Mass Florida rally held after black teen shot dead

The requested article has expired, and is no longer available. Any related articles, and user comments are shown below.

  • 0

    Seavey

    Zimmerman is Hispanic. And I know I am going to get in trouble for this, but I don't think it was race hate on the part of Zimmerman. Others are positive it was though, probably read minds, and would sever a finger to prove their insistence, but I don't think it was.

    Details of what happened are sparse, and this article is no help. But it does not look like Martin was doing anything wrong when Zimmerman confronted him, they apparently had words, maybe struggled, and Zimmerman shot him to death. My guess is that either Zimmerman was just completely overzealous in his crime watch duties, or that he is a little bit crazy.

    What I find truly surprising here is the behavior of the police. They did not arrest him, which means they did not test him for drugs and alcohol. Even in a case that appears to be more clear self-defense than this, such as a shooting in one's own home, I would at least expect an arrest. After all, Dennis Fleming of New Hampshire was recently arrested just for yelling "Freeze!" and shooting the ground to make a thief stop, and that theif was caught in the act. Zimmerman killed a guy for Pete's sake!

    Also, Zimmerman called the police and was specifically told by them not to pursue the guy. He did anyway ans wound up killing the guy. Yet, they don't arrest him. If I were going to cry racism, the charge would be leveled at police. Did they wash their hands of it, thinking "Oh, its just a dead black guy?". Who knows. But I cannot find anything to suggest Martin did anything wrong.

  • 0

    yabits

    Thank you, Japan Today, for posting this article for discussion.

    I have been agonizing over the tragic event of the death of this outstanding young man for days now. As many thousands of people are, I am also shocked that a young man could be killed like this and the shooter not detained for probable cause.

  • 3

    yabits

    And I know I am going to get in trouble for this, but I don't think it was race hate on the part of Zimmerman. Others are positive it was though, probably read minds, and would sever a finger to prove their insistence, but I don't think it was.

    The 911 tapes reveal Zimmerman making a couple of comments about blacks that indicate he didn't think they were more than criminals.

    Definitely, however, the police of Sanford are completely and horribly wrong in their handling of this event. The Neighborhood Watch guidelines expressly prohibit carrying weapons or pursuing suspects.

  • 2

    smithinjapan

    Seavey: "Others are positive it was though, probably read minds, and would sever a finger to prove their insistence, but I don't think it was."

    So if someone disagrees they need to be a mind-reader?

    Agree with everything else you said. It's insane that Zimmerman was not arrested on the spot and at least tested and questioned. My guess is that as anger over this increases, they WILL announce that they are letting him go (with severance pay), based on the fact that he did not follow the suggestions by the operators not to pursue the 'target'. It won't help, ultimately, but it's about all they can do based on the moronic self-defense law that the NRA helped put in place.

  • -2

    Greapper1

    The extent of anger in the explosive case and the degree to which it has dominated the national media is surprising even for the United States, where lingering racial wounds regularly become national talking points.

    Last I checked America has an African American president...

  • 2

    yabits

    The 911 tapes reveal Zimmerman making a couple of comments about blacks that indicate he didn't think they were more than criminals.

    "f***ing coons" was what the tape picks up Zimmerman saying as he set off in pursuit of a young man returning home with a bottle of ice tea and some candy for a younger sibling waiting for him.

    they WILL announce that they are letting him go (with severance pay), based on the fact that he did not follow the suggestions by the operators not to pursue the 'target'

    The person who did not follow the directions of 911 was Zimmerman. He was a self-appointed guardian of the neighborhood and purely a volunteer, therefore severance does not apply here.

    • Moderator

      Readers, please do not post the offensive words on the tape.

  • -4

    Seavey

    So if someone disagrees they need to be a mind-reader?

    Not if they provide evidence to the contrary as yabits did. Yet I don't think yabits would sever a finger in defense of his interpretation of the evidence.

    Uttering a racial slur in an indicator of racism, but not proof. Can you imagine all the racial slurs uttered by American soldiers who served in Vietnam? Yet, some of them came home with Vietnamese wives. Under stress, the ugly side of people can take control. It does not mean the ugly side was ALWAYS in control.

    It seems Zimmerman has caught some criminals in the past. If they were black, he might use racial slurs against them, or those suspected of being the same, but not mean it for all black people. Its very much like using the term "red neck". We don't use it for all white people. Only certain white people.

  • -18

    Ch1n4Sailor

    Thousands of people outraged by the fatal shooting of an unarmed black teenager by a white crime watch volunteer

    This is exactly what's wrong with America... These people are fricken idots...

    Is it tragic that a young black teenagers was was shot and killed...? YES!

    Is this Zimmerman a fricken idiot, who probably shouldn't have been allowed to carry a firearm..? Absolutely, YES, But the law is on his side!

    But you guys protesting this are fricken crazy...! What was this kid doing in a gated community, where he doesn't live, he was taking a short-cut across private property to get to his dad's girlfriend's house (which isn't in the gated community) And then he acts in a threatening manner, against someone, who is just watching the property.

    He wasn't shot in the back, so he wasn't walking away from a confrontation, if he was shot in the back, police would have arrested Zimmerman on the spot... FACT!

    Is Zimmerman a LOSER...? YES!

    If you guys want to get outraged about something, get outraged about that 38 year old Army sergeant that killed 16 innocent people in Afghanistan! 9 innocent kids! Now that's something to get outraged about...!

    I can't believe the these fricken american losers... They are no better than Zimmerman!

  • -1

    Seavey

    Last I checked America has an African American president...

    Last I checked the white guy got 46 percent of the popular vote for president in 2008.

    Just because your neighbor is racist does not mean you are, does it? Just because you aren't racist does not mean your neighbor isn't, does it?

    Zimmerman might be racist. So might the cops involved. Its got nothing to do with who other Americans elected to the presidency.

  • 5

    yabits

    What was this kid doing in a gated community, where he doesn't live, he was taking a short-cut across private property to get to his dad's girlfriend's house (which isn't in the gated community)

    You should get your facts straight.

    The victim's father's house was in the same gated community. All indications are it was the father's house and not his girlfriend's.

  • 7

    zichi

    His parents said is wasn't a "race issue" but "an issue of justice" justice for the killing of their son

  • -2

    Tatanka

    I would like to know why is the media only showing pictures of the victim when he was approximately 12 years old (if that old) -- he was 17 at the time of the killing. Anyone questioning the media's motives for this -- stir up racial tensions, maybe? Or no one wants to do any real reporting...

  • 6

    yabits

    I would like to know why is the media only showing pictures of the victim when he was approximately 12 years old (if that old) -- he was 17 at the time of the killing.

    Trayvon Martin was an extremely young looking 17-year-old. There are plenty of recent pictures of him in the media.

  • 7

    Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land

    @Seavey

    Uttering a racial slur in an indicator of racism, but not proof. Can you imagine all the racial slurs uttered by American soldiers who served in Vietnam? Yet, some of them came home with Vietnamese wives.

    You are really reaching with that one. If Zimmerman really said what Yabits quoted him as saying is his comment at 1:04 pm (I won't quote it again) then I think you should just acknowledge that racism played a part in his actions.

  • 1

    Crackity Jones

    I have been following this story. Here is what the most recent reports say

    " His father Robert Zimmerman has said his son is an Hispanic former altar boy, and has black friends and family members. Robert Zimmerman said George Zimmerman didn't pursue Martin, and that his actions weren't race-based. "

    But it looks as if American media wants to fan the flames.

  • -1

    JA_Cruise

    It was clearly racism through and through. Zimmerman profiled the kid as being dangerous because he was black and was wearing a hood. With the amount of media coverage, this guy will get what is do to him which he should be jailed for pre-meditated manslaughter.

  • 5

    Laguna

    An Hispanic disliking a black? Shocking! That would never happen in Los Angeles; must be a Florida thing.

    The 2005 Florida law allowing people to "stand their ground" is a masterpiece. The police could not arrest Zimmerman because the law allows use of deadly force if an individual feels threatened; this does not apply when the individual provokes, but the onus is now on the police to prove provocation, and this in most cases is impossible to do. Fortunately, in this case, the young man's last moments were caught on his girl friend's cellphone; if they had not been, Zimmerman would face no punishment at all.

    The genius of gun nuts. Avoid Florida.

  • -1

    Crackity Jones

    Can Hispanic people in America be charged with hate crimes ? It doesn't seem likely.

  • 0

    yabits

    @Crackity:

    You could not have been following the case at all, since you've gotten at least one, key basic fact completely wrong. The 911 recordings contain Zimmerman's own admission that he was in pursuit of Martin.

  • 0

    Seavey

    If Zimmerman really said what Yabits quoted him as saying is his comment at 1:04 pm (I won't quote it again) then I think you should just acknowledge that racism played a part in his actions.

    I llike your wording! "Played a part". You are one shrewd dude! Yes, I do acknowledge that racism played a part. But I just cannot be sure if it was enough of a part to bother mentioning.

    You see, I have uttered quite a few racial epithets myself, even involving my own race. See my "red-neck" comment. But I am not a race hater. In fact, I love and embrace man's racial variety. I think its a wondeful thing.

    Here is a story: I was once searching around junk yards in rural Japan for car parts. At one place, I was trying to locate the owner. I went to a building with an open door, and out of the shadows beyond, a very large black man appeared and was looking right at me. I was shocked, and I know darn well that part of the shock was because he was black. That was the stupid part of my mind talking, and I slapped it down. I went on to have a nice conversation with the guy. I shook his hand as I left. But just because a part of my mind is stupid, just like everyone else, does not mean I walked away a racist, just because racism "played a part" in my initial shock at seeing a large black man in rural Japan

    I am not going to jump to a conclusion based on one worded uttered during a 911 call under stress (even if the stress was the product of imagination). Anyone angry that people of any race was imagined to have committed crimes in their neighborhood might start uttering racial epithets. Crackity Jones has provided much better proof of his stance on race, even though that is also not definitive as we might question the source (Zimmerman's father).

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    yabits: "The person who did not follow the directions of 911 was Zimmerman. He was a self-appointed guardian of the neighborhood and purely a volunteer, therefore severance does not apply here."

    Ummm... that's what I said, save for the severance pay. I'm not saying it would or wouldn't apply, I'm just suggesting the law will let him off easily, if not completely, as they tend to protect their own.

    Seavey: "Not if they provide evidence to the contrary as yabits did. Yet I don't think yabits would sever a finger in defense of his interpretation of the evidence."

    I don't think ANYONE would be dumb enough to sever a finger in defense of the obvious. You stated in your original comment that you doubted he was racist based on his own ethnicity, and that is simply not correct. You went on to suggest that people who believed he was racist must be mind-readers or would cut off their fingers to defend their arguments -- suggesting it was not true.

    "Its very much like using the term "red neck". We don't use it for all white people. Only certain white people."

    Ummm... that's not what it's like at all. Or do you feel that what Zimmerman said in the transcripts can be applied suitably to some black people but not others?

  • 1

    Laguna

    Scott Sundby, a professor at the University of Miami School of Law, said,

    On a practical level, it seems that prosecutors in Florida are much less inclined to pursue homicide charges in cases when someone claims self-defense. If it were not for the public outcry I think it's very clear that the prosecution would not have gone forward

  • 2

    Seavey

    You stated in your original comment that you doubted he was racist based on his own ethnicity

    I did no such thing. I just stated the fact that he was Hispanic. I did not base anything on that fact. I only said it because so many think he is white, and its them basing things on that falsehood.

    Hispanics can be just as racist or tolerant as anybody else. The fact that he is Hispanic only proves he isn't quite white.

  • -5

    Seavey

    Or do you feel that what Zimmerman said in the transcripts can be applied suitably to some black people but not others?

    Yes. Words do not mean the exact same things for all people. Consider the N-word. For some it means all black people all the time. For others it sometimes has nothing to do with race, as in accusations of laziness or subordination, such as in "You are my N-word now!". Lots of people have had the N-word leveled at them and they were not black or even equated with being black. Words have different meanings for different people,and that is why words change meanings over time.

    Zimmerman may have meant that epithet for specific black people only, the ones he perceives as criminals.

  • 3

    Stranger_in_a_Strange_Land

    I am not going to jump to a conclusion based on one worded uttered during a 911

    It's not much of a jump. Hop down off the fence once in a while. I was behind you in the France thread. Seemed like you had a valid point. Not so much in this one.

  • -1

    sailwind

    The article is flat out wrong. Zimmerman's mother is Peruvian and he is not "white crime watch volunteer" he is a mixed race crime watch volunteer and he has more in common with President Obama on that count then any charge of White racism on his part, what shoddy reporting.

  • 0

    Seavey

    It's not much of a jump.

    Again, shrewd. At least you admit there is a jump. I will await more evidence. I would just as soon judge a person by their accent as judge them on one word gleaned from a 911 call.

    I believe that deep down inside, we all have racist tendencies. And that is why we must be very careful about making such a charge as racism. No one can be honest and escape the charge. The real quesiton is not if a man is a racist to some degree. The real question is to what degree he is a racist.

    Are we supposed to believe Zimmerman would not have tailed or shot Martin if he were a fellow Hispanic? I need more proof.

  • 2

    Crackity Jones

    Why don't people check the local newspaper? Here is something from the paper in Orlando. Fla.

    Statement of Robert Zimmerman, father of Neighborhood Watch volunteer:

    " The tragic events of February 26 are very sad for all concerned. The Martin family, our family, and the entire community have been forever changed.

    The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting are false and extremely misleading. Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas.

    George is a Spanish speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever. One black neighbor recently interviewed said she knew everything in the media was untrue and that she would trust George with her life. Another black neighbor said that George was the only one, black or white, who came and welcomed her to the community, offering any assistance he could provide. Recently, I met two black children George invited to a social event. I asked where they met George. They responded that he was their mentor. They said George visited them routinely, took them places, helped them, and taught them things and that they really loved George. The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth."

  • -1

    combinibento

    Why don't people check the local newspaper? Here is something from the paper in Orlando. Fla.....

    Who cares? The problem is more than that fool ZImmerman. The problem is a government agency (such as the police) that apparently has absolutely no interest in conducting any type of investigation and took this man at his word, despite overwhelming evidence and witness statements suggesting he chased down and shot to death a child.

  • -2

    combinibento

    Police are investigating

    One month later, and only after all the public outcry and the DOJ stepped in...

  • 0

    PeaceWarrior

    Local police say they believe Zimmerman cannot be prosecuted thanks to a Florida law that lets state residents use lethal force in self-defense.

    How can the "Hold Your Ground" law apply when the shooter actually exits his car and walks after a kid to shoot him?

  • 2

    gyouza

    Although you could say they are the same, but this was an issue of racial profiling not necessarily racial hatred. Zimmerman saw a black guy, and just assumed he was a robber of some sort. What followed is the most disgusting misuse of law I can recall in a long time. Police did background check on the victim, but failed to do one on the assailant. Did a substance test on the victim, but failed to do so on the assailant. All this AFTER they told the assilant NOT to follow the victim. The assailants clothes were not retained as evidence (gunblast, etc) and are now inadmissable. All this when it is against the local neighbourhood watch rules for the watchers to pursue anyone, and to be armed.

    Police also misquoted a local resident saying the victim was stradled ON the assialant

    Added my voice to the online petition at change.org - I really can't see why he shouldn't be questioned more, I can't imagine how he was ever let free so quickly.

    Take the race out of this - this is just crazy policing.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Just posting this for some clarity of the events:

    I have no idea what transpired between the two individuals and I am not going to conjecture who provoked who and who did what. But there was a violent altercation between the two of them before Mr. Martin was shot by Mr. Zimmerman. Whether this was to the level of self-defense or not is now going to be someone else's call that is much higher than the Sanford Police Department call that it was at this point.

    Feb. 26: Trayvon Martin, a 17-year-old Florida high school student, is found shot and killed, in Sanford, Fla., a community north of Orlando.

    Several eyewitnesses report to police that they heard a scuffle, then a cry for help, and then a gunshot.

    According to the Sanford police report, George Zimmerman, 28, a self-appointed neighborhood watch captain, is found armed with a handgun, standing over Martin. He has a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head.

  • -1

    Seavey

    He has a bloody nose and a wound in the back of his head.

    Who is he? Martin or Zimmerman?

  • 2

    Laguna

    Take the race out of this - this is just crazy policing.

    It is crazy policing combined with incredibly foolish lawmaking. But please let's not take the race out of this. If a black man had shot a white (or Hispanic) man after pursuing him through a neighborhood, he would have been cuffed and jailed first and asked questions later - if he were lucky.

    Oh, and sailwind, the victim was 17, a hundred pounds lighter then the perpetrator, and armed with a bag of Skittles and a PET bottle of iced tea, and yet you leave "whether this was to the level of self-defense" as an open question. Bravo: that's one step closer to making "he looked at me funny" an acceptable defense for homicide.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    sailwind: "The article is flat out wrong. Zimmerman's mother is Peruvian and he is not "white crime watch volunteer" he is a mixed race crime watch volunteer and he has more in common with President Obama on that count then any charge of White racism on his part, what shoddy reporting."

    Hang on a sec... now you're bringing Obama into this? Is it Republican nominee election time or something? You can't remove the race from this given Zimmerman's comments, nor can you remove the crime. Saying it's akin to your president is from another world altogether, though.

    But like I've said a dozen times now, there are those that will try and undermine the crime by pointing the finger everywhere but where it belongs -- the scumbag Zimmerman.

    Laguna: "Bravo: that's one step closer to making "he looked at me funny" an acceptable defense for homicide."

    Bingo! Just like I said. Excellent posts on this thread, by the way.

  • -3

    Seavey

    Thumbs up Laguna, but I think you are unfair to Sailwind. Zimmerman should not have confronted Martin, that was the beginning of everything, ie, he started it. However, if Martin reacted angrily and attacked Zimmerman first, well then, that would mean he started the violence. And if he attacked someone and got shot and killed for it, then he must take a big chunk of blame.

    But that is all a big IF. I have no idea who started the violence. All I know is that Zimmerman pursued and confronted Martin, and that means Zimmerman carries a big chunk of blame himself, regardless of who started the violence. But if Zimmerman started the violence, then its ALL on him, every last drop, and he should be in prison for life IF so. But how to tell?

    I know its annoying, but I am not jumping to conclusions.

  • 0

    Seavey

    Oh, also Zimmerman carries more blame just for being armed. He was not supposed to be. But if you are armed and if even an unarmed person attacks you, you now find yourself in a situation where if your attacker gets the weapon, you could be dead in very short order.

    But its no catch 22. Zimmerman should not have been armed, and he should definitely be serving some jail time for taking a pistol to confront someone he should have left alone. The whole thing started with Zimmerman. No getting around that.

  • 1

    Laguna

    And if he attacked someone and got shot and killed for it, then he must take a big chunk of blame.

    That's my whole point, Seavey: in a rational world, any minor misunderstanding between individuals might be cleared up with some discussion and perhaps of bit of posturing. Florida, though, is not a rational world, thanks to this idiotic law.

    This is what the US has become: a 17-year old kid has to take "a big chunk of blame" for his own death because society has deemed it acceptable to shoot first and ask questions later. That is a tender age to figure this out; perhaps other youth can learn from his experience and voluntarily spread-eagle themselves on the pavement when challenged - black youth in particular.

    This story hit me a bit personally because Trayvon is the same age and has the same build as my son; they actually look quite similar. It could have been my son - but then, my son is not black.

  • -2

    It"S ME

    Local police say they believe Zimmerman cannot be prosecuted thanks to a Florida law that lets state residents use lethal force in self-defense.

    1st it must be established that he really acted in "Self-Defense" in the legal sense/definition. Right now it is just a claim(ie his word).

  • 1

    PeaceWarrior

    A 17yo armed with candy vs an adult armed with a gun. The adult should have known better and I don't know in what world the 17yo would ever have to take "a big chunk of blame' for getting his ass killed.

    Ridiculous comment, ridiculous law, ridiculous state...

  • 2

    Vernie Jefferies

    Why was this man carrying a firearm during a neighborhood watch? Neighborhood watches are not vigilante organizations. When suspecting criminal activities, members are encouraged to contact authorities and not to intervene. Zimmerman just did a dumb thing by confronting this kid. Last time I checked walking home from 7eleven is not a crime. Also Zimmerman better hope he never goes to jail because they have they own brand of justice inside, especially for guys who harm children and old people.

  • 0

    lostrune2

    There was another Florida case where Person A pursued Person B, and in the altercation, Person A blasted Person B. But at the end of the case, the judge let Person A go because of this Florida "Stand Your Ground" law. So it seems, being the pursuer does not automatically disqualify someone from this law.

  • 6

    yabits

    Why was this man carrying a firearm during a neighborhood watch?

    One of the most important facts has yet to be mentioned by anyone: The fact that Trayvon Martin had no knowledge of the status of this Zimmerman character as a "neighborhood watch." All Martin knew was that he was doing nothing wrong, but just heading home in the rain after a trip to the store, and somebody for reasons unknown was following him.

