Jerusalem mayor's Al-Aqsa visit sparks anger

The site is important to both religions and should be able to be visited by both religions. However, it is pretty obvious that Nir Barkat is trying to stir a hornets' nest just as Sharon did. I hope the Palestinians do not give Barkat the satisfaction and react as they did in 2000.

slumdog:

" The site is important to both religions and should be able to be visited by both religions. "

Not as far as the muslim authorities are concerned. Any time Jews go anywhere near there, you get riots.

Now for reference, just imagine Jews claiming to top of wholy islamic site in a Arab country, for themselves, build a synagogue there, and riot every time an Arab politician visits. Plausible picture in your mind?

Not as far as the muslim authorities are concerned. Any time Jews go anywhere near there, you get riots.

Well, as you can probably guess, I was just giving my personal opinion above. However, you should be aware that it is not only Muslim authorities that do not want Jews to go up to the Temple Mount. It is also Jewish authorities as well and has been that way since at least 1921.

For your information:

Chief rabbis David Lau and Yitzhak Yosef have signed a declaration reiterating the Chief Rabbinate’s opposition to Jews visiting the Temple Mount.

The Chief Rabbinate has – since its inception under Rabbi Avraham Yitzhak Hacohen Kook in 1921 – banned Jews from visiting the site out of a concern they may inadvertently step into an area which, in Jewish law, it is forbidden to enter unless one is ritually pure. It is not possible to perform the purification ceremony today for various halachic reasons.

http://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/Jewish-News/Chief-Rabbis-reimpose-ban-on-Jews-visiting-Temple-Mount-333741

Now for reference, just imagine Jews claiming to top of wholy islamic site in a Arab country, for themselves, build a synagogue there, and riot every time an Arab politician visits. Plausible picture in your mind?

First, a small but growing percentage of devout Jews will point out the extent of the land as promised to Abraham -- which many of those interpret as "Israel" -- as much vaster than what belongs to the current state. It encompasses what are Arab countries and, many fully expect these lands to eventually be claimed -- which will lead to exactly the picture you have described. There is a growing tide of "millennialist" sentiment that you appear to be oblivious to.

Second, because of over a thousand years of Arab and other foreign domination -- which the Jews attribute to the will of their God sending them into forced exile as punishment -- there is no "wholly Jewish" site in Palestine. Most if not all of the major sites are claimed by the three major religions of the area. So once again, you have set up a straw horse with a completely bogus comparison.

Third, one needs an understanding of the Jewish Torah to understand what it is that actually makes a site "set apart" in their faith.

many fully expect these lands to eventually be claimed

'Many'? How many is 'many' exactly? 'Claimed'? 'Claimed' by whom exactly? Speaking of straw horses. The outlying borders of the land Israel controls have not increased for many, many years. Please do not add needless fuel to an already needlessly burning fire.

This issue is the Temple Mount and Mayor Barkat's doing an impression of Sharon. It is needless. If the Palestinians react as they did in 2000, that would be needless as well. The Palestinians can condemn the action if they choose to, but they should call for calm and avoid the violence that such events in the past have led to.

Many'? How many is 'many' exactly? 'Claimed'? 'Claimed' by whom exactly?

How many Jewish people would claim the Torah (and the prophets) form the foundation of their very identity? (I would guess very many.) You might have also pointed out how, the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem begged the United Nations after WWII not to allow immigration to Palestine of European Jews who did not observe Torah.

There is now a much greater trend towards strict adherence to Torah, and nowhere does it show up more strongly than in the settler movement -- the ones who keep pushing the envelope, believing they have a divine commission to claim all lands that were promised to Abraham. A few decades is as nothing in their frame of reference.

Please do not add needless fuel to an already needlessly burning fire.

The fuel and sparks have been there for thousands of years. Sorry to be the one to point out the obvious to you.

This issue is the Temple Mount and Mayor Barkat's doing an impression of Sharon. It is needless.

If you understood anything you'd know that such a step is increasingly necessary. You may as well assume the position of King Canute in holding back the tides.

yabits,

Are you familiar with the term "weasel words"? When you make a claim such as:

many fully expect these lands to eventually be claimed

You actually say very little. Many actually do not expect any such thing. Unless you can accurately describe the amount of people that expect such a thing to happen and under what conditions they expect it to happen, you fall under the definition of "weasel words".

The fuel and sparks have been there for thousands of years

Yes, but your as of yet completely unsubstanciated claim that 'many' want to take over more of the Middle East than Israel currently controls adds more fuel and sparks and at the same time adds little in the way of actual factual evidence.

If you understood anything you'd know that such a step is increasingly necessary.

? Necessary for whom? Why? What exactly are you talking about? Again, hinting at things does not equal with dealing in actual facts. By the way, when you are someone who claimed that their knowledge of the Middle East situation came solely from reading (three?) books, I would hardly throw around language such as "If you understood anything...".

