Israel, Hamas near swap of prisoners for soldier
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0
WilliB
It pays to kidnap Jews! Trust Hamas to have learnt this lesson.
(Of course, if it was the other way around, if Israel started kidnapping Arabs for ransom, we´d have to brace for a sh1tstorm of press outrage.)
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sabiwabi
Seems you are missing a zero in your number, I believe the number was around 11,000 a year ago. And that number includes hundreds of children. While the entire world knows about poor little Sgt. Gilad Schalit, few know anything about these Palestinian children and other Palestinian prisoners.
0
WilliB
anthony:
Where they kidnapped in a cross-border raid like Gilat Shilat? And what does the Geneva Convention have to do with anything? The GC is about a war between organized, uniformed combattants, and not about terrorists.
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kinniku
Unsurprisingly, a look at the convention itself seems to indicate that you are incorrect.
Anyway, it is amazing to see anyone whining about this. Let them make the swap and let them all start on the road to serious talks about peace. All the other ramblings mean next to nothing. Peace between independent Israeli and Palestinian states is the only answer.
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sabiwabi
Yes, let them make the swap between Sgt. Gilad Schalit and all 11,000 Palestinian prisoners, and move back to the pre-1967 borders, and then we can start serious talks about peace. All that ignoring and excusing the countless Israeli war crimes is just mindless rambling.
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WilliB
sabiwabi:
The pre-67 borders constitute a rump state incapable of survival. (Which is, of course, why the muslim Israel-haters always parade it.)
The UN resolution 242 on purpose demands that "territories" be returned, and not "the territories". That is an important difference, because it allows for necessary territory swaps to allow a viable Jewish and Arab state. Israel has offered its muslim-Arab counterparts countless times the return of territories, in fact more than 95% of the land occupied since the 67 war.
The consistent Arab-muslim answer is "no", and more terrorism.
And I use the term "muslim Arabs" on purpose, because "Palestinian" simply means resident of Palestine... with the Jews being the original Palestinians.
Do your homework please.
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kinniku
I don't believe I am wrong. The convention you are talking about is discussing warring parties. Technically, the Palestinians and Israelis are not at war. Could you quote the specific part of the convention you think is applicable?
I do not know why you would write such a thing. Don't you think these issues are worthy of debate and discussion?
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kinniku
That is not how negotiations work. First you negotiate, then you get something in return. You don't get things before you negotiate. Both sides need to compromise.
I have never excused anyone of anything. However, writing the same anti-Israeli stuff over and over with no regard for the future of a real Palestinian state certainly does seem like mindless rambling.
I state, as I always do, that I am for an independent state of Palestine side by side in peace with an independent state of Israel. Anything other than that, including suggesting that 'moving back to 67 borders is just a "start"' does certainly sound like meaningless whinning.
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perspective
There is no "major factor" in rocket attacks on Israel - it's business as usual. If the Palestinians really wanted peace, they could have had it a very long time ago.
0
Noliving
Why all 11,000? Some of the Palestinians are guilty of crimes such as killing innocents, not that justifies anything the Israelis have done.
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sabiwabi
The 1967 UNSC resolution 242 includes the following:
1."Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war..."
3 "Affirms further the necessity for guaranteeing freedom of navigation through international waterways in the area"
!!!
So if Israel truly wants to live in peace, it would start by following international law and common decency, return to its pre-1967 border, and free all 11,000 Palestinian prisoners.
No, when a "state" illegally steals another peoples' land by military force, the international community should force it to return the land (i.e, follow the UNSC resolution). It seems only Israel can get away with this kind of thing.
When the cops catch a thief with stolen property, they don't sit down over coffee and negotiate, they return the stolen property and then figure out fair punishment and reparations.
!!!
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
You can keep repeating the same tired arguments. However, your way, which is the way the Palestinian leadership has done things, has gotten them very little. Negotiations would get them their state. This is about nations and nations negotiate with each other. Welcome again to reality.
