Judge blocks contentious Wisconsin union law
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0
yabits
Why? Because the Republicans in Wisconsin are lined up behind an anti-social idiot who is on the take from lobbyists and corporations.
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Wolfpack
I didn't know that the judges were in the Union too!
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smithinjapan
Good on this judge -- he realizes what a farce of Democracy both the law and party that passed it (against the will of the majority of the people) are.
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Molenir
Huh? What are you talking about? Barring a few idiots, Republicans don't generally support Obama.
So what you're saying smith is, that if you don't like a law, you think that a judge should be allowed to overturn it? Not based on law, or the constitution, but solely on the fact that this unelected judge and her union friends don't like it. Guess we are different in some significant respects then. I hate Obamacare, and want it overturned. Not because I don't like it, but because its unconstitutional. This law though, is not unconstitutional, they are trying to claim, that passing it, the way they did, violated the Wisconsin open meetings law. This, to put it simply, is nonsense. They were in session, meetings were being held literally every single day, and everyone was aware of this fact. Thus, there is no possible violation. The judge simply is making up an excuse out of whole cloth to slow it. Regardless of whether you, this judge, or your union thugs like it, it cannot be stopped by anything less then repeal. Something that is exceedingly unlikely to have a shot, until 2015 at the earliest. Like it or not, you and the unions are stuck with this for 4 years.
0
yabits
So Molenir says. But even the Republicans in Wisconsin don't agree with him. They admit, as the story says, "Justice Department attorneys argued that notice on a bulletin board posted about two hours before the committee meeting was to start last Wednesday was sufficient under rules of the Senate."
So the 24-hour rule was admittedly violated, but the Republicans felt -- as Republicans have the tendency to -- that the rules can be changed or disregarded at their whim for their own advantage. This is a key insight into Republican behavior: There is no principle that they won't violate or sell up the river in the pursuit of policital power.
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Molenir
Ok, I won't get into the legalities of this, apart from simply stating, its nonsense. You know it, they know it. You are merely trying to prolong this. The bill passed, and was signed into law. I realize you don't like the law, but this is the way Democracy works. Win the next 2 elections, get Walker out of there, and you can change it. Otherwise, you're stuck with it.
Apart from the nonsense here, I find it amusing and hypocritical in the extreme, that anyone from the left ever accuses republicans of disregarding the rules. All we need do is point to Princess Pelosi. She who ran the house, changing or breaking rules depending on her own personal whims.
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globalwatcher
Molenir, please go to Wisconsin Open Meeting Law before you make this comment. You can google it. There are several violations I am sure you will find. Also, I would like to note a role of independent power of 3 branches in Democracy here.
0
yabits
Ironically, the nonsense dissolves away just as soon as the legalities are considered. It is quite natural that you don't want to get into them, considering how wrong you are on this.
The law isn't what Republican legislators say it is. How can it be, operating under the double-standard that they do for nearly everything? In this case, a Republican-appointed judge knows the truth, and has applied the law fairly.
0
globalwatcher
I cannot believe your audacity, Molenior. There is no guarantee in life you and your family will stay healthy forever. You will see, Molenior.
0
Molenir
A county judge, has no authority to rule on how the legislature carries out its constitutional obligations. Let me see if I can explain things a bit simpler. Each branch of government has certain areas, in which they have complete control. They also have areas of overlap with the other branches. This is what our system of government is based on. Judges cannot tell the legislative committees how they must act. Likewise, the legislature and executive branch, can't insist that judges carry out their duties, whilst standing on their heads. Neither Judges nor the legislature can compel the Governor to do so either. Thats what this is getting into. This is a significant overreach, not based on law or the constitution, but rather the dislike of a particular bill. It will not stand.
I admit, I don't have the best health insurance in the world. But ya know, I also don't think my neighbors should have to pay my bills when I get sick. If my house burns down, I don't go and ask my neighbors to rebuild it for me. If I get in a car wreck, I don't insist my neighbors assume financial responsibility. All of us, when we reach adulthood, have to take on these burdens ourselves. If you can't, or won't, then guess what, life isn't fair. Deal with it.
