Israeli military completes Gaza pullout

Thursday 22nd January, 06:22 AM JST

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Madverts at 11:46 PM JST - 22nd January

"They knew that they had total support to kill at will from george bush."

But z, they'll end up being provoked by the Hamas again and doing it with clandestine support from President Obama...

...what will your position be then?
adaydream at 11:58 PM JST - 22nd January

You are so sure Hamas will do something. And I do understand what you are saying.

Madverts, what about the gangs or the Fatah militants, not Hamas, that are pissed and they go and purchase some rockets. Out of total hatred for the Iraelis who are intent to murder all Gazans, they fire rockets.

Immediately Hamas is blamed. Then Israel comes over with helicopters and fire numerous missiles that kill innocent civilians.

There's more to it then just Hamas wants to kill Israelis. That's why I have said consistantly that we have to have a world community resolution for the Middle East, especially to quell violence to or from Israel. < :-)
Madverts at 12:18 AM JST - 23rd January

Z,

Hamas killed everyone from Fatah in the Gaza power struggle.
adaydream at 04:15 AM JST - 23rd January

Madverts, do better than your last post. They're long from dead. < :-)

CFR didn't say they were dead. http://www.cfr.org/publication/13391/

Oct 2008 they weren't dead. http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB549897.htm

And here's a time during the 6 month ceasefire that Hamas was commited to the cease fire while Fatah fired rockets into Egypt. http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-06/26/content_8445026.htm
Zurg at 07:25 AM JST - 23rd January

The Palestinians along with the HAMAS should give up the 'GAZA'. They ALL should leave! The war will never be finished until they leave. This way there is no suspicion, no anger, and no depletion of populations. They can go to Syria or Iran. Be done with it!
kinniku at 08:15 AM JST - 23rd January

Every year since 1989, the UN General Assembly has voted on resolutions regarding the peaceful settlement of the Palestinian question

The simple reason is that there are still some people who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state, as you have often suggested...For some reason, the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.
sabiwabi at 11:08 AM JST - 23rd January

The simple reason is that there are still some people who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state, as you have often suggested...For some reason, the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.

You seem to agree then that it is Israel that cannot make peace, because they always feel that someone will want to wipe them out. They feel that they MUST be the strongest ones there, and that all their neighbours MUST be weaker and afraid of Israel. This is very consistent with the point Finkelstein was making. That everyone must be afraid of Israel so that Israel can boss everyone around. Whenever someone makes a "Peace Offensive", agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, Israel gets scared and they get vicious. This happened in the 1980's with the PLO and its happening again now with Hamas.

As I have been saying for so long, **it is clearly Israel who cannot make peace!**
likeitis at 11:17 AM JST - 23rd January

The Palestinians along with the HAMAS should give up the 'GAZA'. They ALL should leave! The war will never be finished until they leave. This way there is no suspicion, no anger, and no depletion of populations. They can go to Syria or Iran. Be done with it!

But it still leaves Israel surrounded by hostiles. I know! How about Israelites leave! That would really make everything neat and clean! Those of German descent can go to Germany. Those of American descent can go to America! And so on... At least it is actually possible to trace quite a few Israelis back to somewhere else. Nobody can trace a Palestinian to anywhere but the areas IN and around Israel.
kinniku at 01:00 PM JST - 23rd January

You seem to agree then that it is Israel that cannot make peace, because they always feel that someone will want to wipe them out.

I am not quite sure how you think it seem that I would agree with this since I have consistently said both Israel and Palestine need to agree to live side-by-side in peace. You wouldn't happen to be trying to twist my words, would you?

For your benefit, I will paraphrase what I wrote:

The simple reason is that there are still some people (for example: you) who believe that a "peaceful" settlement of the Palestinian question is to destroy Israel and replace it all with a Palestinian state. For some reason (I was being sarcastic here), the Israelis don't seem to like that idea.

You have suggested a number of times that Israel should cease to exist. That is what Hamas suggests and what many demanding 'peace' in the Middle East suggest. It is unrealistic to think Israel would agree to stop existing...

This is very consistent with the point Finkelstein was making. That everyone must be afraid of Israel so that Israel can boss everyone around.

Maybe I am the only one, but I have no idea who "Finkelstein" is, but Israel is hardly "bossing everyone in the Middle East around". They certainly are attempting to boss Hamas around.

By the way, could you point me in the direction of "someone making a "Peace Offensive" (not a truce, mind you), agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, and then Israel getting scared and getting vicious? I do know the Palestinians got scared, specifically Arafat, in 2000 and walked away from the table, never to return...then they got Sharon, which was horrible for all concerned...

This happened in the 1980's with the PLO and its happening again now with Hamas.

What happened specifically with the PLO? They agreed to recognize Israel and make peace in the 1980's?

As I have been saying for so long, **it is clearly Israel who cannot make peace!

As I and others have been saying, both sides bear a burden in the history. However, Hamas now bears a greater burden for only agreeing that they want to destory Israel...
sabiwabi at 07:30 PM JST - 23rd January

Maybe I am the only one, but I have no idea who "Finkelstein" is,

You are probably the only one who doesn’t know [Norman] Finkelstein. I guess the Israeli foreign affairs’ information package that was sent to you did not include his stuff, and I understand why. He has a reputation of being an obsessive fact-checker. Look him up!

