Israel vows to back soldiers accused of war crimes
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0
SuperLib
....but are they building a a case to use in court? Or....wait....maybe they know about the Palestinian struggle. Building a case against them would seem pretty heartless, ne?
0
grafton
Israel already knows what kina of “justice” to expect in the world.
I just wonder why, before the fighting nobody was talking about war crimes when hamas was firing rockets at civilians? Oh, sorry, I forget, they were Jews.
0
Roger2
Sooner or later Israel will have no viable alternative but to listen to what the indigenous Palestinians have to say. Sine Israel have signed under the 4th Geneva Conventions and say that they have not committed any war crimes then why not defend their case in the International Court of Justice? What are they afraid of?
0
sabiwabi
Exactly, and they will never extradite an "Israeli citizen" for doing what they are expected to do.
We've known for some time that criminals from around the world can find refuge in Israel is they meet certain "criteria".
0
sabiwabi
The Israelis are attempting to obstruct justice and destroy evidence of their war crimes by preventing the prosecution of Israelis for their crimes and by masking the identity of Israeli soldiers in press video and photographs in Israel. Those bodies pursuing justice for the victims of Israeli war crimes should also prosecute the guilty Israeli officials for obstructing justice and destroying evidence.
0
irishosaru
> Except not fire on buildings where they had admitted knowing civilians, as well as Hamas, were occupying.
But to build a case against only Israel is ridiculous. Hamas rocket fire into Israel also needs to be prosecuted.
0
sabiwabi
But here is one soldier Israel would like to punish severely for his crime:
http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=em2JB6eysQo
What he did is totally unacceptable!
0
smithinjapan
"The state of Israel will fully defend those who acted on its behalf"
Fine, so take the state of Israel to court for violating human rights as well!
"The state of Israel did everything in order to avoid hitting civilians. I do not know of any military that is more moral, fair and sensitive to civilians’ lives,”
Funniest statement of the day. It's pretty clear that this is only talk, and in fact once Israel has 'warned' the Palestinian civilians that they are going to bomb their inescapable fenced-in camps, they don't give one iota about civilian lives and pass the buck onto the next person, saying "We care... look at these leaflets!"
I'm glad the fighting has stopped, at least, but Israel must be held accountable for the over-excessive force they used in retaliation for Palestinian rockets that killed no one until Israel invaded. And before someone wants to come on here and say that in the past 9 years in fact 15 or so people have been killed (including the 11 since this war began), then I ask you why Israel attacked now with such extreme force, and suddenly withdrew on the day a certain person was inaugurated.
0
skipthesong
then I ask you why Israel attacked now with such extreme force, and suddenly withdrew on the day a certain person was inaugurated." actually, in my own opinion, I think Israel is scared. They were attacked a number of times by neighboring countries and none of those countries' soldiers received any type of flack. I think they feel that soon the world is going to be on its enemies' sides, I think they sense an obliteration coming.
0
timorborder
What a mess, on one side you have Israel working together with Willy Pete, and on the other you have HAMAS showing its benevolence by both using Palestinian civilians as shields, and running around with death squads knocking off member of the PLO.
Just out of interest, when I was doing my orifice (officer) training many years ago, ethics was actually a rather big topic. The basic message from my superiors was that any breach of ethics would result in yours truly being swung from a lamp post. Moreover "just following orders" is no defence, although it has been tried on by many people, including the clown who ordered the Malmedy Massacre. As a soldier, irrespective of which side you are fighting for, there can be no defense for unconsciousable acts. If these Israeli soldiers did what some people accuse them of, then after being found guilty they should be put up against the wall and shot. The same goes for those HAMAS clowns as well.
0
williamsmith
The USA will also not send its troops to international tribunals. In the case of Israeli soldiers; well I believe murder is murder. I think that Olmert has no choice but to strongly support them so that he isn't left vulnerable to the same sort of charges. But then again who cares? It is only the losers who are left hanging (Saddam Hussein for example, but no international court involved there). One of the main problems with people who support or defend the violence is that they are not considering the people involved as humans. If you humanize the story then this is an atrocity without question. It is indefensible violence with absolutely no chance of a positive outcome. Violence has never solved anything, ever. An eye for an eye leaves both sides blinded. These arguments that go back and forth about rockets and such shows a real lack of intelligence. Murder is murder. The people were real.
