Israeli forces enter Gaza City neighborhood

Tuesday 13th January, 05:53 PM JST

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likeitis at 02:06 PM JST - 14th January

Sorry, but that just does not mirror reality. Israel returned the Sinai Pennisula (which, for a small country such as Israel, was a huge piece of land) to Egypt in return for peace.

This is pretty small piece of proof. Just as you say, Sinai is huge compared to Israel. After suffering Egyptian assaults as they did in the Yom Kippur war, I too would be happy to be rid of it if that is the price of keeping Egypt off my back and spreading my forces so thin.

But I too disagree with the idea that Israel has never given peace a chance. That is just saying too much. All sides in this have huge flaws.
likeitis at 02:07 PM JST - 14th January

Why not just spell out what you want to say instead of using rhetorical questions.

Because its a reply to Sarge. Nuff said.
kinniku at 03:07 PM JST - 14th January

likeitis,

I never claimed or believed any such things!

Ummm...this is like it is...you wrote in your response to me:

Have you considered what a mass depopulation of Gaza would mean for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, the government of Gaza, and for relations with Egypt?

Sorry, since we were talking about the 2005 handover and you are now claiming knowledge of that period of time, 'misunderstand' does not account for the fact that you seem to think there was a 'mass depopulation' of Gaza in 2005.

The thing is, I don't claim jack when I am not sure,

The thing is, you did assert massive depopulation when discussing the PA border handover and you were wrong.

2)If 1 is true, how is it possible unless Israel has had some form of blockade in place all that time?

Simply because having control over a border does not neccessarily mean you exhert a blockade over that border. The two are not mutually inclusive.

The pedestrian only border crossing of Rafah, the only Palestinian administered crossing, was closed %86 percent of the time BY ISRAEL from the middle of 2006 until 2007, when even that was closed completely. IE, the crossing was effectively closed long before the Hamas takeover, and by Israel no less.

First, it was closed by both Egypt and Israel. Second, as has been commented again and again, the reason for the closures was violence and smuggling along the border with Egypt that the PA could not control.

If one and two are correct, then Superlib's assessment that the blockade come after the rockets is completely incorrect.

No, because you are confusing border closings and all out blockades. They are not the same thing.

Sinai is huge compared to Israel. After suffering Egyptian assaults as they did in the Yom Kippur war, I too would be happy to be rid of it if that is the price of keeping Egypt off my back and spreading my forces so thin.

Umm...the Yom Kippur War was in 1973. Israel gave back the Sinai in 1979, six years later. There is no evidence to support that Israel's forces were 'spread so thin' as you assert. The fact is Israel wanted peace with Egypt and they gave the land back. Israel would also like to keep Gaza off their backs, which is why they pulled out in 2005. Which in a post before you seemed to be suggesting was giving away their (the Israelis) last bargaining chip. Again this doesn't make sense because as far as Gaza was concerned the border control was also a bargaining chip and still is...
likeitis at 04:05 PM JST - 14th January

The thing is, you did assert massive depopulation when discussing the PA border handover and you were wrong.

What part of "NO I DID NOT" is not getting through to you? Based on what I thought you were saying, I was asking you a question, because I DID NOT THINK WHAT YOU WERE SAYING WAS QUITE CORRECT, but was tentatively agreeing with what you said. I was cross examining you. I was fishing for more information, while being shocked that what you said might be true and considering implications of what it would mean. I CLAIMED NOTHING. Look through my posts. Its pretty clear when I am making a claim, and its not when I am asking a question.

I admitted having incomplete knowledge, yes? That is why I fish for more. That is why I test yours. It saves me time digging.

Simply because having control over a border does not neccessarily mean you exhert a blockade over that border. The two are not mutually inclusive.

That is arguable. My impression of a blockade is not an all or nothing deal. But do you not find it VITALLY important to include the information of Israel's high degree of control, rather than act like Israel went from no control, a state where Gazans could be expected to be happy, to a sudden blockade? Its not honest. Not honest at all.

the reason for the closures was violence and smuggling along the border with Egypt that the PA could not control.

For now, can we agree that it was not rockets? And can we also agree that smuggling was NOT happening through Rafah?

No, because you are confusing border closings and all out blockades. They are not the same thing.

