Gaza truce recedes as rockets hit Israel
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29 Comments
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0
adaydream
Why...why...why you dumbasses.
You could have peace, but hell no.
I don't know why I even pray for your peace sometimes.
Pray for peace. < :-)
0
likeitis
Its too bad the British could not set the Jews up on some damned island somewhere that they could call New Israel. Oh, no, they just had to be center west of their most bitter enemies. And the Muslims just can't quit picking at it.
When is this crap gonna end?
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SuperLib
You know I asked myself the same question, daydream. But after thinking about it for a while I realized that the rocket attacks are really a win-win for the militants. Before I was approaching the problem from the point of view that Hamas and the militants have the goal of helping their people. But if you look at it from the standpoint that they believe their people are irrelevant then things change a bit.
If they fire rockets they have the chance to hurt Israel. That's obviously a positive for them. But we also know Israel will continue the blockade which will hurt the Palestinian people, which is a negative. But....what if that's not really a negative? What if the militants view their own people as expendable? If you don't care that your people may or may not receive medicine then you could actually take action that guarantees they don't receive medicine, then turn it into a public relations victory against Israel.
So in that sense the militants gain two positives....rockets hitting Israel and a public relations boost. Surely the militants aren't using rockets to end the blockade. You and I know that's not the way to do it. It's actually one of the few ways they can guarantee that the blockade is never lifted. But if you think about it from the point of view that ending the blockade is irrelevant to the militants then it starts to make more sense.
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smithinjapan
Idiots.
0
NuckinFutz
Cowards launch rockets at civilians because they are to inept and stupid to accomplish anything productive towards peace.
0
proxy
It will never end, there are too many nutters on both sides.
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elbudamexicano
Those who use violence in the name of "GOD" or anyother religion are very, very dangerous! No matter which "GOD" or religion they support. So the entire Middle East is still living like cavemen.
0
franz75
Sarge: someone take your land and give it to someone else that claimed they were living there before and owned the land with the sole proof of a chapter written in the Bible. What will you do? Destroy the hate vehicle but their will something else instead.
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SuperLib
I'd wage a hopeless war against them for decades even though I'd know that's the one and only way I could never possibly win. I'd take what land I do have and turn it into a sewer for my children to grow up in, I mean the ones I haven't told to strap bombs onto their body to blow up a restaurant. I'd vote in a corrupt government whose sole purpose it to kill the other side even if it makes the chances of any peace less likely. I'd advocate a position that my religion tells me killing innocents is good and I'd become a terrorist, and I'd teach children in my society that it's their duty to kill themselves and that 72 virgins are awaiting them if they blow themselves up. If the other side offered me any kind of peace deal I'd reject it, and if they offered me any kind of humanitarian assistance like supplies or free medical care I'd blow up the supply lines and try to kill the doctors caring for me. In short, I'd sabotage my education, prosperity, and any chances for peaceful coexistence.
Why, what would you do?
0
stener
Give freedom to the Palestinians and let go of the criminal siege of Gaza and stop ethnic cleansing more Palestinian land in West Bank and East Jerusalem. Create a viable Palestinain state side by side with Israel with East Jerusalem as capital. Every country in the world agrees to this so I don't understand why it should be so difficult to solve this conflict.
Palestinians are shooting rockets because they want freedom. Israel does not want to give Palestinians freedom but would rather keep discriminating them.
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stener
I think Nelson Mandeal had a good quote on this conflict which the most ignorant people should also be able to grasp.
*The Palestinian-Israeli conflict is not just an issue of military occupation and Israel is not a country that was established "normally" and happened to occupy another country in 1967. Palestinians are not struggling for a "state" but for freedom, liberation and equality, just like we were struggling for freedom in South Africa.
As to the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, there is an additional factor. The so-called "Palestinian autonomous areas" are bantustans. These are restricted entities within the power structure of the Israeli apartheid system.