0
Ranger_Miffy
I think the Hamas bombs were pretty small potatoes in power and range. Certainly nothing compared to the Israeli bombs, and their attack. But then, the Israeli attack does not really seem to have much to do with Hamas. They are just a smokescreen for the larger interests...
0
sabiwabi
I don't expect Olmert or other top Israeli officials visiting Europe any time soon.
Skip, I think your right. It is becoming clearer and clearer that this slaughter had nothing to do rockets. Hamas was trying very hard to negotiate real peace with Israel and maybe Israel felt Obama would help out. Israel panicked and made sure real peace will not be achieve for another couple of generations.
But these war crime charges would involve many senior Israelis. Israel will never allow any Israeli to be prosecuted fro war crimes. So the only way might be to invade Israel and capture these criminals.
0
Helter_Skelter
With the type of asymmetrical warfare waged by terrorist groups like Hamas, civilians are going to be killed, especially when being used as human shields. It's exactly what the terrorists want. And yet, the predictable accusation of Israeli "war crimes" will come up from the usual suspects (Socialists, Islamists, etc.). So it make sense Israel should back its soldiers. Hamas truly is guilty of war crimes by specifically targeting Israeli citizens and endangering the lives of "Palestinians".
An impartial count I'm sure.
0
likeitis
I think there a few things some of you are overlooking:
1) Israel is a full fledged member of the U.N., accepted as a peace loving nation, in those exact words. Gaza Strip and its Palestinian population are not U.N. members. Of course the U.N. goes after the signatories to U.N. conventions more than anybody else!
2) Gaza Strip was occupied and controlled by Israel, and as far as I can see, still are. Israel is trying to shirk its obligations to Gaza Strip by making a show of removing troops, but the amount of control they exercise constitutes the same obligations as far as I can see. The U.N. probably believes, as I do, that Israel has created its own problems by time and time again ignoring U.N. resolutions, despite being a U.N. member.
3) How do you trace an unguided supped up hobby rocket that hit a random target to a specific militant anyway?
I think the U.N. is far more interested in pursuing the big potatoes it can prove and prosecute rather than the small potatoes it can't prove nor prosecute. Who isn't?
0
Helter_Skelter
They withdrew because they didn't want Obama to be burdened with an Israeli-Palestinian conflict going on when he first took office. But I sure hope it wasn't at the expense of not completing their mission of substantially reducing Hamas terrorist's rocket firing capabilities. That would be a mistake.
0
williamsmith
One of the main problems with people who support or defend the violence is that they are not considering the people involved as humans. If you humanize the story then this is an atrocity without question. It is indefensible violence with absolutely no chance of a positive outcome. Violence has never solved anything, ever. An eye for an eye leaves both sides blinded. These arguments that go back and forth about rockets and such shows a real lack of intelligence. Murder is murder. The people were real.
0
skipthesong
I really don't think Hamas should get off scott free! They have after all been antagonizing/Instigating Israel. Did they really have to? I don't buy that they are throwing rockets in defence. I think knew all too well that Israel, if it were to respond, would respond with power and that was their gamble, of course at the cost of lives.
I can't see any logical reason for them to fire the rockets. I hope, while everyone is screaming war crimes against Israel, they hold Hamas accountable as well. And I hope that perhaps Hamas learned a lesson that this sort of gamble is not worth the international spotlight.
0
sabiwabi
Strange that you cannot see the logic. Gazans are prisoners living under terrible conditions in an overcrowded concentration camp and the Israelis are the ones who want to keep them enslaved and prevent aid from reaching them. One side (Gaza) deserves our help while the other (Israel) deserved a major spanking.
The lesson they want to teach Hamas is that the Gazans should just accept their misery, there is no way out of it.
Fortunately, the world is catching on and they will finally be able to help. Seems Israel has dug its own grave with this last slaughter, which is just too obvious a war crime to spin, although some still try to spin it.