    In fact, the 911 tapes reveal Trayvon clearly asking Zimmerman, "Why are you following me?" -- and Zimmerman does not reply with an answer about his role as "watch." Instead, Zimmerman further confronts him with a question about what he's doing. At that point, Trayvon Martin is just as much entitled to fear for his safety and act in self-defense because he's being followed and threatened by some unknown character.

    Just posting this for some clarity of the events

    Skipping the above critical "fact" does not add to any clarity. Some people are only willing to see this from the self-appointed crime vigilante's point of view, which is solely how the criminally incompetent Sanford police saw it.

    Whether this was to the level of self-defense or not is now going to be someone else's call that is much higher than the Sanford Police Department call that it was at this point.

    Thank God for that. By carrying a weapon and pursuing someone who wasn't engaged in any activity besides walking home from the store, Zimmerman was in total violation of the rules for Neighborhood Watches. He pursued Martin even after being specifically instructed by the police/emergency department not to do so. Zimmerman caused a situation where he gave the victim in this case a reason for self-defense from the victim's point of view. The Sanford Police didn't care about any of that. They were either too stupid or too sympathetic with Zimmerman to ask some very simple questions which would have shattered his claim of "self-defense."

  • 0

    Laguna

    I'm not surprised the gun huggers haven't commented on this post, although it would be sadly amusing to hear them claim things would have been better if only Trayvon had been armed. The NRA will be equally cowardly, just as they were after the Rep. Giffords shooting; they'll be "unavailable" for a period, then accuse gun control advocates of "trying to politicize a tragic situation." It WAS the politics that most likely set up this situation: Zimmerman was made trigger-happy by the concept that he would not be held accountable for his actions, and he was proved right by the response of the government, at least initially.

    The NRA and its supporters are a cancer on America.

  • -4

    just-a-bigguy

    The Jasmine revolution in America has begun!

  • 3

    The Truth Matters

    I'd like to talk to all the JT posters with sons.

    I've been following this thing with that kid Trayvon Martin down in Florida and a few things stick out in my head. Trayvon was said to look "suspicious." Why? I'm not going to play the race game; there are enough people taking care of that. Trayvon was wearing a hoodie and he had the hood up. Ask yourself, how many wanted pictures have you seen with the bad guy sketched. If you think about it, a lot of those sketches contain a hood.

    I'm telling you guys, those damn things are killers. I told my son, if he's wearing a hoodie, it had better be real damn cold outside for that hood to be up because there are just too many people running around scared witless. And a lot of them are armed. If they can't see your face, you are a threat to them. And in some places, that means they can shoot you.

    This may not be a big deal for those of you in the country, but in then cities, and now even the suburbs, you have to be careful and even if you are a kid, you have to maintain situational awareness.

    I hope all of you guys will have the same talk with your own sons.

  • -2

    Seavey

    A 17yo armed with candy vs an adult armed with a gun.

    Armed with candy? Now that is ridiculous. Nobody really knows what anybody is armed with unless they are buck naked. Hind-sight really is 20/20. It sounds like neither knew the other was armed or not when the crap hit the fan. If, and its a BIG if, Martin attacked Zimmerman, that would be when Zimmerman went for his gun. If Martin was fast enough, it may have led for a struggle with the gun. At that point, they are BOTH armed with the same gun.

    Maybe you watch a lot of movies and imagine that one gets the upper hand and casually backs off, points the gun, and other just capitulates. Well life is not the movies, and after struggling with a gun and all that adreneline and fear for your life, its quite likely anyone would shoot the other without a second thought. Its also likely the one who failed to get the gun will just raise his hands and give up, especially if he has no idea what the motive of that guy who was following him is.

    And you would be a complete fool to think a 17 year old is not capable of inflicting extreme damage on you if motivated.

    I don't know what happened. I don't pretend to know what happened. And I doubt we ever will know what happened since the police failed to arrest and properly interogate Zimmerman. But I do not better than to pretend its impossible that this guy Martin, who I never met, could not possibly have had anything to do with why he got shot.

    Oh, I know it feels good to think he is totally blameless. It makes things simple, black and white and cut and dry. But that does mean that is the way it went down.

  • -1

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    I've heard that for many black men in the US, they get "the talk" from their dads when they turn 14 or 15. Not about sex, but about how to stay alive. How to deal with police, never to run in public, especially when carrying something, keep your hands empty at all times, etc.

    As for this case, there are a few relevant facts. One, young Trayvon was doing nothing wrong that night. There is no evidence that he either broke any laws or even was intending to. Two, Zimmerman precipitated the controntation by failing to obey the 911 operator. Other than that, nothing really matters.

  • 1

    Vernie Jefferies

    @ the Truth Matters...Trayvon was wearing his hoodie up because it was raining at the time.

  • -1

    TigermothII

    Too often we only have one side of the story - but in this case the police told Zimmerman not to approach the individual (Trayvon) and he clearly did so anyway and forced some sort of confrontation. Whether Trayvon was 'up to something' or had any intent other than walking home is almost irrelevant. This isn't the wild west and you can't just go out and shoot some kid because you 'suspect' he might be up to something. Personally I think he was just up to walking home, nothing more - and the fat, insecure racist kid shot him. He had likely had run-ins with some other youth of color so he had a chip or something to prove. You can here it on the 911 call. He wanted something to be happening so he made it so. I'm usually the last one to decry racism on many of the supposed accounts - but I can't see how this is anything but a kid being killed because he was black.

  • 0

    Laguna

    And you would be a complete fool to think a 17 year old is not capable of inflicting extreme damage on you if motivated.

    My, my.

    But I do not better than to pretend its impossible that this guy Martin, who I never met, could not possibly have had anything to do with why he got shot.

    There are, you see, two sides to every story, even to one in which an armed man with ten years and a hundred pounds over his prey guns him down.

    Oh, I know it feels good to think he is totally blameless. It makes things simple, black and white and cut and dry.

    Moral relativism is to be abhorred unless the side to which one feels affinity commits an inexcusable action. Good point.

    But that does mean that is the way it went down.

    When the exact truth will never be known, let's stick with the scenario closest to our world view rather than the one most fitting objective reality.

    Seavey, you obviously do not have children.

  • 1

    Seavey

    When the exact truth will never be known, let's stick with the scenario closest to our world view rather than the one most fitting objective reality.

    The exact truth that Zimmerman should not have been armed, should not have followed Martin, and should not have confronted are all quite enough for me to support locking him up for at least a dozen years.

    Everything else I said had a big "if" attached to it. Did you not understand or not want to?

    Seavey, you obviously do not have children.

    According to my son, you jumped to that conclusion in error.

  • 0

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    Other interesting details I heard on the news about the situation;

    1. Trayvon's corpse was drug-tested by the police. Zimmerman was not.
    2. The weapon used was never confiscated or examined.

    3. The author of the original "Stand Your Ground" bill, a Republican state legislator, said during an interview that his law absolutely would NOT protect a person acting like Zimmerman did.

  • 1

    Laguna

    But I do not better than to pretend its impossible that this guy Martin, who I never met, could not possibly have had anything to do with why he got shot.

    I suppose that, except for the fact that the perpetrator "should not have been armed, should not have followed Martin, and should not have confronted" - except for the fact that this act was caused exclusively by Zimmerman, and that the boy was completely in his rights to have gone to a convenience store and walked home forthwith - altogether, except for the fact that this would in any sane jurisdiction be automatically classified as homicide - well, yeah, "this guy Martin" left himself wide open by being a black youth with a hoodie on. So I guess we're in agreement.

    Congratulations on having a son, Seavey. Mine, as I said, is 17, born almost to the month as Trayvon. One reason I am so glad to live in Japan is that I know the possiblity he won't come home someday is so much lower here. Sure, this doesn't happen everyday even in America, but even once is really inexcusable. You lose your son; the police say it was justifiable; case closed. This is the horror story that America has become. I pray that your son does not similarly become prey to American gun culture.

  • 2

    Laguna

    Florida Governor Scott weighed in judiciously:

    As law enforcement investigates the death of Trayvon Martin, Floridians and others around the country have rightly recognized this as a terrible tragedy. Like all Floridians, I believe we must take steps to ensure tragedies like this are avoided. After listening to many concerned citizens in recent days, I will call for a task force on citizen safety and protection to investigate how to make sure a tragedy such as this does not occur in the future, while at the same time, protecting the fundamental rights of all of our citizens -- especially the right to feel protected and safe in our state.

    Replace "tragedy" with "crime" to get a tad closer to reality. Also, read the last clause as the first salvo in the battle to protect Florida's criminally negligible gun laws.

    Let us not let the death of a young man distract us from our firearm-infatuated culture - that is his message. Way to go, guv.

  • 0

    Seavey

    well, yeah, "this guy Martin" left himself wide open by being a black youth with a hoodie on.

    Laguna, going out of your way to mischaracterize my points is not very mature. I may be making fine points, but its only in response to people jumping to unnecessary conclusions.borne by no evidence.

    One reason I am so glad to live in Japan is that I know the possiblity he won't come home someday is so much lower here.

    Me too. I am no gun nut and I was very happy to leave gun culture behind. If all guns disappeared tomorrow, I would throw a party. But dreams are dreams. America is awash in guns. Its a reality that must be faced when discussing America, and my ideal of a gun free society is neither here nor there. And I am in not in agreement with any law that would see Zimmerman walk free after this either.

    Like I said, I would put him away for a dozen years at least. If I had any reason to think he just gunned Martin down in cold blood (and I don't) I would want him to get life.

  • -2

    oginome

    America - what a hell hole.

    Uttering a racial slur in an indicator of racism, but not proof. Can you imagine all the racial slurs uttered by American soldiers who served in Vietnam? Yet, some of them came home with Vietnamese wives. Under stress, the ugly side of people can take control. It does not mean the ugly side was ALWAYS in control.

    I don't think you understand, indicator and proof aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Using a racial slur means you are a racist.

    I am not going to jump to a conclusion based on one worded uttered during a 911 call under stress (even if the stress was the product of imagination). Anyone angry that people of any race was imagined to have committed crimes in their neighborhood might start uttering racial epithets. Crackity Jones has provided much better proof of his stance on race, even though that is also not definitive as we might question the source (Zimmerman's father).

    Under stress, people start saying things they'd keep hidden at other times. If he came out with the racial slurs when he was stressed, then that says everything.

    Yes. Words do not mean the exact same things for all people. Consider the N-word. For some it means all black people all the time. For others it sometimes has nothing to do with race, as in accusations of laziness or subordination, such as in "You are my N-word now!". Lots of people have had the N-word leveled at them and they were not black or even equated with being black. Words have different meanings for different people,and that is why words change meanings over time.

    Throwing the N-word at a black person is racist. Just because white kids say it to each other all the time as they spin the latest boring rap cd doesn't mean anything. The N-word remains racist, it's meaning hasn't changed, even if different groups of people have tried to appropriate it and others reclaim it. Zimmerman used racist terms in the 911 call.

    Oh, I know it feels good to think he is totally blameless. It makes things simple, black and white and cut and dry. But that does mean that is the way it went down.

    He was pursued by Zimmerman, so any action Trayvson would have taken would have been in HIS own self defence. 'Why are you following me?' - Trayvson's words. I'm sorry, but you are jumping to conclusions by speculating that he might have had something to do with his own death when he really didn't. This was completely instigated by Zimmerman. Those insane gun ownerships laws, coupled with racist individuals who take advantage of them, lead to tragedy.

    One reason I am so glad to live in Japan is that I know the possiblity he won't come home someday is so much lower here. Sure, this doesn't happen everyday even in America, but even once is really inexcusable.

    8 children and teens are killed every day in America due to guns.

  • 0

    gelendestrasse

    First off, neighborhood watch people aren't supposed to be armed. They have no police powers, they just observe and report. Strike one against Zimmerman.

    From the US news, Zimmerman was on the phone with the 911 dispatcher and told her he was pursuing the kid. The 911 dispatcher said "we don't need you to do that." Perhaps this should have been phrased more directly, but Zimmerman continued his pursuit, saying something like "they always get away." Strike two.

    Apparently the kid was on the phone with a friend when Zimmerman caught up with him. From what the friend related the kid was scared and Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. Strike three.

    There seems to be some confusion about the "stand your ground" law and it's applicability here. Unfortunately for Zimmerman "standing your ground" probably won't go so far as to followning somebody, starting a scuffle, and then shooting. I expect that this is just being used by the cops to try to explain their behaviour.

    I know that, in New York, Zimmerman would have been arrested on the spot. I expect that the Grand Jury is going to come to a similar conclusion in Florida and that Zimmerman will be prosecuted for at least 2nd degree murder. If the prosecution thinks his statements during the chase constitute intent then the charge could be 1st degree murder. I am leaning in that direction but not sure it would stick.

    I think Zimmerman is in big trouble. I feel really sorry for the kid and his family. This should have never happened and wouldn't have if Zimmerman had followed the rules and what he was told.

  • 2

    Suzu1

    It is irresponsible of the media to stoke claims of racism. Zimmerman is not a white guy. He has the perfect white guy name, though.

  • 2

    yabits

    Zimmerman was recorded as having called 911 nearly 50 times since January 2011 -- usually to report the "suspicious" doings of African-Americans.

    Would Zimmerman have thought the person walking home from the store in the rain was "suspicious" had he been Caucasian? The answer to that question really helps to determine the extent of Zimmerman's racial biases. (I certainly don't think he would have. There's no record of him calling 911 to report a suspicious white person.)

    However, while Zimmerman is the convenient goat here, the real evil force at work is the local police. The ones who are supposed to uphold public safety. If the roles had been reversed and it was a black vigilante killing an unarmed white kid , would the police have been so willing to buy the guy's story?

    The NRA and its supporters are a cancer on America.

    There was a time and place when the NRA strongly supported gun laws: It was when the conservative Ronald Reagan was governor of California and had to deal with the "threat" of Black Panthers heavily arming themselves and carrying those weapons in public places. Those scared white folks couldn't pass gun control laws fast enough!

  • 1

    gyouza

    @seavey - your posts are quite erratic, which side are you on (if any)?

    And you would be a complete fool to think a 17 year old is not capable of inflicting extreme damage on you if motivated

    You capture it all in a nutshell here. This being the case, why on earth would you pursue someone that fits this description and not leave it to "proper" law enforcement? I go back to what I said earlier, this is not racial hatred, it is profiling - black/hood = burglar, no other option, must stop whatevever before someones property gets violated.

    That is not the real crime here, failing to process the real criminal, the person who has undoubtedly broken the law is the real issue. Shame (and disgrace) upon Florida police.

  • -1

    TigermothII

    Okay, I almost got caught up in the doubt when I heard that perhaps Zimmerman had blood on his face and neck, and grass on his back (according to one report), indicating a scuffle. I can see it going down as Zimmerman follows then approaches Trayvon. Trayvon sees kind of chunky, nerdy Hispanic looking dude asking him what he's doing, maybe acting aggressive. So Trayvon decides to call him on it, maybe they get into a fight and Trayvon hits him a few times. Zimmerman get's PO'd and shoots him. That could be construed - although grasping quite a bit - as self defense.

    BUT, there are several problems there. The obvious one being that Zimmerman was told not to confront, and should not have confronted. The second obvious problem was why the hell was he sitting around packing a gun? I've lived in two major cities, and both times in heavy crime areas. I never thought about carrying a gun. But the other stupid part in this is that all Trayvon was doing was essentially cutting across someone's lawn. How may of us did that when we were kids? I did it a thousand times. So you're going to confront, fight and kill some kid because he walked on your lawn? If there had been a series of break ins in this housing development, and IF (big IF) Zimmerman and seen Trayvon trying to pry open a window, then I could at least see something of pause there. But the poor kid was literally walking to the store for a snack and then cutting through the shortest way home. I've done that; my kids have done that. The most that should have happened is a 'hey kid, stay off the grass, this is private property' to which, had I been Trayvon I probably would have shouted, 'yeah, yeah, F### you!' and walked on. And even if it did lead to confrontation and Trayvon punched him, fights happen all the time, and you don't pull out a gun and shoot your opponent. That's murder folks. Zimmerman chose to confront, and chose to do so armed. I don't see how any evidence that Zimmerman's father could produce would show otherwise.

  • 0

    TigermothII

    I should have said evidence that Zimmerman's father indicated would be brought to light

  • -1

    The Truth Matters

    I think it's funny that Zimmerman's father is claiming there is no way Zimmerman could be racist because he's hispanic himself.

    Because there's never been a racist hispanic before. Nope. Never happened.

  • 0

    Maurice Wright

    I live in Florida and know how the "stand your ground" law works. I've had a few friends killed by it. It works like this: You take a gun, make sure only the target can make 100% claim of the truth, shoot to kill, claim self defense. End of story. One of my friends ended up with 12 bullet holes by two gun huggers claiming self defense. They were never tried because the police could only come up with what neighbors heard (a struggle, yells for help... sounds familiar). The state never went past the paperwork because the NRA law as we like to call it really protects crazy gun huggers 100% as long as they follow the steps above. The only time it does not work is if there's another witness you forget to kill.

  • 0

    sailwind

    Oh, and sailwind, the victim was 17, a hundred pounds lighter then the perpetrator, and armed with a bag of Skittles and a PET bottle of iced tea, and yet you leave "whether this was to the level of self-defense" as an open question. Bravo: that's one step closer to making "he looked at me funny" an acceptable defense for homicide.

    Laguna,

    I do not know how violent the fight was between them. All I know is that there was a fight and Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound on the back of his head prior to the shooting. I can't say if the severity of the fight was to the level of self-defense, I'm inclined to believe it was not but I really can't say for sure. As unpleasant as this may be to post the fact is that countless victims have been beaten to death by another that were using just their bare hands it is an open question and if charges are filed well be the central open question that a jury will have to decide. It's the whole legal case in a nutshell and answering it either yes or no will ultimately determine Zimmerman's fate.

    On Hoodies. I think many that have associated hoodies with criminals haven't really realized how that might have came to be and it is not a race thing at least in my opinion. For almost twenty years or so the most wanted man in America was Ted Kaczynski the Unabomber. The FBI's sketch of him in his hoodie and sunglasses was all over the place as they enlisted the public to try and identify him. It was the more than likely the most famous sketch that the FBI ever released to the public to enlist their help. I think the general public was already primed to think people wearing hoodies were more than likely to be up to no good. NOT AN EXCUSE for this or for Zimmerman's actions. Just posting some thoughts that I have been having on this whole tragic situation.

  • -1

    oginome

    I do not know how violent the fight was between them. All I know is that there was a fight and Zimmerman had a bloody nose and a wound on the back of his head prior to the shooting. I can't say if the severity of the fight was to the level of self-defense, I'm inclined to believe it was not but I really can't say for sure. As unpleasant as this may be to post the fact is that countless victims have been beaten to death by another that were using just their bare hands it is an open question and if charges are filed well be the central open question that a jury will have to decide. It's the whole legal case in a nutshell and answering it either yes or no will ultimately determine Zimmerman's fate.

    No, this was Zimmerman's fault entirely. If there was a fight, IF, it was Zimmerman's fault since he is the one who pursued this child in the first place and instigated this whole mess. Remember Trayvon's words which were heard on the 911 call 'Why are you following me?'. It was Zimmerman, in his racial profiling zeal, who was determined to start something here. It was certainly not self-defense or 'fear' of being attacked when Trayvon was initially minding his own business. The punches and wounding that Zimmerman incurred would have been down to Trayvon exercising his own right to defend himself from a percieved (what turned out to be an ACTUAL) threat. Responsibility lies with Zimmerman and the insane, barbaric gun laws.

  • 2

    Seavey

    The punches and wounding that Zimmerman incurred would have been down to Trayvon exercising his own right to defend himself from a percieved (what turned out to be an ACTUAL) threat.

    So if someone follows you and asks you questions, you have a right to physically attack that person? Steady yourself please. Its just a question. I am not saying that is what happened. I don't know. I just want to know what you think is an acceptable response if someone follows you and asks you questions.

  • 1

    Seavey

    This being the case, why on earth would you pursue someone that fits this description and not leave it to "proper" law enforcement?

    Because law enforcement is a joke? God help you if think the police are much protection. Mostly what they do is write reports. This is a big reason why the people of that community started a Neighborhood Watch program. But that does not preclude the fact that Zimmerman was way over the line.

    your posts are quite erratic, which side are you on (if any)?

    Refusal to make a conclusion without sufficient evidence is not being "erratic". Making "if" statements is not being "erratic". You and several other people would love for me to make a clear stand on certain points without having all the facts. Well its a fool's errand, and I am not going to do it.

    What I know for sure is that this all started with Zimmerman doing a bunch of things he should not have been doing. But I do not know how the confrontation went down and I refuse to guess. We have two phases here 1) how it all started and 2) the confrontation. Zimmerman is completely at fault for phase 1. But like it or not, fault for phase 2 is partially inconclusive at this point, given what information I have, and more importantly, don't have. Given phase 1, Zimmerman is at least 70 percent responsible for phase 2, because he initiated that confrontation armed with a gun. If I had information I don't have, it could go up to 100 percent. Thus, Zimmerman is responsible for the death anywhere from 70 to 100 percent. You could say its the difference between aggravated manslaughter and outright murder. Thus, I am on the side of Martin, and Zimmerman belongs in jail.

