Israeli forces slice deeper into Gaza

Monday 05th January, 12:40 PM JST

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SuperLib at 08:23 AM JST - 6th January

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire and international monitors to see if both sides are complying with the cease fire.

Does anyone have a problem with that?
Molenir at 08:50 AM JST - 6th January

I don't have a problem with it. I think its a perfectly reasonable position. Hamas wouldn't be able to fire off any more rockets, murdering and terrorizing Israel, the people of Gaza would have peace, the borders would open, and they might be able to actually get jobs and work, improving their lives. Of course they will still blame Israel, still be taught that the best thing they can do is to murder a Jew. But it would be a start at least.
YangYong at 09:27 AM JST - 6th January

World opinion and the JT survey shows that those who think Israel is going about this in the wrong way are by far in the majority; all you Israel does no wrong are getting wet and as that which you pass blows back in your face. Enjoy.
kinniku at 11:37 AM JST - 6th January

YangYong,

The thing is...I haven't seen anyone here on this thread write anything at all like "Israel does no wrong". In fact, I don't believe I have seen anyone on this thread write that the state of Palestine does not have a right to exist or even that Hamas does not have a right to lead the Palestinians. However, I certainly have seen quite a number of posts hinting or outright suggesting Israel does not have a right to exist...

In my case, I believe in the two States living peacefully (a real peace NOT a temporary truce) and I have believed that both sides should be forced into such a solution. However, Hamas has taken the position of temporary (sometimes suggesting ten years, but 'temporary' nonetheless) truces. My problem with Hamas is their lack of desire to even negotiate with Israel. This is the same tack Arafat took for many years...It is also the same tack the 'conservative' parties in Israel often take...

Both sides need to realize the other side is not going anywhere and need to realize they are truly only better off under peace...

You wrote that there were other ways that Israel could have solve the rocket/Hamas problem. The problem is when they carry out assassinations or other such operations, they are blamed any way. (Witness complaints about stopping Hamas tunneling above) So, it is possible the Israeli government figured they would just stop Hamas more completely.

You wrote that you were shocked that I was satisfied (Sorry, I don't remember your actual words and I can't be bother to save this to check) with some civilian deaths. I never said I was. I am saddened by even one death on either side...That is why both sides need to make peace...I am one of the few on JT who has consistently defended both sides of this discussion. Sad, when I have mentioned even the slightest sympathy for either side, I get attacked by the other side...I think that is the biggest problem. The inability to see the other side...

The Palestinians deserve a nation and they deserve it now. Hamas' actions do not get them this nation now. That is a disservice to their people...The Palestinians have much more to lose in this. I wish Hamas would see this...
sabiwabi at 11:56 AM JST - 6th January

kinniku

the vessel mentioned above was entering Israeli water without permission and it is alleged the boat did not respond to radio contact from the Israelis...

And you continue to believe everything Israel says. Anyway, how many times have you stated that Israel left Gaza and handed control of the border to the Palestinian Authority? So now its Israeli water! Why isn't it Gazan or Palestinian water?

This should have been the beginning of better days for the Palestinians of Gaza. Instead we have Hamas still hoping to 'destroy' Israel.

No, Hamas just wants its people to get food, medicine, fuel, electricity, freedom … Since you seem to trust CNN, I’ve heard CNN’s Christiane Amanpour state numerous times that Israel has been strangling Gaza for the past 3 years ever since they elected Hamas. Israel is bullying Palestinians to vote for who Israel wants. This has nothing to do with Israel protecting its people.
kinniku at 01:45 PM JST - 6th January

sabiwabi,

And you continue to believe everything Israel says.

Ummm...I wrote it is alleged boat did not respond. How is that 'believing everything Israel says? In addition, the boat was attempting to enter Israeli controlled waters. Nobody disputes this, except maybe you.

Anyway, how many times have you stated that Israel left Gaza and handed control of the border to the Palestinian Authority? So now its Israeli water! Why isn't it Gazan or Palestinian water?

Israel did leave Gaza and did hand control of the border over to the Palestinian Authority. I never wrote they handed over control of the sea or air. Negotiations were in the works for sea and air control. As far as why it isn't Gazan or Palestinian water, hopefully it will be someday. However, I did not write anything incorrect. Nice try though...not.

No, Hamas just wants its people to get food, medicine, fuel, electricity, freedom …

If that is all they wanted, I would be wearing a Hamas T-shirt 24 hours a day...however, the fact remains that Hamas did use the cease fire to improve their rocket technology.

Since you seem to trust CNN, I’ve heard CNN’s Christiane Amanpour state numerous times that Israel has been strangling Gaza for the past 3 years ever since they elected Hamas.