0
adaydream
Everybody forgets or refuses to accept that Israel attacked Gaza and killed Palestinians before Hamas fired the rockets that they say they are retaliating for. But then, who cares? It's only those damn Gazans who live on that ugly strip of land that they either want and/or they just want the population gone.
If I was Olmert, I'd feel this way for my officers, also. He ought to. He's the one who gave the orders to attack. I can't imagine the use of White Phosphorus without the okay from the very top either.
Olmert is protecting his ass. He's not kidding anybody. < :-)
0
sabiwabi
"When you attack schools, mosques, ambulances, hospitals, UN relief organizations, what is that? If this is not terrorism, then what is terrorism?"
The war crime charges should go to Olmert, Livni, and Barak all the way down to whoever pulled the trigger or pushed the launch button. Just following orders is no defense.
0
sharky1
If governments don't protect their troops from outside prosecution, the military forces would not be able to maintain any discipline. Troops would not obey orders to fight, and then only the nations who don't care about world opinion would be able to wage war. Where would we be then?
0
AlfGarnett
Them what commiteted the genocide, even protects any of its soldiers, even if they is guilty of killing innocents.
This shows why ths nation is despised worldwide with mass demonstrations against their wicked policies.
They are no good, and are a trouble maker of the Mid East, causing nothing but death and carnage, and the bleeding government sanctio it and protect murderers, beyond bloody belief!!
0
skipthesong
sabi,
Your unconditional support, along with three other posters, is why Hamas continues their rockets. I on the other hand do not give Israel unconditional support, but when a group comes into existence with only one goal and that is to destroy me, how can you expect me to trust your kind? Israel is there, it is there from what was taken from them, it is there what was promised to them, it is there in its size because a war waged against them was lost. ON the other side of the country, 1/4 million Palestinians have applied for Israeli citizenship but Hamas makes sure people of the Gaza don't do that.
Israel is not the trouble maker. Just like many on this board supported several groups calls for independence, you should not give a pass them and then turn around a say hey Jews, you have no right to claim a land..
0
sabiwabi
No, its because Israel ignores ceasefires. Not only did Israel never lift the military blockade, which was a condition of the ceasefire, they broke the ceasefire when they murdered 6 Hamas members last November. Hamas wants peace, and this is what Israel is so afraid of
0
sabiwabi
As stated years ago by prominent Israeli military analyst, Zeev Schiff, "the Israeli Army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously ... the Army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets ... [but] purposely attacked civilian targets."
This allows Israel to implement, undisturbed, its programs of illegal expansion and harsh repression.
Later Abba Eban commented "of an Israel wantonly inflicting every possible measure of death and anguish on civilian populations in a mood reminiscent of regimes which neither Mr.Begin nor I would dare to mention by name."
If Israel's latest actions are not war crimes, what is?
0
sabiwabi
I remember when Israel attacked Lebanon, many senior Israeli (and Lebanese) officials did not stick around, but were traveling far away (e.g., Europe). But with the upcoming arrest warrants, where will they hide next time they fight an enemy with long-range missiles. For example, if they decide to attack Iran.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Perhaps you could give us the sources of your Zeev Schiff and Abba Eban quotes so that we may see the context in which they were spoken.
0
sabiwabi
Its up to each soldier to understand what is happening and determine if they are doing the right thing. If they tell you to pour zyklon into a room packed with women and children, you better wake up and think! I am amazed at how many soldiers are willing to risk their lives and spend so much time training, but they don't bother learning what is going on.
0
sabiwabi
Wow kinniku, now you're talking about context? Anyway, I got it from Chomsky, in an article discussing this latest slaughter in Gaza.
http://www.chomsky.info/articles/20090119.htm
Although the above quotes were obviously about previous slaughters, to many of us, this last slaughter is nothing new, Israelis have done similar slaughters of innocent civilians countless times. I am hopeful that this time, they will be charged, sentenced, and punished.
0
AlfGarnett
wuzzademcrat: In Britian we have freedom to demonstarte without fear of being killed by missles.
Israel could learn a lot from Britain. We don't have government war policices of genocide, but your darling Israel does and kills thousand year upon year and destroys property year on year.
