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Germany, France, Russia, Ukraine to discuss peace talks

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By FRANK JORDANS and MATTHEW LEE

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From what can be read in the world press, this might actually do some good as France and Germany refuse to deliver more weapons to both sides... Merkel even admitted that this is a war, that cannot be won. It was probably an intelligent decision to leave the americans out, when it comes to peace. They should try that more often.

But of course the forgot that not selling them weapons is bad for business, would not have happened with the americans at the table.

-1 ( +6 / -7 )

Weapons should be on the table if this isn't resolved soon. Only the cowards in Europe are willing to surrender without even firing a shot in the face of Russian aggression. The US can proceed without them as always.

-6 ( +3 / -9 )

"Russian-backed separatists" - article

Putin orders an invasion, his puppets claim love for Russia and then Putin gets his Christ on. Predictable. Putin is a loser and the Russian people pay for his failures. Bring back Gorbachev.

-7 ( +3 / -11 )

As long as Putin wants to stir the pot there will be no peace and no ceasefire.

-3 ( +5 / -9 )

Europeans don't have the stomach for an all out military (or economic) confrontation with Russia, so Putin will ultimately get his way and eastern Ukraine will either be annexed or under permanent control of pro-Russian forces. Unfortunately, Putin will then plot his next land grab.

-2 ( +5 / -7 )

gelendestrasse As long as Putin wants to stir the pot there will be no peace and no ceasefire. This pot has been steered by the US and its underlings since first day that Ukraine became a country. All four Largest Soviet republics didn't want the Yeltsin and the USA imposed separation and right after this nondemocratic enforced event took a place western colonialist movement became active. When Yeltsin came to power I said that he was anti Russian traitor and now 20 years later every one finally agrees. Than I said that NATO with USA on the helm had plans to take over control of all Slavic peoples and to partition Russia and now everyone agrees. Ukraine was poisoned with USA and NATO usurpers since the firs elections there and they never stopped installing their puppets and than scrapping them and replacing with new ones. Only government that was supported by enough Ukrainians not to require bazaar style coalition was that of Yanukowich TWICE and both times it was prevented to do its job by the evil empires from out side. Why did he prefer the Russians? Obviously for they are more honest, they do not want to control but rather cooperate and they are the only ones that were helping with no interest and financial shackles that western loan sharks are putting on every country they 'help'. Like it or not fact is that dealing with the USA EU and IMF is bad and dealing with Russians is while not perfect, much better.

1 ( +4 / -3 )

Putin has been pushing peace in Ukraine for months

Lol, pull the other one. Maybe pushing peace at the same time as pushing tanks.

@Zvonko I don't know how I could disagree more. Why would the US want trouble in Ukraine when it has ISIS to deal with?

-2 ( +3 / -5 )

The West should stop meddling in Russian/Ukrainian affairs. Do Obama, Hollande, et rally want to dabble with WW2? Ukraine is essentially tied to Russia in a way these fools don´t understand. Ukraine would not even be an independent country if Stalin had not artificially granted it nation status in the USSR. The grand deal between Gorbachev and Reagan involved a firm promise that the West would NOT meddle in Russias near East, why is that promise being broken now? The reason for NATOs existance was to counter Warsaw Pact. The Warsaw Pact has been dismantled, but NATO still exists and its leaders want to expand it right to the doors of Moscow, breaking every promise that was made previously?

Are our leaders all insane? How about if Putin started to support and arm an independence movement in, say, Quebec or Texas? This is not much different.

2 ( +6 / -4 )

How did the American dream start and persist since the Washington (than terrorist by the Brithish standards) started it. They started in the east and kept expanding to the west. Every couple of decades they would get stuck with few more rich and few more thousands of hungry. Then they would conquer more territory and have a free run for another decade or so. So it went on for two hundred years, one new frontier after another one piece of Mexico or Russia but in all that time there was only about twelve years that 'country of the free' was not in the war against some land that didn't deserve the freedom. Now that USA has no more near lands to conquer and that its few rich have everything and free people have nothing they are in bad need of new frontier, place to go and plunder so all will be happy for a while again. And that brings us to Russia, largest country in the world, more natural resources than all rest of the world combined. I do not have to say no more, it is all clear.

-1 ( +4 / -5 )

Why would the US want trouble in Ukraine when it has ISIS to deal with?

Well that sums it up. You really don't have a clue to what's going on and are just a US mouthpiece. Do you mind if I call you Brian, Mr. Williams?

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

UK, Australia, Canada and USA form an axes of former parts of British empire, they share common language and at least in part common history and culture. No one in the world stands in the way of their closeness and cooperation. with couple of western European powers they jointly control rest of the world. It is just as logical for the Slavic peoples to wish to see their countries cooperating and working together for the common good. They share similar cultures their history is tied together and their languages are similar. But when they try to cooperate and work as a group the western English speaking alliance steps in with all its might and forces on them divisions and even war such as the cause of Ukraine today. Why can't we just have them leave us alone.