    And if you can't follow that, its not because I am erratic. My position has been totally consistent.

  • 1

    sailwind

    It was Zimmerman, in his racial profiling zeal, who was determined to start something here.

    Doesn't fit with the Objective facts that have been reported. From what has been reported this is what I have gathered. Trayvon Martin’s was pretty much a typical 17 year old who was going through a bit of the teenage rebellious stage. His parents by all accounts are darn good parents and despite their being divorced have stayed actively involved in parenting him. Trayvon had been recently suspended from school for a couple of weeks in the South Florida Miami area. His mother then sent him to his Father's house in Sanford in Northern Florida. I do hate guessing, but my gut feeling is since they are good parents and involved with him that he sent there to have his Father's discipline in setting Trayvon back on the straight and narrow after the suspension.

    Zimmerman had been doing the neighborhood watch thing for years. He would know all the familiar faces in his neighborhood no matter what race or ethinicty. Trayvon would have been a total stranger to him which is damn unfortunate as that set this whole tragic event in motion. Also by all the facts that have been reported Zimmerman comes from a multi-racial family and a multi-racial background and his neighborhood is multi-racial. The objective facts as reported show this really wasn't about race between Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin in this tragedy.

  • -2

    oginome

    So if someone follows you and asks you questions, you have a right to physically attack that person? Steady yourself please. Its just a question. I am not saying that is what happened. I don't know. I just want to know what you think is an acceptable response if someone follows you and asks you questions.

    The law states that you can defend yourself if you just feel physically threatened by the other person, not just if that person physically attacks you. And that's the excuse Zimmerman is using, so why doesn't it also apply to Treyvon? It was Zimmerman who targeted Treyvon for no reason except for being black, we can already see from the racial slurs he used in the phone call, and the 911 operator who advised him not to shoot, but he went ahead and did it anyway. He instigated it, he FOLLOWED Treyvon who responded with 'Why are you following me?' Treyvon was minding his own business. If Zimmerman is allowed to shoot based on fear and nothing else, then why wouldn't Treyvon be allowed to defend himself from what he perceived to be a threat? Steady please.

    Doesn't fit with the Objective facts that have been reported. From what has been reported this is what I have gathered. Trayvon Martin’s was pretty much a typical 17 year old who was going through a bit of the teenage rebellious stage. His parents by all accounts are darn good parents and despite their being divorced have stayed actively involved in parenting him. Trayvon had been recently suspended from school for a couple of weeks in the South Florida Miami area. His mother then sent him to his Father's house in Sanford in Northern Florida. I do hate guessing, but my gut feeling is since they are good parents and involved with him that he sent there to have his Father's discipline in setting Trayvon back on the straight and narrow after the suspension.

    Actually, it fits in perfectly. We heard the racist terms he used in the phone call. Treyvon wasn't threatening Zimmerman, it was Zimmerman that marked him out as suspicious and started following him. Even if he was going through a rebellious stage, walking and having your hood up while carrying sweets does not indicate any threat or provide any justification for Zimmerman's racial profiling.

    Zimmerman had been doing the neighborhood watch thing for years. He would know all the familiar faces in his neighborhood no matter what race or ethinicty. Trayvon would have been a total stranger to him which is damn unfortunate as that set this whole tragic event in motion. Also by all the facts that have been reported Zimmerman comes from a multi-racial family and a multi-racial background and his neighborhood is multi-racial. The objective facts as reported show this really wasn't about race between Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin in this tragedy.

    Shouldn't he as a good neighbourhood watch, have known about Treyvon? And anyway, 'stranger' doesn't automatically meant threat? And Zimmerman can be racist even if he's not white. We know he is from the terms he used in the call.

  • -1

    yabits

    So if someone follows you and asks you questions, you have a right to physically attack that person?

    A person has a basic civil right to walk from a store to the place they are staying without being harassed in any way. What authority did Zimmerman have to follow Martin and question him? Especially since Martin specifically asked him, "Why are you following me?'

    Note that Trayvon Martin's first reaction was to try get away from the stranger he sensed was following him. It is the "following" and not necessarily the words coming out of the pursuer's mouth that can be perceived as threatening to a completely innocent person.

    But I do not know how the confrontation went down and I refuse to guess.

    One thing is known about the end of the confrontation: On at least one of the 911 calls, Martin's high voice can be heard screaming for help and begging for mercy -- and then is silenced by a gunshot. Those things are verifiable facts. Does a person who is attacking another person scream for help and beg for mercy? How could the unarmed Martin who was expressing his dire distress represent the kind of threat that would justify Zimmerman using deadly force?

    If Martin attacked Zimmerman, what would have been his motive? Why wouldn't self-defense apply in his case? Remember the fact of Florida law that states that all that is required is for a citizen to feel threatened.

    The weight of the evidence suggests that Martin was not looking for any trouble. He was just walking home from the store. However, the same evidence clearly shows that the armed and dangerous Zimmerman was the one out looking for trouble. Zimmerman had no authority whatsoever to attempt to stop Martin and question him. Not identifying himself as any kind of authority, and the chip-on-the-shoulder attitude he conveyed in his 911 call certainly suggest that he could have been perceived by a scared young person as threatening.

  • -1

    yabits

    Zimmerman had been doing the neighborhood watch thing for years.

    Irrelevant. Zimmerman had no formal authority to carry a weapon to pursue someone who was not breaking any laws. Walking while being black is not against any laws.

    In the years that Zimmerman was doing his thing, how many unfamiliar Caucasian young men did he call 911 on? If it is within the bounds of reason to presume that unfamiliar African-Americans made Zimmerman feel defensive or confrontational, and whites did not, that racial profiling is in effect. What seals the deal is the racial epithet he uttered in his pursuit of Martin, after being told by the 911 operator not to pursue?

  • -2

    yabits

    According to your logic, if a black person uses the N-word, he is racist against blacks automatically.

    Yours is false logic. The only way it works is if the black person uses the word the way a non-black would use it, which is absurd. If a person is in the same group to whom the word applies, it is self-deprecating, not a put-down of others.

  • 2

    sailwind

    In the years that Zimmerman was doing his thing, how many unfamiliar Caucasian young men did he call 911 on?

    I'm not sure Yabits, it would be interesting if you actually had that information to put out.

  • 1

    sailwind

    What seals the deal is the racial epithet he uttered in his pursuit of Martin,

    You deal isn't sealed by a long shot Yabits.

    Heated debate has erupted over whether Zimmerman used a racial slur during the 911 call, a recording of which was released this week.

    "We didn't hear it. However, I am not sure what was said," said Sgt. David Morgenstern of the Sanford Police Department.

    "I have listened to the tapes, and I have not heard them use a racial slur," concurred City Manager Norton Bonaparte.

    A top CNN audio engineer enhanced the sound of the 911 call, and several members of CNN's editorial staff repeatedly reviewed the tape but could reach no consensus on whether Zimmerman used a racial slur.

    http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/justice/florida-teen-zimmerman/?hpt=us_c2

  • -2

    gyouza

    @seavey

    Being told NOT to follow, not to pursue should have been enough to avoid this tragedy, right? Add to that Z was carrying a gun when neighbourhood rules forbid it should be enough to dispel any doubt as to who is right or wrong, there is no 70~100% scenario here - these are known facts. A youth is dead because someone overstepped the mark - that should result in punishment.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Seavey: "We have two phases here 1) how it all started and 2) the confrontation. Zimmerman is completely at fault for phase 1. But like it or not, fault for phase 2 is partially inconclusive at this point, given what information I have, and more importantly, don't have."

    Phase 2 in your argument is 100% the result of phase 1, and therefore Zimmerman is 100% to blame, not your 70% (wherever that came from). On that note, it's interesting that you refuse to take a stance on the issue, and say you cannot do so because you don't know the facts, but are willing to assign 30% of the blame on the young man murdered without knowing.

  • -1

    Ch1n4Sailor

    Common Sense People... Didn't your parent ever teach to walk away from trouble...?

    I suspect that if someone had impressed upon young "Trayvon Martin" he would probably still be alive today.

    Why did he confront a crazy guy...?

    I was born and raised in Detroit, and the very first thing your parents teach, besides not making eye contact or staring is always WALK AWAY FROM TROUBLE!

    Yes, Zimmermin is Nut Case, who shouldn't have been allowed to carry a gun in the first place!

    I suspect young "Trayvon Martin" is pushing 6-feet tall and over 180lbs...? Please tell me I'm wrong..? He was a football player, 17 years old... I suspect he wasn't small guy, but please, if you know for a fact that, Trayvon is only 5'2" and 140lbs, please enlighten me!

    I suspect Trayvon was bigger than this Zimmermin nut-case, so he confronted a crazy guy... Gee that's smart...! Common Sense! Please tell me Trayvon was shot in the back...! Please tell me that... Because he wasn't! That means he was confronting a crazy guy... NOT A WISE THING TO DO...

    And All you people that are outraged about this, ""Where's was all this outrage when Bush Invaded Iraq and killed an Estimated 500,000 innocent Iraqi people... Where's That Outrage...?**

    Oh, Because they're NOT American huh...? You Bunch of Hypocrites!

    And Where's All the Outrage over that Army Sergeant Kill 17 innocent People, Including 9 innocent Children, who were sleeping in their beds... Where's All this Outrage...? I don't remember seeing Al Sharpton Marching with 10,000 people...? Oh~ They're NOT American either....

    You bunch of Hypocrites!

    Common Sense needs to be taught, YOU WALK AWAY FROM TROUBLE and Live!

  • -3

    Lieberman2012

    Where's was all this outrage when Bush Invaded Iraq and killed an Estimated 500,000 innocent Iraqi people...

    Nowhere to be found, since Bush did not personally invade Iraq, nowhere near 500 000 died and the vast majority of Iraqis who did perish died at the hands of co-religionists who invaded Iraq from other Mohammedan nations, funded by same.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    Lieberman: "Nowhere to be found, since Bush did not personally invade Iraq, nowhere near 500 000 died and the vast majority of Iraqis who did perish died at the hands of co-religionists who invaded Iraq from other Mohammedan nations, funded by same."

    Care to comment on the thread? Or if you insist on taking a thread about this killing to the war in Iraq, care to back up your statements with facts and stats?

    You don't mention a SINGLE thing about Zimmerman of Trayvon, the murderer and the murdered, in your post.

  • 1

    sailwind

    If it is within the bounds of reason to presume that unfamiliar African-Americans made Zimmerman feel defensive or confrontational, and whites did not, that racial profiling is in effect.

    Yabits,

    I have the answer to that question. The 911 call itself.

    Dispatcher: "Do you need police, fire or medical?"

    Zimmerman: "We had some break-ins in our neighborhood ... and there is a real suspicious guy. ... This guy looks like he's up to no good, he's on drugs or something. It's raining, and he's walking around looking about. "

    Dispatcher: "Is this guy white, black, Hispanic?"

    Zimmerman: "He looks black."

    Yabits, even Zimmerman didn't really know if he really was black at that time, he actually had to confirm it as Trayvon came closer to his view.

    Dispatcher: "Did you see what he's wearing?"

    Zimmerman: "A dark hoodie, grey hoodie, jeans or sweatpants or white shoes. He's walking around staring at the houses. Now he's just staring at me."

    Dispatcher: "Location?"

    Zimmerman: "He's near the clubhouse right now. Now he's coming towards me. He has his hands in his waistband. He is a black male.

    I don't racism as a factor here at all based on the facts. What I do see and believe after looking into the facts away from the media bias and noise narrative of "racism" is that Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged because 9/11 told him not to get out and follow Trayvon. It was him that had set up the confrontation. I also believe that a Florida Grand Jury will also come to that conclusion and that Zimmerman will be charged with a crime and instead of walking free it will be let up to a Jury decide his fate.

  • -3

    Seavey

    On that note, it's interesting that you refuse to take a stance on the issue, and say you cannot do so because you don't know the facts, but are willing to assign 30% of the blame on the young man murdered without knowing.

    The 30 percent in indeterminable. I never said Martin was for sure to blame for it or not. I simply don't know. I need more details.

  • -3

    Seavey

    Phase 2 in your argument is 100% the result of phase 1, and therefore Zimmerman is 100% to blame,

    Nonsense. Despite the happenings of phase 1, Martin still may have made choices that affected the outcome of phase 2. I said "may", because I don't know.

  • -2

    smithinjapan

    Seavey: You really have no sense of cause and effect, do you?

    "The 30 percent in indeterminable. I never said Martin was for sure to blame for it or not. I simply don't know. I need more details."

    Yup, and yet you stated clearly Zimmerman is only 70% to blame for his actions, right? That means someone else is to blame for 30%. So since you stated that, who is to blame for the 30%... I mean, since you are so sure and yet unsure at the same time?

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    Gun sales have reached record numbers in the last few years. A headline today says the nation's number four maker is completely sold out.

    From Zero Hedge:

    "Sturm, Ruger (the 4th largest gun-maker in the US) who after receiving orders for over one million units in Q1 has temporarily suspended the acceptance of new orders."

    Heh. In that regard I think we can say Obama has been quite the, uh, community organizer, no?

    Strangely - - if you are an authoritarian control freak "progressive" who wants all guns banned - - gun crime has not risen in proportion with the massive arming (re-arming ? ) of suburban America. A look at who is buying is also quite intriguing: women.

    MSNBC :

    "According to the National Shooting Sports Foundation, gun-store owners have reported a 73 percent increase in female customers in recent years, and the number of women buying guns for specifically for personal defense has climbed by more than 83 percent."

    I do not own a gun but I am all for women empowering themselves in this way.

  • 0

    Seavey

    Yup, and yet you stated clearly Zimmerman is only 70% to blame for his actions, right?

    (facepalm) My post is right THERE dude! I said from 70 to 100 depending on circumstances!

    Thus, Zimmerman is responsible for the death anywhere from 70 to 100 percent.

  • -2

    yabits

    Heated debate has erupted over whether Zimmerman used a racial slur during the 911 call, a recording of which was released this week.

    LOL! Naturally, the incompetent Sanford city employees aren't going to hear anything.

    Anyone who has actually listened to the recording has no doubt as to what the first of the two words uttered by Zimmerman. The distinct "K" sound in the middle gives it away easily, as does the "ing" at the end. I am somewhat mystified that there should be any controversy about the second word, as another "K" sound is clearly heard, followed by a long "O" and short, plural ending.

    The fact is that two words were uttered by Zimmerman, and, outside of what is obvious to most listeners, nobody has offered anything remotely plausible as to what they might have been otherwise.

    Note that this is after Zimmerman had identified the suspect as a young black male.

  • -2

    yabits

    I'm not sure Yabits, it would be interesting if you actually had that information to put out.

    Within the past two years, all of Zimmerman's calls to 911 relating to suspicious characters were about people of color.

    Yabits, even Zimmerman didn't really know if he really was black at that time, he actually had to confirm it as Trayvon came closer to his view.

    While Zimmerman had to confirm that Trayvon was African-American as opposed to Hispanic, he strongly suspected he was "suspicious" based on his skin color. "These **holes always get away," he was heard to exclaim after the identification was made. To Zimmerman, Trayvon was just another in a series of "suspicious" characters -- "these ***holes -- all of them black, who were the target of Zimmerman's ire. He was going to make sure that "this one" would not get away, and he succeeded.

  • 0

    sailwind

    Within the past two years, all of Zimmerman's calls to 911 relating to suspicious characters were about people of color.

    Post the facts of this claim so that I may verify.

  • -2

    yabits

    Trayvon had been recently suspended from school for a couple of weeks in the South Florida Miami area. His mother then sent him to his Father's house in Sanford in Northern Florida. I do hate guessing, but my gut feeling is since they are good parents and involved with him that he sent there to have his Father's discipline in setting Trayvon back on the straight and narrow after the suspension

    It is worth noting that Trayvon's suspension came not as a result of any altercations or fights with other students, or any problem with teachers. He was suspended for being tardy -- something that could have been caused by many factors. The kid never got into any kind of real trouble and never, ever was known to pick a fight. His first instinct, as he showed with Zimmerman, is to try to "flee" to avoid confrontation.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Anyone who has actually listened to the recording has no doubt as to what the first of the two words uttered by Zimmerman. The distinct "K" sound in the middle gives it away easily, as does the "ing" at the end. I am somewhat mystified that there should be any controversy about the second word, as another "K" sound is clearly heard, followed y a long "O" and short, plural ending.

    As in maybe Effin..Crist??

  • -1

    sailwind

    It is worth noting that Trayvon's suspension came not as a result of any altercations or fights with other students,

    I it is worth noting that his father was raising him as a good man.

    Martin's parents kept a close eye on him, but they didn't have to be too strict, since he stayed out of trouble, Collins said. However, he had recently been suspended from school for five days for tardiness, his English teacher, Michelle Kypriss, told the Orlando Sentinel. School officials did not respond to a request for comment.

    Martin's father was not happy and grounded the teen for the duration of the suspension.

    http://www2.tbo.com/news/breaking-news/2012/mar/24/trayvon-martins-friends-say-he-never-picked-a-figh-ar-384606/

  • 0

    UncleBudah

    Nobody here has lived in Florida, if you had, you can talk, I do not support him killing the kid, or anyone, but if there is "Crime Watch " in the community , its because there is something wrong,
    sorry for the kid , but, during late hours, Parents are responsible for their kids, they should be home, during late hours in a crime area comunity!!!

  • 0

    gyouza

    @unclebudah

    , they should be home, during late hours

    7pm = late for a 17 year old?

  • -2

    lostrune2

    Even the original sponsor of the Florida law doesn't think it should apply to Zimmerman's case if indeed Zimmerman was proven to have pursued the teen.

  • -2

    Patrick Hagger

    Zimmerman is wrong but everyone has to allow justice to take place. The wheels of justice might be slow but they are turning, emotions run high in profile cases, wait for all the evidence to be released at the approciate time to prevent an injustice from occurring by violation of the rights of anyone involved. The investigation by police should determine the means in which the bullet enterred Martin, if he is shoot at a distance the police cover up story will not stand up to anyones investigation. Zimmerman will face a death penalty trial in Florida, justice will be served.

  • -1

    Wolfpack

    I second Partrick Hagger's sentiments. There are few "facts" that have been determined and made public at this point. I try to remember the Duke LaCross case whenever I hear of cases like this. Like now, the media hyped the race angle and many black politicians and organizations attempted to use the race component to raise their own profiles. The one very important fact that was reported wrongly at first was that Zimmerman is white. We now know that this is false - he is a Spanish speaking Hispanic. Just this simple mistake on the part of the media has done much to increase hostility and animosity around this case.

    If others want to go ahead and make their own assumptions about this case then go right ahead. I think I will wait for more of the facts to come out.

  • -2

    yabits

    There are few "facts" that have been determined and made public at this point. I try to remember the Duke LaCross case whenever I hear of cases like this.

    Let's try to be intelligent about this, to whatever extent possible. The "crime" of alleged sexual assault in the Duke case was completely dependent on the word of the person claiming assault. Any intelligent person should be able to see the tremendous difference that the physical evidence of a dead Trayvon Martin brings to this case.

    Like now, the media hyped the race angle and many black politicians and organizations attempted to use the race component to raise their own profiles

    I understand: You generally hate the kind of black people who could express outrage that a fine, upstanding young black man could be gunned down in this fashion. You believe that their outrage could not be genuine, but they are simply using this tragic event to "raise their own profiles." That's a lot of hate you're carrying around there Wolfpack.

    The one very important fact that was reported wrongly at first was that Zimmerman is white. We now know that this is false - he is a Spanish speaking Hispanic.

    Zimmerman's ethnic background is irrelevant other than the fact that he did not consider himself to be a black person. Therefore he could refer to blacks and treat them as a group that was different or inferior to whatever he considered himself to be. A young black walking in his neighborhood immediately raised his suspicions. And that is racism.