Maybe if I say partial blockade it will be more understandable to you? And no, I am not confusing border closings with anything. I am looking at the big picture. When you control land, sea, and air except for one pedestrian border crossing, you have near complete control. Lets call it a partial blockade. (I did earlier assert a blockade "in some form".) And lets recognize that a partial blockade is not something any country subjected to it is going to be happy about.

Wiki says:

Blockades are often partial, with the object of denying the other side its major form of communication, or usable access to key resources.

The fact is Israel wanted peace with Egypt and they gave the land back.

Are there not people accusing Hamas of wanting peace only so they can rearm? Do you see me flat out denying the possibility? You see, there is the snow white desire to have peace, like peace on earth, and there is the grey to black desire for peace because it gives you a respite for later fighting or so that you can concentrate forces elsewhere.

Considering that Israel got pummeled hard in the opening of the Yom Kippur War, I find it very likely they gave up Sinai the very first opportunity they got. And quickly running like dogs out of Sinai is the kind of opportunity that shows weakness to your enemies, and that is not something Israel does.

There is no evidence to support that Israel's forces were 'spread so thin' as you assert.

I think when Egypt made their way into Sinai using pontoon boats, it showed that the whole of Sinai was vulnerable to attack, and I seriously doubt Israel had the forces to hold the coasts in such an event. Holding on for six years is about right, since it was six years from 67 for that first Egyptian counter attack.

Believe what you want, but just know that my opinion is based on details and facts and not on good or bad feelings for or opinions of anyone.
likeitis at 04:18 PM JST - 14th January

Which in a post before you seemed to be suggesting was giving away their (the Israelis) last bargaining chip. Again this doesn't make sense because as far as Gaza was concerned the border control was also a bargaining chip and still is...

I did not say "last" chip. I said a chip.

And it makes perfect sense. It was not pulling out of Gaza that was the problem. The problem was doing it unilaterally rather than after a negotiation. Then expecting the Gazans to act a certain way without being consulted.

If you want to annoy some Arabs selling at a market place, NEVER bargain with them. Buy at the prices they first float. Or worse, ask the price and walk off without barter. On the other hand, if you want respect, barter strongly but fairly. Every time you reach a deal, respect is earned. Its a matter of course in the Arab world.
kinniku at 04:36 PM JST - 14th January

Based on what I thought you were saying, I was asking you a question, because I DID NOT THINK WHAT YOU WERE SAYING WAS QUITE CORRECT, but was tentatively agreeing with what you said.

What could you have thought I was saying? You clearly should have understood what we were talking about as I mentioned the year, 2005 and the handover. Only someone unaware of the handover, and more to the point unaware of even the recent history of Gaza, would have asked a question about mass depopulation from Gaza. Sorry, you can attempt to backtrack all you would like. The fact remains you are becoming the ELIZA program Middle East discussion version. You hop about and ask rhetorical questions and attempt to play devil's advocate when a simple Google search would help you so much.

You claim I was not completely truthful. How so? Because Egypt requires visas of people from quite a few countries before they can enter their country? This is a completely misunderstanding of the meaning of passing through a border 'freely'. Freely does not mean 'for free'. Anyway, had you been aware of the conditions of the pullout and the handover and the attitudes of the parties concerned and what they talked about and agreed upon, you would never have tried to 'fish' with a completely unrelated question about mass depopulation.

That is why I fish for more. That is why I test yours. It saves me time digging.

Again, asking questions on an opinion board is not supposed to be a replacement for actually learning something on your own. Why test my knowledge with unrelated (for as you must know discussions of things like mass depopulation was completely unrelated) questions and tangents.

For now, can we agree that it was not rockets? And can we also agree that smuggling was NOT happening through Rafah?

No, we cannot. In 2006, the Rafah tunnels were being used for smuggling. Rockets is but one of the problems between Israel and Gaza.

Considering that Israel got pummeled hard in the opening of the Yom Kippur War, I find it very likely they gave up Sinai the very first opportunity they got. And quickly running like dogs out of Sinai is the kind of opportunity that shows weakness to your enemies, and that is not something Israel does.

First, Israel got pummeled from all sides, particularly Syria. Second, the disengagement from Sinai went on until 1982. So I have no idea what you are going on about finding it very likely they wanted to get rid of Sinai at the first opportunity and then you write that quickly running like dogs is not something Israel does.

