Iraqi elections avoid violence but complaints loom
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31 Comments
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0
YangYong
Ms Zakiya Tahir, let's hope your wish becomes a reality.
0
wuzzademcrat
Another defiant purple middle finger in the eye of every anti-liberation cynic and abettor.
0
smithinjapan
wuzzademcrat: Not really... I'm quite pleased that there was less violence than expected, but already all sorts of not-so-democratic incidents of side-lining and almost 'Republican-style' of keeping those you don't want from voting are surfacing, mostly amongst Sunnis. And lest we forget, there was a travel ban and all sorts of curfews and obstacles keeping MANY from getting to polling stations, and finally issues of fraud are coming up.
Hardly a political success story, my friend. In fact, if it comes even more to light that things were rigged as such to have the desired party win the election, it goes counter to everything the supposed 'democracy' stands for. I guess we'll wait and see.
Of course, I don't expect a person like you to do anything but quickly point out there was an election, say that is all the proof you needed that the war was just, and then run away. The aftermath never seems to concern your ilk. Hopefully it's not another Gaza/Lebanon/Venezuela etc., election-like result.
0
adaydream
wuzzademcrat
I'm glad you're elated at the elections.
I don't think that the money, lives and wounded Americans that were and are being forfeited to let them vote was worth it. But I'm glad you're happy? < :-)
0
Sarge
"Iraqi officials were basking in the successes"
smithinjapan: "Hardly a political success story"
Give it up, Smith.
0
sailwind
Put me down with President Obama on this one.
0
Sarge
President Obama should acknowledge that these successful elections are possible because of decisions made by President Bush, which President Obama opposed.
0
SezWho2
Sarge,
You're saying that the end justifies the means--and that has never been generally true. What is true is that some ends justify some means. It's not at all clear that this end justifies Bush's means.
0
SuperLib
I do get a kick out of seeing something successful in Iraq being wrestled with by the Left. Showing support for Iraq might be confused with showing support for Bush....and if that's the case....might as well take a pass on the support and just continue with the criticism. Politically, any other way is just too risky.
0
SezWho2
SuperLib,
Iraq will be a success when it is and not before. Elections are a good thing. Saddam had them. And now the current government of Iraq, well-shepherded by the US, is having them too.
The conditions under which they were held before and under which they were held this time were far more draconian than anything under Saddam. I'm sure they were also more free than under Saddam and will produce a government more responsive to more people. More free and more responsive is better, but the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
We've been wandering in the wilderness of Iraq for nearly 6 years and what we have to show for it is two elections, virtual martial law and a future that not even the outgoing administration could unreservedly declare successful. Passing on support would be pulling out now and leaving Iraq to fend for itself and I don't know anyone who recommends that. The criticism is not against the Iraqis. It is for those who think that sticking a feather in one's cap transforms it into macaroni.
0
sailwind
He sure did.
Iraqi officials say President Saddam Hussein has won 100% backing in a referendum on whether he should rule for another seven years. There were 11,445,638 eligible voters - and every one of them voted for the president, according to Izzat Ibrahim, Vice-Chairman of Iraq's Revolutionary Command Council.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2331951.stm
Stating the Saddam had 'elections' now THAT is really sticking a feather in one's cap and transforming into macaroni.
0
buddha4brains
Wow, 100s of thousands dead, millions in refuge in other countries, infrastructure blown to bits, economy sunk, society fractured ... basically Iraq is at or near rock bottom. This election is hardly a feather in Bush's cap, there really are not that many options left. Eventually wars end.
Also, what American leader would not want democracy in Iraq now that the country has been destroyed? Bush got away with a war based on lies. He and his supporters should be happy with that and give up on legacy talk.
0
SezWho2
sailwind,
The point was not that Saddam had elections. The point was that there are different kinds of elections and that we don't really know what kind of elections these are. Better than Saddam's? As I said, yes. Good? Who knows?
0
wuzzademcrat
"Bush got away with a war based on lies."
Specifically - what were they, and to what end? Surely people like you aren't still wearing the clever "No blood for oil!" t-shirts.
0
SuperLib
If you want to see a real sacrifice, check out the numbers killed to protect your own freedom. Suckers, weren't they? ;)
0
likeitis
No, because they were threatened. They fought their own battles, not just other people's. And they knew what they were fighting for. The story did not change on them. I cannot emphasis just how important that is as to deciding whether someone is a sucker or not.
0
wuzzademcrat
likeitis: "I cannot emphasis [emphasize?] just how important that is as to deciding whether someone is a sucker or not."
Nor can you get your point across. Do you have one? What is it about liberated Iraq that offends you so much?
0
Sarge
71 year old woman: "I just want to feel safe again"
She's old enough to remember the days before Saddam, when Iraq may in fact have been safe. Of course during the quarter century of Saddam's rule, only Sunnis were safe.