  • 0

    Ch1n4Sailor

    A witness who saw Martin on top of Zimmerman told ABC News the same: the pleas for help were Zimmerman's.

    http://abcnews.go.com/US/abc-exclusive-friend-confirms-howls-911-tapes-belong/story?id=15994640

  • -1

    Kamala Brown-Sparks

    It's so funny to read these comments, and I don't mean that it's humorous. The first comment mentioins that Ziimmerman is Hispanic, so there can't be any racism present.Guess you've never seen a person under the 6 point star (BGD's, Folks, Cripts) and a Latin King....plus, last time that I checked (all of my Spanish classes and friends), Zimmerman wasn't a Latino/a Sir name....so as we say, somebody was sneaking out to the back house (this refers to the master sleeping w/a slave). Secondly, I've read the transcipts of the 911 call...umm, last time I checked when someone said you don't need to follow him, that meant the police don't want you chasing after someone. Oh, and calling someone a COON IS A RACIST STATEMENT, it refers to the white people chasing the black person up a tree, like when you go coon hunting w/dogs...the black person was usually lynched. From my preceding statement, you might assume that I don't like people who are white or believe that everyone is racist towards Black and African Americans (and yes, these are two distinct groups)......well, you better tell that to my husband (a pale redhead). Next, we DON'T have an African American president....the term African American means someone whose ancestors were brought over from Africa as a slave.....and his mother is white. Unfortunately, there are way too many racist Americans and I believe that racism is much worse since the president was elected; perhaps it's not worse, but the racist are much more open with their opinions and it has become much more acceptable to act on said beliefs. BUT NONE OF THESE THINGS ARE ULTIMATELY DECIDING FACTORS IN MY BELIEF THAT ZIMMERMAN SHOULD BE ARRESTED: The police told him DO NOT CHASE HIM.......it's NOT self defense if you chase someone down.

  • 0

    Wolfpack

    Let's try to be intelligent about this, to whatever extent possible.

    Absolutely, let's not wait for all of the facts and just take those tidbits of information that fit how we want to see the case and run with that - now that's intelligent.

    You believe that their outrage could not be genuine, but they are simply using this tragic event to "raise their own profiles." That's a lot of hate you're carrying around there Wolfpack.

    So you don't want the guy to even be able to defend himself and perhaps prove that the outrage they profess is unfounded? Looks like you care carrying the hatred - and the desire for vengeance. I can understand the uproar from the fact that they guy wasn't arrested. I don't understand the rush to make this a hate crime (at least when it was thought that Zimmerman was White) and I don't understand the media's rush to get out sensationalized "facts" that have turned out to be untrue.

    A young black walking in his neighborhood immediately raised his suspicions. And that is racism.

    If it is proven that Zimmerman was trailing the young man just because he was Black, then I would agree with you. However, even if he is a racist and "profiled" Martin, it is possible that his actions were still in self-defense. The intelligent thing to do is to wait until more facts become clear before convicting the guy as a racist murderer. At least, that's what an intelligent person would do.

  • -1

    yabits

    Witnesses claim the cries for help came from Martin, not Zimmerman. They were the screams of a very young person.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1cWwUAbbWnk

    The cries stopped the instant after the gunshot. If Zimmerman was crying out while he had a gun in his hand and was shooting -- which doesn't make a lot of sense -- the tapes would have picked up at least some yelling or crying after the shot.

  • 0

    yabits

    Absolutely, let's not wait for all of the facts and just take those tidbits of information that fit how we want to see the case and run with that - now that's intelligent.

    No. It's dumb and disingenuous to claim you are waiting for the facts to come in and then claim the case reminds of the Duke lacrosse incident.

    Looks like you care carrying the hatred - and the desire for vengeance.

    Wrong again. You're on a real roll there.

    I can understand the uproar from the fact that they guy wasn't arrested.

    That's right. The police should have taken the guy in. The shooting happened in late February and the outrage has only really ignited over the past two weeks -- mainly against a criminally incompetent police department protecting someone who took the life of a guy who had broken no laws whatsoever. There was no reason whatsoever for Martin to have been confronted by Zimmerman -- who had no authority to act as a police officer. Zimmerman -- who has a record of physical assault against others.

    However, even if he is a racist and "profiled" Martin, it is possible that his actions were still in self-defense.

    As soon as Zimmerman got out of his car with the sole purpose of pursuing Martin -- who was just trying to get home -- it is actually Martin who could more reasonably claim self-defense. Zimmerman didn't identify himself. To Martin, he was a threatening stranger wanting God only knows what.

    And so here is what you are saying, in essence: That an armed person can go after a much younger and smaller unarmed person and -- here is where the Florida law applies -- cause that person to feel threatened and, if they should try to defend themselves, blow them away and claim self-defense also.

    That is what the police should have picked up on and should have taken Zimmerman into custody -- especially after having been directed by the 911/police NOT to pursue Martin. There was no reason whatsoever for Zimmerman to give chase and put himself into a potentially threatening situation. Not having any authority or identifying himself, Martin has far greater standing at claiming self-defense.

    That is what most of the outrage is about: civil authorities completely accepting only one side of the story without any investigation whatsoever. Zimmerman should have been immediately taken in and been photographed and his wounds and clothing carefully examined to determine if the evidence fits his story. Was there evidence of any of Zimmerman's blood on the hands or clothing of Martin? Those are the details and facts that should have been recorded so that the truth of what happened can be determined.

  • 1

    yabits

    The real racism in this case applies to the police department of Sanford:

    It was racist for them to believe that Trayvon Martin -- who was a citizen peaceably walking home and had broken no laws -- had no right or claim to self-defense against a strange man who pursued him and caused him to feel threatened.

  • -2

    Lieberman2012

    yabits

    As soon as Zimmerman got out of his car with the sole purpose of pursuing Martin -- who was just trying to get home -- it is actually Martin who could more reasonably claim self-defense. Zimmerman didn't identify himself. To Martin, he was a threatening stranger wanting God only knows what.

    Sorry, but how do you kow this is the actual record of events? The whole affair is ugly and tragic but rushing to condemn the shooter before all the facts are available will not help in this case or in the future.

    The real racism in this case applies to the police department of Sanford:

    But the cops are most likely unionized. They are your union brothers.The almighty State will stand behind them, like it did up north when Wisconsin cops, negligent in protecting the state capitol buildings against unions thugs and Occupy rabble who trashed the place, cost WI taxpayers millions of dollars.

    You know nothing will come of it, and when its Wisconsin or elsewhere you silently support such obstructions to justice you demand in this case.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Kamala Brown Sparks

    " Zimmerman wasn't a Latino/a Sir name [it's * surname *, for those of you who have been failed by our shameful public schools] ....so as we say, somebody was sneaking out to the back house (this refers to the master sleeping w/a slave). "

    Moderator - Why is racist, repugnant garbage like this allowed to stand ?

    Zimmerman's father is "white," his mother is Peruvian.

  • -4

    Seavey

    They were the screams of a very young person.

    In fact, to quote the witness, who only heard the screams from inside, and did not look outside, they were from a "little boy". Since neither were little boys, it seems odd to me.

    I listened to one of the 911 calls here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc&feature=watch_response but there is so much distortion caused by the walls, the sound going through a telephone, etc. that I would not even make a wild guess who was yelling. I can't even make out the word "help". I have to take the witnesses word for it.

    If Zimmerman was crying out while he had a gun in his hand and was shooting -- which doesn't make a lot of sense

    It makes perfect sense that a person being attacked would cry for help, even if he had a gun. That is because a gun is no guarantee of security, and also because the person with the gun may not want to shoot. The gun might not even be drawn yet.

    Your description of "while he was shooting" is patently false. Only one shot was fired. There was no period of time to justify the use of the word "while". It only took an instant to fire a shot. Its preposterous to try and explain what was happening in that split second.

    It is entirely possible that Zimmerman was being attacked and losing to Martin, was yelling for help and not wanting to use his gun, then finally pulled out his gun and shot Martin.

    -- the tapes would have picked up at least some yelling or crying after the shot.

    Are you listening to a different recording than me? All I heard were the loudest shouts. There is no reason any would yell the same after the shot as before. The shot ended it all.

    Its a natural reaction to go silent after the loud bang of a gunshot and the realization that one has shot another. Nothing odd about that at all. Its called shock.

    Your witness believes it was Martin, but it seems she knew neither person. A friend of Zimmerman claims it was Zimmerman yelling, despite all that distortion. I find that to be inconclusive of who was yelling.

    I am sorry to say this Yabits, but mostly what I see is bias, but from most people involved and not just you. When that which is inconclusive is declared solid evidence, well, that indicates bias.

    And as I have already stated, I am not on Zimmerman's side at all. He is a manslaughterer at least. I just don't see any solid evidence to accuse him of murder.

  • -4

    Lieberman2012

    Why was the victim on suspension from school?

  • 0

    Faderkinta

    Some have made the comment on why did Trayvon confront him. I have taken it you have never ever really been confronted before. First of all having someone follow you is panic building enough. If what the girl he was reportedly talking on the phone said is true, I have heard my own self saying this. Don't run, you don't know what you are running into plus that leads to people chasing. Walk faster, yes that is a good start. I don't know who is really wrong I am not the law I'll wait for it but I can understand why blacks don't trust the police. If you kill someone you should expect some consequences.

    The problem with this is case is that too many people are too close to victim. The amount of times this has happen to me as a kid with my little sister in tote shocks my friends. Teenagers by the very notion of being teens are unpredicable, wouldn't follow one at all. Why did Zimmerman do it I have no clue. He did his job by calling it in. The law that many people are talking about doesn't apply to this situation. Zimmerman only has the right to defend himself on his side. The right not to retreat however applies when you are in your house according to even Zimmerman's lawyer.

    If you are using racist language and holding a gun you should rethink that gun. A name rarely is about a race Zimmerman is the name of kin of mine and we aren't white. Yes, Hispanics can be just a racist as anybody else. Trust me, in Chicago the color line where I lived change quite a few times. Racism was bad when the area was white, horrible when it became hispanic, and truely life threatening when it became Arabic. Racism is around even in the black community we are just stupid humans after all.

  • 2

    smithinjapan

    Lieberman: "Why was the victim on suspension from school?"

    Why does it matter would be the better question. Still trying to justify Zimmerman's actions, though, I see. The best question yet, though, is why did Zimmerman follow Trayvon when he was specifically told, by police, that he should not.

  • 2

    Seavey

    Why does it matter would be the better question.

    Some people think cases between two people can be decided on issues of character.

    But it would give creedence to the claim he was inspecting houses, if he were say, caught stealing from someone's locker at school.

    I am in awe that the school suspended him just for tardiness. And that decision indirectly led to his death. I wonder what the people who made that decision are thinking about their suspension of the late Trayvon Martin now?

  • -3

    sailwind

    The fact is that two words were uttered by Zimmerman, and, outside of what is obvious to most listeners, nobody has offered anything remotely plausible as to what they might have been otherwise.

    Note that this is after Zimmerman had identified the suspect as a young black male.

    Yabits,

    Which really makes no sense in the flow of the 9/11 call, I've also read the transcript and heard the tape. You are correct that he had already identified him as a young black male. In fact he had to asked by the 9/11 operator first and prompted by the 9/11 about Trayvon's ethnic background. A person that is actually a racist would not have to prompted with that question, it would have been the first thing he would have said. Secondly given the flow of the 9/11 call and the fact that he already identified him as black it makes no sense that he would then use a racial slur later in the call. I can't tell what he said or mumbled in those two words and neither can anyone else including independent analysis outside of the Sanford Police Department. It does sound like (polite version of the the "f" word) "Effin' in the first word and a hard C sound in the second. To me it sounded much like a mumbled expletive and if you can actually be objective within the 9/11 call and not from a racial bias perspective it may have well been "effin Christ" a common expletive and according to the Urban dictionary: A multi-purpose phrase commonly used as an expression of anger, pain, frustration, wonderment or disbelief. I've used it myself on occasion and it actually fits the flow of the 9/11 call better than his going back after already noting that Trayvon was black in the first place on the call.

  • -1

    Seavey

    A person that is actually a racist would not have to prompted with that question, it would have been the first thing he would have said.

    Racist might be stupid, but that is not to say they are all so completely stupid that racism is the first thing out of the mouths. I cannot believe, that you believe a racist can be so easily identified.

    That said, I doubt he is a racist.

    I listened to the 911 tape, and I can't tell what he is saying. Sounds more like fkin cogs to me. Could have been fkin cops. No idea who or what it was directed at.

    Once again, I am amazed that people have made so much over one word. Doubly amazed, since I can't even make out wha the word is exactly!

  • -3

    sailwind

    Racist might be stupid, but that is not to say they are all so completely stupid that racism is the first thing out of the mouths. I cannot believe, that you believe a racist can be so easily identified.

    Actually Seavey,

    People that really are racists tend to think others hold their same views and tend to speak informally when they think they around people who share those views. Conjecture on my part I admit, but I've found that be more of the rule than exception in my life's experiences. The Sanford Police have arrested many Black youths and Zimmerman would have also reported many Black youths also to the police in the past. A racist thinking he was talking to a like minded organization wouldn't have to be prompted about Trayvon's race........The initial call would have been along the subtext and the lines of.......There is another Black crook is in the neighborhood come right away. Just my opinion on this.

  • -2

    Kamala Brown-Sparks

    Lieberman2012----Lol, I wasn't being racist I was stating a fact....I'm Louisiana Creole, my mom's maiden name is French...just like my white relatives who were the slave owners. If they acknowlegde that at some point their relative(s), who would've been the plantation owners, went to the slave quarters which were generally smaller shacks behind the MUCH BIGGER home of the master and his family.....then who are you to deny that it happenend? Sailwind----the phrase fing coon, is not a term of endearment regardless of the persons race

  • -1

    Kamala Brown-Sparks

    And really, I don't care if Zimmerman is a racist or loves Black/African Americans.....no child, regardless of race, should be chased and fatally shot because they're walking back home with a bag of Skittles and an iced tea.

  • 1

    yabits

    People that really are racists tend to think others hold their same views and tend to speak informally when they think they around people who share those views.

    I don't think you can categorize to include or exclude anyone from being in a category based on arbitrary tendencies.

    More importantly, people have at least two personalities -- the other one coming out when they are under stress. (See Afghanistan, Bales).

    Zimmerman did not know Martin, but he immediately classified him as a criminal. (When he said: "These ---holes always get away.") Get away with what? Walking home safely out of the rain? And just who are "these ---holes" and why was Martin lumped in with "them?"

    People that really are racists tend to...

    I believe that racists and alcoholics share some common traits about their sickness. Both are in total denial and want to develop a ton of rationalizing and defense mechanisms to protect them from the truth. They don't fool recovering alcoholics and recovering racists for a minute.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    Zimmerman's lawyer is saying that this is a case of "self-defense" and not a "stand your ground" or "castle law" legal defense.

    Both individuals had a right to be where they were. Both individuals had a right to ask the other any questions (unless they're going to start arresting every reporter who sticks a microphone in someone face). The 9-1-1 dispatchers are not police officers and disobeying or ignoring one is not illegal. Hoodies don't matter, candy and tea aren't important, an inaudible audio recording isn't admissable in court, color and race doesn't seem to an issue to Martin or Zimmerman. Someone started the pushing or punching. That was illegal.

    Sifting thru the BS out there is difficult but It appears that Martin broke Zimmerman's nose and knocked him to the ground. Zimmerman was calling out to his neighbors for help. His neighbors heard the calls for help but no one rushed to his aid. Zimmerman was on his own. Martin continued to attack Zimmerman and Zimmerman thought his life was in danger. Zimmerman shot Martin in self defense.

  • -1

    yabits

    Both individuals had a right to be where they were.

    Nobody has been able to prove to this point what right or authority Zimmerman had to pursue and threaten Trayvon Martin. Especially since the police department -- via 911 -- expressly told Zimmerman NOT to do so. The 911 dispatchers had more authority over the situation than any that could be claimed by Zimmerman. The killer wasn't employed by the police -- he was a private, self-appointed vigilante. And by pursuing Martin, he was taking the law into his own hands.

    Both individuals had a right to ask the other any questions (unless they're going to start arresting every reporter who sticks a microphone in someone face).

    Well, that certainly is a very stupid comparison. Do reporters stick guns in their pockets ready to shoot people if they don't respond to their questions properly or if they become irate?

    Sifting thru the BS out there is difficult but It appears that Martin broke Zimmerman's nose and knocked him to the ground.

    Well, you are doing a stellar job adding to the BS. 911 Dispatchers in many places work directly for and with the police. Zimmerman could have sustained his injuries through slipping and falling on the wet grass. Furthermore, the police should have been collecting as much physical evidence as possible at the time of the incident, but they did not. Did Zimmerman really have a broken nose that night? Was there any evidence on Trayvon's body that indicated he attacked Zimmerman?

    By pursuing and threatening Martin without making any attempt to identify himself -- especially since Zimmerman knew that he carried his weapon -- it is inconceivable how he could have let Martin gain an upper hand.

    All that aside, it is the police who are the most at fault here. The crucial evidence that could have have brought the truth of the even to light was not gathered. Why did the police make a snap judgment not to investigate the event as a possible manslaughter? The most obvious answer is the race of the victim.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Nobody has been able to prove to this point what right or authority Zimmerman had to pursue and threaten Trayvon Martin. Especially since the police department -- via 911 -- expressly told Zimmerman NOT to do so. The 911 dispatchers had more authority over the situation than any that could be claimed by Zimmerman. The killer wasn't employed by the police -- he was a private, self-appointed vigilante. And by pursuing Martin, he was taking the law into his own hands.

    Well, that certainly is a very stupid comparison. Do reporters stick guns in their pockets ready to shoot people if they don't respond to their questions properly or if they become irate?

    Hahahaha. Zimmerman was in his own neighborhood. What "authority" do you need to walk or drive in your own neighborhood?

    The neighborhood formed their own neighborhood watch association (that was not associated with the national Neighborhood Watch association). The neighbors might not know the identity of every neighborhood watch volunteer but they knew that they needed a neighborhood watch to help prevent crime.

    Working for or with a police department does NOT make someone a police officer. The 9-1-1 operator/dispatcher was not a police officer and could only suggest that Zimmerman not follow Martin. Zimmerman did nothing illegal by continuing to following/look for Martin.

    People are allowed to ask complete strangers why they are in their neighborhood. People are also allowed to ask complete strangers why they are following them. Asking questions is STILL not illegal.

    An eyewitness interviewed by police on the night of the shooting and interviewed by a local media outlet on Mar 15/16th (reported on the 16th) said Martin was hitting Zimmerman. The witness is afraid for their own safety and considering the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000+ bounty on Zimmerman, the lynch mob mentality of the people calling for Zimmerman's conviction regardless of the facts, and a man has been arrested for threatening the Police Chief, I wouldn't make a public statement either.

    It's not inconceivable to anyone who has not already made up their mind that Zimmerman is guilty, to see that Martin "could have" attacked Zimmerman before Zimmerman could draw his pistol. You see what you want to see.

    The media and bloggers are at fault for creating a racial situation that didn't exist. Zimmerman has several black family members, attends a mostly black church, and works with black people on a daily basis. None of them are saying that Zimmerman is racist. Only the lynch mob is saying that.

    The local police can only arrest someone who has actually violated city or State laws. Self-defense is not illegal in Florida. Zimmerman admitted he shot Martin after Martin attacked him. An eyewitness says Martin was attacking Zimmerman and that Zimmerman was laying on his back. No eyewitness says that Zimmerman began attacking Martin.

    Federal police are looking into the possibility of a "hate crime" or "civil rights violation". Maybe their technitions will be able to make sense of those inaudible noises on the cell phone/9-1-1 recording some claim is a racial slur?

  • -3

    yabits

    Zimmerman was in his own neighborhood. What "authority" do you need to walk or drive in your own neighborhood?

    You need a lot more authority than Zimmerman had to strap on a weapon and stalk or accost other neighbors who have every right walking on the sidewalks as you do. Gee, that was too simple.

    The neighbors might not know the identity of every neighborhood watch volunteer but they knew that they needed a neighborhood watch to help prevent crime.

    Irrelevant. Martin was not in the act of committing any crime. He was just walking back to his father's townhouse. As an American citizen, he has basic civil rights protecting him from any kind of force against his person by any kind of authority -- from the federal government on down to the neighborhood watch group. Even if the Sanford police were there to stop him from walking, the Fifth Amendment ensures his right not to answer any questions they might post to him.

    Working for or with a police department does NOT make someone a police officer.

    Working for a neighborhood watch group does not give someone the right to carry lethal firepower and otherwise accost other neighbors who aren't involved in the commission of a crime. As such, the professionals at the 911 board were much better qualified to give directions in the situation than Zimmerman was. This is obvious when the results of the evening prove.

    People are allowed to ask complete strangers why they are in their neighborhood.

    You are not allowed to stalk and pursue other people in the neighborhood in order to instigate a confrontation with them. Americans have the right to be secure in their persons on public streets and sidewalks from such threats.

    An eyewitness interviewed by police on the night of the shooting and interviewed by a local media outlet on Mar 15/16th (reported on the 16th) said Martin was hitting Zimmerman. The witness is afraid for their own safety and considering the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000+ bounty on Zimmerman...

    And you are the same person who claimed that the entire housing meltdown was engineered by Barney Frank -- despite a Republican White House and Congress. When asked how he could manage that, you declared, "Maybe when Barney Frank's boyfriend was running a prostitution ring out of Barney's home, he came across information that would later insure the silence of his fellow representatives?"

    Not to be off topic, but readers should understand how over-the-edge from basic reasoning your posts are.

    Zimmerman has several black family members, attends a mostly black church

    Unverified and irrelevant.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - You need a lot more authority than Zimmerman had to strap on a weapon and stalk or accost other neighbors who have every right walking on the sidewalks as you do. Gee, that was too simple.