-2 ( +4 / -6 )

@FizzBit @Zvonko

You guys crack me up. Yeah, it is all an attempt to colonize the Donetsk Basin with Americans. Only Putin-controlled media could come up with such hilarity.

But when they try to cooperate and work as a group the western English speaking alliance steps in with all its might and forces on them divisions and even war such as the cause of Ukraine today. Why can't we just have them leave us alone.

Because you never realized that that would entail letting the Czechs, Poles, Bulgarians, Croatians, etc. etc. have some independence and freedom? I have no sympathy for a police state and that is what Russia has always been.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

scripantheist:

" I have no sympathy for a police state and that is what Russia has always been. "

So you are not happy until Russia itself is destroyed, is that it? Alas, many of our politicians seem to think the same way.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The ruthless cynical brutality to the war waged by President Putin, Russian special forces, advisers, those 'little green men' are only matched by the cold war Soviet styled propaganda machine that demands that a independent sovereign country be returned to the despot thief that's been plundering Ukraine resources, and humiliating its people.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and French President Francois Hollande have descended to nothing more than shameless appeasement, reminiscent of British Prime Minister, Neville Chamberlain appeasement policy that made war inevitable because Hitler charm uncannily present in the character of President Putin, was a mask that hid a lying, bullying narcissistic sociopath.

Diplomacy has provided President Putin the means to rob a country of its dignity, its future. German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier toe curling naivety is as misguided as profoundly wrong. President Putin dictatorship has to come to an end, for the coming generations of Russians who value peace, steering and developing a Russian culture to join a global community that will build a last relationship of mutual trust and friendship.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

Russia will continue to be a problem. The level of paranoia is hard to wrap your head around:

"This is not even an army, it's a foreign legion. In this case it's a foreign NATO legion,” Putin said, speaking before university students in the city of St. Petersburg. [They are there] with the aim of geopolitically containing Russia"

Straight out of The Dictator's Handbook.

You have older generations who are pissed off at the collapse of the Soviet Union. They went through a lot of hard times because of it. Younger kids grew up in it. Russians see a quick fix with Putin to get back to stability and to be feared in the world, something they really miss. So much so that they're happily give their rights to Putin if he can get the job done for them.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

I remember that the same group of politicians who now are adamant that the Ukraine must not split went to war on Serbia on behalf of a separatist terrorist group in Serbia. And before that they were adamant that Yugoslavia must be split up. With exception of Bosnia-Herzegonwina, of course, which must remain united, no matter how the three population groups want to split it. How the heck do these clowns decide these things? By throwing dice?

The Ukraine has always been intimately linked with Russian, and this time our Western chicken hawks are messing with the wrong guy.

-1 ( +3 / -4 )

"Send the war-mongering, adolescent Americans home."

You could try.

”Putin has been pushing peace in Ukraine for months”

Har!

1 ( +3 / -2 )

Kinda funny, Bush, how most every former Warsaw Pact state has outstripped Russia in terms of per capita GNP, despite their small sizes and lack of resources. Perhaps this is because they put faith in the talents of their people and associate with more reputable nations rather than institutionalize a paranoid kleptocracy. If this is Putin's idea of winning - well, it would be interesting to see what losing would be.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

a growing clamor in Washington to arm Ukraine will be on the minds of those present in Minsk.

I can't catch the idea - to send for example tanks or artillery - OK , but you need a lot of time to retrain the people

YEARS ! How does it help ?

Mortars and machine guns ? - it does not change situation...

May be it means - to send troops ?

I count five that are slightly above Russia in GDP per capita (nominal). It is because of their small size when looking at per capita. When looking at just GDP (nominal; the one where the U.S. is 1st), then Russia's (8th or 9th in the world) is four times that of the next former WP nation, Poland.

Ok my friend - do you know Russian population ?

About 144 millions

EU population - about 507 millions USA about 317 millions

But Russia capable to counterbalance EU+ USA in military sphere

Today we have conflict USA + EU vs Russia

824 millions vs 144 millions

So WHO is more effective ?

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Bush

The veto will effectively keep Ukraine out of NATO and EU forever.

This in itself is unacceptable and the US and Ukraine will not allow it. So say hello to another 40 million in NATO.

@Willis

So you are not happy until Russia itself is destroyed, is that it?

If they refuse to accept the basic principle of democracy, yes. As it is Russia infects all of its surrounding countries with Putin media and props up China and North Korea. Disgraceful.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Olegek: So WHO is more effective?

Well I think Russia will always be effective in dealing with conflicts on her border, especially those involving ethnic Russians.

