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© 2014 AFPIsrael pounds Gaza as Palestinians urge resumption of truce talks
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© 2014 AFP
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SenseNotSoCommon
Hitting places of worship will really win hearts and minds in the region.
bass4funk
Then tell Hamas not to hide their weapons in them, then no one has to worry about hurting those hearts and minds.
WA4TKG
NoCommonSense:
If you store arms in any building, or fire from it, then it magically becomes a legal military target.
SenseNotSoCommon
as determined by the Dahiya doctrine:
and substantiated by IDF ClipArt (hat tip to Bibi's tweet):
http://f8wee1vvia32pdxo527grujy61.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Bs_LtbZCUAM02M0.jpg
Serrano
I'm starting to think the Palestinians are not going to get rid of Hamas by themselves and Israel is going to have to do it for them...
yabits
Projectiles? Why should a state that murders hundreds of children believe that it should be immune to attack?
Serrano
Why should a terrorist organization be allowed to continue to launch missiles at a neighboring country?
bass4funk
Why should the state allow a terrorist organization with the same ideology as Al Qaeda, Hezbollah that want to systematically wipe out and murder every Jew if given the chance, why should the state sit back and let their citizens be massacred? If Hamas really cared about their people, they would never hide bombs in schools, Mosques, homes among women and children, it's their own choice and their own demise.
sighclops
@SenseNotSoCommon
Not to take sides, but it's been proven that Hamas intentionally place their mortars & rocket pods in heavily-populated civilian areas. Again, I'm not choosing sides - Israel's attacks are also devastating and horrific in their nature, but Hamas need to be removed from Palestine before peace talks will be possible.
yabits
Have you checked out a map of Gaza? There are nearly 2 million people inhabiting less than 140 square miles, which means no place is far from a heavily-populated civilian area.
Second, what is the actual threat represented by these "projectiles?" Do they justify the slaughter of hundreds of children?
It is the Zionist state that is acting like terrorists. The projectiles that Hamas is shooting at them are extremely low on the scale of any kind of existential threat. As for "Jew," I do not know who you are referring to. The Muslims and Jews -- genuine, Torah-observant Jews -- got along amicably and peacefully for centuries in Palestine. The Zionists would rather you not acknowledge that.
There is a very important reason that the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem spoke to the United Nations in 1947, pleading with them not to allow the Zionists to speak on behalf of, or represent the interests of true, Torah-observant Jews, and not to allow them to create a Zionist state in Palestine. The Zionists would rather you not acknowledge that either.
Finally, Hamas. The Zionist state has to take responsibility for creating Hamas. They admit it: "Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction." source: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847
Why did Israel willfully foster and encourage what you are calling a terrorist organization? Is the killing of many hundreds of innocent people the way to take responsibility? Or perhaps is it because creating an extremely fanatical -- although militarily weak -- organization provides the necessary "cover" to slaughter innocent Arabs?
SenseNotSoCommon
Thanks, sighclops,
Unpalatable as it may be, Hamas are the majority party in the Palestinian Legislative Council, which covers Gaza and West Bank.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006
How do you suggest Hamas are removed without causing a third (and bloodier) Intifada?
Perhaps some other posters could also enlighten us. Pax.
bass4funk
@yabits
So, I guess that means, it's perfectly OK to attack people because of your living conditions, that's your excuse for resulting to deadly violence? Try again!
But it was Hamas that started firing rockets into Israel. Yabits, show me the report where Israel started firing rockets into Gaza recently, go on! I'm waiting for that report, if you can produce one.
So that means, there is NO possible way that a person could EVER lose their life if one of those rockets hit them indiscriminately is what you are trying to say.
Yabits, keep digging. Lol
The Zionist state has to take responsibility for creating Hamas.
No, they are not children, they are adults and everyone has to be responsible for their actions and that includes Hamas. They are ultimately responsible for themselves. Yabits, when do you ever hold people like Obama or Hamas responsible for their actions or lack thereof?
You personally know all of these individuals to be innocent and you know this because....
You meant, Israelis, there I fixed it for you.
sighclops
@yabits
That is an irrational argument. I think we both know that nothing on this earth would justify that. The "threat" is not the issue. The video below will highlight my point:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_fP6mlNSK8
SenseNotSoCommon
Happy to oblige:
http://www.timesofisrael.com/hamas-fired-rockets-for-first-time-since-2012-israeli-officials-say/
Wow, a new low, not that the benchmark was particularly high. 448 dead children were terrorists, then?
yabits
@sighclops: I have watched the video. Very interesting. Now consider this question: What would be the purpose of bombing ANY of the buildings around the "open field" where the projectile was launched, and possibly killing many innocents? That little tent that Hamas erected could be set up anywhere. Once the projectile has been launched, that specific area is no longer a threat. To suggest that it is is completely irrational.
bass4funk writes: "So that means, there is NO possible way that a person could EVER lose their life if one of those rockets hit them indiscriminately is what you are trying to say."
As you yourself imply, on the scale of threats from zero to 10, where 10 represents complete annihilation, and 0 represents complete safety, each of these projectiles has proven to represent a 1 or 2. In response to this flaccid threat, the Zionist state slaughters hundreds of small children -- who must be presumed innocent -- in addition to hundreds of other civilians. As sighclops's video says, it is because the Zionist state "chooses" to retaliate.