    Interesting diversionary tactic but what "authority" do you need to walk or drive in your own neighborhood? Zimmerman was well within his rights to walk around in his own neighborhood, contrary to what the lynch mobs imagine.

    As far as carrying a firearm in Florida is concerned, a neighborhood watch has no authority to allow anyone to carry firearms. Zimmerman has never been convicted of a felony, had no history of mental illness, he had passed the National (federal) firearms background check, and completed the application process for a license to carry a concealed weapon IN FLORIDA. Zimmerman is recognized by State and local police as someone who can carry a concealed firearm while walking in his own neighborhood. Zimmerman broke no laws by carrying a firearm while walking in his own neighborhood, contrary to what the lynch mob mentality thinks.

    Zimmerman and Martin had the same right a reporter has to ask people questions in public. Zimmerman and Martin could chose to walk away or ignore the questioner or answer the question or ask a question of their own. Those are all viable and legal options. Grabbing or punching someone is not a legal option.

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    Seavey: "Some people think cases between two people can be decided on issues of character."

    Agreed -- it's silly. I mean if Lieberman wants to suggest that Trayvon might be guilty because he was suspended from school he could say WHY he was suspended, or even better yet, he might want to mention Zimmerman's arrest in 2005 for assaulting a police officer. :)

  • -1

    yabits

    Interesting diversionary tactic but what "authority" do you need to walk or drive in your own neighborhood?

    If you don't need any authority, then you are admitting that Trayvon Martin was completely in the right to walk in his own neighborhood with the freedom from being accosted or stalked by anyone.

    Zimmerman was not "just walking." If he had been, he would not have called 911 as he had many times before. (He has a record of physically accosting other people, including law enforcement officers.) No, Zimmerman was walking/running with the intent and purpose of trapping and accosting a completely innocent citizen. Without identifying himself as a neighborhood watch, Zimmerman's actions caused Martin to fear for his own safety.

    This incident reflects on the criminal negligence of the Sanford police -- who should have been collecting every bit of physical evidence and taking Zimmerman into custody until his version of the event could be completely corroborated.

    Many people want to focus on complete irrelevancies as Zimmerman's relatives and ethnic makeup of his church. The real focus needs to be on the corrupt and incompetent police department.

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    arrestpaul: "Grabbing or punching someone is not a legal option."

    But evidently shooting them is.

  • -1

    Ch1n4Sailor

    I like reading these comments... I really have to laugh... Some REAL Rocket Scientist Posting comments here... LOL... Everyone's calling for Zimmermin to be lynched.

    You would have to be out of your mind to think that the local Police Department wouldn't have arrested Zimmermin on the spot, had it been a simple instance of him shooting an unarmed teen...

    Why... Because now facts are coming out that there was a witness who saw Martin, on top of Zimmermin. And it was Zimmermin Crying out for help.

    Oh, but that doesn't support your white-supremacist, (who happens to be Hispanic...) killing an unarmed Innocent Teen in cold blood Theory. It just CANNOT BE any other way, it has to be, that Martin Is 100% Innocent, and OUR Baby, would NEVER Attack anyone...

    FACT: Witness Signed a Sworn Statement to police, stating he saw Martin on top of Zimmermin.

    FACT: Witness Stated The cries for help, were those of Zimmermin.

    FACT: Zimmermin received a broken nose, and a head injury.

    These were from the Witness who signed a sworn statement, NOT somebody, that heard a Youtube video and said, "Oh, that has to be Tryvon's voice!"

  • 2

    Berryblue

    I am puzzled as to why this article does not mention the witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, pounding him as Zimmerman was calling for help. This article gave me the impression that Zimmerman just went up to Martin and shot him. Its almost as if AFP wants racial tensions to escalate.

  • 0

    Ben Jack

    That is a huge allegation. Where did you see that witnesses said that? You should be contacting the rally groups about this. I am sure they would want to know.

  • -2

    Dennis Bauer

    this makes me remember of south park "it's coming right for us" The bottom line is that Zimerman shot an unarmed kid, he should be tried for that, or has tea become a lethal weapon?

  • 1

    Berryblue

    BJ,

    I saw it on TV news, I assume it was a local station; a reporter talking with the witness (John). I also read something in the Guardian mentioning these things.

    Other witnesses heard cries for help, but assumed it was Martin because the cries stopped after the shot, which also happened to be when the pounding stopped.

    When police arrived, Zimmerman had a bleeding nose and head injury.

    Elsewhere, I read that Zimmerman was walking back to his truck when Martin attacked him. Is this true?

    I find that different reports leave very different impressions. I would like to know what really happened and why some reports omit some very important details.

  • -4

    smithinjapan

    BerryBlue: "Other witnesses heard cries for help, but assumed it was Martin because the cries stopped after the shot, which also happened to be when the pounding stopped."

    Hey, quick question... let's assume these things you heard (you said you claim it was on a local TV news station, but can you back it up?) are true. Did Trayvon also force Zimmerman to follow him against police wishes? Sorry, but if the man followed and confronted the guy for carrying some skittles then Trayvon was in his right, under Florida law, to react. But of course you still have to prove the murdered guy actually DID assault Zimmerman, who is now crying, in hiding, and begging people he knows to stick up for him. Fortunately those people are not morons and see the dangers of sticking up for such a monster.

  • 0

    Ben Jack

    then Trayvon was in his right, under Florida law, to react.

    That is actually a very interesting point. Then, under Florida law, it seems the challenge would be to show which person was actually on the defensive. The police telling Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon is certainly an important point and the one that makes application of the defense law on his behalf seem more difficult.

  • 2

    Berryblue

    Hey, quick question... let's assume these things you heard (you said you claim it was on a local TV news station, but can you back it up?) are true.

    Sorry, I did not bookmark it. It was a video of a news report. The reporter was at the scene, he talked to Martin's parents and he talked to an eyewitness called John. John saw Zimmerman crying for help while Martin was on top and pounding him (Zimmerman was not hiding). Maybe I used a link from another poster.

    And if you check out The Guardian, it gives details of the communications with police, and I believe it does mention in one of their articles that Zimmerman was walking back to his truck when Martin attacked him.

    One could, and maybe should, fault Zimmerman for getting himself in that position. But I am pretty sure that if I was in a situation where I have this big guy (Martin was at least 6 feet tall) on top of me and continually pounding me in the face and nobody responded to my cries for help and I was carrying a gun, I would probably shoot the guy, regardless of his color or his age.

  • -1

    Tim Wigmore

    I love that several of you people are jumping on the anti-gun bandwagon. Things said like the NRA is a cancer blah blah. Let's see...

    The NRA is all about PROTECTING OUR 2nd Amendment RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS! Hello! This is our right, and yet like so many of our other rights, people are trying to take it away. The liberals are the real cancer to the US. At least the NRA keeps up with it's programs, unlike the liberals. The NRA helps laws get put into place to PROTECT people and they want people to use firearms safely. They teach people about locking them up, being responsible, etc. Someone out there will ALWAYS be irresponsible or stupid. That isn't the NRA's fault. Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. So yes, children are killed every day by guns. So is it the guns fault? No, it's the people who owned the guns that should be held responsible. They obviously didn't take enough precautions,.or in a very few cases accidents just happen. How come I don't see anyone talking about the tens of thousands of lives that have been saved thanks to people owning guns? Several Weeks ago in Wyoming or maybe it was Montana. 2 hispanic males broke into a home where a 12yr old girl was at home alone as her father had gone to the store. Her father had a 12 gauge shotgun in his bedroom. She shot and killed both men as they were coming up the stairs. They were armed it turns out, with knives. They were linked to other break-ins and one of those a young girl was raped. BUT you'll probably not see that on the national news,.because it's a case that worked to the good. Zimmerman is 100 percent guilty, and should be charged with murder. He followed Martin after he was told not to, and against the NW guidelines, AND he was armed against the guidelines. He basically provoked the incident. Period. You all can try and make it about racism, or hate Crime or whatever,.and just stir the $h17 pot more, but don't make it about gun control.

    P.S. Sorry for any bad punctuation or misspelled words, using this phone sucks sometimes.

  • -3

    smithinjapan

    Tim: "I love that several of you people are jumping on the anti-gun bandwagon."

    I love that you are talking about the thread at hand. Thank you.

    "That isn't the NRA's fault. Guns don't kill people, PEOPLE kill people. So yes, children are killed every day by guns. So is it the guns fault? No, it's the people who owned the guns that should be held responsible."

    Absolutely, and since you brought up the topic, no one should be allowed guns, thus preventing many, many, many, many deaths annually in the good old, darn tootin', gun totin' USA. But let me guess... you believe a person COULD mow through a crowd with a burdock root same as they could if there were no simple access to guns?

    "Several Weeks ago in Wyoming or maybe it was Montana. 2 hispanic males broke into a home where a 12yr old girl was at home alone as her father had gone to the store. Her father had a 12 gauge shotgun in his bedroom. She shot and killed both men as they were coming up the stairs. They were armed it turns out, with knives. They were linked to other break-ins and one of those a young girl was raped. BUT you'll probably not see that on the national news,.because it's a case that worked to the good."

    Or it's a case that you cannot even remember correctly where and when it happened. Either way, even if it's actually so, stand it up to the THOUSANDS of gun related deaths where it is NOT 'for the good'.

    "He basically provoked the incident. Period. You all can try and make it about racism, or hate Crime or whatever,.and just stir the $h17 pot more, but don't make it about gun control."

    YOU made it about gun control, other people rightly brought in the fact that it was the NRA (what does that stand for again?) that made the current 'stand your ground' laws. And guess what you probably want to carry when 'standing your ground' against a person you follow against police instruction, then provoke. My guess is you're not thinking 'trident' or 'toaster oven', but some very, very easily accessible to most people, even in this case a man who had previously assaulted police.

  • -2

    smithinjapan

    Tim: Meant to add; let's say I'm behind you in line for the register at a local supermarket, and you're a bit twitchy from fear of hoodies, so when you see me reaching for my pocket you pull out your legally owned Heckler and Kosch WH88 and blast me to pieces because you 'feared for your life'. The NRA you defend would make that okay, despite the fact I was only checking if I had enough cash in my wallet and you were the one with the problem.

    That's the case here, clearly. It wasn't Martin that chased after the 46 911 call Zimmerman, was it? but it's Zimmerman that is going to get off Scott free due to laws the NRA created.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    smithinjapan - But evidently shooting them is.

    If that person is sitting on you and punching you in the face AND you are afraid for your life, then yes, in Forida, you can draw your legally owned and legally carried firearm and protect yourself. The voters in Florida were tired of gang bangers and criminals preying on the citizens and they elected representatives who passed laws that allowed some citizens to qualify to carry concealed firearms in public. These laws are not Royal decrees by the government by are actually the will of the people.

    Seeing that groups like the New Black Panther party are passing out flyers demanding that Zimmerman be brought in DEAD or alive, I can see why.

    Walking in the neighborhood isn't illegal. Asking someone a question isn't illegal. I dont' know which man started grabbing or punching the other one FIRST (and first matters in a courtroom). Police arrest people. They don't make the decision to charge or not charge a person with a crime. That's the job of the District Attorneys office. Zimmerman says he was attacked. An eyewitness says Zimmerman was attacked. The DA's office said they had no evidence to charge Zimmerman with a crime or for violating State law.

    The lynch mobs don't care what the "law" says. 200 people at the "million hoodie march" in New York City don't care what the "law" says. The NPPP doesn't care what the "law" says. Many media outlets don't care what the "law" says. They all want Zimmerman CONVICTED. No trial is necessary. Get a rope. Find a tree. And they call that justice?

  • 2

    arrestpaul

    Ben Jack - That is actually a very interesting point. Then, under Florida law, it seems the challenge would be to show which person was actually on the defensive. The police telling Zimmerman to stop following Trayvon is certainly an important point and the one that makes application of the defense law on his behalf seem more difficult.

    Seeing that this may end up in court or become a legal defense issue it's important to note that a police officer did not tell Zimmerman to stop following anyone. A 9-1-1 phone operator did. The person handling the 9-1-1 call was not a police officer.

    Zimmerman's lawyer says this is a self defense case. Up until someone started pushing or shoving the other, neither man had committed any crime or broke any law. Neither man was restricted from entering or walking in the area. Neither man was forbidden from talking to the other. When the two men met and began asking each other questions - "What are you doing here? Why are you following me?" - nothing illegal had occured. Whatever happened after that is what's important to a court and may still be decided in a federal courtroom. There doesn't appear to be any violation of State laws.

  • 2

    arrestpaul

    smithinjapan - That's the case here, clearly. It wasn't Martin that chased after the 46 911 call Zimmerman, was it? but it's Zimmerman that is going to get off Scott free due to laws the NRA created.

    The voters in Florida still elect their representatives and the representatives still make the laws in Florida. The NRA doesn't create laws. They are a national lobbyist organization with millions of members - who vote. If the voters in Florida wanted to change their laws, they can vote to do so.

  • 3

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    Once the media decide the narrative, it is difficult to change it. This was a "white on black" crime at first, given the name Zimmerman who would argue? Sounds like something from Austria. Then, it turned out that Zimmerman was in fact Hispanic..... ditto the photos used in the media. Looks like Trayvon is about 12 years old in the photos that are always seen, whereas for Zimmerman they use a police mug shot from 6 years ago. Nice dichotomy, but accurate?

    A thorough investigation is needed, not just speculation.

  • 2

    arrestpaul

    yabits - If you don't need any authority, then you are admitting that Trayvon Martin was completely in the right to walk in his own neighborhood with the freedom from being accosted or stalked by anyone.

    Both men had a right to be in the area. Both men had a right to ask the other what they were doing there. Neither action violates Florida law. One man started pushing, grabbing, shoving, punching the other man. That escalation of the situation was illegal. The police detained Zimmerman (handcuffed). The Florida District Attorney's office made the decision not to arrest or charge Zimmerman. The DA decided they had no prosecutable case. Skittles and tea have nothing to do with the pushing and punching.

  • -2

    MrDarryl

    When Zimmerman said to the 911 dispatcher "These guys always get away" I lost all respect for him. He then proceeded to follow the young man and ended up killing him. He was in the wrong. If you go and get into a brawl on purpose and you end up shooting someone because you are getting your ass beat doesn't change the fact that you asked for it. This is not self defense. This is an idiot with a gun who ended up killing the wrong kid. He deserved to get beat up and learn his lesson...NOT ALL BLACK KIDS WITH HOODIES ARE THIEVES. When you are a neighborhood watch volunteer, you need to watch people and call authorities for backup if you suspect criminal behavior. Keep an eye on the perp, but do not approach with deadly force. Only an over-zealous fool would do such a thing and that fool does not have to be a racist. I would love to know how many of you JT folks on here would ever bring a gun on neighborhood watch? Zimmerman acted like a fool and he should pay the price for it. Getting beat up by the kid you killed should only be the beginning.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    According to the latest story in the Orlando Sentinel, the police said they had witnesses who say that Martin approached Zimmerman while Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle. After exchanging words, Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose, breaking it. Zimmerman fell to the ground. Martin then straddled Zimmerman and began repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground hard enough that the back of Zimmerman's head began bleeding. Zimmerman called for help. When no help arrive, Zimmerman drew his pistol from it's holster and shot Martin in the chest. It's also reported that Martin had been suspended from school for having a plastic bag containing drug residue in his possession.

    It looks like the lynch mobs were wrong all along.

  • 0

    sfjp330

    arrestpaulMar. 27, 2012 - 04:43AM JST. After exchanging words, Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose, breaking it. Zimmerman fell to the ground. Martin then straddled Zimmerman and began repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground hard enough that the back of Zimmerman's head began bleeding. Zimmerman called for help.

    Sounds more like illusion. How many 140 pound kid can straddle 250lb Zimmernan and repeatedly slamming his head? Martin weighs 110 pounds less than Zimmerman and he can do all of this? Must ate alot of spinich.

  • 0

    yabits

    According to the latest story in the Orlando Sentinel, the police said they had witnesses who say that Martin approached Zimmerman while Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle.

    A month later? There are people who will lie in cases like these. The "story" forces us to accept that the armed Zimmerman chased down his suspect only to decide to turn around and head back to his vehicle. Zimmerman, who has a history of physical assault against Martin -- who was never known to start a fight in his life.

    Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose, breaking it.

    If Zimmerman was walking back to his truck away from Martin, how did the 140-pound Martin land a punch on the much larger Zimmerman -- who had 100 lbs on his "suspect" -- that "broke his nose?" The initial police report failed to note any blood or injuries on Zimmerman. The initial report that was "revised" later. Stories that change and get embellished over time are likely to be less true, not more.

    having a plastic bag containing drug residue in his possession.

    An empty bag that once held grass... Hardly a violent crime or indicative of someone prone to violence.

  • -2

    yabits

    When Zimmerman said to the 911 dispatcher "These guys always get away"

    And we are asked now to believe that the guy who ran after and tracked down Trayvon suddenly decided to walk back to his vehicle -- and let Martin "get away."

    If Martin truly was beating on Zimmerman, there should have been ample physical evidence on Trayvon's hands and clothing to support the shooter's tale. If that was actually Zimmerman's voice screaming on the 911 recordings, he sounds like someone who is either castrated or barely out of puberty.

  • -2

    smithinjapan

    arrestpaul: "According to the latest story in the Orlando Sentinel, the police said they had witnesses who say that Martin approached Zimmerman while Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle. After exchanging words, Martin punched Zimmerman in the nose, breaking it. Zimmerman fell to the ground. Martin then straddled Zimmerman and began repeatedly slamming Zimmerman's head on the ground hard enough that the back of Zimmerman's head began bleeding. Zimmerman called for help. When no help arrive, Zimmerman drew his pistol from it's holster and shot Martin in the chest. It's also reported that Martin had been suspended from school for having a plastic bag containing drug residue in his possession."

    I'm sure if you looked for it you'd also find some unicorns for sale.

    You really gotta love these blogs that are SUDDENLY, a month after the fact, printing accounts of anonymous witnesses who all seemed to be standing in a circle around the two. Zimmerman was walking back to his car after saying to police 'these guys always get away' and was punched in the face... from behind? He made a call to police while his head was being dashed into the ground then calmly waited for police to come before deciding to remove his neighborhood watch gun from its holster? Where was all the blood from the broken nose and the back of Zimmerman's head when the police came after his.... 47th call?

    "It looks like the lynch mobs were wrong all along."

    If by lynch mob you are referring to Zimmerman, who decided to go kill a black kid on his way home, then yes -- he was and always has been in the wrong.

  • 1

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    It's obvious that the simple narrative pushed in the media- black child murdered by angry white racist- is not 100% accurate. The use of perjorative photos of both participants (Trayvon the good boy at age 12, Zimmerman the scowling wannabe Terminator) was a shallow attempt to maintain this line.

    The truth seems much more complex. Trayvon was a strapping young man of 17 years - 6'2", depending on reports 170lbs, Zimmerman an overweight office worker at 5'8" or 5'9". There was some form of physical confrontation before the killing. It wasn't a case of Zimmerman walking up to Martin and simply shooting him. Zimmerman was injured during the confrontation- how and when?

    Lots of questions, answers to follow hopefully.

  • 0

    peanut666

    First Trayvon was 6 foot 2 inches tall, 17 years old almost 180 lbs. Zimmerman was 5 foot 8 inches tall, overweight. Trayvon was a known drug user in high school.

    I think the way it went was that Zimmerman said something to Trayvon, like why aren't you in school? This pissed Trayvon off, so basically Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and when he fell Trayvon started beating Zimmerman's ass.

    Zimmerman was on his back and Trayvon was sitting on top of him pounding Zimmerman's head over and over again. Zimmerman was screaming for help, but no wanted to help him. So basically Zimmerman took his gun out and shot Trayvon. That's pretty much what all the evidence shows.

    Who's at fault? The community. Do you know why? Because they don't care what real Justice is, they just want revenge. To strike back at history's racism toward the African - American community. They should be ashamed of using Trayvon's death as a tool.

  • -2

    yabits

    Trayvon was a strapping young man of 17 years - 6'2", depending on reports 170lbs

    No. Reports have him weighing around 140 lbs.

    First Trayvon was 6 foot 2 inches tall, 17 years old almost 180 lbs.

    Looks like a fish story, where the fish gets longer and the victim heavier with each telling.

    Zimmerman was injured during the confrontation- how and when?

    Initial police reports do not mention any injuries to Zimmerman. That's a significant omission.

    I think the way it went was that Zimmerman said something to Trayvon, like why aren't you in school? This pissed Trayvon off, so basically Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and when he fell Trayvon started beating Zimmerman's ass.

    Quite a speculation there. Why aren't you in school? It was 7 PM in the evening. Zimmerman claims he was going back to his vehicle when he was "attacked" by Trayvon -- a guy nearly 100 lbs. lighter and 10 years younger. Trayvon was not known by any of his peers as any kind of a fighter. He was wasn't considered physical enough to make his high school's football team and was more of a studious type -- who loved math and science.