The facts are that Israel held Sinai and had settlements in Sinai from 1967 to its complete disengagement in 1982. Your serious doubts about whether Israel could hold on to Sinai do not hold much water as they did hold on to Sinai from 1967 through the Yom Kippur War and on to the 1979 agreement. Maybe it is time for you to stop guessing and read about the history as you seem to enjoy suggesting to others.

Holding on for six years is about right, since it was six years from 67 for that first Egyptian counter attack.

Israel continued to hold on to it until 1979, so it was not just six years.

Believe what you want, but just know that my opinion is based on details and facts and not on good or bad feelings for or opinions of anyone.

Sadly, this does not seem to be the case at all. You seem to guess at things and then when proven incorrect, you claim you are just 'fishing'. My advice to you is stop fishing and start listening, reading and learning.
kinniku at 04:51 PM JST - 14th January

I did not say "last" chip. I said a chip.

My mistake. For some reason I remember 'last' when you actually wrote 'lost'. Sorry about that.

And it makes perfect sense. It was not pulling out of Gaza that was the problem. The problem was doing it unilaterally rather than after a negotiation. Then expecting the Gazans to act a certain way without being consulted.

I am sorry. The PA had been administering Gaza since 1994. I do not think it is unrealistic for the Palestinian people to have taken the opportunity to use the pullout to create improvements for their people. BTW, is it just your opinion that there were no consultations between Israel and the PA before the withdrawal. For you seem to be suggesting it was sudden. However, the case is that the PA was consulted and they were quite prepared for the Israeli pullout. The Palestinian leadership dispatched 7,500 police and security forces near Jewish settlements in southern Gaza before the pullout. In addition, around 20,000 Palestinian police and security personnel plan to take part in preventing attacks and violence. In fact, Palestinians in Gaza cheered the fact that the Israelis were pulling out and cheered when the PA had control of the Rafah border crossing.
sabiwabi at 05:13 PM JST - 14th January

The comment by likeitis: "Have you considered what a mass depopulation of Gaza would mean for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, the government of Gaza, and for relations with Egypt?" does indicate that he thought there there was a 'mass depopulation' of Gaza. Notice the words "a" and "would".

He did not state ""Have you considered what the mass depopulation of Gaza meant for ordinary Palestinians in Gaza, the government of Gaza, and for relations with Egypt?"

likeitis, don't waste your time with this. Kinniku has a long history of splitting hairs while pretending to misunderstand simple words like "would", "much", "necessarily".

The thing is, I don't claim jack when I am not sure,

Not quite true. I remember vividly in a very old discussion when you claimed something with great certainty (PCR), and I finally got you to admit that it was "an educated guess" and then finally you admitted something like "I just made it up, everybody does".
sabiwabi at 05:26 PM JST - 14th January

Sorry, but it is Israel that has never given peace a chance. Israel returned the Sinai Pennisula (which, for a small country such as Israel, was a huge piece of land) to Egypt in return for peace.

Oh, how generous of Israel to return stolen land. But honestly, how was this land acquired by Israel in the first place. By honestly, I mean don't simply copy/paste the usual talking points provided by Israel's ministry of foreign affairs.
grafton at 09:15 PM JST - 14th January

sabiwabi at 05:26 PM JST - 14th January “Sorry, but it is Israel that has never given peace a chance. Israel returned the Sinai Pennisula (which, for a small country such as Israel, was a huge piece of land) to Egypt in return for peace.” “Oh, how generous of Israel to return stolen land. But honestly, how was this land acquired by Israel in the first place. By honestly, I mean don't simply copy/paste the usual talking points provided by Israel's ministry of foreign affairs.” Sabiwabi. As is usual in the Arab world Israel was attacked, yet again & yet again defended itself & yet again won & kept the Sinai so as to be able to bargain (as is usual in the Arab world) with Egypt. Israel never had any long tern intension of keeping the Sinai & they never set out to take it.

All this long argument about who did what at what time at which border crossing really is nothing more than meaningless smoke that everybody gets lost in. Before the “elections” in Gasa Hamas was this sweetness & light charitable group that went around being ever so nice to everybody. And this is how they managed to get as many votes as they did & ended up SHARING power with the PA, but then they showed their real colours & shot as many PA people as they could & are still doing so today. Most of us accept that Hamas are a bunch of crazy killers but for some reason many seem to believe that Israel never knew this. The borders were restricted BECAUSE Israel knew what Hamas was & what they would do. You don’t live next door to crazy people without getting to know what they are like & what they are very likely to do.