SuperLib
Well Yabits the bigger question is how practical the rockets are in terms of bringing peace to Gaza. I know that you defend and support rocket attacks so we can skip the part where we debate if they are justified or not.
The end result that I see from rocket fire is the death of innocents and the peace process takes a big step back. The only thing that's achieved is a short-term feeling of revenge. When I talk to some people the impression I get is that they are more interested in revenge than peace and you fit the bill.
Suzu1
Hamas showed its level of concern for the wellbeing of Gaza residents when it spent several hundred million dollars building terror tunnels instead of using that money to improve civilian infrastructure or facilities.
Mike O'Brien
Would that be the same Palestinian negotiators who said they wouldn't negotiate until Israel gave in to their demands? The same negotiators who are representatives of the group(s) that launched attacks on Israel before the last ceasefire ended and increased the attacjks after the ceasefire ended? Sounds like they are the ones that didn't want to negotiate. I guess they thought the international community would force Israel to give in and when it didn't happen they were clueless what to do. Don't you hate it when the playbook you have used for decades doesn't work any more.
They got those seats in 2006. There hasn't been an election since. Maybe a new election would find them losing some if not most of those seats. And an election shouldn't cause an Intifada.
bass4funk
@sense
No, of course NOT, so the ultimate blame should go with the people that put the kids in these places KNOWING full well these facilities would targeted. You don't hide weapons and rockets in schools, places of worship and homes, that suicidal, but wait, martyrdom is their mantra, so why would they care if the kids die, so I guess, for them, it makes rational sense to hide these weapons among the children, just don't cry about it screaming that you care when you really don't in actuality.
@yabits
As you yourself imply, on the scale of threats from zero to 10, where 10 represents complete annihilation, and 0 represents complete safety, each of these projectiles has proven to represent a 1 or 2. In response to this flaccid threat,
Dude, you are so full of nonsense.
Then don't hide the weapons in the schools and Mosques and in homes where you would find a lot of children. They money that they get for aid, maybe if they would use that money to feed their people, make better living conditions instead of building rockets KNOWING that if they fire them, they are going to GET IT, then they would be doing something productive instead of counter productive. Hamas is the problem and the burden for the Gazans.
Nightshade 2014
Looking at the article, and the comments given here, I get a better picture of why there has not to date been a peaceful resolution to this old old old conflict. How sad.
Soundbytes heard from TV or one's favorite magazine (unless one intakes news from both "sides") are not going to give one the factual basis upon which to condemn either side to attack, destruction and death. The idea of who fired first has a longer memory than the current round of debates. This is not a weeks-old issue, or even a months-old issue. It goes back a lot longer than that. It's a cycle of attack, defend, and then retaliate, on both sides. It's reductive to draw a line so recent.
So I believe all of us commenters should avoid the over-simplistic summaries of who did what during the past week or few weeks. It's a conflict, people are attacking each other, and people are dying. Should it matter WHICH people are dying? I doubt it. That is a difficult and dangerous point to debate anyways. Can we stop the killing, or do we want it to go on?
And before anyone tries to twist what I just wrote, I believe that ALL attacks on a neighbor (no sides taken here) are illegal and unacceptable, which is in accordance with the UN Charter (Article 2) and various ICJ rulings.
Am I a silly romanticist to believe that humans are big enough to find a way to find common ground? If so, I apologize, and in that case, please just disregard my comments.
SenseNotSoCommon
SuperLib,
Indeed, and lack of evidence doesn't stop them:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/182364#.U-fxCVYfIaY http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/killed-turning-onslaught.html
Suzu1
Look what the globally respected National Geographic has to say on the matter:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2014/07/140721-gaza-strip-tunnels-israel-hamas-palestinians/
Mike O'Brien,
Yes, Hamas's electoral mandate was wearing thin. One reason the US, EU, Turkey, China and India all supported the national unity government announced by Fatah and Hamas this April (to be sworn in six weeks later), and to be followed by elections in the new year.
Despite Hamas honoring their 2012 ceasefire, however, Bibi (threatened by peace?) was livid.
http://www.timesofisrael.com/netanyahu-abbas-must-choose-between-israel-and-hamas/#ixzz3A1tf91qy
So what's next? Should Palestinians be allowed a modicum of self-determination? Or must what they do, and where they do it, continue to be dictated by a military occupation, fueling intifadas ad infinitum?
yabits
When faced with seven decades of brutal ethnic cleansing by the Zionist state, there are more important matters than a false peace.
I would support a Jewish person's right to violently resist a Nazi siege in a place like the Warsaw Ghetto -- where they also used tunnels to smuggle in supplies and weapons. You are suggesting that you would not. Let's not forget that it has been the Zionists who have, from their outset, wanted to wipe Palestine off the map entirely and replace it with a state called "Israel."
Wrong. The disproportionate retaliation on an innocent population under occupation reveals the true face of the brutal oppressor. Because you know absolutely nothing about the brutal nature of the occupation on a day to day basis -- what peaceful Palestinians have had to endure for decades -- you foolishly believe yourself astute in regards to a "peace process." Watch the film Five Broken Cameras -- It is the Zionists who do not want peace. If they did, they would not ever steal an inch of land that was not theirs -- EVER -- for building an illegal settlement.
And yet they are planning hundreds more. And you talk about a peace process?
The common ground will be found in a common, unitary state, where every person has one vote. Not in two states where one is a racist military power (and a minority) that dominates and brutally oppresses a majority population.