  • -2

    PeaceWarrior

    If I broke into Zimmerman's home, and he started beating me up and got the best of me, do I then have a right to shoot him?

    If this had been an officer-involved shooting, the gun would have been taken away from the officer during the investigation. Why was Zimmerman able to retain possession of his gun? Why didn't the Sanford police seize it? He's had a whole lot of time to get rid of it by now!! Why was the police focused on proving Zimmerman's defense instead of finding out why a 17yo boy is dead?

    Why weren't pictures of Zimmerman's injuries taken during the prelim phase of the investigation? Did he see a doctor for his injuries?

    Why was there no autopsy?

    All questions the family would like to have answers to.

    I have a 16yo at home and he is about the same weight and height as Treyvon so this story hits me particularly hard. I've told my kids the same thing many times since they were young boys going to elementary school... If a scary adult is following you, start screaming (Fire usually does the trick, help doesn't) to make sure that witnesses come out of their houses and see what's happening and maybe get help. Try to keep your head on but if you really have no other choices, defend yourselves with everything you've got.

  • -2

    yabits

    Why weren't pictures of Zimmerman's injuries taken during the prelim phase of the investigation? Did he see a doctor for his injuries?

    Good questions. A broken nose often requires x-rays for the diagnosis.

  • 1

    Ch1n4Sailor

    This is an idiot with a gun who ended up killing the wrong kid. He deserved to get beat up and learn his lesson..

    Spoken like a true thug!

    You guys don't even care what really happen, all you want is Zimmerman on trial for capital murder. And I hope the BIG LESSON OUT OF ALL THIS IS THAT ALL PARENTS Will teach their Children that you don't go around Jumping people, Punching Them in the Head, The Nose, or commit Unprovoked Violence, because something very bad might happen! You walk away from trouble! Period!

    Unprovoked Violence Against a Scrawny Scared (Unstable) Man is what killed Martin! NOT AN OUT FOR BLOOD, WHITE-SUPREMACIST!

  • -2

    yabits

    You guys don't even care what really happen, all you want is Zimmerman on trial for capital murder

    Grow up, Sailor.

    All most of us want is for a jury to hear all the evidence and decide whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense. The police should not be the final word on the matter because they only heard the killer's side of the story that night.

  • -1

    Ch1n4Sailor

    All most of us want is for a jury to hear all the evidence and decide whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense The police should not be the final word on the matter because they only heard the killer's side of the story that night.

    Ok, youngster... No bias here huh..? "Killer"

    Ok, so then we'll just ignore, what did you post, like 78 comments..? From "You" calling this Zimmerman every word under the sun,...

    Dude... Every Other comment on this Thread, IS FROM YOU there puppy... Ok.... Roger that Kiddo! LOL......

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    According to a recent story in the Miami Harold -

    In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area, hiding and being suspicious. Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with W.T.F. The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker. Instead the officer reported he found women's jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a burglary tool, according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald. Word of the incident came as the family's lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana. Trayvon's backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

    This report is just as relevent as the report that Zimmerman was previously arrested.

    Of course, neither of these stories have any bering on the fact that eyewitnesses report that Martin was trying to crush Zimmerman's head against a concrete sidewalk when Zimmerman shot him.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Grow up, Sailor.

    All most of us want is for a jury to hear all the evidence and decide whether Zimmerman acted in self-defense. The police should not be the final word on the matter because they only heard the killer's side of the story that night.

    Another personal attack? Florida police detain and arrest suspects but it's the State Attorneys (or whatever they're called there) who made the decision not to charge Zimmerman. Zimmerman's story plus those of the eyewitnesses (who are afraid to speak publically due to the threats of violence from the lynch mob types) indicate that Zimmerman was defending his life when he shot Martin.

  • 0

    yabits

    Ok, youngster... No bias here huh..? "Killer"

    Killer, as in someone who kills another human being, chum.

    There are no medical reports substantiating the "life threatening" beating being administered by a guy 100 lbs. lighter than Zimmerman -- armed with nothing but his bare hands. The original police report on the scene -- usually reliable in covering the visible points -- neglected to mention any injuries to Zimmerman. Where are the medical reports of a concussion or broken nose? Where are the photos of Zimmerman from that night -- detailing his "injuries."

    If the worst about Martin is to be believed from the various conflicting "witness" reports, he was just opening up a can of good old-fashioned whoopass on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman couldn't take it. Zimmerman's story has continued to "evolve" over time. Now we read that Zimmerman -- through his "friends" -- claims that Martin was going for his gun. Oh, yeah, you claim he was beating you so badly you were afraid for your life, but you still managed to get to your gun -- while at the same time losing the fight?

    Why wasn't the description of Martin trying to get your gun in the police report, Zimmerman?

    Graffiti, looking suspicious at school, having a screwdriver -- all that is irrelevant to the night in question, and is just an attempt by some to smear Martin's character to the point of wanting to justify his killing. Where are the reports or history of Martin engaged in fighting or any violence to others? (As opposed to Zimmerman, who has had several assault complaints against him that we know about.) On the night in question, did Martin steal anything from the 7-11? Did he properly pay for the candy and ice tea he carried? Did he have any screwdrivers or drugs on him? Was evidence of drugs in his system?

    No, the kid was just trying to get home to be with his sibling and enjoy watching a key sporting event on TV.

    Florida police detain and arrest suspects but it's the State Attorneys (or whatever they're called there) who made the decision not to charge Zimmerman.

    The mayor of Sanford publicly said he has lost complete faith in his chief of police over the handling of this. The city manager describes the event as a "murder." The state attorneys are completely dependent upon the police work done at the scene -- which was abysmally incompetent.

    Zimmerman's story plus those of the eyewitnesses (who are afraid to speak publically due to the threats of violence from the lynch mob types) indicate that Zimmerman was defending his life when he shot Martin.

    Several witnesses have come forward to say the police would not believe them or tried to get them to change their stories to match what Zimmerman was telling them. As for the "lynch mob types," you revealed your own homophobia when running down how Barney Frank engineered the collapse of the entire U.S. housing industry while a Republican president and Republican Congress helplessly looked on. I believe that the irrelevant attacks on Trayvon's character in the attempt to smear him are revelations of the same kind of hatred applied to race.

  • -2

    sailwind

    The original police report on the scene -- usually reliable in covering the visible points -- neglected to mention any injuries to Zimmerman.

    You are either seriously misinformed or willfully distorting and bending the truth.

    "I could observe that [Zimmerman's] back appeared to be wet and was covered in grass, as if he had been laying on his back on the ground. Zimmerman was also bleeding from the nose and back of his head."

    "While the SFD was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state "I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me."

    Original Police report.

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

  • -1

    yabits

    You are either seriously misinformed or willfully distorting and bending the truth.

    From the initial police report filed by Officer Ricardo Ayala at 02:28 (report A49160), there is no mention made of any injuries to Zimmerman.

    It is from a report an hour later -- 03:29 -- by Officer Timothy Smith (report S25894), that injuries to Zimmerman are mentioned.

    I will not sink to your level by suggesting your are willfully distorting or bending the truth. I have always been able to back up my claims. If Zimmerman's injuries might have not been anything more than extremely minor, which is why they had to be described only after being in very close proximity with Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had sustained injuries that were more serious, I don't see how Officer Ayala would have failed to note them.

  • -2

    yabits

    Many things do not add up about Zimmerman:

    1) First, he calls 911 and pursues a suspect. Then, after running him down and cornering Trayvon Martin -- and with police on the way! -- he suddenly decides to just give it all up and head back to his vehicle? The BS meter pegs on that one.

    2) Second, he brings his gun into a confrontation with an unknown, suspicious, possibly high or crazy "bad guy." Does he have it in any way ready to make use of in case of self-defense? Often a perpetrator, or just the average person, will immediately think twice about launching an aggressive attack against a person holding a handgun. Especially if they are unarmed.

    Instead of keeping his weapon ready and visible, or clearly identifying himself to Martin as a super mall-cop with a gun, Zimmerman accosts him with questions that Martin has no obligation to answer.

    Zimmerman's own stupidity in how he handled his weapon and himself were major contributors to this tragedy. If Trayvon Martin had somehow gotten a hold of Zimmerman's gun and shot him, would it have been self-defense on Martin's part? He had no idea that Zimmerman was any kind of law officer (which he wasn't), and Zimmerman made no attempt to identify himself as such.

    It was Zimmerman who initiated the confrontation and so the weight of responsibility was on him -- armed as he was -- to handle the situation in a way to prevent a tragedy like this from occurring.

    That said, it makes point 1 above all the more incomprehensible. You just walk away and turn your back on someone you've claimed was suspicious and called the police on?

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - There are no medical reports substantiating the "life threatening" beating being administered by a guy 100 lbs. lighter than Zimmerman -- armed with nothing but his bare hands. The original police report on the scene -- usually reliable in covering the visible points -- neglected to mention any injuries to Zimmerman. Where are the medical reports of a concussion or broken nose? Where are the photos of Zimmerman from that night -- detailing his "injuries."

    If the worst about Martin is to be believed from the various conflicting "witness" reports, he was just opening up a can of good old-fashioned whoopass on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman couldn't take it. Zimmerman's story has continued to "evolve" over time. Now we read that Zimmerman -- through his "friends" -- claims that Martin was going for his gun. Oh, yeah, you claim he was beating you so badly you were afraid for your life, but you still managed to get to your gun -- while at the same time losing the fight?

    Another misdirection plus a personal attack? Neither changes the fact that eyewitnesses say Martin was trying to crush Zimmerman's skull against the concrete sidewalk when he was shot. Zimmerman has never made a public statement so his story hasn't changed. It's the wild rumors and speculations of the lynch mob types that have changed.

    If Martin wasn't on a 10 day suspension from high school, he would not have been in the area. If Martin had just walked home and gone inside, none of this would have happened. If Martin had not begun punching Zimmerman, there would have been no fight. If Martin had not tried to kill Zimmerman, Martin would be alive today.

    Neighborhoods create neighborhood watches because they have a serious problem with crime. Neighborhood watch volunteers call the police and look for suspicious people. Neither man broke any laws by asking questions of the other. Martin chose to assulted Zimmerman. That is an illegal act. Martin then tried to kill Zimmerman. Zimmerman is permitted by State law to defend himself.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Instead of keeping his weapon ready and visible, or clearly identifying himself to Martin as a super mall-cop with a gun, Zimmerman accosts him with questions that Martin has no obligation to answer.

    Hahahaha. Why would Zimmerman "clearly indentify himself as super mall-cop"? Only you claim Zimmerman was a "super mall-cop".

    Why would Zimmerman have his weapon at the ready and visible if he only wanted to know where Martin was or what Martin was doing in the area?

    Martin had no obligation to answer Zimerman's questions.

    Martin had no obligation to break Zimmerman's nose.

    Martin had no obligation to slam Zimmerman's head on the ground.

    Martin could have just gone home.

    Martin made a lot of bad choices.

  • -1

    yabits

    Another misdirection plus a personal attack?

    Just as some find it important to remind folks of the Brawley affair when Sharpton's name comes up, I think readers should realize the kind of thinking that would put the collapse of the housing industry on what happened between gay lovers. (I believe that exhibits homophobia, to say the least.)

    Neither changes the fact that eyewitnesses say Martin was trying to crush Zimmerman's skull against the concrete sidewalk when he was shot

    Zimmerman claims Martin was going for his gun. How does a person attempt to "crush" another person's skull and attempt to grab their gun at the same time? Was Zimmerman holding it in his teeth? How can an eyewitness, in dark of a February evening, make a determination between "trying to crush" or simply pinning someone down? "Trying to crush" is a value judgment that already betrays bias on the witness's part. As well as anyone who tries to present that tale here.

    If Martin wasn't on a 10 day suspension from high school, he would not have been in the area.

    Irrelevant.

  • 0

    cracaphat

    As his mother said,”This is not about a black and white thing,it's about a right and wrong thing." So true.

  • -1

    yabits

    Hahahaha. Why would Zimmerman "clearly indentify himself as super mall-cop"? Only you claim Zimmerman was a "super mall-cop".

    Your laughter on several occasions over this tragic shooting is noted. You seem to relish the fact of Martin's death.

    "Mall cop" is slang for anyone who thinks they have the authority to go chasing after another citizen to confront them when they haven't broken any laws and have just as much right to be walking on the sidewalk as the next person. "Super mall-cop" is such an individual who carries a loaded weapon with them into such an altercation.

    Why would Zimmerman have his weapon at the ready and visible if he only wanted to know where Martin was or what Martin was doing in the area?

    Zimmerman didn't know Martin. All he saw was a character he felt was so suspicious that he had to call 911 on him. You mean Zimmerman could go running after this suspicious, up-to-no-good character and assume that the character would not be carrying any weapon, or react in an unpredictable manner?

    The fact that Zimmerman did NOT act responsibly is evident on a great many points -- none of which you can refute. Zimmerman was the armed citizen who was trying to act as a junior G-man. You want to absolve Zimmerman of all responsibility when his foolishness and recklessness -- just the kind of traits in a person you want to trust with lethal firepower -- are clearly evident here.

    Martin, feeling he was being threatened, had every right to defend himself against a complete stranger chasing him down and accosting him. It was Zimmerman's responsibility to approach the unknown suspect with due caution and care. His story about suddenly deciding to leave Martin and head back to his vehicle is not very believable.

  • 0

    TigermothII

    You would have to be out of your mind to think that the local Police Department wouldn't have arrested Zimmermin on the spot, had it been a simple instance of him shooting an unarmed teen...

    I hear where you're coming from, but the main problem here is that the local yokel police force seems to have done no investigating other than taking down names, basic accounts of what happened, concluding self defense and leaving it at that. The furor came later when the parents took it national.

    While I thought it was cut and dry before (showing how easily all American swallow what they read with little thought) just the difference and variance of facts and suppositions from this posting - and the media in general makes this a textbook case jumping the gun - no pun intended.

    Here I see that Trayvon was suspended because of tardiness or unexcused absences - whatever it was. The news last night said it was because he had a baggie with trace marijuana in it at school. I know - it makes no difference that, or why he was suspended. But I also see tons of posting about what a fine, upstanding and great kid Trayvon was. How do any of us have a clue about this, other than what the parents or family says? He might have been. But he might not have been. I've heard that Zimmerman is anything from white to Mexican to Peruvian. I've heard real extremes even in Tryvon's physical appearance. The photos show a smallish boy. I've heard everything from him being 5'4" and 120 pounds soaking wet, to over 6 foot and a star on the football team. I've heard some swear that there are racial statements by Zimmerman on the phone - and others who swear you can hear no such thing (and no, not all of them white cops). We've heard that Trayvon was screaming and pleading for his life - then we've heard that Zimmerman was the one screaming and was getting the sh#t kicked out of him by Trayvon. I've seen black family 'friends' of Zimmerman who say he was mentoring young black youth and practically an angelic choir boy, and conversely heard he had once been charged with assaulting a cop. The family friend mentioned above claims there will be some great revealing information that will exonerate Zimmerman when the grand jury convenes and releases the facts. Some say Zimmerman was cut and beat up - others that Trayvon was on his back pleading for his life.

    The point of all this is that it seems like nobody really has a real clue what the hell they're talking about - or at least those that do have yet to speak. There are two clear facts. One is that the local police were incompetent fools at best. Forensics would have gone a long way in determining who did what. Zimmerman could have even wiped Trayvon's blood on his face to make it seem like a struggle. The lack of investigation means all that evidence is destroyed or just gone. The second fact is as has been stated; whether things went bad and Zimmerman was actually 'forced' into shooting to save himself from either having his but kicked or his own gun used on himself or not - he should not have been armed and confronting anyone on his own. He's not a cop. I'm certain that any good citizen watch group will tell you that your place is observation, then alerting the authorities - not following them armed with a handgun. His stupidity lead to a death, and other circumstances aside he should face consequences for it. Even if he was attacked by Martin - to the point he felt need to shoot him to save himself - he's (Zimmerman) still the one who put himself in that position in the first place.

  • -1

    yabits

    The point of all this is that it seems like nobody really has a real clue what the hell they're talking about - or at least those that do have yet to speak. There are two clear facts. One is that the local police were incompetent fools at best. Forensics would have gone a long way in determining who did what. Zimmerman could have even wiped Trayvon's blood on his face to make it seem like a struggle. The lack of investigation means all that evidence is destroyed or just gone. The second fact is as has been stated; whether things went bad and Zimmerman was actually 'forced' into shooting to save himself from either having his but kicked or his own gun used on himself or not - he should not have been armed and confronting anyone on his own. He's not a cop. I'm certain that any good citizen watch group will tell you that your place is observation, then alerting the authorities - not following them armed with a handgun. His stupidity lead to a death, and other circumstances aside he should face consequences for it. Even if he was attacked by Martin - to the point he felt need to shoot him to save himself - he's (Zimmerman) still the one who put himself in that position in the first place.

    Well said. I completely agree.

  • 0

    MrDarryl

    All I want is for the story to make sense based on what we know. You can talk all you want and call me a thug (never been in a fight BTW), but that doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman pursued Martin and ended up shooting him. How, Why? We don't know. I, for one, want to know. You my friend don't seem to give crap. Keep calling me names. I might start threatening you and then you can shoot me too. It seems legal, for now. The law that lets this situation arise needs to be changed. It seems as though anyone who feels threatened can shoot the person they feel threatened by. I love all of the anecdotes on here. Such speculation is dangerous. Zimmerman was walking after this young man and he had a gun and the 911 dispatcher said we don't need you to do that and to wait for the units on the way. He decided to take matters into his own hands. So what's his story? Well we won't know until they bring him in for questioning or we get the police report.

  • 0

    MrDarryl

    The above was supposed to be in response to: Ch1n4Sailor

  • 0

    TigermothII

    Does anyone know (and I doubt it given how scrambled all the facts seem to still be) if Zimmerman received any medical treatment or went to the hospital after the incident? One would think that if Martin was beating him severely enough in a confrontation (assuming that scenario) that he felt need to draw his gun and shoot him then he had reasonably significant injuries from the assault. If it was just a few punches or maybe shoving someone down, that warrants shooting the person? If the law in Florida truly is that you can shoot someone if they shove or punch you then I'm surprised there is anyone in that state left alive.

  • -2

    sfjp330

    arrestpaul Mar. 27, 2012 - 05:36PM JST According to a recent story in the Miami Harold - Word of the incident came as the family's lawyer acknowledged that the boy was suspended in February for getting caught with an empty bag with traces of marijuana. This report is just as relevent as the report that Zimmerman was previously arrested.

    The empty bag of marijuana Martin had at school would have meant something very different for him than it does for the middle class white kids who use drugs at higher rates. He’d have gone on to live in a country where where nearly 4 in 10 black children live in poverty, in which 1 in 4 black households lack food security. The fact is the U.S. often seems like it’s built to kill black people. This is not to say racism is equally lethal today as it was even a single generation ago. But it is to say that the same set of deeply ingrained ideas about what black people have coming to us justified the brutality of yesterday and today alike. too.

    U.S. write laws that allow people to gun down unarmed children and then make the child the aggressor. And so now Trayvon Martin will be all manner of sinner, a pothead, a dropout, a temper problem who had it coming. But what he will indisputably be is dead, like too many before him and surely many after him. He had it coming, as a black man in America.

  • 0

    peanut666

    Here is one of Trayvon's photo's released by his friend's cell phone:

    http://www.wesh.com/image/30768368/detail.html

  • -3

    peanut666

    Does he look like the nerdy skinny candy eating kid that loves science and math as reported?

    There is a big difference between "justice" and "revenge" . Justice is the outcome of due process of law. If Zimmerman is found innocent from due process of law, will that quiet the community and crowds? Of course not. They are not looking for justice.

  • 1

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    Well, as I've said before, the media loves a simple narrative, and is loathe to move from it. Clean-cut black kid is shot by white racist is a good, simple narrative. Once that was the story as told, the media's main objective is to protect the story, not to inform the public. Hence the continuing use of inflammatory photos (a much younger Trayvon/an angry looking Zimmerman), the invention of the phrase "white hispanic" to describe Zimmerman, etc. I wonder if they would use the same logic and describe President Obama as a "white African American"? Somehow, I doubt it.

    As other details become available, only then does the narrative slowly and reluctantly change. The young man's death is tragic and deserves to be more fully investigated. Other than that, we don't know a lot and should try to be as open minded as possible.

  • -1

    smithinjapan

    arrestpaul: "One man started pushing, grabbing, shoving, punching the other man."

    You've got to love it. Only yesterday people like Lieberman and arrestpaul were saying the facts are not known and demanding it be looked at fairly and he receive due trial, but now suddenly you've got arrestpaul saying, as though it were fact, that Martin 'dashed his skull into the pavement'/'sat on him and beat him' (it keeps changing, by the way), as though no further investigation is necessary and the dodgy accounts of supposed witnesses, surfacing a month after the fact on blogs, is conviction that Zimmerman was in the right.