Unless you can accurately describe the amount of people that expect such a thing to happen and under what conditions they expect it to happen, you fall under the definition of "weasel words".

I can accurately describe a movement that started with a relative handful of people armed with a powerful myth-identity and the willingness to employ deceit and violence to carry out their plans. Go back to Munich between the years of 1900 and 1919. (Ironically, it's when and where Zionism got its start too.)

Necessary for whom? Why? What exactly are you talking about? Again, hinting at things does not equal with dealing in actual facts.

The fact is the mayor made the provocative move to assert the mosque area was essentially under Jewish control. You may not want to believe this, but there are very powerful forces within Israel who know that the Al-Aqsa mosque will have to be eradicated from that spot. Creating the casus belli will require a series of provocations leading to its logical conclusion.

Visits by religious nationalist Israelis have triggered clashes between stone-throwing youths and police, as well as complaints from Jordan which oversees Muslim heritage sites in Jerusalem.

Another point of provocation. Expect these visits to increase, with greater consequence.

Israel pledged to build more than 1,000 new settler homes in east Jerusalem on Monday, infuriating Palestinians who warned it could trigger an “explosion” of violence.

Yet another clearly thought-out and purposeful provocation.

By the way, when you are someone who claimed that their knowledge of the Middle East situation came solely from reading (three?) books

LOL. Knowledge of where Germany was headed from 1919 to the 1930s would have taken the reading of just one book.

@yabits

You're always on the ball.

Well said.

lucabrasi,

I expect better of you. Sorry to disagree, but yabits actually said a lot of not much in all that he wrote. If you will note, I have never ever suggested there were not any extremists on the Israeli side. In fact, I firmly and clearly criticized Mayor Barkat's actions on the Temple Mount. However, to extend this and suggest that this represents the Israeli government or Israelis in general is inaccurate to the highest degree. When questioned specifically, yabits cannot answer specifically. This says a lot to me.

I have no interest in debating someone who misrepresents a whole nation and its people. Your final coment above is one such misrepresentation as there is no Israeli 'Mein Kampf' that you erroneously suggest showing 'where Israel is headed. .So, yabits, you may go on with your talk of conspiracies that actually never take place, never have taken place and never will take place. This mayor is not anymore representative of Israel or Israelis as Shintaro Ishihara is of Japan or Japanese people. I will see the reality that both sides have good and bad in them and that it is the good on the Israeli side and the good on the Palestinian side that most prevail.

However, to extend this and suggest that this represents the Israeli government or Israelis in general is inaccurate to the highest degree.

Likewise, to suggest in the 1920s that the national socialists represented the Weimar government or Germans in general would have been inaccurate to an equal degree. But you just don't understand. In your foolishness, you would accuse anyone reporting on the growing influence and power of the fringe right of "misrepresenting" the majority of the population. The vast majority of the population are wishy-washy and will ultimately line up behind what they believe is best for the Reich, er, Israel. The Jews have been waiting for such a leader for a long, long time.

Your final coment above is one such misrepresentation as there is no Israeli 'Mein Kampf' that you erroneously suggest showing 'where Israel is headed.

There is such a book, and like the other one, it was written in prison. The book is They Must Go by Rabbi Meir Kahane. But there is a tremendous difference: Hitler's book could not claim to be based upon the directives of religious scripture. But the key is national identity, and when we hear a Netanyahu talking with great hubris about the Jews' "supreme interests" while denying any such legitimate interests of the people the Jews have brutalized and displaced -- who had lived in Palestine for thousands of years -- the writing is on the wall.

You sit here in open mystification, declaring your ignorance as to why this Jerusalem mayor acts in such a provocative way. It is completely beyond you.

For well over 30 years, in the interest of studying scripture, I have maintained an academic association with groups considered ultra-orthodox and somewhat extremist in their views. (And witnessed as those views became more mainstream; just as a few decades ago it would have been unthinkable for a Jerusalem mayor to act the way this one has.) This includes the so-called "Israel-identity" groups in the West who are tied to right-wing Christian groups, one of whom I have met with on a weekly basis for a number of years now. Because of that, I have been able to sense a very strong and growing trend -- something I believe it would be extremely foolish to disregard. (As foolish as would be disregarding the national socialists and their message in the 1920s.)

Here's a website that is all too typical of what I am talking about: http://www.britam.org/Expulsion.html

We've had people like Juan Cole, Gideon Levy, Simha Flapan, and others providing the dots for decades now. More recently, a man by the name of Miko Peled -- a former IDF officer whose father was an extremely well-known IDF general during the 7-Day War, and whose grandfather was a signer of Israel's Declaration of Independence -- declaring Israel to be a racist, apartheid state. Peled is extremely rational, and is by no means any kind of radical. He is doing a tremendous service helping Americans understand the Zionist state's real game plan.