The object here seems to be to find any way possible to hold Israel responsible no matter what. Some have worked so hard towards this end that they are now sound like Hamas supports, though I know they are not.

Face simple facts, for what ever reason Hamas wanted this confrontation & worked very hard to bring it about. The blood you are all so upset about seeing on your TVs was blood that Hamas knew you would see & be upset by seeing. They callously planned for your gullibility, they knowing sacrificed their own children (& inflated the numbers) to get your attention & they are the people that Israel has to deal with. Yet you all want Israel to sit down at a table & talk terms for peace with these people! Get real, Hamas do not want peace with Israel, they never have wanted & never will want it. Allowing Hamas to “win” now because of international pressure on Israel will see the beginning of the end, not just in Israel but also in all the neighbouring states. The cancer that is radical Islam will spread & your gullibility will have helped feed it. There is such a thing as pure evil & Hamas is it & it needs to be expunged from the world, leave Israel to get on with it, most of the Arab world is.
likeitis at 11:22 PM JST - 14th January
For some reason I remember 'last' when you actually wrote 'lost'. Sorry about that.

Accepted.

Only someone unaware of the handover, and more to the point unaware of even the recent history of Gaza, would have asked a question about mass depopulation from Gaza.

While this is completely true, its nothing I have not already admitted all by myself.

Now, I do not believe that you, nor I, nor anyone else here is an expert. So, can we please get on with debating facts and opinions and get off the idea that I am not an expert, same as you and everybody else? There are a lot of important details, and me, you, or anyone else not knowing the half of it is a given.

You hop about and ask rhetorical questions and attempt to play devil's advocate when a simple Google search would help you so much.

Well, let me ask some things I cannot find via google or any other search, and believe me, I do try:
1. Are Gazans trying to emmigrate to Egypt? Why or why not?
2. If yes to 1, is Egypt allowing any Gazan immigrants? Why or why not?
3. When All Palestine was dismantled by Nasser, was Gaza annexed by Egypt as West Bank was annexed by Jordan? Were Gazans ever Egyptian citizens? Not able to find an answer, I am thinking no.
4. Is Egypt now, or has it ever been, interested in annexing Gaza? Have Gazans ever expressed interest? Why or why not?
5. Does Egypt not express interest in annexing Gaza because of signing agreements concerning a free Palistinian state, or is there some other reason, such as Israeli concerns, or just the idea that Gaza and her people are a total loss? Or do the Palestinians want their state so bad annexation cannot even be discussed?
6. If that last question is true, why have the Palestinians not gotten their act together and declared independence? I know they are prone to infighting, but it seems odd that if they want independence so bad as to endure Israeli rule rather than join Egypt, they would have gotten their act together by now.
Answers to the above may overlap. In fact, they all may be easily answerable in one short paragraph if you are in the know. If you don't know admit it. I sure don't.

Israel continued to hold on to it until 1979, so it was not just six years.

Six day war to Yom Kippur War: Six years Yom Kippur War to Peace treaty agreement to hand over Sinai: Six years

Once the peace treaty is signed, Israeli no longer needs to fret so much. Most likely Egypt will not invade. Why bother when a handover deal has been worked???

In 2006, the Rafah tunnels were being used for smuggling.

Rafah tunnels are not the same as Rafah crossing. Rafah crossing was shut down for 86 percent of one year why? And yes, I have searched for that answer too. What I got was "security concerns". That was it.

BTW, is it just your opinion that there were no consultations between Israel and the PA before the withdrawal.

The decision was unilateral. I read it several times, in Hareetz. But that is not to say Palistinians were not consulted nor had any idea what what happening.

For you seem to be suggesting it was sudden.

No, I was not suggesting it was sudden. I am stating that Israel made a decision on its own to do that, rather than make a deal. So Gazans felt no obligation NOT to rocket Israel. They just looked on it as getting lucky.
likeitis at 11:28 PM JST - 14th January

likeitis, don't waste your time with this. Kinniku has a long history of splitting hairs while pretending to misunderstand simple words like "would", "much", "necessarily".