  • 1

    smithinjapan

    "Does he look like the nerdy skinny candy eating kid that loves science and math as reported?"

    Does it look like he's wearing a hoodie on a dark February night?

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    "Leaks from the police report detail Zimmerman telling police he was heading back to his truck when Martin knocked him down with a punch to his nose, jumped on him, repeatedly banged his head on the ground, then tried to grab Zimmerman's gun."

    This is what ZIMMERMAN says happened, and people who are demanding fair process and stating there's no proof something alleged did not happen need to stop saying it is fact.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    peanut666: Meant to add that if you're going to refer to a picture that has no context to imply that Trayvon was indeed suspicious looking and not the angel other pictures present, you also need to keep in mind that the media is now showing a picture of a clean-cut, suit wearing and a nice smile Zimmerman and not so much the 'suspicious' looking Zimmerman in the orange prison uniform (or so it SHOULD be, if it's not).

  • 0

    yabits

    In breaking news, it is now revealed that the lead investigator in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin had recommended bringing manslaughter charges against Zimmerman after hearing all the evidence. It is also revealed that he was overruled by the State Attorney. (It is reported that the lead investigator took the unusual steps of documenting the internal correspondence on this.)

    The State Attorney who ordered Zimmerman to be let go without charges has now been replaced by a special prosecutor as it concerns this case.

  • 0

    yabits

    This is what ZIMMERMAN says happened, and people who are demanding fair process and stating there's no proof something alleged did not happen need to stop saying it is fact.

    Correct. The lead investigator on the case, in fact, was not buying Zimmerman's story completely and recommended bringing manslaughter charges against him.

  • 1

    sfjp330

    Zimmerman had absolutely no right to confront this kid, even if he thought he was "up to no good." It's this same type of paranoia and racial profiling that led trained cops on the NYPD to shoot a man reaching for his wallet. And frankly, it's a major problem in our society the way we criminalize black youth. The young blacks get pigeonholed as troublemakers early on. These kids have very little trust for anyone because they're demonized from a young age by the "powers that be", mostly by white, middle age, middle income men and women. No one gives them a chance, so of course they're not going to respond well to authority. That's not to say there aren't major problems in poverty-stricken minority neighborhoods, but middle class whites aren't helping. I wish those conservatives who claim to be "color blind" can now see.

  • 0

    Tamarama

    As a releatively impartial observer, I admire many things about the United States, I have quite a few American friends who are lovely people, I finnd it to be a wonderful place to visit. But I also dislike aspects of American foreign policy, and the political and social system. So here is what strikes me about this. This seems to me to be a symptom of some broad internal problems in the US. The first is the gun laws. The US obsessions with guns is a sickness, and the right to bare arms is an absolute travesty. The combination of federal laws with the local ones in places like Florida beggar belief. They are laws that do not make the country better, or people safer. They make people paranoid and nervous and it leads to things like the death of this kid. In a safe and well balanced society, people don't walk around with guns and laws don't make provision for you to use that gun if you deem it appropriate. Mix that with poverty, undereducation, poor career prospects, alienation, disengagement, drugs and you have a caustic social recipe. The United States needs to start investing more money into social reform and educational programs - spending money on it's people, and less on it's military for a start (More, bigger guns).

  • 0

    DentShop

    I love watching the media manipulate people like what is happening now. Absolute loss of perspective has me rubbing my hands together!

    Florida has 27 electoral votes and could go either way. Thats the only reason Obama got involved in this nonsense. Had it happened in Mississippi - "that aint my son..."

  • 2

    Vast Right-Wing Conspirator

    Another part of the accepted narrative that is completely inaccurate is the idea that blacks, particularly young black men, are in constant danger of being killed by ignorant racist whites. It's a fabrication that is not borne out by the facts. The vast majority of blacks who are killed are tragically killed by other blacks. This is an ugly fact that nobody wants to deal with, but crime in general (like so much of American society) does not cross racial lines. When it DOES cross, it makes the news.

    Tamarama, the US already spends trillions of dollars on education. Spending per pupil is the second highest in the OECD according to some research. I agree that military spending needs to be cut, and the armed forces need to be brought back. I'm not sure what you mean by "social reform", could you be more specific?

  • 2

    DentShop

    It's a fabrication that is not borne out by the facts

    Absolutely correct. Half the opportunists that have been shouting for "justice" put on the hoodies to cover up their Kony 2012 t-shirts. They need to move their protests to the corner of the projects where young blacks lose their lives each day at the hands of other blacks. Bit too scary for some I would say.

    Oh and white people - if village idiot Al Sharpton or registered moron Spike Lee ever joins your protest - run! Run like heck because these two fools ruin everything they touch.

  • -4

    sfjp330

    The problem is that one of four black men in their 20s is in jail, in prison or otherwise under the control of criminal courts through probation or parole. By contrast, only 6% of white men in their 20s are being held or supervised by the criminal courts, and more than four times as many white men are in college as are under court control. The discrimination in the criminal justice system is partly to blame. It is still a white system with white judges, white prosecutors and white juries.

  • -2

    arrestpaul

    yabits - The fact that Zimmerman did NOT act responsibly is evident on a great many points -- none of which you can refute. Zimmerman was the armed citizen who was trying to act as a junior G-man. You want to absolve Zimmerman of all responsibility when his foolishness and recklessness -- just the kind of traits in a person you want to trust with lethal firepower -- are clearly evident here.

    Martin, feeling he was being threatened, had every right to defend himself against a complete stranger chasing him down and accosting him. It was Zimmerman's responsibility to approach the unknown suspect with due caution and care. His story about suddenly deciding to leave Martin and head back to his vehicle is not very believable.

    Your "attempted" redirection does not change the fact that as more eyewitness reports are surfacing, eyewitness reports that back up what Zimmerman told the police, Martin approached Zimmerman, the men exchanged words, and Martin punched Zimmerman in the face.

    Zimmerman was no longer a threat to Martin at that point in time because Zimmerman was laying on the ground with a broken nose and he was call to his neighbors for help. Martin could have walked away. Martin could have gone home. Martin chose to sit on Zimmerman and bang his head on a concrete sidewalk. According to eyewitnesses.

    The stories originally circulated for weeks by the lynch mobs are falling apart.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    smithinjapan - This is what ZIMMERMAN says happened, and people who are demanding fair process and stating there's no proof something alleged did not happen need to stop saying it is fact.

    That is also what the eyewitnesses told the police. The eyewitness's and Zimmerman's story are the same. It certainly doesn't agree with the stories that the lynch mobs have been making up.

  • 1

    ramses68

    We don't criminalize children in America. They tend to do it just fine by themselves.
    Most of the black children, I know have 2 parents who are active and involved in their lives. Zimmerman, the multi racial Peruvian American should have left well enough alone, and fallen back when advised to do so by the dispatcher. The media should quit trying to paint Martin as a choirboy. The fact that Martin was all about the "Thugz" life, with stealing jewelry and smoking weed, while flashing gang signs and wearing his gold grille to show to his homies on Facebook ,is irrelevant at this point. I'm sick and tired of seeing pictures of a 12 year old Martin in the news. He was a 17 year old 6'3" football player who wanted to be seen as a thug by his homies. Attacking Zimmerman wasn't the smartest thing he could have done, but it fits the picture that is beginning to come out about who Martin really was. The media is a bunch of ambulance chasers who are beginning to rank themselves near lawyers as the most repugnant folks around. Zimmerman had no cause to escalate the situation for any reason at all, and should have stood down when advised to by the police dispatcher. Regardless of Martins character or lack of it, Zimmerman is the one that escalated the situation, and should be punished accordingly. Manslaughter should be the charge and 7-12 should be the sentence.

  • 0

    sailwind

    From the initial police report filed by Officer Ricardo Ayala at 02:28 (report A49160), there is no mention made of any injuries to Zimmerman.

    From the** INITIAL** report Officer Ayala had his hands full as soon on other priorites as he was the first to arrive............Began CPR, SGT. Ralmondo did breath and I did chest compressions.

    Trying to save Martin's life.

  • -2

    yabits

    From the** INITIAL** report Officer Ayala had his hands full as soon on other priorites as he was the first to arrive..

    And so I was not misleading when I said the initial report contained no mention of injuries to Zimmerman. Why? Because you had to be close to him to see them -- such as they were.

    Anyone with the slightest knowledge of human physiology knows that a blow to the nose hard enough to break it and gashes to the scalp -- that come from someone allegedly "pounding" a head against pavement hard enough to be life-threatening are nearly always accompanied by a LOT of blood. Cuts to the scalp especially.

    A blow to the front of the face hard enough to break a nose will also cause immediate swelling and (later) bruises. Where is the evidence of this bodily damage to Zimmerman?

    The lead investigator in the case -- a 15-year veteran of the Sanford Police Department -- saw all this and recommended for manslaughter charges to be brought against Zimmerman. From that one could draw that the extent of the injuries observed on Zimmerman did not appear to be serious.

  • -1

    sailwind

    If Zimmerman had sustained injuries that were more serious, I don't see how Officer Ayala would have failed to note them.

    Your Statement above:

    Immediate first aid and CPR to the victim to save try to save his life as he was the first Initial Officer on the scene and you don't see how Officer Ayala would fail to note them. I got it.

    And so I was not misleading when I said the initial report contained no mention of injuries to Zimmerman.

    Totally Misleading and giving the absolute false impression that the original initial police reports (All of them from all the initial officers on the scene) did not mention any injuries to Zimmerman. Of the three officers the one of the three that wasn't applying CPR to Martin and who was tasked with detaining Zimmerman only mentions the injuries quite clearly and as a matter of fact states he is still bleeding from them in his report. The other two Officers weren't tasked with detaining Zimmerman were to busy at the time trying to save a life. I think I can forgive the two Officers for not taking a little time out of the breath and chest compressions to stop get a good look at Zimmerman so they could have put in to their report that evening.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    I am surprised to learn that movie director Spike Lee and other lynch mob members have given out Zimmerman's address over the internet.

    Unfortunately for the 70 year old couple who live at the address the lynch mob has been distributing - they don't know the Zimmerman who was involved in the shooting and never have. Oops. I guess the 70 year olds can file a civil suit against the racists who encouraged mob action against them. Spike Lee has deep pockets.

  • -1

    yabits

    Totally Misleading and giving the absolute false impression that the original initial police reports

    I never wrote "reports." I wrote the original/initial report. Not the plural, which is clearly your attempt to mislead.

    Had the injuries to Zimmerman's head been serious enough, anyone coming on the scene -- including Officer Avaya -- would have at least noted them. They obviously weren't of the nature to cause the lead investigator in the case to believe this was a clear case of self-defense, and that investigator had the opportunity to observe Zimmerman in a lighted police station.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - A blow to the front of the face hard enough to break a nose will also cause immediate swelling and (later) bruises. Where is the evidence of this bodily damage to Zimmerman?

    The lead investigator in the case -- a 15-year veteran of the Sanford Police Department -- saw all this and recommended for manslaughter charges to be brought against Zimmerman. From that one could draw that the extent of the injuries observed on Zimmerman did not appear to be serious.

    As long as you understand that Zimmerman had injuries, contrary to what the lynch mobs say.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Yabits,

    I never wrote "reports." I wrote the original/initial report. Not the plural, which is clearly your attempt to mislead.

    Your Mar 27th 2012 09:08 Am post begs to differ.

    Initial police reports do not mention any injuries to Zimmerman. That's a significant omission.

  • 0

    yabits

    Tonight on The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Joe Morgan, the "African-American friend" of George Zimmerman was grilled on his relationship with Zimmerman.

    As was revealed, Morgan really doesn't know Zimmerman that well. He was completely unaware that Zimmerman had made all those calls to 911 over the past few years. Morgan admitted that he was basing all his opinions on what happened on the night of the shooting on "a gut feeling."

    Interestingly, Morgan said he and his daughter listened to the alleged slur on the 911 tape can came away feeling 50/50 that the word used by Zimmerman after the clear profanity was either "goon" or the other word that rhymes. To confuse things further, Morgan went on a show to explain that a derivation of the c-word is widely used in Louisiana as slang for Cajuns. Very strange -- as if that made it OK if Zimmerman used it.

  • 1

    DentShop

    I am surprised to learn that movie director Spike Lee and other lynch mob members have given out Zimmerman's address over the internet.

    Incredibly irresponsible behaviour from the one-time film maker. It must be frustrating for hard-working and sensible black Americans to see their so-called "leaders" making fools out of themselves and encouraging the kind of recklessness that caused so much hurt to their own black communities.

  • 0

    yabits

    Your Mar 27th 2012 09:08 Am post begs to differ.

    My post at 9:43, which you yourself quoted, corrected the earlier error. The initial report, in fact, made no mention of Zimmerman's injuries.

    Most importantly, was this presented to mean that Zimmerman sustained no injuries?? No. (That is your attempt to mislead.) Only that the injuries were not severe enough or obvious enough to be noticed by anyone arriving on the scene. You had to be close to Zimmerman to notice them.

    The lead investigator saw Zimmerman in the light of the police station and made a judgment that the injuries were not of a nature that made self-defense a credible claim. He recommended putting Zimmerman under arrest for manslaughter.

  • 0

    yabits

    That's a significant omission.

    An error that was corrected immediately in a following post -- the very one you initially quoted. Unfortunately, there is not a post-edit correction function.

    But the main point remains the same: Zimmerman's injuries were neither serious nor obvious.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    George Zimmerman is a registered Democrat .He identifies himself as "Hispanic."

    Funny how the media needed to go with the "white hispanic " neologism and the whole has a gun therefore likes guns, must be a right winger angle.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Incredibly irresponsible behaviour from the one-time film maker. It must be frustrating for hard-working and sensible black Americans to see their so-called "leaders" making fools out of themselves and encouraging the kind of recklessness that caused so much hurt to their own black communities.

    Not only that but reports today say an elderly Fla couple now fears for their lives.

    Idiot race hustler Spike Lee tweeted the wrong address.

  • -1

    yabits

    Funny how the media needed to go with the "white hispanic " neologism and the whole has a gun therefore likes guns, must be a right winger angle.

    Funny how nobody here to the best of my recollection made any mention or speculation of Zimmerman's political affiliation before you brought it up. It is obvious, however, that Zimmerman has become a darling of right-wingers for killing a young black man.

    Not only that but reports today say an elderly Fla couple now fears for their lives.

    Do you hate African-Americans enough to believe their fears are well-founded? (Since you brought it up, I think the answer is obvious.)

  • 1

    DentShop

    Zimmerman has become a darling of right-wingers for killing a young black man

    That is false. The right has good reason to be contemptuous towards the media for the way this event has been portrayed.

    The media has for years been race-baiting and encouraging blacks to continue to grip to their victim status and for whites to assume the blame for anything that happens to them. If the right can be happy about anything it is that the hypocrisy of both the media and politicians is being dragged into the spotlight for everybody to see.

  • -2

    PeaceWarrior

    Zimmerman was no longer a threat to Martin at that point in time because Zimmerman was laying on the ground with a broken nose and he was call to his neighbors for help. Martin could have walked away. Martin could have gone home. Martin chose to sit on Zimmerman and bang his head on a concrete sidewalk

    @arrestpaul,

    Let me get this straight; according to you, in Florida, if you want to kill someone and get away with it, you simply follow them, act in a threatening fashion, stalk them aggressively, and then when they have punched your lights out a few times, kill them and then say you had to defend yourself?

    Many adjectives come to mind at the moment but I can't safely write them because my post would definitely be deleted for being impolite to you.

  • 2

    Lieberman2012

    Do you hate African-Americans enough to believe their fears are well-founded? (Since you brought it up, I think the answer is obvious.)

    i dont hate anyone. You are projecting again. Spike Lee was wrong to publicize what he thought was the address of a private citizen. It is an ugly example to set and an irresponsible thing to do. I thought he knew better.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Let me get this straight; according to you, in Florida, if you want to kill someone and get away with it, you simply follow them, act in a threatening fashion, stalk them aggressively, and then when they have punched your lights out a few times, kill them and then say you had to defend yourself?

    No offense but also let me get this straight. This was a pre-meditated murder? Zimmerman planned on shooting Martin knowing that Martin would be so cooperative as to give him a beating for cover in advance?

  • -2

    yabits

    Tonight on The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell, Joe Morgan, the "African-American friend" of George Zimmerman was grilled on his relationship with Zimmerman

    Correction: The friend's name is Joe Oliver, not Morgan. I regret the mistake.

  • 0

    yabits

    No offense but also let me get this straight. This was a pre-meditated murder?

    The lead detective on this case -- the first law enforcement professional to see how the pieces of evidence fit together -- was not buying that this was an event of pure self-defense on the part of Zimmerman and recommended he be arrested on manslaughter charges. Not pre-meditated murder. Manslaughter.

    If you stalk someone aggressively -- someone who is completely innocent -- you put them in the position where it can be argued that they have every right to defend themselves against you.

    The fact that the lead detective recommended Zimmerman's arrest is something that no conservative defender of Zimmerman has commented on, as of yet. It may be the most important single fact about the handling of this case by the state of Florida to this point. And that has nothing to do with Zimmerman or Martin. It is whether a community can expect honest and important police work to be done in an extremely tragic and sensitive case.

    The state attorney of Florida who ordered charges against Zimmerman be dropped was not present in the Sanford Police Department office the night of the incident when Zimmerman was brought in for questioning. The lead detective was, of course.

    Something about Zimmerman's story does not add up: Especially the part where he tracks down Martin and then suddenly decides to give it all up and return to his vehicle, when he knows he just called 911 and officers have been dispatched to the scene. No witness -- none of them -- has reported seeing how the scuffle first started. Nobody reported seeing Martin throw the first punch.

  • -2

    yabits

    i dont hate anyone. You are projecting again.

    Sure you do. And the projection you speak of would be like pointing a flashlight at the sun.

    Spike Lee was wrong to publicize what he thought was the address of a private citizen.

    That he was wrong does not give credence to the insinuation that innocent people need to fear for their lives. What readers know is that if an innocent person was ever harmed in the aftermath of this terrible injustice, they can count on you to gleefully point it out and continue to fan the flames.

  • -2

    yabits

    That is false. The right has good reason to be contemptuous towards the media for the way this event has been portrayed.

    I don't see the right expressing contempt over the fact that the lead investigator in the case recommended manslaughter charges be brought against Zimmerman from the very start. The right is all contempt and zero shame.

  • -1

    sailwind

    Yabits,

    I don't see the right expressing contempt over the fact that the lead investigator in the case recommended manslaughter charges be brought against Zimmerman from the very start. The right is all contempt and zero shame.

    When you get around to apologizing for calling the Sanford Police Dept "stupid and racists".......from your past posts

    The Sanford Police didn't care about any of that. They were either too stupid or too sympathetic with Zimmerman to ask some very simple questions which would have shattered his claim of "self-defense."

    The real racism in this case applies to the police department of Sanford:

    It was racist for them to believe that Trayvon Martin -- who was a citizen peaceably walking home and had broken no laws -- had no right or claim to self-defense against a strange man who pursued him and caused him to feel threatened.

    You might actually get a comment on your new found praise now for the Sanford Police Department.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - But the main point remains the same: Zimmerman's injuries were neither serious nor obvious.

    Hahahaha. You're a hoot. The fact remains that Zimmerman did have injuries and the injuries, according to eyewitnesses, came from the actions of Martin. Whether you think they were "not serious or obvious" had no effect on Zimmerman's realization that Martin was trying to kill him.

    Do you actually think that anyone who just had their nose broken, had been knocked to the ground, and is now having their head slammed against a concrete sidewalk is going to think that these aren't serious injuries and I can afford to wait a little while longer. Maybe he'll grow tired of trying to kill me?

    When did you decide that Zimmerman was guilty? When you first heard his name mentioned on the internet or when you found out Martin carried Skittles and tea? Maybe it was when Cutcher began making the rounds of the talk shows to say that she HAD NOT SEEN the confrontation or the shooting but was sure that Zimmerman was the bad guy?

  • 0

    DentShop

    The right is all contempt and zero shame.

    Strange, these were two adjectives that fit Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and Spike Lee to a tee.

    All we need now is the fourth Stooge Kanye West to put on his clown hat and head down to Flawda.

  • -1

    yabits

    When you get around to apologizing for calling the Sanford Police Dept "stupid and racists".......from your past posts

    Huh?? The mayor and city manager of Sanford so much as agreed with much of that assessment when they expressed they had zero confidence in the chief of police. Organizations and fish rot from the head down, and Lee -- as leader of the entire department -- should have put himself on the line to defend his lead investigator's position on the matter. In doing so, he would have defended the integrity of his department and the City of Sanford.

    It is extremely unfortunate that the good people on the Sanford Police Department had such an awful person in charge. I stand by my position.

    Nonetheless, I find it interesting that someone would not have the integrity to admit the truth and significance of a key fact about the case of George Zimmerman unless some outside party not related to the case apologizes for stating what the lead investigator made obvious: that letting Zimmerman go without charging him was ethically wrong as well as a serious blunder by the Department.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    PeaceWarrior - Let me get this straight; according to you, in Florida, if you want to kill someone and get away with it, you simply follow them, act in a threatening fashion, stalk them aggressively, and then when they have punched your lights out a few times, kill them and then say you had to defend yourself?