So, yabits, you may go on with your talk of conspiracies that actually never take place, never have taken place and never will take place...I will see the reality that both sides have good and bad in them and that it is the good on the Israeli side and the good on the Palestinian side that most prevail.

Let those who have ears, let them hear. Just because King Canute declares that something must "prevail" will not make it so. Not in that region, with those people, with those beliefs -- including how people interpret what they consider "prophesy" as a key foundation of their identity.

But you just don't understand. In your foolishness, you would accuse anyone reporting on the growing influence and power of the fringe right of "misrepresenting" the majority of the population.

Foolishness? Please. I have no problem with people reporting about fringe groups, but you purposefully misrepresented them as more than fringe groups. In fact, you do not even specifically identify these groups you claim you are reporting about. Again, in my first post clearly and specifically criticized the mayor of Jerusalem.

The vast majority of the population are wishy-washy and will ultimately line up

Sorry, but you very clearly have no idea what you are talking about with regard to Israelis. Wishy-washy? Lining up and doing what they are told merely because they are told to? Umm...no. Check out the protests almost every day in Israel about any number of things, including the government and government actions.

The book is They Must Go by Rabbi Meir Kahane. But there is a tremendous difference

Yes, there is a tremedous difference and since you seem totally unaware of it, I will do you the honor of passing it along to you. Hitler's book was and still is a best seller (in many Arab countries, as well). Kahane's book was never such and is still not such. Hitler rose to be leader of Germany. Kahane was always considered a fringe nut by most people both inside and outside of Israel and this is even more true now.

It is completely beyond you.

? How do you get that? I know why he went there and it matters very little in the scheme of things just as it meant very little when Sharon did it. Nothing on the Israeli side came of it when Sharon went there, just as nothing will this time, as well. Had the Palestinians not reacted violently the last time, it would have blown over as this too will blow over. The biggest reason why both Barkat and Sharon went there was to stir up the hornets nest and make trouble. Then they have an excuse to 'control the Palestinians' and show them to be terrorists. I hope the Palestinians do not fall into this trap again.

He is doing a tremendous service helping Americans understand the Zionist state's real game plan.

Meh. Israel's real game plan is survival. There is no secret plan you attempt to allude to.

You might have also pointed out how, the Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem begged the United Nations after WWII not to allow immigration to Palestine of European Jews who did not observe Torah.

Why would I want to or care to point it out? Why would I care? I would care as much if the Mullahs of Iran declared a ban on homosexuals? No, I would not. You place too much importance on what religious people you agree with would say. Israelis today have a right to live in their country of Israel regardless of whether they observe the Torah or not, regardless of whether they are Jewish or not. That is the law in Israel. That is what I believe.

Please. I have no problem with people reporting about fringe groups, but you purposefully misrepresented them as more than fringe groups

These "fringe" groups are very much in the vanguard of the settler movement. Watch how they operate --as recorded in documentaries such as Five Broken Cameras -- protected by Israel's defense forces, while most Israelis remain comfortably numb and oblivious by intent and design. The tip of a spear is a very tiny percentage of the whole spear.

Again, in my first post clearly and specifically criticized the mayor of Jerusalem.

If you actually believe that your criticism or that of others like you is going to make a difference, you are seriously deluding yourself. Go back to Sharon's visit -- which should have dissuaded this one because it set off the second intifada. The period prior to Sharon's visit was marked by a period of substantial calm and growing cooperation between Jews and Arabs of Palestine. Someone had to throw a wrench into that.

Hitler's book was and still is a best seller ...

We are talking about timing. When it was published, Hitler's book was dismissed as fringe lunacy -- exactly the way Kahane's book has been. But not by the tip of the spear. Apologists and those who play down what these groups represent are simply the dead weight in the back of the shaft.

How do you get that? I know why he went there and it matters very little in the scheme of things just as it meant very little when Sharon did it.

Meant very little? LOL! As mentioned above -- it was the match that lit the fuse for the Second Intifada.

Then they have an excuse to 'control the Palestinians' and show them to be terrorists. I hope the Palestinians do not fall into this trap again.

Ah, so you are now admitting there are people in strategic positions within Israel who are out pushing buttons, "creating excuses" and "setting traps." There may be hope for you yet. Why are the Jewish people of Israel allowing this to happen?

Sorry, but your hopes and beliefs aren't going to cut it. Not against the radical plans being concocted by these ultra-right, identity groups who think they are on a divine mission. You have no earthly idea of the currents your hopes and beliefs are up against.

These "fringe" groups are very much in the vanguard of the settler movement.

The settlement will disappear when peace is reached between Israel and Palestine. I know you are against this and are against the existence of Israel. But, they will disappear just as the settlements in Gaza and Sinai disappeared.

If you actually believe that your criticism or that of others like you is going to make a difference, you are seriously deluding yourself.