Apartheid is a crime against humanity. Israel has deprived millions of Palestinians of their liberty and property. It has perpetuated a system of gross racial discrimination and inequality. It has systematically incarcerated and tortured thousands of Palestinians, contrary to the rules of international law. It has, in particular, waged a war against a civilian population, in particular children.*
My conclusion is the same as Nelson Mandela and not the same as the apartheid apoligists like many posters here seem to be. People who see this as a cycle of violence is missing out on the bigger picture. This is about a people who have been systematically dispossed from their lands and who are denied the right for self determination and freedom. USA is the biggest supporter of Israeli apartheid. This is not suprising knowing that US was one of the latest countries in the world to condemn apartheid in South Africa.
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SuperLib
Hamas agrees to this?
0
WilliB
Adaydream:
Read the Hamas charter. There ain´t no peace as long as the Jewish state exists. Shariah must rule the whole area, and eventually the whole world. Until then, the jihad goes on.
0
SezWho2
SuperLib,
I didn't know you had it in you to do all those things. Continuing in your same vein, my guess is that franz75 would make peace by appeasing Israels' land grabs in 1948 and 1967, forgiving the ethnic cleansing, forgetting the use of disproportionate force and swallowing down the rising bile of injustice. But somehow I don't think sarcasm is going to solve the problem.
The Palestinian militants' actions certainly can appear foolish. However, simply acquiescing to Israel's seizure of territory and meekly accepting what Israel is willing to give them is not likely to work. (Did Israel achieve statehood peacefully?) I'll grant you that Palestinian attacks on Israel get Israel's blood up, but forswearing violence is unlikely to get Israel out of occupied territories. What would be the incentive?
The UN made a colossal mistake when it created a state next to a non-state where many had a righteous grievance against the state. Israel made a mistake in settling the occupied territories after 1967. The US has made a mistake in condoning Israeli nuclear weapons and consistently supporting it.
I have no idea what the solution is. But blaming the militants is far too easy.
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skipthesong
Read the Hamas charter. There ain´t no peace as long as the Jewish state exists. Shariah must rule the whole area, and eventually the whole world. Until then, the jihad goes on."
I wonder about that. Let's say for argument sake, the Jews move from Israel, which of course is impossible unless you simply wipe them off the planet. Would that be it? Of would the charter then read: "no peace as long as the Jews exists."
No, not trying to start anything, just wondering.
BTW, 1967 was not a land grab. Israel was attacked on all three land fronts but every Arab country in the region.
If we are going to start pointing fingers that Jews have zero right to be there, which I am taught they do, then everyone on this board who is of European/Anglo extraction must remove themselves from the western hemisphere.
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SuperLib
Sez, do you think the Palestinians are going to get what they want by using an armed struggle?
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SezWho2
SuperLib,
Not as long as Israel has such staunch support. How do you think they're going to get what they want?
0
SezWho2
skipthesong,
The land grab came after the attack. The land was not Israel's. Israel intentionally settled it. It has no real intention of giving it up. I'd call it a land grab. What would you call it?
0
stener
Hamas agrees to this?
Yes.
Hamas has said. we now say that if Israel withdraws to the 1967 borders there could be peace and security in the region and agreements between the sides until the international community finds a way to solve everybody's problems and to find a way to give back the rights to the people, to end the oppression of those who used to live on their land and were forced out of it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4693382.stm
0
skipthesong
It has no real intention of giving it up. I'd call it a land grab. What would you call it?" Sez, I'd call it very European like.
and you point out that Israel has "staunch support" from who? Even America didn't support them when they first started flowing into Israel. If anyone has support, its Hamas. Hamas has the support of every Muslim, from the Atlantic to the Pacific.. For such a small amount a land, they really have the numbers over them wouldn't you think?
Stener, the key word in your argument is "could". So, as much as you may distrust Israel, why should Israel trust Hamas? As for those living in those lands, there is a cycle as many Jews have the same claim pre-Ottoman.. as well as much of that land was baring. Least not forget the amount of so called Palestinians who flooded into the area with its peak after the 67 Arab led invasion.
There really is one solution to this mess, and a mess that includes all hands, unlike several posters trying to point 100% blame. Israel has held back a lot, if what posters here claim they can do and are capable of doing. they could play the same game as Hamas
0
SezWho2
skipthesong,
I'm sorry. You're going to have to elaborate on what "very European like" means.