Thank you.

I remember vividly in a very old discussion when you claimed something with great certainty (PCR), and I finally got you to admit that it was "an educated guess" and then finally you admitted something like "I just made it up, everybody does".

I wish I could remember that. At least I admitted fault, and that is rare enough around here. However, an educated guess IS made up, its just based on some certain knowledge. I do not "just" make things up, and if I said I did, it was most likely only out of frustration.
kinniku at 09:30 AM JST - 15th January

likeitis,

Thank you for your sincerity in your response. I appreciate it. I will say the only reason I brought up this 'expert' thing is because of some comments you wrote to SuperLib and Sailwind in which you seemed to be saying they were not experts. However, now that we are in agreement on this, it would be a pleasure to talk about details.

Are Gazans trying to emmigrate to Egypt? Why or why not?

I think many would love to and would have loved to during Egyptian occupation. However, this has never been an option. Egypt does not allow it.

Egypt allowing any Gazan immigrants? Why or why not?

No. Egypt does not (and did not during the period from 1948 to 1967) want them in their country.

Is Egypt now, or has it ever been, interested in annexing Gaza?

No, the Egyptians left the Gazans to rot from 1948 to 1967 and did not let them leave the territory. Interestingly, Israel did when it took the territory in 1967.

With regard to Sinai, it was a good deal all around for both Israel and Egypt. Sadly, it didn't work out well for Sadat and things probably would have been a lot different had he not been assassinated. However, Israel was not having terribly difficult time controlling the area during the time it occupied it. They certainly had a difficult time getting their settlers out of the territory before they handed it back to Egypt though.

Rafah tunnels are not the same as Rafah crossing. Rafah crossing was shut down for 86 percent of one year why?

Short answer: Israel and Egypt were punishing the PA for its lack of ability in securing the border and preventing smuggling and violence.

So Gazans felt no obligation NOT to rocket Israel. They just looked on it as getting lucky.

Maybe this is true. I am not a member of Hamas, so I do not know for sure how they looked on it. However, this was finally a chance for the PA to show how they could take care of their people. In addition, there were specifics negotiations and agreements with regard to turning over border control to the PA and there were obligations for maintaining peace and security.

Obviously, I am only covering a small amount of the situation as time and space allow. Also, obviously, I hope as you do that the situation will improve for Gazans and Palestinians in general.
kinniku at 10:58 AM JST - 15th January

sabiwabi,

Briefly...first, you seem to continue to have reading difficulties as I did not write the comment to which you attributed to me. This is why likeitis responded to it, not me. You really should pay more attention.

Second, the discussion and the subject had nothing to do with depopulation as likeitis and I have come to an agreement about, so your attempt at word-games brings nothing of value to the discussion.

Third, since you brought it up...I made an educated guess about DNA testing based on previous tests and, as it turns out, my educated guess was correct. In addition, you did not 'get me to admit' I made an educated guess, I freely told you that in my next post to you. Also, I never wrote anything like "I just made it up, everybody does". So, it seems you are continuing your tradition of falsehood posting a la claiming Al Jazeera is owned by Fox News as you did in the past.

Lastly and most importantly, your react to discussion about Sinai is more telling that you might like about your attitudes towards peace between Palestinians and Israelis and in terms of Middle Eastern peace in general. Grafton spoke quite well to the specifics, I would just like to add that you refuse to see any positive steps as positive steps and in fact you even refuse to agree that a Palestinian state made up the territories occupied in 1967 would solve the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. The only solution you ever see as a good one is a solution that would result in the ending of Israel's existence. At least you have something in common with Hamas, huh?
sabiwabi at 06:14 PM JST - 15th January

All this long argument about who did what at what time at which border crossing really is nothing more than meaningless smoke that everybody gets lost in.

That is indeed what a thief would like people to believe. "Hey, I lived so long in your grandparents' house, and you have gotten used to sleeping on the sidewalks, so lets not get bogged down in this meaningless argument, lets just get along and be friends. But I keep your grandparents house, and you stay on the sidewalk."

Face simple facts, for what ever reason Israel wanted this confrontation & worked very hard to bring it about, consulting with the Bush administration and probably also Blair the "peace envoy".