In terms of economics, Putin will hurt Russia overall. When you roll back democratic practices there's always a rise in corruption and it's a problem in Russia. Financial markets want stability and transparency and little meddling by the government which Russia doesn't really offer to the same extent as the West. My guess is that their main customers will be other authoritarian governments with similarly low levels of press freedom.

Russia can make a living like this, but they'll always be playing from behind.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Scripantheist:

" If they refuse to accept the basic principle of democracy, yes. As it is Russia infects all of its surrounding countries with Putin media and props up China and North Korea. Disgracefu "

Western-style liberal democracy is for countries that are ready for it. As for our efforts to bring it to places that are not ready for it, please remind us how Carters, Clintons, Bushes and Obamas "democracy spreading" efforts have worked in Iran, Afghanistan, Kosovo, "the troops will be home by Chrismas" Bosnia, Iraq, Libya, Tunisia, Syria?

Yes, we need more of that wonderful stuff...... not.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

SuperLib Well I think Russia will always be effective in dealing with conflicts on her border, especially those involving ethnic Russians. In terms of economics, Putin will hurt Russia overall.

Russian state is VERY special

Russian state was made for ONE main goal - ensure the survival in most hard&dangerous conditions using scared

financial resourses )

Russia is totally different from England France or Italy

Mobilization state mobilization society (may be some sort of Prussia but bigger)

You can't easy break down this system by bold direct attack...

The result of western "increasing pressure " can be horrible war

Easy victory ? - it's a joke ?

Finacial markets ? - What's this - ask you most Russian

It's a different world

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@WilliB

Iran - Never tried Afghanistan - Who knows Former Yugoslavia - Almost entirely free, some problems in Kosovo and Bosnia Iraq - Who knows Lybia - Who knows Tunisia - Who knows Syria - Who knows

Sounds like a whole lotta "who knows". And way to cherry pick the Muslim countries who hate democracy. We don't have that problem in Ukraine. Eastern Orthodoxy is not inherently hostile to democracy.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Be in no doubt President Putin is attempting rewrite Europe's borders at the barrel of a heavy artillery piece. Diplomacy has run it cause, time to force President Putin back in his box and seal the lid permanently. Clearly there is a definable military mismatch between Ukraine and Russian forces occupying an independent sovereign country. it is perfectly legitimate to provide Ukraine with lethal defensive aid to counter the Russian insurgence.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

Olegek: Russian state is VERY special. Russian state was made for ONE main goal - ensure the survival in most hard&dangerous conditions using scared financial resourses )

Your government was set up for survival?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

SuperLibFeb. 10, 2015 - 01:10AM JST In terms of economics, Putin will hurt Russia overall. When you roll back democratic practices there's always a rise in corruption and it's a problem in Russia. Financial markets want stability and transparency and little meddling by the government which Russia doesn't really offer to the same extent as the West.

The EU and U.S. is now risking the same thing by trying to bring Ukraine into the West without reference to economic reality or the willingness of EU citiznes to bear the enormous costs involved, and at a time when the EU itself is in deepening crisis. Ukraine's economic situation is far worse. If this decline continues, the Ukrainian state will face collapse.

If you look at the past two decades, too many members of the EU and U.S. have ignored the Ukrainian-Russian economic relationship. The West simply does not have the means or the will to integrate Ukraine into the West while isolating it from Russia. West denounce Russia for putting pressure on Ukraine over gas supplies, and usually neglected to mention that, through cheap gas and lenient payment terms, Russia was in fact subsidising the Ukrainian economy of several billion dollars each year, many times the total of Western aid during this period. The obvious question of whether EU and U.S. would be willing to pay these billions in order to take Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence and into that of the West. Sure, Russia has supported a corrupt and semi-authoritarian system of government in Ukraine, but they too often forgot to mention that trade with Russia has also been responsible for preserving much of the Ukrainian economy. Russia remains Ukraine's largest trading partner, exceeding that with the whole of the EU. These opponents need to ask themselves just how much they are prepared to sacrifice and to risk in order to turn Ukraine into a pro-Western and anti-Russian state.

3 ( +3 / -0 )

The bully Putin uses military power to gain ground on Ukraine, and that is his diplomacy. E.U. and Merkel talk of an empty diplomacy without stick. Words without deeds are cheap and reflecting one's own weakness.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

BTW, Debaltseve has been surrounded for over a week now, by a paltry force of less than 10,000 separatists. Why doesn't the 200,000 strong Ukrainian army do anything about it?

You mean the SS Neo-nazi death mercenary killers aren't all they're cracked up to be?

By that you mean China, which is soon to be the biggest economy on earth, the same China that the US owes $3 trillion to

No, I suspect you'll get strong business connections with North Korea, Iran, Venezuela, Cuba, etc. The further you go down the transparency list is where you'll start to see more and more Russian business partners. I'm not saying I'm against it; it's only natural that you'd band together. But again it just seems more like a limitation.