Mark my word , decent nation s unlike extremist USA want Israeli's punished, and if they dare travel to Europe they will be.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
I am all about context, you know that. You provided me with someone who has quoted these Eban and Schiff. I asked you for the sources of the quotes and the specific context...This is not clear in your link. Could you give me some specific sources such as an interview or something?
0
sabiwabi
Indeed, I know all too well how you abuse context to suit your agenda. Anyway, what do you think of Israeli soldiers being accused of war crimes? Do you continue to defend their genocidal actions?
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Does your response mean that you actually don't know the source and context of the quotes you used? If so, that means you really don't know if the quotes are accurate and if they in fact have anything whatsoever to do with this discussion.
As to your question, I have nothing investigations into war crimes. I can also understand a country backing their soldiers. I would expect the same from Japan, the US, Iran or any other country. If a country is not willing to back up their own soldiers, they do not deserve to have any soldiers.
0
sabiwabi
kinniku, As to the context of those quotes, I only have what is explained in the Chomsky article, which I found to very consistent with what I have observed these past years, so I have no reason to search their original source. If you suspect differently, feel free to investigate, I certainly will not do it for you.
I certainly do not doubt that Israel has intentionally targeted civilians and humanitarian aid people. Chomsky has identified prominent people saying the same. You are certainly free to believe that Israel tries to minimize civilian casualties.
0
skipthesong
No, its because Israel ignores ceasefires. Not only did Israel never lift the military blockade, which was a condition of the ceasefire, they broke the ceasefire when they murdered 6 Hamas members last November. Hamas wants peace, and this is what Israel is so afraid of"
Sabi, I don't quite understand. Are you for letting Israel exist, with conditions of course? Hamas isn't. Hamas wants peace, I can't bring myself to believe that. Not saying your lying, but that is a hard pill to swallow.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Well, it is certainly your choice to take the word of one article with no references, sources or context. However, Chomsky's piece is an opinion editorial and not a documentary. I would question any piece that does not make sources and context clear...
I think it is prudent to actually see what comes from an investigation of the facts on the ground before jumping to conclusions. I remember a great uproar after the Battle of Jenin when many in the media reported of hundreds (over 500 I believe) of mass graves and dead. When independent agencies actually went in and investigated they found the numbers were not more than 50 dead and most of them were independently identified as combatants. This is not to say there were no criticisms then of Israel. There were.
In fact, then IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz said that it was these rumours that made him realize the press should have been given more freedom to report directly. I think they should have learned their lesson and let the press in this time...
0
Roger2
Israel will have to stop behaving like renegades and participate responsibly and peacefully in international organizations. It is especially crucial that they agree to the jurisdiction of the international criminal court. Once they agree to the jurisdiction of the international criminal court will see shocking trials revealing stuff that will make Nuremberg and Yugoslavia seem like a tea party.
0
sabiwabi
Indeed, that's why I don't take seriously anything you write; especially since you have so clearly exposed your bias you've even admitted to making stuff up (recall the DNA analysis posts).
They might be right, but I have seen too many "independent agencies" come up with bogus conclusions. And since, as you stated, the press was not given freedom to report, who knows what Israel has done with the bodies before the so-called investigation. Anyway, just have a look at the aerial photos of the place, its hard to believe only 50 Palestinians were murdered.
Indeed it is my choice. But if his article is consistent with everything I have seen these past years, I won't bother looking up his information. I could spend time looking up your information, but since you have so clearly exposed your bias, why bother.
0
SuperLib
In other news, Hamas released a statement today saying they are going to do everything in their power to increase the frequency and intensity of their war crimes.
0
SuperLib
kinniku: I think they should have learned their lesson and let the press in this time...
Agreed. Israel's ban on journalists in Gaza meant that Hamas got to control the images and messages. A very, very poor choice by Israel, even if it meant keeping a few reporters alive who would could have been killed during the battle.