0
globalwatcher
I disagree. Go to "due process" in US Constitution, Molenir.
0
globalwatcher
You hit the nail. You do not want to hear this, but your insurance company knows everything about you; credit rating, driving record, child custody payment record, house payment, your education level, gender, race, age, neighborhood you live in, how many miles you drive daily, smoker or non smoker, and goes on...... And more higher the risk you are, they automatically increase the rate, so you are forced to drop the policy. The same rule applies the to your policy that is called UNDERWRITING RISK FACTORS.
This rule goes to your health insurance if you have an existing high risk health condition. We write a policy for you and cover everything else but pre-existing conditions. I hope you check your health insurance very carefully today. I am sure there is an exclusion clause on your policy. Insured never reads their own policies. Who write them? Only lawyers can understand it.
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hworta269
This law does not take away any one's health. insurance it merely makes public employees pay a fraction of their healthcare premiums. Yeah and this law makes it so that the unions cant set their own pay raises. Also makes it possible for public employees who dont want to be members of a union to opt out of it and the dues. I dont see the big deal but conservatives dont rely on government enforced unionization for their fund raising either.
0
yabits
Talk about a fundamental misunderstanding of how the American system works. No wonder Republicans are so hostile to the rights of ordinary people.
To put it simply, the United States, ideally, is a nation governed by the rule of law. No branch of government ever has complete control over its conduct and proceedings. Ever.
Every action of each branch is subject to review by another branch. Nixon was dead wrong when he claimed that "when the President does it, it's not breaking the law." So is Molenir, when he makes the implied claim that the Republican legislature of Wisconsin has complete, unreviewable control over the legislative process. Sorry, but there are laws that apply to the process -- and the Republicans are admittedly in violation of the Open Meetings law regarding the passage of this contentious anti-union law.
0
yabits
A little bit more on the hostility of Republicans to the rights of ordinary Americans:
The Republicans of Wisconsin have passed a law -- via a procedure that violated the laws of the state -- which seeks to remove a fundamental right of ordinary people to assemble and organize themselves according to their choosing. The right of civil servants in Wisconsin to form unions and collectively bargain is well-established in law and custom by over 50 years of precedent within the state.
For a group of renegade Republicans with nothing but contempt for a fundamental right of individuals and historical precedent to craft a law designed to remove that right speaks volumes. These radical renegades are anything but conservative.
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arrestpaul
You're a hoot, "via a procedure that violated the laws of the state". This issue concerns the proceedural rules of the Wisconsin Senate. The Wisconsin Senate creates their own "proceedural" rules. Not some Democrat judge appointed by a Republican administration.
The run-away Democrat party searched every county in the State to find a judge who would rule in their favor and chose Dane County District Judge Maryann Sumi. Wisconsin Senate rules for a "committee" meeting do not necessarily apply to a "special" session or "emergency" session. Sumi (Sue me?) issued a "temporary" ruling in order to give both sides a chance to further explain their actions to the court. The primary question is whether Sumi has the jurisdiction to dictate proceedural rules to the Wisconsin Senate. That will be decided on Monday.
If Sumi insists on sticking her judicial nose into the legislative branch's internal workings, the GOP and Tea Party legislators still have the option of repassing the same law. Done deal.
The taxpaying voters have made it clear to at least one Senate Democrat that running away from the job they were elected to do is not an option.
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arrestpaul
You don't seem to understand "due process" is. You also don't seem to understand that when 13 former colonies formed a central, federal government, they did not turn over complete control of their soverign governments and legislative processes to that central government. Which means that you don't understand the difference between the U.S. Constitution and the Wisconsin State Constitution.
A Wisconsin county judge, has no authority to rule on how the Wisconsin legislature carries out its Wisconsin state constitutional obligations.
0
yabits
Totally false. The laws of state w/regards to Open Meetings apply to all government bodies. It is a law that recognizes that, ultimately, government is of the people, by the people and for the people -- and not just for a handful of corrupt, scofflaw Republicans who arrogantly think they can make up their own rules as they go along.
Who decides that? Corrupt Republicans? HAH!