0
SuperLib
Did you feel the same way after UN forces liberated Kuwait? How about the Korean war? Shall we go down the list?
0
smithinjapan
SuperLib: "I do get a kick out of seeing something successful in Iraq being wrestled with by the Left."
What I get a kick out of is what I mentioned before, and none of you could refute (well, except a sarge, "Give it up", but we all know how witty sarge is, and how valid his statements and predictions are) or touch on, that you simply think the election itself is a sign that the end justifies the means, as SezWho mentioned. Guess what, Hamas won in a democratic election, as did Chavez, as did the Hez in Lebanon, and on, and on. Again, as SezWho stated, there are all types of elections. This one SEEMS to be heading for a win that the US and allies favour, for a change, but the fact remains that you see a few purple fingers and think that the thousands and thousands more dead were so worth it.
I do honestly hope that things improve, and once again Sez is right when he says Iraq will be a success when it is, and it's certainly not right now. If it's a success, why the bans on travel, razor wire, access denied to all sorts of people who wished to vote (mostly Sunnis, it seems, via the transportation ban or lack of access to stations nearby), possible fraud, etc.
But oh yeah, as you guys say... it's funny to watch how the victory of a few purple fingers makes people on the Left point out how many wrongs it took to get to this very very tiny success in the wake of the storm, and also showing how the storm may not quite be over yet.
wuzzademcrat: "Nor can you get your point across. Do you have one?"
Hahaha... this from a guy who turns a post about Obama into a tirade on how all of Islam is against homosexuality (even though you're wrong).
0
SuperLib
smith, I don't think you'll find anyone who says that democracy in Iraq is in it's final stage. Obviously it will take time. But at least the clock has started. Lord knows how many hundreds of thousands would have died under Saddam, then his sons, then the civil war that surely would have followed, before we got to this point.
I know that people will downplay the elections by comparing them to a perfect democracy instead of Saddam's Iraq. One can always raise the bar so high that elections in Iraq might never be called a success if that person is cynical enough. Look at how many people mock the current American or Canadian system. But I think the system now is better than it was, and that qualifies as something that can be considered a successful step. And I think in the future it will only get better.
0
Taka313
My boy is on a roll today!
And the loved ones of every killed or wounded U.S. servicemember most definitely would rather see an Iraqi with a stained finger that you may use to rub in the face of "lefties" as you sit completely void of any sacrifice, than have their loved one alive and/or whole. Bravo. You really zinged those peaceniks with that one. Their sacrifice is easily worth as much as your smug sense of satisfaction.
Then there's this:
Let's see....there was:
the yellowcake uranium lie.
the WMD lie.
the mobile biological weapons labs lie.
the cost and length of the war lie.
Is that enough because the Center for Public Integrity came up with over 900?
Taka
0
SuperLib
Wow, taka....I didn't think you were part of the "WMD lies" group....
Moderator: Readers, please don't rehash the old argument over WMDs. It is not relevant to this discussion.
0
smithinjapan
SuperLib: "I know that people will downplay the elections by comparing them to a perfect democracy instead of Saddam's Iraq. One can always raise the bar so high that elections in Iraq might never be called a success if that person is cynical enough. Look at how many people mock the current American or Canadian system. But I think the system now is better than it was, and that qualifies as something that can be considered a successful step. And I think in the future it will only get better."
A very good and down to earth post, thank you. I think you're correct in most respects, and since there is no turning back the clock I too hope things will only get better.
0
likeitis
What offends me is that my countrymen were suckered into liberating it by an easy to see through pack of lies by a lying administration with a bumbling head.
What offends me is that after fearing for their own safety so much that they bought duct tape to seal their doors, my countrymen happily agree to invade a country that was not a threat to them (but ultimately because they thought it was) and then have the audacity to claim some kind of bravery purity by later acting like it was all to spread freedom to the Iraqis.
Lies offend me. Cowardice offends me. War profiteering offends me. Whitewashing past cowardice, lies and war profiteering really offends me.
I am glad the Iraqis could have this election. But the cost was much to high. And it continues to rise. This is like, after a loved one has died, having a party when the insurance money comes in.
0
Taka313
As for the election, Likeitis, spelled it out well. I'd add this however. As much as I want Iraqis to be free, I want U.S. servicemembers to be able to live to a ripe old age a hell of a lot more.
It's amazing how an Americans patriotism can be questioned for caring more about Americans than Iraqis. But...that's what passes for logic with "the right."
Taka
0
wuzzademcrat
I hope our service members back from Iraq enter US politics. Clearly, both parties need new blood and ideas. I'm grateful we have approximately 50 thousand for each state in the Union who have seen up close what a disaster it would be for America to become as Islamicized as Europe has.
0
wuzzademcrat
Ugh, make that 5 thousand for each state.
0
Madverts
Wow, the boy realy is on a roll. Islamicized Europe?
Heh, and there were me thinking the hate blogs were getting less frenzied after the thumping at the elections.
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