0
sabiwabi
Skip,
Look closely at what Israel has done to the people of Gaza. They are held prisoners in an overcrowded concentration camp without sufficient drinking water, food, medicine, and fuel. Israel then enters and intentionally targets civilians, UN workers, and UN schools. I’m sorry if this offends anyone, but it is now completely understandable for Hamas to want Israel wiped off the map; look at what Israel has done to them.
But one must also consider that what Israel has done these past few weeks, they have done many times before, starting long before the appearance of Hamas. What is irrational is not Hamas wanting to wipe Israel off the map, but of Israel to expect others to accept Israel’s existence after what it has done ever since it appeared on the map.
0
SuperLib
Honestly, at times I do find your propaganda to be somewhat offensive, but whuddayagunnado (shrugging).
0
grafton
Sabiwabi & Kinniku.
You two have got to be lawyers, who else would spend so much time & energy arguing details, dates, times, places, names, you name it you two argue about it. I would hate to be in the same room as you two. The details are nothing more than excuses for why you support one side or the other, they are details to hide behind & give your feelings a cover of informed reason. Why not put all that aside in at least one of your posts & state an honest feeling?
I support what Israel is doing, though I know that like any country there will be good people & bad, & as such it must follow that some of what has happened these last weeks must have been crimes. But that goes for both sides in this conflict. To say the hamas is just small potatoes by comparison to Israel is nonsense, The size of a crime & the ability to find & prosecute the perpetrator makes no difference. But justice must be equal & where Israel is concerned it never will be, the Israeli propaganda machine is nowhere near as good as the dead children of hamas.
My reasoning is that hamas wanted this conflict so that it could put its dead children on display. Maybe they felt that they needed to go this far to get the world to take an interest, & in that respect they seem to have got it right. This of course would not exonerate an Israeli war criminal, but it would show him/her in a very different light. Because people who for whatever reason deliberately put their children at risk to win a propaganda victory cannot afterwards ask for justice without also facing that same justice.
Arguing the details of what has happened is get lost in the smoke, we all watched as hamas fired rocket after rocket creating a state of terror for those that might get hit by one. It was obvious that Israel would eventually react, they had no choice & hamas knew that, it was what they were aiming for & finally got. For hamas it was a propaganda war & reading the worlds press they won, the gullible bleeding hearts are out there in force condemning Israel.
That may no make Israel innocent, but neither does it forgive what hamas put its own people through. Judge one & you must judge all, & do so honestly.
0
SezWho2
skipthesong,
When have the Palestinians--or Hamas--ever gotten off scot-free?
0
Madverts
sabi,
"it is now completely understandable for Hamas to want Israel wiped off the map; look at what Israel has done to them."
I'm sorry, but a couple of weeks ago the radical crowd were calling Israeli intervention in Gaza "genocide". Now you are advocating what one could genuinely call "genocide" as "completely understandable" in retort?
Once again I'm glad to give support to neither side of these bitter factions and their un-reasonable and at times shrieking supporters.
0
bobbafett
If hamas can celebrate suicide bombers that blatantly kill civilians aboard buses etc then Israel can protect its soldiers against alleged war crimes.
0
adaydream
Israel's refusal to allow news journalist into Gaza allowed them the opportunity to bomb and kill at will and to keep the images of this carnage down.
Israel is protecting themselves as much as they are protecting their military servicemen. The government of Israel allowed the (WP) and they authorized the bombing at schools. < :-)
0
sailwind
Or maybe to prevent them from being kidnapped. How soon you forget.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/fromourown_correspondent/7048652.stm
0
bobbafett
but hamas stray rockets that can hit anywhere are ok? or hamas suicide bombers that choose civilian targets, not military ones are fine? Hey, if hamas wants to play the game, they met their match.
0
adaydream
Israel concerned about journalist being kidnapped? Please don't make me laugh. Considering the destruction and the attempted mass killing by bombing schools and places where innocent Gazans were hiding from (WP) and 2000 pound bunker busters, I understand why Israel didn't want the pictures coming out while they were killing.
Yeah, Israel trying to protect their own asses. < :-)
0
adaydream
So Hamas was not supposed to protect themselves from Israel terrorists that killed Gazans in November? Gaza was just supposed to allow their citizens to be murdered by Israel during the 6 month truce?