Gee, when the Democrats skip town to deny a quorum, hypocritical conservatives whine that they're shirking the peoples' business. And the Republicans' own sleazy dealings are considered to be "internal" and not subject to oversight by a peoples' judge.
0
globalwatcher
arrestpaul, everything what you have said is inversed. The "due process" was interpreted the Fed gov. constitution can override the state constitutions. What you have said is completely upside down. See Gov Wallace of Alabama vs US.
0
yabits
If they searched every county, the logical place to start would have been the county which holds the state capital, Madison. That would be Dane County. Some search.
0
Molenir
So, Republicans are sleazy, while Dems are pure and clean, free from hypocrisy or fault... lol. So funny hearing how evil and corrupt Republicans are from people who wrote the book on hypocrisy and corruption. You need look no further then the unions for evidence. Next you'll be insisting that black is white, and the sky is polka dot.
0
globalwatcher
You and I can talk about this if you find the due process in the US Constitution. Otherwise, there is a million mile gap between you and I. I hope you find it. Good luck.
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yabits
People like Nixon, Liddy, Segretti and Atwater rewrote volumes on scummy tricks. Walker in Wisconsin inherits much from them.
The average rank-and-file union member is no more corrupt than any other average American.
The hypocrisy comes in when Walker allowed those unions who happened to support him to keep their collective bargaining rights. Further proving the point that "Republican principles" is an oxymoron.
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arrestpaul
In other words, you don't know.
Wallace vs US was not about the proceedures used by the Alabama State legislature. Guess again.
0
globalwatcher
I DO KNOW THE ANSWER. This is something I used to do encouraging students to do some research. So they can understand the law and history. It is a great tool. arrestpaul, I will not be able to get back with you for awhile (a month or so), but I will look for your answer.
0
arrestpaul
Democrats found the judge they needed to delay posting of this bill until "government" teachers unions could reach a contract with the school districts and milk the taxpayers for even more money.
“We highly doubt a Dane County judge has the authority to tell the Legislature how to carry out its constitutional duty.”
Even if she rules that she does have the jurisdiction, the Senate always has the option to pass this law again. It's still a done deal.
0
yabits
Whoever said that is pig-ignorant of Wisconsin law. Judge Sumi is a state judge, serving in the State Circuit Court of Dane County.
The violation of the Open Meetings law occurred in Dane County, over which the State Circuit Court of that county most certainly has jurisdiction. The TRO is right and proper.
0
Molenir
You say this, and then you say...
This. The same is true for most Republicans as well. Now, please explain to me, precisely what Walker has done that makes him corrupt, scummy, sleazy, and what other terms have I heard you use? Oh yes, evil. How does Walker even begin to compare to someone like Nixon, who we both will agree did some despicable things? If all you've got is the fact that he pushed through a law that you don't like, then everything you said, can be applied to all the Dems in Washington, as well as the President. I suspect that if you compare the numbers of the health care bill, and this repeal of collective bargaining rights, you'll see they're about the same. There are of course some big differences. One of course will help the economy, the other is a disaster. One will be beneficial for the taxpayers, while the other will do incredible harm. No, I'd say, if passing unpopular legislation is your definition of corrupt and evil, then there has never been anyone more corrupt and evil then the 3 horned monster. Pelosi, Reid, and Obama.
0
yabits
Republican voters perhaps, but certainly not their political leaders. But yet the way so many of their followers either turn blind eye to or support the lies and corruption of their leadership makes one feel that they are more complicit than the average person.
The law in question removes a fundamental right that was won by Wisconsin state employees over 50 years ago. Not all Republican leaders are bothered or intimidated by civil servant unions. Christie of New Jersey claims he absolutely relishes the opportunity to sit down at the bargaining table.
Conditions in Wisconsin are part of a pattern of decades of attacks in the United States by the elite business class -- whom Walker represents -- on ordinary working people, public and private.
No. It's passing legislation that either removes fundamental rights or ends up harming a vast majority of people. The health care bill does not qualify: I own and operate a small, growing business and am absolutely delighted that the bill will enable small business owners like me to offer affordable health care to employees.