As for China, they are good business partners like they are partners with the US, but that's a far cry from ally status. China really has no love for Russia's new self-determination policy because of their issues with Taiwan. And Russians sound a little too giddy about their relationship with China which leads me to believe there might be a confidence issue there. Historically speaking, Russia and China have banded together over the US but that's been out of need, and both countries have been willing to undercut the other when the chance comes with China getting the best of Russia more often than not.

What I'm trying to say is be careful pinning your future success on your relationship with a country like China.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

They'll sign anything for a ceasefire.

We shall see, my friend. We shall see. The US has yet to enter this struggle.

These opponents need to ask themselves just how much they are prepared to sacrifice and to risk in order to turn Ukraine into a pro-Western and anti-Russian state.

If it were up to me, quite a bit. Democracy is the only way to secure peace in the long term: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_peace_theory

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

scipantheist Feb. 10, 2015 - 07:23AM JST If it were up to me, quite a bit. Democracy is the only way to secure peace in the long term:

Democracy? They had chance, but Ukraine was largely invisible to the EU in over two decade of its independence. None of the fifteen EU members at the time saw Ukraine as a priority. It was too far away from the EU, too difficult to understand, and too close to Russia. Many EU policy decisions are very much driven by individual member states and their often on national interests. Theese states did not engage in much debate about Ukraine’s importance and did not see much sense in pushing the rest of the EU toward signing the agreement at any cost. Wasting political capital on Ukraine, even given the Russia factor, no longer seemed worth it for EU.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

So much said but looks like not much thinking done before talking. I guess once one is brainwashed in one direction or the other there is a total loss of will to make own conclusions. As I said when Yeltsin was still drinking himself to death out of despair for regretting his being Russia's history's biggest traitor, it will take a miracle to save Russia from being dismembered and taken over by the axes of evil, and you know what I mean by that. Putin, character I didn't know until he got on board happen to be that miracle. Yes he is authoritarian and yes he is little odd at times but I do not envy him because while saving his bellowed country from sharks he is living a tense and dangerous life with very little respite from continuous attacks and conspiracy's. It the inside dangers from some Russians that are willing to sacrifice the interest of their country for selfish individual gains that are hardest challenge since that entails fighting his own citizens, last thing that he likes to do. Recently Gorbachev is saying the same thing about Putin, wonder why it took him so long to realize that. Putin does not want to take over any country, he only wants his own country free and secure. He rightfully wants all Russians in surrounding countries to be treated as equal citizens and he even more rightfully does not want foreign armies stationed all around his borders, specially knowing that they are there waiting for right moment to get in.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Yep Zvonko, and Putin is also the world's richest man from having ripped off the Russians so much. Some hero you got there.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

sfjp330: If you look at the past two decades, too many members of the EU and U.S. have ignored the Ukrainian-Russian economic relationship. The West simply does not have the means or the will to integrate Ukraine into the West... (snip)

What's happening now is probably inevitable with a system like that. At some point there would be a look towards the West while Russia would look to keep a return on their investment.

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

I like how the demagogs work; for @schipantheist?? Putin is suddenly the worlds richest man sitting on billions of stolen Russian money, wow, and you think everyone will fall for that and believe you. Are you one that after 20 years is still going around Romania Looking for that famous half a ton solid gold toilet that Ceaușescu pooped in. Some lies take long time to go away. Obama has more cash than Putin why not ask him for the bailout.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

@Zvonko Ok, Obama's net worth is 7 million dollars. Putin's is by not even the most extreme estimates 40,000 million. Why Putin's house in Sochi alone is probably 100 million. When are you going to wake up to facts?

-1 ( +0 / -1 )

SuperLib Olegek Russian state is VERY special. Russian state was made for ONE main goal - ensure the survival in most hard&dangerous conditions using scared financial resourses ) Your government was set up for survival?

Russian state was set up to provide provide survival of population - Russia is not an island and not protected by 2 oceans or mountain chaine

In short - it was designed exactly for the situation we have NOW

itsonlyrocknroll Be in no doubt President Putin is attempting rewrite Europe's borders at the barrel of a heavy artillery piece.

So what about Kosovo ?? special case ?

Before US " helps " Ukraine was a normal state with normal government and all regions INSIDE the country

sfjp330 The obvious question of whether EU and U.S. would be willing to pay these billions in order to take Ukraine out of Russia's sphere of influence and into that of the West.

Noup - here the base for this conflict - if West was ready "to buy" Ukraine like Poland in 1991 - it was nothing that Putin can do against it.

"Marshall Plan" - what about lot of Ukrainian from West Ukraine dreaming

But - this is too expensive. So USA&EU idea was that Ukraine recieve economic bonuses from East but oriented toward West

Really intresting but not functional.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

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