I see how this was supposed to work. Isreal is supposed to be allowed to murder at will with their U. S. weapons of destruction. Right. < :-)
0
bobbafett
In recent history the strongest side in a war has attracted negative media attention which has caused them to lose. Ask uncle Sam.
If Hamas could do what Israel did they would do it much worse and would never stop until all Jews were dead. The media would have castrated them if that was the case.
0
adaydream
Let's remember that the U. S. supplied Israel with the weapons or the money to purchase them.
Israel used conventional rockets amd missiles fired from jets supplied by the U. S. or the money to purchase them. Hamas used homemede rockets that they built in basements.
Then Israel uses (WP) provided by the U. S.
The only reason that Israel stopped was because Barack Obama was coming into office. They knew that george bush was supportive of Israel's killer tactics and that george bush would supply weapons of destruction.
They were not sure that Obama would give them the carte blanc support that george bush had given them. < :-)
0
LIBERTAS
"israel" equals War Crimes." The defence will be as it always is: "We are the victims, the descendants of the Holocaust (R) so anything we do is OK. And you´re anti-Semitic if you don´t agree." "israeli" victimhood knows no bounds. Of course it will "back" its soldiers. It´s in "the back" it shot all the Palestinian women and children. "Backing" is something "israel" does very well.
0
SuperLib
Sometimes I get the urge to just put intelligent conversation aside and debate with the pro-Hamas crowd on their level. The only difference is that it's a choice I'd have to make, and one I'd eventually regret making. They aren't burdened by such thoughts. I guess life just isn't fair sometimes....
0
Madverts
"Sometimes I get the urge to just put intelligent conversation aside and debate with the pro-Hamas crowd on their level."
Negotiating with fools ends the same way everytime - they always manage to drag you down to their level and then trounce you with experience.
0
Taraposa
some of the posters here debate with not havig enough background of information about the conflict
There are some prpoganda movies and there are some movies that show you the truth and explanation i am really curious to know if the pro terrorist here can call any or deny something on those sack of facts if the Hammas was not muslim regime the peace could be come years ago.
0
adaydream
Even if Israel was retaliating for some rockets, they used excessive force. They made an effort to punish people that have no control of government, Hamas, terrorist or tunnel diggers. Israel made a concerted effort to kill and punish the country of Gaza.
< :-)
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Nope. Never 'admitted to making stuff up' although you have written this several times. I was extremely forthright in that exchange, as I always try to be. I notice you cannot ever provide a quote of me saying this. Why purposefully be so misleading? However, speaking of recollections, I do remember you claiming in February 2006 that instead of millions of Jews being murdered mainly by gas that it was a few hundred thousand dying mainly from disease. However, you were never able to back that statement up even a year later claiming you 'hadn't had time to fact check'.
I guess you haven't had time to fact check this either, huh? Not even human rights organizations such as Amnesty International dispute the fact there was no massacre. This is one of the reasons you don't hear about this anymore.
Indeed, this seems to be a pattern with you. You often don't have a response to analysis about things you post. One can only suspect that you read a couple of words and decide something is true without actually fact checking. Let me be clear, if you were using Chomsky quote I could understand linking Chomsky. However you were using quotes of other people with no context or sources to attempt to support your argument. When using information to support your argument, one would naturally assume you have at least checked the information first...
Well, one would assume you would like the truth and that you would like to learn more. I noticed you certainly have great difficulty in providing areas of my argument that are mistaken and instead just give up instead. This leads me to believe you are not particularly confident in your own argument.
0
kinniku
grafton,
Actually, I am merely pointing out things that do not match with reality and that are not part of a sound argument. I certainly have seen you argue point for point over details being discussed. Do you find some errors in what I have written? If so, why not bring them up?
0
kinniku
Libertas,
There is no excuse for anti-semetism or any other form of racism. The problem is that while anti-semetism and anti-Israel are very different things. There are quite a number of people who are anti-both. Also, I have never heard anyone claim that it was okay for Israel to do anything it likes.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Don't worry about it. We are not offended.
0
kinniku
SuperLib,
Exactly. It was a horrible choice. Sad they haven't learned.