Would you please consider not being so rude? Is that too much to ask? I have a right to my opinion and to my criticisms. Do you think your critcisms are going to make more of a difference than mine? Please consider unmounting from that high horse upon which you seem to sit. I disagree with Barkat and I will say so. I disagree with continued building of settlements and I will say so. I believe Israel has a right to exist and I will say so.

Someone had to throw a wrench into that.

Yes, Sharon was wrong as Barkat is now. However, does that excuse the violence that followed on the part of the Palestinians in the second intifada? How so? Sharon did not injure anyone by walking up on the Mount. As a human being, he had a right to walk up there if he so chose. The Palestinians could have chosen to ignore the obvious wrench and gone on with their lives. They could have kept talking to Ehud Barak instead of giving Sharon what he wanted, which was violence on which to win the PM election. Yes, Sharon was wrong, but that does not excuse the reaction on the part of the Palestinian side any more than the violent riots in the Muslim world in reaction to the Dutch cartoons should be excused.

the way Kahane's book has been

Kahane wrote that book more than two decades ago and was shot and killed more than two decades ago. There is nothing now going on that has anything to do with that book. There is no 'timing'.

it was the match that lit the fuse for the Second Intifada.

There was no excuse for the Second Intifada. There was no reason for the violence. None. Sharon's walk should have been peacefully protested. The Second Intifada solved nothing.

Ah, so you are now admitting there are people in strategic positions within Israel who are out pushing buttons, "creating excuses" and "setting traps." There may be hope for you yet. Why are the Jewish people of Israel allowing this to happen?

There are extremists everywhere. In the end, all Barkat did was take a walk on a piece of land that any human has a right to walk on. Do I think he should have done it? No. But, saying that Barkat is the reason Israel should not exist is like saying that cop that shot the unarmed black kid in the street in the US and the police around that cop that protected him are the reason the US should not exist. It does not add up or make sense.

You have no earthly idea of the currents your hopes and beliefs are up against.

Meh, I am sure that peace will prevail. There is no other choice.

The settlement will disappear when peace is reached between Israel and Palestine.

Excuse me, but I am rubbing my eyes in disbelief at such a statement. So many levels of Catch-22 and corrupt thinking on your part. So, you sympathize -- meaning "willing to accept" -- that as long as there is no "peace" according to Zionist terms, that settlers can be given carte blanche to expand illegal settlements. Yes, and there will be pie in the sky when we die.

The major party of Begin and Netanyahu -- Likud -- proclaims "Eretz Israel" in all of Judea and Samaria. There is no accommodation with such a position -- which is very much in line with the fringe groups.

I know you are against this and are against the existence of Israel.

My opinion matters not a bit. The creation of a secular "Jewish" state -- made serious in 1919 in Paris -- which brings routine abominations close to the set-apart places, was responded to by the sanction of the rise of the Third Reich. (The world in all its history has never witnessed a nation so devastated by war rising so quickly to dominate nearly half the globe.)

However, does that excuse the violence that followed on the part of the Palestinians in the second intifada? How so?

You pretend that the Palestinian Arabs should view and respond to this as an incident in isolation, and not as it truly is: one more indignity in a long string of brutality and injustices with one end in mind: The complete obliteration of the non-Jew from Palestine ( -- under new management as "Eretz Israel") The aware Palestinian knows what he or she is up against.

that as long as there is no "peace" according to Zionist terms, that settlers can be given carte blanche to expand illegal settlements.

Meh, you should rub your eyes so more, because that is not what I wrote at all. Try responding to what is written and not what you imagine to be written, please. I do not agree with the expansion of settlements. I am against the expansion of settlements. I do not think the expansion of settlements is a good thing. I hope that is clear enough for you.

However, those settlements that do exist now will be gone when a peace agreement is reached. That is what the UN resolutions suggests: land for peace and I am for that.

The major party of Begin and Netanyahu -- Likud -- proclaims

Meh, Begin won the Nobel Prize for making peace with Egypt and returning the Sinai Pennisula. Given the right incentive, Netanyahu or the next PM will do the same with the Palestinians. If, of course, the Palestinians also have the right incentive. So, enough with the deciding everything is impossible.

The creation of a secular "Jewish" state -- made serious in 1919 in Paris -- which brings routine abominations close to the set-apart places, was responded to by the sanction of the rise of the Third Reich.

? Are you seriously suggesting it was the suggestion of a Jewish homeland in Israel that was responsible for the persecution of Jews by the Nazis? Really? Wow...Words fail me.

You pretend...

I do not pretend anything. It is a simple fact that the Second Intifada did not one thing good for the Palestinian people. Nothing.

Barkat is an idiot. He should be thought of as such and the Palestinians should be smart enough to see that. This should be a blip. The real solution is talks that lead to peace. Nothing else matters.