Also, the resolution you quoted says nothing about giving back all of the territories gained in the 67 war. That was never the intention of the resolution. It is even written that way in the part you quoted.
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sabiwabi
"Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war..."
Please don't pretend to not understand the word "inadmissible".
In other words, thou shalt not take land by war.
And about the "Withdrawal of Israeli armed forces from territories occupied in the recent conflict"; I don't think the absence of the word "the" changes much, but it does allow for misinterpretation by people like you and willi.
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kinniku
This is not a matter of the word inadmissible. It is the reality that the UN resolution does NOT require Israel to give back all of the territory. This is a fact of the resolution.
This has been discussed in the UN and the meaning I have taken is the correct one and the one recognized by the UN. You know the body that made the resolution. The word 'the' has specifically been debated, in fact. Again, the meaning is as I said it was. Why not actually read the document and debate in the UN about it?
Anyway, as I said, your complaining about even positive things such as the possibility of a swap being made or of using such a story about a possibility of a swap being made shows that it is impossible for you to recognize peace between an Israeli and a Palestinian state. I want there to be peace between these two nations and I recognize the right of both to exist. This swap would be a great step in that direction. None of your negativeness can take away my hope no matter how hard you try.
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skipthesong
Is this one guy really worth it? It if were me, I'd just write the guy off and maybe then Hamas would see that he's not worth it and either kill him or just simply let him go.
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sabiwabi
I don't think they care all that much for him, really. They probably are just using him as a media tool. Look at him, he looks like a sweet little kid. The world knows his name, and they will all get to know him and their evil "kidnappers" very well with the help of the MSM.
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SuperLib
Perhaps sabi and anthony can list off the violations the Palestinians are guilty of for us. But first let me get some bottled water and a couple of days worth of food. I might be here reading for quite a while.
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skipthesong
I don't think they care all that much for him, really. They probably are just using him as a media tool." Well, that's dumb, if I'm asking this question, how many others are too?
This one got me " Look at him, he looks like a sweet little kid." What's up Sabi, you getting soft in your old age? If I didn't have to read such tiny fonts, I would have skipped and assumed you thought he looks like a devil.
The world knows his name, and they will all get to know him and their evil "kidnappers" very well with the help of the MSM." Which MSM? Surely not any from the States.
0
SuperLib
Anthony, quoting the Geneva Conventions is a complete waste of time for the region. Thinking the some kind of legal back door is going to accomplish anything, especially furthering the agenda of Palestinian militants, is foolish. In the end peace is only going to be achieved by a direct agreement between the two parties, not quoting international law.
0
LIBERTAS
Hamas, like it or not, is the rightfully elected government of Palestine. Too bad Israel and the USA don't like that choice. The Rest of The World didn't like George W. Bush, but we respected the Americans' right to their choice. It always amazes me that every little hangnail suffered by an Israeli, from shock at being within five million miles of a dud Palestinian squib to, "Eew! a non-kosher sausage!" is documented with names, addresses and dates and times. So, let's even this out a bit, shall we? Here is a list of the slaughtered by Israel, last time round: http://www.scribd.com/doc/22883962/The-Dead-in-the-course-of-the-Israeli-Military-offensive-on-the-Gaza-Strip-between-27-Dec-2008-and-18-Jan-2009 No doubt there will be many more next time. And there WILL be a next time. It's what they live for. So, everyone in The Known Universe knows the name of Gilad Shalit by heart. (Remember, he was captured as a legitimate military prisoner of a war of aggression invading a foreign country, Lebanon. Not in Israel as reported by the lying media.) Start learning JUST the names of the children on the list I posted. Shout THEM at your Zionist friends next time you hear "Gilad Shalit!" being trumpeted. Ask yourself, "What if that were my little girl or boy?" Killed in my own home by Government sponsored terrorists and murderers?
0
LIBERTAS
anthony39
Excellent point. Well said.