0
likeitis
The pro-Hamas crowd is not so large that you cannot identify them by name. Make your accusations clearly please.
As for myself I am both anti-Israel and anti-Hamas. But I am pro-Palestinian which means I am just not anti-Hamas enough for some people apparently. But to call me pro-Hamas would be like saying I support the Black Panther party because I support civil rights for blacks.
Moderator: The Black Panther party is not relevant to this discussion.
0
likeitis
Kinniku, most of those who seem so are confused I believe. You and I know the difference clearly. I think many are too simple in the head to see the difference. Once they have been convinced to be anti-Israel, its easy to sell the anti-Semitism to the simple mind. Therefore, I believe the number of people who are actually anti-both are few. The rest are just stupid and along for the ride.
0
kinniku
likeitis,
Very well put. I agree 100%.
0
sabiwabi
kinniku is probably also not a lawyer. My guess is that he is simply responding to a request by Israel's ministry of foreign affairs to "balance" public opinion. He brings up many details, dates, times, places, names, likely taken from Israeli information packages.
I'm not a lawyer and I rely on my own observations and past readings, so although I feel I have a good understanding of the conflict, I do not have notes and information handy to argue details.
Some have stated that they never paid much attention to the Israel/Palestine conflict until now, while I have been following it for several years. What Israel has done these past few weeks, they have done since even before its existence; its nothing new. So although I don't necessarily agree with everything Hamas does, I understand their actions.
To see this as simply Hamas firing rockets and Israel responding to rockets is simplistic and stupid in the extreme.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
I don't know about 'stupid'. However I agree that it is certainly simplistic. I feel the same way about people who would put 100% of the blame on either Israel or the Palestinians.
BTW, what is one thing you disagree with that Hamas does?
In my opinion, Israel made some bad mistakes in this specific conflict. One of which I discussed earlier, that being not allowing journalists into Gaza. However, they would have opened themselves up to 'Israelis enjoy killing journalists' kinds of comments often seen had any of the members of the media been killed. Still, it would have been better to have had the media in Gaza from the beginning.
0
SezWho2
I don't know what pro-Hamas crowd you are talking about, but you could try addressing the arguments that people make instead of reviling them because they make arguments you don't like. I think several posters here have made comments which are critical of Israel and understanding of the Palestinian position. I think they have also expressed understanding of why Hamas acts as it does. However, if there is a pro-Hamas crowd, that's news to me.
0
SezWho2
Taraposa,
Who are these people?
I think there are many who criticize Israel. That does not mean that they are pro-terrorist.
0
sabiwabi
Taraposa,
When one side attacks schools, mosques, ambulances, hospitals, UN relief organizations, what is that? If this is not terrorism, then what is terrorism?
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likeitis
Yeah, I have asked this question several times before. Surely they are few enough to call by name. Its not a rhetorical question, so anyone making this accusation, answer it.
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likeitis
And my observation is that he did not even bother to address this.
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sailwind
I haven't read any 'understanding' of why Hamas acts as it does. I've read lot's of excuses for why Hamas acts as it does. Oppression, Caged in a prison, second class citizens and on and on.
Understanding them would mean they are nothing but cold blooded killers and thugs who have no moral compass or compunction about killing innocent civilians on purpose.
That's understanding them. It isn't like they haven't proved what I wrote by their deeds.
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likeitis
Or is it just excuses to back up Israel attacking them? One man's understanding is another man's excuse.
I agree with both your "understandings" of Hamas, because I know that understanding human action is not a first grade level jigsaw puzzle. It is very very complicated. I also appreciate that even appreciating that fact, I still don't know the half of it. Nobody here does.
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sabiwabi
Sailwind, please tell me how long you would be willing to wait inside an overcrowded prison, under military blockade, in truly terrible conditions, before launching a rocket. Would you endure a week, a month, year, decade, six decades? This is a very long conflict, and the world has let the Palestinians down. The Palestinians have tried to negotiate for peace. What more can they do.
I just don't buy this argument some people make that this is just two groups who can't get along.