By the way, could you point me in the direction of "someone making a "Peace Offensive" (not a truce, mind you), agreeing to real peace with the 1967 borders, and then Israel getting scared and getting vicious?

Peace Offensive #1: In the mid-1970s the PLO began supporting a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border. The PLO, headquartered in Lebanon, was strictly adhering to a 1981 truce with Israel. In August 1981 Saudi Arabia unveiled, and the Arab League approved, a peace plan based on the two-state settlement. Arafat was contemplating a historic compromise.

Israeli visciousness #1: Fearing diplomatic pressures, Israel maneuvered to sabotage the two-state settlement and stepping up preparations to destroy the PLO. Israel conducted punitive military raids deliberately out of proportion against Palestinian and Lebanese civilians in order to weaken PLO moderates, strengthen the hand of Arafat's radical rivals, and guarantee the PLO's inflexibility.

To fend off Arafat's "peace offensive" Israel embarked on military action in June 1982. The Israeli invasion had been preceded by more than a year of effective ceasefire with the PLO, but after murderous Israeli provocations, the last of which left as many as 200 civilians dead (including 60 occupants of a Palestinian children's hospital), the PLO finally retaliated, causing a single Israeli casualty. Israel used the PLO's resumption of attacks as the pretext for its invasion.

Now does this sound familiar or what!!!!!! The exact same MO with Hamas. Hamas making a peace offensive and the Israelis react in the exact same way! Bloody murderers, pretending to want peace but that is the last thing they want.
kinniku at 11:33 PM JST - 23rd January

I am assuming (correctly I hope) that since sabiwabi's post has been up and not removed for 4 hours that I am free to respond without my post being removed.

You are probably the only one who doesn’t know [Norman] Finkelstein.

You did not use his first name and most of the posts (I came in in the middle so I don't know if it was one or many) containing the references you say you attempted to link were not there. He is not a rock star and he has a first name. I assumed you were referring to some other poster...

While I have not read everything Mr. Finkelstein writes, there are some things about which he makes some good points. However, there are also some points which he is mistaken. Now on to you...

In the mid-1970s the PLO began supporting a two-state settlement on the June 1967 border.

Not quite true...In 1974, the PLO called for their own independent state in the "Palestinian Mandate". In addition, Fatah's leaders created a 10 point plan which called for the establishment of a national authority over any piece of liberated Palestinian land, and to actively pursue the establishment of a secular democratic binational (note: not two separate states)state in Israel/Palestine under which all citizens will enjoy equal status and rights regardless of race, sex, or religion. It actually sounds pretty good until you also note that the stated ultimate goal was the "liberation" of all Palestinian territory. In fact, this refrain was to be repeat by Arafat himself an interview as late as in 1988 when he stated the final goal was to get all of Palestine back (paraphrased as I don't have the text in front of me)

To fend off Arafat's "peace offensive" Israel embarked on military action in June 1982. The Israeli invasion had been preceded by more than a year of effective ceasefire with the PLO

Again, not quite true (this is connected to the previous paragraph as well so I didn't bother to quote that)...

Arafat felt the ceasefire only pertained to PLO attacks originating in Lebanon and as a result attacks from Jordan and the West Bank continued completely unabated. If and when Israel retaliated, it would be seen as technically breaking the ceasefire. However, as we can see the PLO did feel it had such rules against attacks from the West Bank and Jordan...So, yes there certainly are similarities with the present situation with Hamas. The PLO was using a loophole to break the ceasefire and Hamas uses real holes (tunnels) to break their ceasefires...In addition Hamas also states that their final goal is to take back all of Palestine. Now, I know you agree with this sentiment. However, it is not a 'two state solution' as you represent it.
JackBerstein at 12:12 AM JST - 26th January

Not quite true

= does not agree with what Israel wants you to believe.

In addition Hamas also states that their final goal is to take back all of Palestine

Try Googling "greater Israel" and you'll see Israel's final goal. The media doesn't mention this, but its clear what their goal has been.

I am assuming (correctly I hope) that since sabiwabi's post has been up and not removed for 4 hours

Why are you surprised that his post was not removed? I don't know if what he says is true, but he offers some interesting points not heard on the news. And Finklestein is highly respected, why don't we see him on the news instead of the usual clueless "experts". If what he says is true, it would explain a lot.
kinniku at 08:46 AM JST - 26th January

'Jack',

'Not quite true' means not quite true. If you feel I am mistaken, how about directly addressing what I wrote? You don't seem to be strong on informative posting. What I wrote represents the truth.

Your suggesting of Googling so that I can find opinion sites that match what you think people should think are of less value that talking about the facts.

Lastly, I was just making sure I could post. I was not saying what sabiwabi wrote should be removed...
sabiwabi at 09:53 AM JST - 26th January

'Not quite true' means not quite true....What I wrote represents the truth.

Jack, one thing you should realize is that everything kinniku writes are facts and truths. He knows EVERYTHING about Israel-related conflicts, but somehow did not know who Finkelstein was....

I guess he does get his information from only one side.
kinniku at 10:27 AM JST - 26th January

sabiwabi,

Are there some questions about what I wrote that you have? I gave you specific answers and responses. It seems you don't have any real response, except for what you have just written above. This can only lead to the logical conclusion that you have no counter-argument.

I make an attempt to see both sides of the discussion and I make an attempt to make my opinions clear. If you feel something is unclear or incorrect, you should specifically speak to that...I would be happy to clarify what I wrote.