Greece's Tsipras tries to rally support for austerity deal

"a quarter of the labor force out of work and a growing number living in poverty"

Whose fault is this?

It is the EU's fault of course. A pity to see Tsipras sellout to the loan sharks. The first priority is to save the Geek people. Without that nothing will work.

The Gov has sold out the Greek people again. Iceland held firm and prosecuted the bankers (many fled to the "City of London"). I would expect to see more of these "bail-ins" to the bankers in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Ireland now.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/02/12/iceland-convicts-bad-bankers-and-says-other-nations-can-act.html

So it turns out the referendum was called because Tsipras thought he would LOSE and that would get him off the hook. When he won he panicked and sold out his country. Mind-blowing. The word used for doing that in WW2 was Quisling, wonder what the word is in Greek. If they didn't have a word for it before, they do now.

Looks like the Greeks will end up with a slightly better deal than what was offered previously, although I don't think it's certain they will receive debt relief as part of the final deal. I think the EU should hold Greece accountable for their financial situation and let the country crash and burn. They should send a powerful message to the other EU members to get their finances in order. Unfortunately the socialist members like France and Italy won't do that. I guess we shouldn't be surprised. That is exactly what socialist countries do, they spend the hard earned money of others and give it to deadbeats like Greece.

That is exactly what socialist countries do, they spend the hard earned money of others and give it to deadbeats like Greece.

Simple question. If all the hard earned money has been given to the deadbeats, then why do the deadbeats have no money. Simple answer. It's the people who have the money who took the money. And they didn't "hard earn" any of it either.

In 2004, Greece spent many billions of euros hosting the Olympics. They also built a new subway line and airport. In addition to this extravagance, successive Greek governments have failed to capitalize on the Olympic legacy. Most the facilities are unused and deteriorating. Tourism is in the doldrums.

Greeks also seem unable to make the connection between an over-generous pension system and the fact that there's no money left over to invest in job-creating businesses. Do retired Greeks really believe that they've contributed enough in taxes to pay for their gold-plated pensions?

I think the former Finance Minister Janis Varoufakis said it best, "financial terrorism". Looks like the Central bankers will win. This is war without combat.

If all the hard earned money has been given to the deadbeats, then why do the deadbeats have no money. It's the people who have the money who took the money.

Perhaps the people who have the money were out earning more by making and selling things, while the deadbeats were hosting Olympics and paying generous unfunded pensions to early retirees out out of a shrinking tax base. It's not a zero sum game.

The only solution is debt forgiveness, nothing else will work in the fullness of time.

All this for $60 billion? Think about that. Greece could be bailed out by any number of international corporations who consider that amount small change.

I love Greek food. I love their culture. I had an amazing time while I was there and the service was good.

But the Greeks gladly bought the governments absurd promises of being able to retire at 35 in some cases, and to work little when they actually did work, and that the Olympics was a good idea. You elected these crooks, crook after crook, swindler after swindler. And now unless they just wipe the books clean or you make a whole new currency, you'll be in financial ruins for years to come.

All this for $60 billion?

Some people would consider that quite a bit of money. It's also money that could be spent on productive enterprises that would create jobs and value. Or you could give it to the Greek government. They'd probably host another Olympiad, rebuild the Parthenon, lower the retirement age to 10, and then come around for another hand-out next year.

Oh boy. Now Tsirpas, who was elected on a platform of ending the slavery, caves in and sings the same Troka-dictated "austerity" song as the others. What an embarassement!

And of course, "austerity" is no way to solve the mess, it just means kicking the bucket down the road.

Sad to see this.

"Perhaps the people who have the money were out earning more by making and selling things, while the deadbeats were hosting Olympics and paying generous unfunded pensions to early retirees out out of a shrinking tax base. It's not a zero sum game."

Money does not magically fall from the sky just because you are making and selling things. It is the ultimate zero sum game, and that can be proven using 2nd grade arithmetic. All the propaganda in the world about "generous" pensions, and lazy deadbeats doesn't change that reality.

Greece should be given lots of debt relief for having to accept such harsh conditions. How many times has Germany and other countries had their debt forgiven in the past? See the link below:

http://disinfo.com/2015/07/piketty-national-debt-germany-never-repaid/

Money does not magically fall from the sky just because you are making and selling things.

You got one thing right. Only in a cargo cult economy like Greece do people believe in magic solutions from the sky or across the sea. But if you create real value that other people want, money will come to you.

Nor do governments magically conjure money up out of thin air. They take it from real people doing real work creating real value, and they transfer it to those that politicians consider more "deserving." So every euro given to Greece's profligate government and entitlement-focused voters means a little more austerity for German workers, and a little more moral hazard that will make it even more difficult for Greece grow the discipline and leadership it needs to get back on its feet.