0
kinniku
anthony39,
Both sides need to negotiate. Both sides need to compromise. As I have explained to you many times, history repeating itself is worse for the Palestinians in this conflict. Why is it you are so against negotiations between Israel and Palestine? Why do you seem to be so against any compromise between these two nations? You continously repeat your one-sided claims of everything being Israel's fault. However, this way of doing things has not gotten the Palestinians their nation. Negotiations will, just as the have led to peace between Israel and Jordan and Egypt.
0
kinniku
LIBERTAS,
Many countries don't like that choice actually. Personally, it is up to the Palestinians if they want to elect people that will only cause them more pain and avoid getting them the nation they desire. Hamas is not for negotations leading to a peace between an independent Israel and Palestine side by side in peace. This is counterproductive to the desire of Palestinians to have their own nation. So, I think it is okay for people to suggest they don't like Hamas as a choice.
Umm...a lot of the world whined through most of the eight years the man was in office, as they had a right to do. People also have the right to whine about Hamas if they choose.
They were shooting rockets into Israel from Gaza again. So, of course with that, there will be a next time. Probably a good idea to stop the rockets and start the negotiations. As you often ignore, Israel has given back land and made peace with two nations, Egypt and Jordan and that peace has been stable and lasting. Palestinians should be negotiating for the same thing.
Baloney. Practically no one knows the guy's name or cares. Do you actually talk to real people? Do they mention his name to you? I highly doubt it.
LOL! And there we have it. You claim everyone knows this man's name by heart and yet you don't even know where the man was captured. He was captured on the border of Gaza not Lebanon. LOL! Even thinking about it for two seconds would show what you wrote does not make much sense. I mean, you are attempting to claim Gilad Shalit was captured in Lebanon and somehow magically smuggled into Gaza? Maybe you had better actually read up on the situation and maybe even look at some maps before commenting next time.
0
sabiwabi
The problem with your posts is that you do not realize how much the Palestinians have compromised and for so long. Its time for justice, not more compromise.
It is Israel's fault.
Well, I feel like Israel is on the verge of losing their "nation". Hopefully, Palestine will be restored to the great nation it once was.
0
SuperLib
Well we can see what Hamas gets through negotiation (release of prisoners) and what they get through firing rockets (a military response).
Gee, what do you think is the better option for Hamas?
0
WilliB
Sabiwabi:
Can you please explain to us infidels when "Palestine" was a "great nation"?
0
kinniku
Compromise means sitting down and negotiating and then making a true and real peace. I am not only blaming the Palestinians for the present situation. However, the fact remains that the Palestinian side, particularly Hamas but also Fatah to some extent, have not been willing to sit down with Israel and negotiate. So, you are incorrect. It is not that I don't realize that Palestinians have compromised for so long. It is that they have not been willing to compromise for so long. This was particularly true in 2000 when the two sides were the closest they have ever been so far to a peace deal and Arafat left the negotiations. Now, I know you do not want the Palestinians to compromise at all with Israel. That is why you see compromise where there is none.
No, again, you are incorrect. Both sides have been at fault. This is the reality. Your obvious and continuous bias gets in the way of your seeing this.
Meh. People like you have been saying this for decades. In fact, that helped start the 67 war and got Jordan involved. Yet, it has gotten the Palestinians absolutely nothing.
Israel is not disappearing anytime soon. This is the reality. The Palestinians will get their own nation. It will not be at the expense of the existence of Israel. Of course, it is rather hard to believe you care about the Palestinians so much when you claimed the BNP, an extremist anti-Muslim political party in Britain had logic to their argument. In fact, you really do not seem to know very much about Palestinians, Islam or the Middle East. It all seems to be a playground for you to vent your anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish bias. None of that has ever helped the Palestinians. Negotiations will. Israel has given back land and made peace with two nations, Egypt and Jordan and that peace has been stable and lasting. Palestinians should be negotiating for the same thing. I know you don't want this. However, it will happen.