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likeitis
Me either. Even the Hatfields and McCoys would seem to have gotten started over a land dispute.
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kinniku
Both the Palestinians and the Israelis have made attempts at negotiations. That is not the issue. The current issue is that Hamas has not attempted to negotiate for peace (a 10 year truce with the final goal of getting all of 'Palestine' [although I doubt he means Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria etc) and its leader Mish'al has said specifically that his group would never formally recognize Israel. That is not what negotiating for peace means...
I don't like Olmert much, so I would not even be able to say that he would respond sensibly to a true 'let's have peace' announcement from Hamas. However, he will be out of office soon and hopefully a brighter bulb will replace him...
To get peace, you actually have to want peace...both sides...make that all sides...
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kinniku
Sorry...That should have been:
The current issue is that Hamas has not attempted to negotiate for peace (a 10 year truce with the final goal of getting all of 'Palestine' [although I doubt he means Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria etc]is not what true peace means) and its leader Mish'al has said specifically that his group would never formally recognize Israel. That is not what negotiating for peace means...
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sailwind
What's the target first? Launching a rocket at my oppressors military or launching one on purpose at their innocent civilians?
If it's at a Military target I'm fighting for my freedom.
If it's a civilian target then I am nothing more than a murderer.
I'm not a murderer the cause will never be great enough that I have to lie to myself that killing my oppressors children is now 'justified'.
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sabiwabi
Sailwind, I guess I forgot to specify that you would be limited to small unguided short-range rockets that cannot be targeted. You either fire the rocket or you don't. You can't decide where it goes.
OK, so lets move closer to the topic of this article. What do you think of Israel bombing schools, mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and UN relief organizations? Is this "justified"?
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bishamonten
sabiwabi at 06:36 PM JST - 27th January Sorry to break in on what you are doing, but I note that your question was missing a detail or two.
“OK, so lets move closer to the topic of this article. What do you think of Israel bombing schools, mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and UN relief organizations? Is this "justified"?
Should you not have added something about callous terrorist using those schools, mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and UN relief organizations for storing weapons &/or firing on the Isrealis?
You may feel that you have an understanding of motivations behind the actions Hamas takes, but I wonder, have you allowed for the fact that Hamas may not view honesty as a useful thing? They are fighting a propaganda war & propaganda has little if anything to do with truth. You have shown that you are ready to disbelieve anything that Israel may say, yet you believe what Hamas say.
Mephistopheles wants your soul, so I would say to be careful about all that you believe.
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likeitis
You don't get to choose the target with a Quassam rocket. Yet, its one of the few weapons in your arsenal while you go up against a vastly superior force.
As much as I prefer your spirit, I cannot see it succeeding in the Gazan situation.
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johancohen
how can Israel be accused of anything? it's sheer unjustifiable folly to present disputable vagrancies before Israel, not after. before the question comes the questioner. question them.
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loltehinterwebs
Israel is pro-freedom. Those who fire rockets at innocent Israelis will pay the price. They need to stand down NOW, before they dig their own graves.
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jeancolmar
Hitler couldn't have said better. Israel pro-freedom. Not for the Palestinians. Israel started the hostilities by imposing a blockade on Gaza. Firing the rockets was a futile act on the part of Hamas. But remember that before that Israel bombed Gaza because of tunnels--the only way the people could get need supplies.
What Israel did in Gaza was criminal. Israel will eventually pay a price for its crimes against humanity. All that is keeping it afloat is American support. That cannot be considered eternal. If Israel wants to survive and live in peace it has got to stop being a war criminal nation and allow the Palestinians to have an independent country.
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WilliB
Hamas, of course, never commits any war crimes. Shooting rockets at cities, kidnapping people, using the civilian population as human shields... that is all A OK. Nobody raises any eyebrowes about that.
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WilliB
jeancolmar:
Check some facts before repeating Hamas lies. Israel never blocked food and other supplies from entering Gaza. In fact, Israel also supplies (and continues to do so, electricity and fuel to Gaza).
The tunnels (which by the way originate from Egypt, which also keeps the Rafa crossing into Gaza closed; why is that never mentioned?) are used to smuggle weapons.
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