It is the ultimate zero sum game, and that can be proven using 2nd grade arithmetic.

I'd enjoy seeing that.

Money is not a zero sum game. I create a $100 value for my client. My client uses that $100 value to add $200 of value to their products. I'm $100 richer. They're $200 richer. As long as real value is exchanged, nobody loses. The world is richer by $300. Then the government takes 50% of my profit and my client's without giving the equivalent value in return and fritters that money away trying to help a basket-case economy like Greece. The money evaporates. Nobody benefits except the politicians. Now that's zero sum.

Alan:

" Nor do governments magically conjure money up out of thin air. They take it from real people doing real work creating real value, and they transfer it to those that politicians consider more "deserving." So every euro given to Greece's profligate government and entitlement-focused voters means a little more austerity for German workers, and a little more moral hazard that will make it even more difficult for Greece grow the discipline and leadership it needs to get back on its feet. "

True, but this is the inevitabloe and predicted result of Greece joining the Euro. Greece has to get out and let its politicians pay their pork in Drachma, which they can create without asking Germany for loans, and which will correspondingly drop to represent the real economy in Greece.

Joining the Euro created this mess, the only way to resolve it is to withdraw from the Euro. Why do so many people, including all Euro politicians, turn a blind eye to that?

Nor do governments magically conjure money up out of thin air. They take it from real people doing real work creating real value, and they transfer it to those that politicians consider more "deserving."

Yes, they take it from the "real people", who apparently have conjured the money up out of thin air.

Then the government takes 50% of my profit and my client's without giving the equivalent value in return and fritters that money away trying to help a basket-case economy like Greece. The money evaporates.

The government doesn't take your "value" or "profit". The government takes your money. Not the same things, that is why we have three different words for three different concepts. And money does not evaporate, its quantity goes up and down according to what numbers are punched onto a spreadsheet.

Anyways, all of this idiocy is great fun to debate about on an internet message board. Unless you happen to be Greek and have had your lives ruined by this stupidity, ignorance, and idiocy. Or live in whichever country the stupidity is coming to next. Which is every country. In fact, 5 minutes reading the news shows its already here.

Unless you happen to be Greek and have had your lives ruined by this stupidity, ignorance, and idiocy.

The Greeks have had their lives ruined by stupidity, ignorance and idiocy that they voted for over and over again. Until they learn that lesson, they will keep on doing the same thing at huge cost to themselves and others. And people talking about debt forgiveness and so on are simply aiding and abetting their tragic decline.

I never said that value, profit and money were the same thing. However, what the government takes is indeed a percentage of profit in the case of income taxes, or value added in the case of consumption taxes, etc. Money is just a symbol or tool for representing value, so I don't see what distinction you are trying to make. When I said that money "evaporates" I meant that it is squandered for no good purpose, without creating or gaining value in return.

Alan, move beyond the rant , humbly, 'ruined by stupidity'....... numbers, break it down. let hear the full monty.

Alan expand on your point beyond the political

"And of course, "austerity" is no way to solve the mess, it just means kicking the bucket down the road."

As far as the Greek economy, it's pretty much kicked the bucket. The can has already reached the dead end.

I believe we need to think beyond the political, Sunday and the full 28 will provide a clearer picture, I don't think I am breaking protocol but suggesting we are not there yet...

Hi Luca ...Will do.....Geece is a conundrum, because of past misgivings, Italy, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, France are part of the solution, but it will take the strongest of political wills to face the inevitable.

Brexit vote could trigger European free market 'chain reaction', say Swiss and Icelandic MPs

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/11731694/Brexit-vote-could-trigger-European-free-market-chain-reaction-say-Swiss-and-Icelandic-MPs.html

@WilliB

which will correspondingly drop to represent the real economy in Greece.

But how far would the drachma fall in a post-euro Greece? What would that do the prices of imported goods, especially fuel, and how would that affect the lives of ordinary Greeks? Oil is a big cost component for every manufactured item, including food, and as far as I know Greece has no home-grown fuel resources. So how would people cope when their income unit is changed from euro to drachma? The inflation would be horrendous. Many goods would become unaffordable and even unobtainable. That seems a lot more austere than what the EU, etc., is proposing.

On the positive side, their exports would be infinitely more competitive, and there may be potential to attract foreign businesses with low-cost labor (paid in drachma) and access to EU markets. A low exchange rate could also boost tourism. But all of this would take good, business-friendly leadership by a stable government elected by an economically literate constituency. So far the Greeks have come nowhere near that ideal. In fact, I heard a Greek man-in-the-street interview on the news last night, in which one person angrily asked "Why did they lend us so much money? They know what we're like."

That's why I think they should bite the austerity bullet and stay in the euro, while trying to move forward with pension and taxation reforms.