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thedeath
hey kinnikuman good post.
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sabiwabi
They have several times, but both sides need to negotiate seriously. Israel has taken so much and they aren't willing to offer anything that is fair or even consider certain basic international laws.
When you catch a murdering thief, you don't sit down over coffee and negotiate, you need some justice if you want peace.
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kinniku
One, the Palestinians walked away in 2000 from the closest thing to there being peace in the region when they walked away from negotiations. This is a fact that no one can deny. Two, Hamas has expressed no interest in talks leading to a real peace between an independent Israeli and Palestinian state side by side in peace.
Yes. Both sides and both sides need to actually come to the table. This means Hamas must give up its goal of destroying Israel as must all those who support such a goal...ahem, like you seem to constantly support...
Both sides have taken and hurt each other. This the reality. Both sides must compromise.
Please, you have no idea what will be offered in negotiations and you wouldn't find it acceptable anyway. You are against the state of Israel existing. So, of course, for you, nothing short of its destruction will be enough.
Meh. People like you have been saying this for decades. Yet, it has gotten the Palestinians absolutely nothing except more misery. This is not about 'a thief'. This is about two nations that have no choice but to learn to get along. Of course, you really don't want to see that happen. You only wish for Israel to be destroyed. The only hope for the region is for the people there to ignore such attitudes and go forward with negotiations that lead to peace between an independent Israeli state and an independent Palestinian state side by side. Now, to this again, you will probably write a 'yeah but' kind of comment. However, there is no 'yeah but'. The only real option is peace between an independent Israeli state and an independent Palestinian state side by side. The shape of those two nations will be determined by the two nations themselves in negotiations and once peace is achieved, others should butt out and let them live their lives in peace.
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sabiwabi
They have several times, but both sides need to negotiate seriously. I know that whenever Israel gives up any little thing (something they stole), they always make a big deal about it, and the MSM and people like you applaud all their "generous" actions. Israel has taken so much and they aren't willing to offer anything that is fair or even consider certain basic international laws.
Palestinians walk away from negotiations because the other side is not serious, not because they enjoy their current situation. Anyway, Israel better hurry up and solve this, because with today's internet, they no longer have a stranglehold on information and the world opinion has shifted and will continue to shift. I expect Israel to disappear in the near future as I don't think they will change their ways.
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thedeath
kinniku, You familiar with Sura Al-Tawba’s chapter9? It is "the Ultimatum". let me say it one more time, that chapter is "the Ultimatum". and Verse 29 of that chapter said;
“Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger nor, acknowledge the Religion of Truth from among the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued.”
that chapter, that verse did explain why they keep fighting. conception of peace for those reading the book can be very difference from the rest of us.
"fight until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission and feel themselves subdued."
that is when the fight will be ended and when the peace will come for them.
now we got 3 group of people reading 3 books of doom. if everyone of them think that their book their religion is the only "Religion of Truth", the rest are not. what will happen? yeah they will keep on fighting those reject their god. something we are seeing today.
it point less talk about peace with them.
0
kinniku
One, the Palestinians walked away in 2000 from the closest thing to there being peace in the region when they walked away from negotiations. This is a fact that no one can deny. Two, Hamas has expressed no interest in talks leading to a real peace between an independent Israeli and Palestinian state side by side in peace.
However, you are incorrect that Palestinians have sat down with Israel for serious talks leading to peace. It has not been several times. For clarity, perhaps you can list some of those times you seem to think exist for people to examine and discuss.
Yes. Both sides and both sides need to actually come to the table. This means Hamas must give up its goal of destroying Israel as must all those who support such a goal...ahem, like you seem to constantly support... You seem to think that negotiating 'seriously' must lead to the destruction of Israel. You are incorrect.
I know that Israel has given up rather huge pieces of land and gotten rid of settlements on those pieces of land. Sorry if you don't think peace between Israel and Jordan and Egypt are good things. You see, civilized people think they are. It is a big deal. Since you hate Israel and your only real goal is to convince people that it shouldn't exist, you cannot see that peace is a big deal and movements toward peace are a big deal.