You don't "help an economy" by driving workers' salaries and benefits downwards. Only someone who can't think rationally would believe that. Hence the Republican Party.
0
arrestpaul
You claim to know the answer but seem to be unable to put your knowledge into writing? Specific to this court case, who's "due process" has been violated?
Legal Definition of Due Process - A Constitutionally determined doctrine requiring that any legal proceeding or legislation protect or respect certain rights of the persons or groups involved in the proceedings or affected by the legislation.
Procedural due process: The requirement that a legal proceeding affords an affected person, such as the defendant in a criminal case, certain rights such as that of notice of the charges or claims, and an opportunity to contest them before a neutral tribunal. These rights are defined by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments to the United States Constitution and by court cases thereunder.
Substantive due process: The Constitutional requirement that federal, state, and local legislation should not interfere with the rights defined by the Fifth and Fourteenth Amendments, unless such legislation serves a compelling governmental interest in the subject matter, and utilizes the least restrictive means to accomplish that interest.
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arrestpaul
What "fundamental right"? The Wisconsin legislature created law that allowed "government" unions and the Wisconsin legislature can change that law.
0
yabits
The fundamental right of assembly.
All Americans are free to form and join organizations of their choosing, unions included. When a renegade government like Wisconsin's seeks to turn back the clock in order to remove a fundamental right, we're already heading down the slippery slope.
Wrong. 50 years ago, the Wisconsin legislature recognized unions composed of civil servants. There's a world of difference since no government can "allow" a right that inherently belongs to the people, such as the right of assembly. Unless, that is, an overwhelming majority of the people decide themselves to abrogate that right.
No such overwhelming majority exists in Wisconsin. Just a relatively small fraction of pea-brained, arrogant Republicans who think a narrow electoral victory has given them a mandate to interfere with rights that were recognized long ago.
0
globalwatcher
@Molenir
Nixon got away with many things while US Supreme Court majority was conservative. Please check the history of US Supreme Ct. Thanks.
0
Molenir
Excuse me? Whats your definition of harm? Not having the 'right' to stick it to that taxpayers? Thats harm, but being forced into an unwieldy and costly scheme, that will ultimately bankrupt the country, thats not harm? I can't even comprehend how messed up in the head that is.
Dude, what the hell? That was the most liberal Supreme court in history. The court under Nixon revoked the Death Penalty, and instituted Roe v Wade among other more controversial decisions. Its conservative now, but back then... And why are you bringing the US supreme court into this anyway? We're already off topic, but that came out of nowhere.
0
globalwatcher
@Molenir, I believe you are entitled entitled to your own opinion on Health care issue.
With current health care system, hospitals, MD, nurses cannot refuse non insureds due to liability. If you do not want to participate to the National Health Care program, you will be given an option not to buy one just like many do not contribute to SSI. After the reform, all med professionals will be free from liability in a big picture. NO GROUND FOR LIABILITY. And the govts do not have to pick up the unpaid medical bills. I just assure you the taxpayers and myself will not pick up your bills.
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arrestpaul
Hahahaha, you're claiming a "fundamental right" that belongs to the people as if it were included in the U.S. Bill of Rights. This alledged right was "recognized" by the Wisconsin State legislature in the first place. What the Wisconsin legislature creates, the Wisconsin legislature can change.
There is NO Wisconsin or U.S. Constitutional "right" for "government" unions or for "government" union leadership to use taxpayer dollars to elect the paymasters of their choice.
Many States and the Federal government DO NOT allow "government" unions.
The majority of taxpaying voters have spoken and "government" unions are losing control of taxpayer dollars.
0
globalwatcher
arrestpaul, I am amazed you are not yet motivated to find the answer on the due process. I assume you have not yet read the entire US Constitution. It is not too hard. I encourage you to do so before insulting any postings.
0
globalwatcher
0
globalwatcher
Oh well, I agree there are many liberal justices at that time including Burger. I do not think Death Penalty was found unconstitutional. Our state has been executing many inmates today.
