In swing states, McCain and Obama spar over taxes

Sunday 19th October, 06:00 AM JST

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Sarge at 10:59 PM JST - 20th October

Simon - Fair enough. You think Obama's the right choice. Why? I'm telling you that he is not the right choice. I'm telling you that Powell, though he is a great soldier and public servant, is wrong about this. McCain is far more trustable and able to lead the country through these tough times.
Simon_Foston at 12:24 AM JST - 21st October

I don't have a lot of time for people "telling" me who's right and who isn't. Another reason I'll take Powell's opinion over yours any day. I don't have a lot of time either for an unpredictable, bad-tempered old man who lets a dirty campaign be waged in his name by the same people who screwed him over in 2000, chooses a Christian fundamentalist demogogue as his running mate and generally doesn't strike me as having many good ideas for promoting world peace and ending the financial crisis. But that doesn't answer your question.

I think Obama is the better choice because he was right to oppose the Iraq War and his ideas about troop withdrawals are actually being taken onboard. He is right to suggest some sort of dialogue with enemies of America, because America simply could not commit itself to another military operation like the one in Iraq. After all, successive administrations maintained relations with the Soviets and Chinese during the Cold War, and President Reagan's diplomacy arguably ended it.

I also agree in principle with tax cuts for the badly off and increases for the wealthy. Small government, light regulation and letting the banks and big businesses do as they please has not worked, and the amount of cash that banking and business executives have been able to leech out of the economy is disgusting. They screwed up and they deserve to be made to pay for it. Socialist? I don't care.

As for McCain, he's done some good things. He's done his bit to clean up Washington and he's often chosen his principles over his party, but his time has been and gone. In 2000 he could have been elected as a president who would have served his country with honour and distinction. As it is, his principles haven't done anyone much good in the last eight years. McCain himself has tacitly admitted that he's running against the record of the incumbent. Notice how they don't do any campaigning together and wondered why that is? He has nevertheless been using the same campaign strategies as President Bush and seems set to follow the same policies that I think have failed catastrophically.

Now kindly don't tell me what to think again, please.
sdmsec at 07:10 AM JST - 21st October

Small government, light regulation and letting the banks and big businesses do as they please has not worked, and the amount of cash that banking and business executives have been able to leech out of the economy is disgusting. They screwed up and they deserve to be made to pay for it. Socialist? I don't care.

If you think the U.S. government is small, light on regulation, or non-interventionist in the markets you're plain crazy. The U.S. is already socialist - just not to the degree that Russia and China were before they realized the socialist conundrum - it doesn't work. Perhaps in 50 years the U.S. can have all the benefits that Cuba has enjoyed.
GJDailleult at 08:50 AM JST - 21st October

This has to be Japan Today's most ridiculous thread on this election yet. Obama says he will raise taxes on the top 5% and cut them for 95%, and half the posters here babble on about the semantics of "95%" and the evils of socialism (they don't seem to mind socialism much in Alaska by the way, with their nice fat checks courtesy of the oil companies.) Either there are some rich posters here ("sorry Sheik, I'll get back to you on the Azerbaijan pipeline deal, but I gotta send off some comments to Japan Today first"), or there some folks arguing against and planning to vote against their own personal economic self-interest. Hey I admire your willingness to take one for the team, and put the group ahead of the individual. But perhaps you have been in Japan a while - "ore ore" to you then. Anyways, arguing about taxes in a bankrupt country is just campaign nonsense, you are going to pay one way or another.
Simon_Foston at 09:05 AM JST - 21st October

If you think the U.S. government is small, light on regulation, or non- interventionist in the markets you're plain crazy.

That is basically the philosophy that Republicans, conservatives and this administration have continually advocated, right? I know perfectly well that under Bush the government has kept expanding and spending has mushroomed. I also know that American courts are a lot tougher on corporate fraud than our British ones (there's a reason so many international companies like to do business in Britain). Nevertheless people like Richard Fuld were allowed to earn something like half a billion dollars for the decade or more that they were driving the US and global economies straight into the wall. You call that regulation?
Lieutenant at 09:05 AM JST - 21st October

...there some folks arguing against and planning to vote against their own personal economic self-interest.

Insane isn't it. Not that it matters. The majority can see through the claptrap and are voting responsibly.