Ummm...No, something gained through wars. If Jordan had not gotten involved in 67 the West Bank would still be its problem...not that they ever planned to give it to the Palestinians. In fact, they are presently revoking the Jordanian citizenship of Palestinians that have lived their whole lives in Jordan. Speaking of stealing things...
You don't know that and you are not in any position to say that. If the other side, the Israelis are still at the table (and they were when the Palestinians walked away), they were serious.
Meh...people have been speaking this way for years. It has not helped the Palestinians. Right now, it is the Palestinians who are not agreeing to negotiate, not the Israelis. It is the Palestinians who have more to gain and nothing to lose by negotiating. Time is on the side of Israel, not the Palestinians, make no mistake.
Meh. People like you have been saying this for decades. In fact, that helped start the 67 war and got Jordan involved. Yet, it has gotten the Palestinians absolutely nothing.
As I wrote before, Israel is not disappearing anytime soon. This is the reality. The Palestinians will get their own nation. It will not be at the expense of the existence of Israel. Of course, it is rather hard to believe you care about the Palestinians so much when you claimed the BNP, an extremist anti-Muslim political party in Britain had logic to their argument. In fact, you really do not seem to know very much about Palestinians, Islam or the Middle East. It all seems to be a playground for you to vent your anti-Israeli, anti-Jewish bias. None of that has ever helped the Palestinians. Negotiations will. Israel has given back land and made peace with two nations, Egypt and Jordan and that peace has been stable and lasting. Palestinians should be negotiating for the same thing. I know you don't want this. However, it will happen.
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kinniku
thedeath,
I understand that some may feel that way. However, as you and I know, the only path left to the Palestinians is compromise and negotiations. Without these, nothing will change for them.
I respect all people's right to observe the faith(s) of their choice. However, this should not prevent them from being able to live in peace with others.
0
WilliB
thedeath:
I am less optimistic for you. I think the combination of pure demographics and Western dhimmitude will do Israel in.
Simple demographics mean that there are fewer Jews facing an ever growing muslim population, indoctrinated by their clerics with antisemitism. And Western dhimmitude makes our governments put presser on Israel to make ever more concessions in return for empty promises of "peace" from the muslim side, which are never fulfilled.
And don´t think that is the end of it. Israel is merely the canary in the coalmine.
0
sabiwabi
The world is catching on to Israeli crimes. Things will change in the near future. The Palestinians are no longer as helpless as they used to be. Hopefully they will continue to arm themselves with video cameras and show the world Israel's true nature. The only path left for Israel is to start following international law, UN resolutions, and principles of common human decency.
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kinniku
The world has seen both sides battling each other for many years now. However, your obvious bias prevents you from seeing both sides are responsible for the violent conflict and both sides need to make peace with each other.
Yes, they will someday make peace. There will be both an independent Israel and an independent Palestine side by side in peace. You will disappointed by this. No one will care that you are disappointed.
Yes, because: One) Israel agreed to allowed the Palestinians to have armed security and police forces. Two) Hamas receives support from Iran (as you now know because I taught you about the fact that Iran has admitted they support Hamas and Hezbollah). So, yes. They have a few more weapons. However, it would be a cruel joke to think that this makes them very powerful and that they should avoid negotiations for peace.
Both sides have been accused of bad behaviour over and over again. Your continued fantasies do not change this.
The only path left is for both Palestinians and Israelis to ignore extremist views (like yours) that see no reason for compromise. Compromise and negotiations is the only way to help the Palestinians and the only way toward a real peace between Israel and Palestine. Nothing you write changes this.
0
Noliving
Actually yes they are, they have no political unity and as a result becomes very difficult for any type of negotiations to even take place that would be effective, whatever agreement the PA makes Hamas will not accept.
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