Yes, Israel and much of the world has been punishing the Palestinians for their choice of Hamas...I do not agree with a complete blockade personally, especially regarding food and medical supplies. However, I do agree with those who are against Hamas. I do not think they have had the future of the Palestinian people as their primary goals. I do think countries have a right to boycott other countries they disagree with. Just as other countries have a right to support those they agree with.

This particular conflict (the one going on right now in Gaza) could have been prevented if both sides were willing to continue to abide by the ceasefire and were willing to start really talking to each other. Unfortunately, there will always be people like yourself who would be against this...
Molenir at 02:21 PM JST - 6th January

Yeah, when the people of Gaza, chose to support a terrorist group, whose primary goal and aim is the destruction of Israel, and the murdering of Jews, its hard to be sympathetic. Particularly when this same group is doing everything it can to smuggle in weapons to help them murder more people. They don't particularly care about the Palestian people. Oh, they may talk a good game, but if they truly cared, they would sit down and negotiate a real peace.
YangYong at 02:50 PM JST - 6th January

Muscles: Obviously you haven''t been reading all the posts, here on JT, or listening to wider opinions beyond the cyber borders of this webpage... the American Govt's for instance? That's quite a big one. The 'Israel does no wrong' crowd is apparent. and as for your response, why respond to a post not aimed at you? Me thinks you doth protest too much.
kinniku at 03:33 PM JST - 6th January

YangYong,

You are reading way too much into what I wrote to you. I just wrote that I haven't seen anyone write anything like "Israel does no wrong" on this thread...It is possible to think Israel does do some things wrong and still be against Hamas. As far as the US Govt's reaction to the Israel/Palestinian situation, basically it has been pretty much on hold for the last eight years. No real pressure on either side...Senior Bush actually did a much better job at getting Shamir and Arafat to actually talk to each other seriously.

As to me responding to your post...first, I was not "protesting"...just responding...quite common on JT...Again, please try not to overread what people write...

Lastly, I thought I tried to correspond in a polite manner. I am not sure why you would not welcome my comments. I certainly am interested in yours.
Molenir at 09:48 PM JST - 6th January

YangYong, you haven't really been reading the responses have you. Otherwise you wouldn't use the blanket term 'Israel does no wrong' crowd, to describe people who support Israel in their latest conflict. Its hard to see how wrong they are in defending their civilians from the unrelenting attacks on their people. Maybe its because I imagine myself in their position, if I was under constant attack from groups whose sole purpose in life was to murder me and my family, I imagine how I'd respond. You? Apparently you're ok with it.
adaydream at 04:35 AM JST - 7th January

SuperLib -

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire and international monitors to see if both sides are complying with the cease fire. Does anyone have a problem with that?

At face value I have no problem with this.

But once you get into it....

If another country attacks your country. You have that country's army, (here Hamas) who is supposed to defend the country. But you also have insurgents, new spin off groups and radicals who take up arms. No different then what happened in Iraq. The harder that the US tried, the more these groups and insurgents came out. The more they tried, the more that IEDs and gerrilla tactics came out. Even if Iraq had wanted to control these groups, they couldn't.

There may be rockets coming from Hamas, but you got these start-up groups attempting to defend their country against invaders. And they'll do it till they can't defend any longer.

So this part of your post

Israel has agreed to stop the campaign in return for stopping rocket fire

is harder than you want to think.

Isreal knows this. They rely on this. As long as a single rocket is fired, Isreal is going to continue to kill Palestinians. < :-)
likeitis at 04:53 PM JST - 7th January

adaydream, very nice explanation above.
Molenir at 01:25 AM JST - 8th January

Isreal knows this. They rely on this. As long as a single rocket is fired, Isreal is going to continue to kill Palestinians.

Yep, Hamas knows this as well. They also rely on it. They want their people killed. Thats why they hide in schools, in mosques etc. Because if Israel destroys a Mosque, or a school, then everyone hates them. It doesn't matter that Hamas had their forces there, that they were firing mortars from the school, and that they deliberately didn't evacuate the school. No, what matters is that Israel fought back and that their people were killed, just as they had planned.
adaydream at 05:41 AM JST - 8th January

Molenir

But the majority were from outside of Iraq.

Prove your post.

The insurgents were fathers who lost their families, sons who lost families, doctors who lost their way of doing business when the US blew up everything, Baath party members who used to be loyal Iraqi civil servants kicked out and just plain patriots who never hated Americans before, but they did after we pre-emptively attacked them.

But I'd love to see your link. Don't send me something from this administration, they proved they lie. < :-)
Molenir at 06:44 AM JST - 8th January

Do I need to? Do your own research. Look it up for yourself. You can find tons of articles from all sorts of news sources talking about foreign fighters coming into Iraq. If you speak Arabic you could read some of the foreign language sites that try to recruit people as well.