Again, I say that Israel has staunch support, meaning now. You say that America didn't support them when they first started flowing into Israel, meaning at some time presumably at least 60 years ago. I'd be willing to go back and have a do-over, but I don't think any of the principals except Israel's neighbors would, so we're kind of stuck in the now of it. I think the US is now a staunch supporter of Israel and even if that were the only staunch support Israel had it would be all it would need.
Also, I think it's not true that Hamas has the support of every Muslim from the Atlantic to the Pacific. In particular Abbas does not support Hamas. In fact a large number seem to prefer Fatah at the moment and there have been protests against Hamas even in Gaza.
I don't know many people who think this situation is 100% Israel's fault. I think, however, that there are many who think that Israel is quite far from blameless. You know, when you have aspirations to take over a land in which you are not the majority, when you secure the support of an imperial power eager to solve its own problems and with a historical bone to pick with the religion of the majority in the land, when you set up a religious state while neither having majority ownership of the land nor having majority membership in the land and when the locals are ethnically cleansed, when your own leader at the time states that it is unrealistic to expect that you will ever be forgiven, when you go on to seize more territory from the people you have driven from their land and from their descendants, and when in defense of your land you kill them and raze their houses, you have to accept that you will come in for some degree of criticism.
Yes, why can't the Palestinians just accept all that? It would be so much more convenient.
0
stener
Stener, the key word in your argument is "could". So, as much as you may distrust Israel, why should Israel trust Hamas?
Israel does not have to trust Hamas. And Hamas does ot have to trust Israel. All Israel needs to do is to retreat back to the 1967 borders. The UN security counsil unanomusly adopted this resolution. USA too voted in favour of an Israeli retreat to 1967 borders therefore when US supports Israel they are actually going against their own agreement which they voted in the UN.
0
skipthesong
Ok, stener, we are on two different pages. I'm talking about Jews and for Jews to have a homeland. now, if we are going to differentiate Israel and Jews
0
stener
Ok, stener, we are on two different pages. I'm talking about Jews and for Jews to have a homeland. now, if we are going to differentiate Israel and Jews
I do not understand what you are trying to say as you are jumping from one topic to an another.You will need to elaborate. I have proved you wrong in every post that you have written and instead of acknowledging that you have been wrong, you change topics.
Israel was created by terrorising the vast bulk of the indegenous people of Palestine and Israel attacked it's Arab neighbours and occupied the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza in 1967.
Every nation in the UN has voted and agreed that israel retreats back to 1967 borders and any land which was taken in the 67 war which was started by Israel to be returned back to the Palestinians. But Israel does not want to give back what the entire world including US is demanding. So what was it that you say about Jews needing a home land? Why is it that US demands on paper that Israel retreat to 67 borders yet support Israeli apartheid? Is it the nature of American to be lying hypocrites Skipthesong?
Jews can have their home land in Israel according to 1967 borders. As long as Israel does not retreat to 1967 borders and keep Gaza, West Bank under occupation. Israel is ignoring international law and Israel becomes a racist apartheid state. Israel can have their state without being a racist apartheid state.
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skipthesong
Jews can have their home land in Israel according to 1967 borders." Ok, now I understand you and I am with you for the most part. I had assumed you were with the crew who feels Israel has no right to exist. I am sorry I got you wrong. Where I do part ways with you is Israel was attacked and after losing that area, the Attacking Arabs demand it back after it was captured. During that time, as I understand as I wasn't born yet and neither were you, Israel asked for guaranteed peace in return for that land and that wasn't granted.
You say apartheid conditions yet understand it is a quasi state self governed by itself, Israel has no obligation to the people of that area until they make a decision is they are going to be with the state of Israel or be its enemy. I have been to Israel many times and have met Arabs. I am involved in that tyupe of business that lets me buy from there. Anyone who wants to become Israeli regardless of religion or language or culture can do so.
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SuperLib
Any reason why the Palestinians didn't agree to the 1967 borders in 1967? Seems like we could have avoided the last 40+ years of conflict.
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airrunwesker
The camera idea would have to be in real time... they could be monitored by Isreal, Hamas, and the international community...
install them everywhere in Gaza...
I don't suppose both sides could simply wait a few more days for Obama to take office?
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