0
globalwatcher
@Melnir, I do not know where you live. I live in one of few states doing okay financially as we have a subrogation clause in medical care. Upon admitting to the hospital,we are required to sign on a paper we are willing to surrender all our personal assets to the state in case of unpaid medical bills. No money, no insurance, no nothing including illegal immigrants may find a hard time to find a health care access. And we can say NO to these.
0
sfjp330
Rampant unemployment, tepid consumer spending, and deeply underfunded public pensions are the leading causes of the balance sheet issues cities are having today. But years of political chicanery and poor financial decision making by city officials are what led to this problem. Unless there is a substantial concession by the union, many cities and states will end up filing bankrupties like GM and start over.
0
yabits
The Ninth Amendment to the Constitution clearly says that "the enumeration of certain rights shall not be construed to disparage or deny others retained by the people." The fundamental right enumerated in the Bill of Rights is of assembly. As much as conservatives' financial overlords despise it, a union is a lawful assembly of citizens.
Due process demands that a lawful assembly has a right to be heard and to seek redress for grievances. Loyal Americans understand that citizens acting to protect their vital interests might, on occasion, make things inconvenient for those who would rather have obedient slaves, but that's just how things go sometimes in a free society.
I don't believe we've even begun to hear from them. See how many signatures the recall efforts generate. (They're already three-quarters along with signatures in at least two districts currently held by Republicans.)
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yabits
And the unions have been willing to make those concessions -- but not at the cost of removing the right to collectively bargain.
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sfjp330
yabits at 05:48 AM JST - 22nd March. And the unions have been willing to make those concessions -- but not at the cost of removing the right to collectively bargain.
The mistake was getting government involved in protecting workers rights. This led to an imbalance in which the unions gained the upper hand, the ability to deny the mass replacement of their members that a free market system would permit if they became too unreasonable about it. And of course when you organize government workers who can then elect their bosses by spending public money from dues extracted as a condition of employment, well, it is obvious today what you get.
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arrestpaul
Assembly is one thing, forcing taxpayers to pay for that assembly is another. If there were a "constitutional right" to form "government" unions then every State government and the Federal government would be forced to recognize "government" unions. Since that is NOT the case and no union or political party is even trying to foist that issue on the taxpaying public, you are wrong.
p.s. The signatures on the recall petitions will be verified for Wisconsin residence, so Acorn, SEIU, teachers and BarakObama dot com supporters who live outside of Wisconsin and sign these petitions will void page after page of petitions.
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arrestpaul
I notice that you still haven't shown how you think procedural due process or substantive due process was violated. Is it because you haven't got any evidence or a clue?
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yabits
Any group of people wishing to form a union and being opposed by the State would find a wealth of precedents and settled law to weigh in their favor. Ruling against them are those who believe, in their heart of hearts, that individuals should surrender their dignity and rights to those who "own" them, i.e. a State run in the service of elites.
I'm still laughing at your ignorance of Judge Sumi's legal authority as a State judge over matters happening in the county of her jurisdiction. ACORN, by the way, doesn't exist -- largely destroyed by people who view poor and underprivileged assembling together out of common interests as a dire threat.
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arrestpaul
Well then, you had better rush right out and tell all those in organized labor that there is this "wealth of precedents and settled law" that they've been ignoring for the last 50 plus years. If only they had known, they could have forced all 50 States and the Federal government to recognize "government" unions decades ago.
Acorn only changed their name. The taxpaying voters pressured their elected representatives to remove funding from an organization by that name, which had been convicted of voter fraud in 12 States. The same organization still exists and it still funds the same hundred plus organizations unders it's new names.
0
globalwatcher
Please show me where you can see the due process first. There is no short cut. You just need to read the entire constitution. It is just in front of you. Read it, it is there.
0
Molenir
This unfortunately is not the case. I'm not going to go any further though since debating the complete and total lack of merit of Obamacare, is another thread.
Furman v Georgia 1972. Very controversial 5-4 decision, was reversed 4 years later.
Heh, good one. And very true. Yabits is a pretty smart guy, despite being a loon. It surprises me that he is so willfully blind on this subject.
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arrestpaul
What are you, 10 years old? I never said due process doesn't exist. There is NO due process violation over this issue. There is NO court case claiming a due process violation.
