, then everyone on this board who is of European/Anglo extraction must remove themselves from the western hemisphere.
SuperLib at 03:22 PM JST - 22nd December

Sez, do you think the Palestinians are going to get what they want by using an armed struggle?
SezWho2 at 04:37 PM JST - 22nd December

SuperLib,

Not as long as Israel has such staunch support. How do you think they're going to get what they want?
SezWho2 at 04:39 PM JST - 22nd December

skipthesong,

The land grab came after the attack. The land was not Israel's. Israel intentionally settled it. It has no real intention of giving it up. I'd call it a land grab. What would you call it?
stener at 05:34 PM JST - 22nd December

Hamas agrees to this?

Yes.

Hamas has said. we now say that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders there could be peace and security in the region and agreements between the sides until the international community finds a way to solve everybody's problems and to find a way to give back the rights to the people, to end the oppression of those who used to live on their land and were forced out of it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4693382.stm
skipthesong at 05:48 PM JST - 22nd December

It has no real intention of giving it up. I'd call it a land grab. What would you call it?" Sez, I'd call it very European like.

and you point out that Israel has "staunch support" from who? Even America didn't support them when they first started flowing into Israel. If anyone has support, its Hamas. Hamas has the support of every Muslim, from the Atlantic to the Pacific.. For such a small amount a land, they really have the numbers over them wouldn't you think?

Stener, the key word in your argument is "could". So, as much as you may distrust Israel, why should Israel trust Hamas? As for those living in those lands, there is a cycle as many Jews have the same claim pre-Ottoman.. as well as much of that land was baring. Least not forget the amount of so called Palestinians who flooded into the area with its peak after the 67 Arab led invasion.

There really is one solution to this mess, and a mess that includes all hands, unlike several posters trying to point 100% blame. Israel has held back a lot, if what posters here claim they can do and are capable of doing. they could play the same game as Hamas
SezWho2 at 06:18 PM JST - 22nd December

skipthesong,

I'm sorry. You're going to have to elaborate on what "very European like" means.

Again, I say that Israel has staunch support, meaning now. You say that America didn't support them when they first started flowing into Israel, meaning at some time presumably at least 60 years ago. I'd be willing to go back and have a do-over, but I don't think any of the principals except Israel's neighbors would, so we're kind of stuck in the now of it. I think the US is now a staunch supporter of Israel and even if that were the only staunch support Israel had it would be all it would need.

Also, I think it's not true that Hamas has the support of every Muslim from the Atlantic to the Pacific. In particular Abbas does not support Hamas. In fact a large number seem to prefer Fatah at the moment and there have been protests against Hamas even in Gaza.

I don't know many people who think this situation is 100% Israel's fault. I think, however, that there are many who think that Israel is quite far from blameless. You know, when you have aspirations to take over a land in which you are not the majority, when you secure the support of an imperial power eager to solve its own problems and with a historical bone to pick with the religion of the majority in the land, when you set up a religious state while neither having majority ownership of the land nor having majority membership in the land and when the locals are ethnically cleansed, when your own leader at the time states that it is unrealistic to expect that you will ever be forgiven, when you go on to seize more territory from the people you have driven from their land and from their descendants, and when in defense of your land you kill them and raze their houses, you have to accept that you will come in for some degree of criticism.

Yes, why can't the Palestinians just accept all that? It would be so much more convenient.
stener at 06:19 PM JST - 22nd December

Stener, the key word in your argument is "could". So, as much as you may distrust Israel, why should Israel trust Hamas?

Israel does not have to trust Hamas. And Hamas does ot have to trust Israel. All Israel needs to do is to retreat back to the 1967 borders. The UN security counsil unanomusly adopted this resolution. USA too voted in favour of an Israeli retreat to 1967 borders therefore when US supports Israel they are actually going against their own agreement which they voted in the UN.
skipthesong at 08:19 PM JST - 22nd December

Ok, stener, we are on two different pages. I'm talking about Jews and for Jews to have a homeland. now, if we are going to differentiate Israel and Jews
stener at 08:49 PM JST - 22nd December

Ok, stener, we are on two different pages. I'm talking about Jews and for Jews to have a homeland. now, if we are going to differentiate Israel and Jews

I do not understand what you are trying to say as you are jumping from one topic to an another.You will need to elaborate. I have proved you wrong in every post that you have written and instead of acknowledging that you have been wrong, you change topics.

Israel was created by terrorising the vast bulk of the indegenous people of Palestine and Israel attacked it's Arab neighbours and occupied the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza in 1967.

Every nation in the UN has voted and agreed that israel retreats back to 1967 borders and any land which was taken in the 67 war which was started by Israel to be returned back to the Palestinians. But Israel does not want to give back what the entire world including US is demanding. So what was it that you say about Jews needing a home land? Why is it that US demands on paper that Israel retreat to 67 borders yet support Israeli apartheid? Is it the nature of American to be lying hypocrites Skipthesong?

Jews can have their home land in Israel according to 1967 borders. As long as Israel does not retreat to 1967 borders and keep Gaza, West Bank under occupation. Israel is ignoring international law and Israel becomes a racist apartheid state. Israel can have their state without being a racist apartheid state.
skipthesong at 09:09 AM JST - 23rd December

Jews can have their home land in Israel according to 1967 borders." Ok, now I understand you and I am with you for the most part. I had assumed you were with the crew who feels Israel has no right to exist. I am sorry I got you wrong. Where I do part ways with you is Israel was attacked and after losing that area, the Attacking Arabs demand it back after it was captured. During that time, as I understand as I wasn't born yet and neither were you, Israel asked for guaranteed peace in return for that land and that wasn't granted.

You say apartheid conditions yet understand it is a quasi state self governed by itself, Israel has no obligation to the people of that area until they make a decision is they are going to be with the state of Israel or be its enemy. I have been to Israel many times and have met Arabs. I am involved in that tyupe of business that lets me buy from there. Anyone who wants to become Israeli regardless of religion or language or culture can do so.
SuperLib at 11:12 AM JST - 23rd December

Hamas has said. we now say that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders there could be peace and security in the region and agreements between the sides until the international community finds a way to solve everybody's problems and to find a way to give back the rights to the people, to end the oppression of those who used to live on their land and were forced out of it.

Any reason why the Palestinians didn't agree to the 1967 borders in 1967? Seems like we could have avoided the last 40+ years of conflict.
airrunwesker at 08:01 AM JST - 4th January

The camera idea would have to be in real time... they could be monitored by Isreal, Hamas, and the international community...

install them everywhere in Gaza...

I don't suppose both sides could simply wait a few more days for Obama to take office?