Kudos to Simon for his sensible posts also.
SezWho2 at 09:45 AM JST - 21st October

coulrophobic,

Obama's popularity does not rest on his tax plan. The majority of his votes did not come from his tax plan. They came from his stand on the mismanagement of our foreign policy, the mismanagement of our economy, his focus on health care and his call for change. More recently they have been coming from McCain inability to manage his temper and from his poor judgment in selecting a vice-presidential candidate who is unsuited for the job.

I can understand why you think that a plan to give money to people would be an attempt to buy votes. However, McCain is also planning to reduce taxes. Furthermore, the people who are going to benefit proportionally most from Obama's tax cuts--as you say the $0 taxpayers--are not exactly traditional Republican voters.
Sarge at 09:53 AM JST - 21st October

Sez - "Obama's popularity does not rest on his tax plan"

That's fer sure! No one wants their taxes raised. His popularity rests on his messiah-like aura.
coulrophobic at 09:55 AM JST - 21st October

"Obama's popularity does not rest on his tax plan. The majority of his votes did not come from his tax plan. They came from his stand on the mismanagement of our foreign policy..."

His own pick for Veep appears to have reservations about what his election to Commander-in-Chief will mean:

"October 20, 2008 Categories: Joe Biden Biden: Obama will be tested

"Joe Biden shifted things briefly onto what's thought to be McCain's turf at a Seattle fundraiser yesterday:

"It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy.The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Biden_Obama_will_be_tested.html
Simon_Foston at 10:16 AM JST - 21st October

To me, it sounds more like Biden was talking about the kinds of problems Obama will have to face rather than the way he will handle them. But won't McCain have to deal with the exact same problems if he gets elected?
Simon_Foston at 10:24 AM JST - 21st October

Sez - "Obama's popularity does not rest on his tax plan"

That's fer sure! No one wants their taxes raised. His popularity rests >on his messiah-like aura.

Someone just remind me again how many people are going to get their taxes raised under Obama's plan? Did someone say 5% of American income earners? I suppose it'll be whatever percentage is earning more than $250,000, but I suspect that they're in a minority that I have absolutely no sympathy with.
sdmsec at 12:16 PM JST - 21st October

Either there are some rich posters here ("sorry Sheik, I'll get back to you on the Azerbaijan pipeline deal, but I gotta send off some comments to Japan Today first"), or there some folks arguing against and planning to vote against their own personal economic self-interest.

It's much less messy to steal via the ballot box than to stick a gun in someone's back, huh?

Though I don't consider myself very rich, apparently Obama does think I'm rich. I already pay more in taxes than most Americans both as a straight dollar amount and as a percentage. How is that just? In fact, for my elevated confiscation what do I receive in return? I still get one vote and the same basic protections and infrastructure that every other citizen pays. Yet, other citizens who pay lass than me or pay nothing at all get more than these basic benefits which I am not allowed access to.

An enlightening experiment when considering government actions is to remove the goverment as the "middle man" and consider the justice of the action were it only between to equal citizens. For example, would it be just for you to take money from my family by force and give it as a scholarship to someone else? Would it be just for you to take money from my family by force in order to buy pay an artist to produce modern art?
SezWho2 at 07:00 AM JST - 22nd October

Sarge,

Obama's tax plan may not be popular with those on whom he is going to raise taxes. That would be some 2 to 3% of taxpayers. And it might not be popular with those who think that a 36% tax rate on marginal income over $250,000 is OK but that a 39% tax rate will just not stand. And it might not be popular with those who a month or two ago believed that the US economy was just fine.

But for the rest of the population, I don't think there are any serious objections to Obama's plan.
SezWho2 at 07:02 AM JST - 22nd October

coulrophobic,

What does that have to do with taxes? How does Biden's foreign policy prediction constitute a reservation?
GJDailleult at 08:31 AM JST - 22nd October

admsec,

So you have a high income (congratulations) and so have to pay a lot of tax (not good). And you have a problem with the justice of taxation. Join the club. But it's all irrelevant. The question is are you in the top tax bracket that will be hurt by Obama's plan? If not, what possible, rational reason do you have for opposing a plan that will get other people to pay more tax, and therefore reduce the share of the tax pie that gets dumped on you. Other than a possible belief in the magical powers of trickle down economics, I don't see one.