How do you think "due process" was violated? How does "due process" apply to this law or to the temporary restraining order case before Sumi?
I refer you to the legal dictionary definition I supplied earlier in this thread.
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yabits
Within the next 50 years, all government service workers will be represented by collective bargaining entities, which we call "unions" today. Count on it.
Stronger unionization could have helped the United States from suffering the fate that awaits it, and like a brain-addled alcoholic, it appears that the country will have to hit bottom before being led out by organizations which can counter the power of those who pushed the middle-class of this nation into the abyss.
Wow, a nice nutty topping to the rest of your post. Vet all the signatures you want. At least two Republican senators are headed for recall. So much for your "majority of taxpayers" spiel.
0
arrestpaul
Wow, you've gone from 50 years in the past to 50 years in the future. Any chance you can deal with the situation as it exists today?
0
yabits
Using the milestone of when Wisconsin civil servants legally won recognition to organize to collectively bargain, to the nadir of Republican attacks on those rights, it's hard to say when the nation is going to hit the bottom it apparently needs to before things turn around.
Republicans/conservatives effectively want to make Wisconsin into a low-income backwater like Arkansas or Mississippi -- and tout that as some kind of advancement, the same way they tout Sarah Palin as a "leader." They're nuts.
The situation as it exists to day is that the seeds for a relentless drive for organization by people driven financially downwards by "masters" who demand more work for less pay and benefits have been sown.
0
Molenir
Heh, so funny. They would have to repeal the law passed by Dems and signed by Carter. That couldn't even happen during the congress that passed Obamacare. Don't see that law being repealed any time in our lifetime.
You've also gone from 8 Senators to 2. Guess you've backed away from the Walker recall as well. Thats looking less and less likely. Oddly enough though, several of the Dem senators that fled the state are also looking at recalls.
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yabits
You simply don't know what you're talking about.
No I haven't. There are more than two who will face recall elections, but it only takes two to tie in the Senate and stall Walker's agenda. That will almost certainly happen. Three will give the Democrats the majority.
Guess again. As soon as his year in office has been served, per Wisconsin law, a recall effort will take place. The people of Wisconsin have a long, bipartisan history of respect for due process and transparent government -- which Walker and his minions have certainly and egregiously violated. They're toast, as conservative ignorant of Wisconsin's history and legacy will find out.
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Molenir
lol. We'll see. Hehe.
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yabits
Today is a key day in the history of the union movement in the United States. It's the 100th anniversary of the Triangle Shirtwaist Co. fire that killed over 150 young women and men.
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yabits
Rochelle Gurstien, writing in The New Republic:
"...[I]n mid February, the governor of Wisconsin, Scott Walker, outrageously slandered teachers, nurses, social workers, bus drivers, road repairmen, sanitation workers, firemen, police—to name a few of the kinds of people who work for the good of us all and make life in our cities possible—as overpaid, pampered freeloaders. No matter that their unions made substantial concessions and sacrifices; the Republican propaganda machine continued to spread the lie that it is public workers' right to collective bargaining that is bankrupting Wisconsin. It has been this assault on the right to collective bargaining, the legal guarantor of decent wages, paid vacations and sick days, health insurance and retirement security—all previously considered normal "benefits" of any job, public or private—that has brought tens of thousands of people to Madison to protest day and night in sub-freezing weather. And when Republican lawmakers strong-armed a makeshift bill through a couple of weeks ago, 100,000 shocked dissenters immediately amassed in Madison—not only workers, but farmers too—with more protests promised to come nationwide.
0
Lieberman2012
What happened there?How did the state go from Feingold stronghold to Walker's personal 2016 platform?If unions can't prevail in Wisconsin I really fear the blowback we are looking at - like losing the public sector union vote.The vast campaign contributions from union members and the union vote are not things we can afford to lose.
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yabits
No, you don't fear any such thing. Don't right-wingers like yourself have anything better to do than to troll political forums?
0
yabits
Judge Sumi issued her final ruling today: Thumbs DOWN! on the awful anti-union law.
Great week for everyone who is working for a vibrant middle-class. The Democrat win in NY-26 was icing on the cake.
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