    Hahahaha. You're a hoot. Both men had a right to be where they were. Martin could just have walked 10 to 100 meters to his home and closed and locked the door. Zimmerman was a part of the neighborhood's Neighborhood Watch organization. Everyone living there was aware that the neighborhood had a neighborhood watch group. That includes Martin's father, who lived there. Martin probably noticed the iron fence and gate that surrounded the neighborhood. Martin probably noticed the "Neighborhood Watch" signs that surrounded the neighborhood.

    Who could possibly be walking around inside a secure and fenced neighborhood watch community? Maybe the neighbors? No, that's not a possibility. Only people with Skittles and tea are allowed to walk around at night? Martin could have just gone home. Instead, Martin decided to confront Zimmerman. Martin decided to punch Zimmerman. Martin decided to jump on Zimmerman and slam his head into the concrete sidewalk.

    Martin made a lot of bad decisions.

  • -1

    yabits

    You might actually get a comment on your new found praise now for the Sanford Police Department.

    I praise the actions of the lead investigator and the officers who attempted to render aid to Trayvon Martin. That is far from the entire department -- which should hang their collective heads in deep shame.

  • 1

    yabits

    Do you actually think that anyone who just had their nose broken

    Where is the medical report confirming that injury? Where is the evidence other than Zimmerman's word?

    You actually believe that Zimmerman chased down his "suspect" after calling 911 and, with police on the way and suspect cornered, suddenly decided to just turn his back on Martin and walk back to his vehicle? You really believe that story?

    Whether you think they were "not serious or obvious" had no effect on Zimmerman's realization that Martin was trying to kill him.

    No right-winger has supplied any motive for Martin to try to kill Zimmerman. What would have been Martin's motive? It was Zimmerman who went out of his way to stalk and corner Martin. (According to Zimmerman's story, he was not on duty as watch, but was heading out to do some shopping when he spotted Trayvon.) It was Zimmerman who carried the weapon.

    When did you decide that Zimmerman was guilty?

    A dishonest question -- which is par for the course for right-wingers. There is no way to decide Zimmerman is guilty except by due process, which should not have been left up to the police at the scene. I decided early on that no way should Zimmerman have been set free without facing manslaughter charges at the least. The lead investigator in the case agrees with my position -- which I took before his position on the matter was revealed.

  • -4

    arrestpaul

    yabits - I don't see the right expressing contempt over the fact that the lead investigator in the case recommended manslaughter charges be brought against Zimmerman from the very start.

    Why should anyone express contempt? One police officer recommended filing charges. The States Attorney, who has a better understanding of the law, did not recommend filling charges. No charges were "dropped" because no charges were filed. The lynch mob recommends that Zimmerman be convicted. The lynch mob also recommends that Zimmerman be captured. The lynch mob also recommends that Zimmerman be murdered. The lynch mob doesn't even care who gets murdered because they are giving out the wrong address for Zimmerman.

    How does the lynch mob ignore the fact that an incredible 49 people were wounded, of which 10 died, in gang shootings in the city of Chicago from 5 p.m. Friday, Mar 16th to 6 a.m. Monday the 19th, according to information compiled by the Chicago Tribune. Is it because it's the President's political home town or the fact that Chicago still doesn't allow it's residents to arm themselves against street thugs?

  • -3

    yabits

    Both men had a right to be where they were.

    Here is where you're being both wrong and dishonest -- again.

    Zimmerman had no inherent right to chase and hunt down Martin with a loaded weapon. Martin was not on Zimmerman's property, nor was he on anyone's private property. Before he gave pursuit, the state of Zimmerman's attitude was revealed in his words, "We've had a lot of break-ins in the neighborhood", and "These a-holes always get away." It was Zimmerman who already had Martin pegged as a suspected criminal before he decided to confront him carrying a weapon.

    The right of the innocent person (Martin) NOT to be pursued and accosted by an armed stranger who has mistaken him for a criminal far outweighs any right or authority of Zimmerman to behave as he did. Martin's basic civil rights were egregiously violated by Zimmerman's actions.

    Martin could just have walked 10 to 100 meters to his home and closed and locked the door.

    Had Zimmerman not accosted him, that's exactly what would have happened.

  • -2

    yabits

    One police officer recommended filing charges. The States Attorney, who has a better understanding of the law, did not recommend filling charges

    Not just an ordinary police officer: The lead investigator in the case. The first person in the department to try to fit the pieces and statements and evidence from witnesses, the officers on the scene, and Zimmerman, and come to a conclusion. The State's Attorney did not have the close physical proximity to the evidence -- especially to Zimmerman. The lead investigator saw Zimmerman and the extent of his "injuries" and ruled out self-defense as the only possible explanation.

    There are other people in the Florida justice system who have a better understanding of the law than the States Attorney. That's why he was replaced with a special prosecutor.

    The lynch mob recommends that Zimmerman be convicted.

    I am not surprised that none of your right-wing cohorts objects to your use of that term -- which speaks volumes about you. The people seeking justice in this case simply want the recommendation of the lead investigator to be respected and followed. Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter and a jury of his peers hear the same evidence that the lead investigator was presented with.

    How does the lynch mob ignore the fact that an incredible 49 people were wounded, of which 10 died, in gang shootings in the city of Chicago

    I would call that a statement formed out of sheer race-hatred. What happened in Sanford has no relation to Chicago.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Here is where you're being both wrong and dishonest -- again.

    Zimmerman had no inherent right to chase and hunt down Martin with a loaded weapon. Martin was not on Zimmerman's property, nor was he on anyone's private property. Before he gave pursuit, the state of Zimmerman's attitude was revealed in his words, "We've had a lot of break-ins in the neighborhood", and "These a-holes always get away." It was Zimmerman who already had Martin pegged as a suspected criminal before he decided to confront him carrying a weapon.

    Another personal attack? Both men had a right to be where they were. Let me rephrase it. There is no law against Martin walking in the neighborhood. There is no law against Zimmerman walking in his own neighborhood. There is no law against Zimmerman following Martin with or without a firearm. Zimmerman is allowed by city/State law to carry a firearm. Zimmerman was not denied the right to carry a firearm by the federal national firearms background check. There is no law that prevents either man from asking questions of the other one.

    There are laws against punching someone in the face. There are laws against trying to crush someone's skull against a concrete sidewalk. Eyewitnesses say Martin was sitting on Zimmerman, punching him and banging his head on the concrete.

    Martin decided to confront and attack Zimmerman. Zimmerman had given up following Martin and was returning to his car. Martin could have just gone home. Martin made the wrong choice.

    The lynch mobs don't care about what the law says. The lynch mobs want Zimmerman dead or convicted. The lynch mobs don't really care who is murdered by the lynch mobs if it leads them to Zimmerman.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - There are other people in the Florida justice system who have a better understanding of the law than the States Attorney. That's why he was replaced with a special prosecutor.

    I am not surprised that none of your right-wing cohorts objects to your use of that term -- which speaks volumes about you. The people seeking justice in this case simply want the recommendation of the lead investigator to be respected and followed. Zimmerman should be charged with manslaughter and a jury of his peers hear the same evidence that the lead investigator was presented with.

    Another personal attack? The States Attorney can file chages at any time. They still have no reason to file charges. A special prosecutor was appointed to address the claims of the lynch mob. Has the special prosecutor filed charges against Zimmerman? Have any of the eyewitnesses who actually saw Martin hitting Zimmerman changed their statements?

    The lynch mob types can still hope that the FBI will find something to charge Zimmerman with or they can continue to try to track Zimmerman down and murder him.

  • 1

    Himajin

    Referring to a CNN boradcast:

    "I wonder if any of the people screaming for Zimmerman’s head would change their opinions if they knew the facts that are emerging about what really happened on February 26. On yesterday’s show, we played you the audio of a local news report about the incident. The reporter stated that Trayvon Martin’s father told the lead investigator that, in his opinion, the cries for help heard on the 911 tape were NOT his son’s. Now, there’s more evidence suggesting that Mr. Zimmerman did act in self-defense. From the Los Angeles Times:

    The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel’s report.
    
    One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense."
    

    Whether it was self-defense or not will be decided by the courts. However, in the court of internet mob rule and irresponsible media, the fact that the FATHER of the victim said the cries for help on the 911 tape were NOT his son's (and I read it in more than one source when it first appeared), tabloid media has flooded the internet with sensational 'Hear the cries of Trayvon before he was shot' articles that effectively buried the original reports.

    It's shameful, the grandstanding on both sides.

  • 1

    Himajin

    Sorry, due to the formatting of original the quote got messed up. It looked find until I posted it. The part starting at 'Whether it was self defense or not' is mine, the rest is the article. I will try to get it up here again.

    "The Orlando Sentinel is reporting that police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel’s report.
    
    One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense."
    
  • 1

    Himajin

    No, it wont' copy, here's the link...

    http://teriobrien.com/2012/03/26/orlando-sentinel-reports-trayvon-was-the-aggressor/

  • -1

    TigermothII

    Totally Misleading and giving the absolute false impression that the original initial police reports (All of them from all the initial officers on the scene) did not mention any injuries to Zimmerman. Of the three officers the one of the three that wasn't applying CPR to Martin and who was tasked with detaining Zimmerman only mentions the injuries quite clearly and as a matter of fact states he is still bleeding from them in his report. The other two Officers weren't tasked with detaining Zimmerman were to busy at the time trying to save a life. I think I can forgive the two Officers for not taking a little time out of the breath and chest compressions to stop get a good look at Zimmerman so they could have put in to their report that evening.

    Maybe the first two, or even the third officer interviewing Zimmerman at the scene might not have had 'time' to notice and really note Zimmerman's injuries. But given that a shooting death occurred one would assume - unless this place in Florida is Mayberry and they only have Andy and Barney to investigate - that many police officers arrived quickly on scene after that. If Zimmerman had a broken nose and Martin was slamming his head into the ground there would be damage, and a hospital report and subsequent photographs by the police to show this. They even take photographs in such instances in the lame police force where I live. Let's see those reports - that would tell much.

    C'mon. I'm the last person to pull out the race card here - but all of us know that had a black kid shot a white kid there would have been a million cops crawling over the scene, an extensive investigation, media coverage from the start, and most likely the shooter would still be in jail.

    I'll even give it to you that it very might have gone down the way you seem to insist. Martin probably saw this guy following him, got pissed about it and confronted Zimmerman. Of course Martin is no choir boy - he's also not 12 and 5 feet tall; he probably confronted Zimmerman, might have gotten 'gangsta' on him and started beating the crap out of him.

    So what? What does that show us? Well, it shows us that despite our (white people's) insistence that it was not racist, in quite obviously was. Martin was in fact just walking down the street. Zimmerman never reported that he saw him doing anything - certainly not trying to break into a house or a car or anything like that. So why did he 'look suspicious' to Zimmerman? Because he was black. Now you contend that Martin could have just walked away. Certainly he could have. But have you given any thought to how you might feel if some guy challenged you as to why you were in the neighborhood - and you knew the reason was because of your skin color. You might want to pound on the guy too. The open and close part is that Zimmerman, armed with a pistol, followed him, with the end result that he shot and killed him. The in-between part, while important for determining degree of intent and guilt, is irrelevant. Yes, Martin could have walked away - but he should never have been approached by a gun wielding Zimmerman to begin with. Even if Martin were trying to kill Zimmerman, the whole thing was instigated by someone assuming that a guy walking through the neighborhood 'must be up to something'. I live on a private, cobble-stoned street, and we've had a rash of cars being broken into for GPS systems left in the car. If I saw a black man walking down the street I wouldn't give a second glance (well, partly because I live in a well-integrated neighborhood where seeing folks of many races walking down the street is part of the landscape). I certainly wouldn't call 911 just because they were walking down the street. And if I suspected they were trying to break into a car, I would then call the police - I would not follow them with a handgun.

    I should also add that the fact that we even discuss whether he was 'clean cut' or a 'gangsta thug' again illustrates racism. Kids do what their peers do in physical appearance and attitude. It doesn't mean he was a thug.

  • 1

    peanut666

    smithinjapanMar. 28, 2012 - 07:31AM JST

    peanut666: Meant to add that if you're going to refer to a picture that has no context to imply that Trayvon was indeed suspicious looking and not the angel other pictures present, you also need to keep in mind that the media is now showing a picture of a clean-cut, suit wearing and a nice smile Zimmerman and not so much the 'suspicious' looking Zimmerman in the orange prison uniform (or so it SHOULD be, if it's not).

    That is EXACTLY what I am saying. The media are showing all these cutie pictures of Trayvon when he was younger rather than what he looks like presently. That is how biased the news media is. The picture I shown was a more current picture of what he looks like. He ain't no candy loving nerdy kid. He's a drug using, football playing punk who's 17 years old, weighs almost 180lbs.

  • 3

    Wolfpack

    No. It's dumb and disingenuous to claim you are waiting for the facts to come in and then claim the case reminds of the Duke lacrosse incident.

    It might be dumb or disingenuous to you but not to me. The similarity is that there has been a rush to judgement based on race before any substantial information is known about the case. The "fact" that it was assumed that Zimmerman was a white man when in actuality he is no more white than President Obama is a perfect example of the misinformation pushed by the media that has led to rush to judge him guilty of a being a racist murderer.

    As soon as Zimmerman got out of his car with the sole purpose of pursuing Martin -- who was just trying to get home -- it is actually Martin who could more reasonably claim self-defense. Zimmerman didn't identify himself. To Martin, he was a threatening stranger wanting God only knows what.

    I can agree that given what is so far known about the case Zimmerman looks to be in the wrong by having followed Martin after being specifically told not to be the 911 operator (not a law enforcement officer by the way). Is that a crime? I don't know. Even if that were a crime, I can still easily imagine a scenario whereby Zimmerman was actually the victim. The story from Zimmerman so far seems to be that he followed Martin but that Martin lost him. Zimmerman than says that while walking back to his truck, Martin attacked him. Police have said that Zimmerman has sustained some injuries so it appears that there was a physical confrontation prior to the gun being fired. Zimmerman's story is plausible but there isn't enough known at this time to determine whether or not it is what really happened. Martin cannot tell his side of course. However, forensic evidence may help to fill in for his missing testimony.

    People should keep an open mind and not rush to judgement. Al Sharpton has that covered already, he doesn't need any help.

  • -1

    peanut666

    yabitsMar. 27, 2012 - 09:08AM JST No. Reports have him weighing around 140 lbs.

    Wrong. You are spreading lies again. Trayvon was a strapping young man of 17 years - 6'2", depending on reports 170lbs. Here is a picture of him. This was from his friends cell phone:

    http://www.wesh.com/image/30768368/detail.html

    yabitsMar. 27, 2012 - 09:08AM JST Quite a speculation there. Why aren't you in school? It was 7 PM in the evening. Zimmerman claims he was going >back to his vehicle when he was "attacked" by Trayvon -- a guy nearly 100 lbs. lighter and 10 years younger. Trayvon >was not known by any of his peers as any kind of a fighter.

    Again more lies. Here are the facts, obtained from Trayvon's high school record and reported to the media: Martin was suspended from high school after he was found to be in possession of an empty marijuana baggie, according to the Sentinel. Martin's school has a zero-tolerance drug policy, the newspaper added.

    Here is the link to the Orlando Sentinel newspaper. The account Zimmerman gave police has been corroborated by witnesses.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-26/news/os-trayvon-martin-zimmerman-account-20120326_1_miami-schools-punch-unarmed-black-teenager

    yabitsMar. 27, 2012 - 09:08AM JST He was wasn't considered physical enough to make his high school's football team and was more of a studious >type -- who loved math and science.

    You are wrong again. Here is a picture of Trayvon in his football jersey.

    http://www.bet.com/content/betcom/news/national/2012/03/16/the-cruel-fatethat-came-to-an-average-kid-trayvon-martin/_jcr_content/featuredMedia/newsitemimage_0.newsimage.dimg/031612-national-trayvon-martin.jpg

    Here is a picture of Trayvon in his hoodie

    http://static.thehollywoodgossip.com/images/gallery/trayvon-martin-hoodie_285x295.jpg

    The FACT is that profiling IS a tool used by law enforcement. There is no other way to determine who or what is suspicious. If you look like a criminal, then you will be suspected as a criminal. That's how you prevent crime. Most of you are NOT soldiers or law enforcement and you whine and cry about why a crime isn't prevented. The only way to prevent crime is to stop and questions anyone who looks suspicious. If you don't like it, then I suggest stop dressing and behaving like a criminal. That is a reality of life.

  • -2

    yabits

    Wrong. You are spreading lies again. Trayvon was a strapping young man of 17 years - 6'2", depending on reports 170lbs. Here is a picture of him. This was from his friends cell phone:

    Too funny: The photo you show has the words: "Courtesy of Jerome Horton." Jerome Horton had known Trayvon Martin since he was five years old and had coached him football before Martin entered high school. A sports coach knows a lot about a person's personality and traits, as well as physical aspects: Nancy Grace interviewed Horton and Horton confirmed that Trayvon weighed "145, give or take five pounds." He also indicated that Trayvon was never an aggressive player.

    The photo shows extremely slender shoulders -- what you call "strapping" -- and that's a real laugh.

    You are wrong again. Here is a picture of Trayvon in his football jersey.

    Trayvon Martin attended Dr. Michael M. Krop High School in north Dade County. The school's mascot -- emblazoned on their uniforms -- is the Lightning. The picture shown in his jersey is a much younger Trayvon and the team is clearly not the Lightning. Trayvon was not considered physical enough to make his high school varsity football team. He was a stringbean whose height had shot up before he had a chance to fill out.

    So it appears that it is you who are wrong.

    Again more lies. Here are the facts, obtained from Trayvon's high school record and reported to the media:

    Where is the lie? You speculated that Zimmerman asked Trayvon, "Why aren't you at school?" It was after 7 PM in the evening when Zimmerman confronted Martin. Who is supposed to attend high school after 7 PM? Furthermore, Trayvon was killed on the evening of February 26. The 26th was a Sunday. Why would Zimmerman have asked Trayvon why he wasn't in school when it was a Sunday evening?

    You accuse me of spreading lies, but readers can clearly see that it is your information and conclusions that are totally off-base. Thank you for making it so easy to prove.

    • Moderator

      Readers, please do not bicker and do not be acrimonious toward one another.

  • -2

    yabits

    actuality he is no more white than President Obama is a perfect example of the misinformation pushed by the media that has led to rush to judge him guilty of a being a racist murderer.

    I have not engaged in the "what-shade-of-brown?" game that appears to be of intense interest to the right wing.

    What indicates to me that Zimmerman had a problem with members of a certain group are his statements recorded on the 911 calls. Even Zimmerman's "African-American supporter", Joe Oliver, has admitted that he and his daughter both find it plausible that the racial slur uttered by Zimmerman in disgust was exactly that. (Oliver then strained credibility by excusing the slur because of how some people in Louisiana refer to Cajuns.)

  • 0

    peanut666

    yabitsMar. 29, 2012 - 06:19AM JST You accuse me of spreading lies, but readers can clearly see that it is your information and conclusions that are totally >off-base. Thank you for making it so easy to prove.

    The facts can be obtained here:

    http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2012/03/28/trayvon-martin-the-latest-media-narrative-continues-to-crumble-under-the-weight-of-lies-image-of-trayvon-the-troubled-teen-worsens/

    • Moderator

      Readers, there is to be no more talk of lies.

  • -1

    Himajin

    The similarity is that there has been a rush to judgement based on race before any substantial information is known about the case.

    Wolfpack I agree. But of course, in the case that a white is accused, it's not racist to do that!

  • -1

    yabits

    More developments in the police investigation in the Trayvon Martin affair:

    It is now reported that Sanford police chief, Bill Lee, and Florida State Attorney (now recused/replaced), Norman Wolfinger, met in person on the night of the shooting of Trayvon Martin. This is an extremely unusual shift in protocol for these types of events. It appears that pressure to release Zimmerman was applied from this point -- before all the facts of the case were in.

    There was a very interesting interview with the mother of a young teen who was outside near the place where the shooting of Trayvon occurred. This young person was walking his dog that Sunday evening and saw one person lying on the ground and crying for help. (He says he definitely saw only one person and not two people involved in a struggle.)

    His dog got away from him and he had to get out of the line of view to retrieve the animal. It was then that he heard a single gunshot and the the cries suddenly silenced.

    Plausible scenario: Martin attacks Zimmerman and lands a punch or two sending Zimmerman falling backwards and hitting his head on the ground or pavement. Zimmerman is pissed and gets up and the older, stronger and heavier man whips up on Martin, leaving him on the ground crying for help. Zimmerman walks away for a short distance -- where our young teen comes into the line of view of Martin -- the dog gets away and in that time, Zimmerman returns in a heat of rage and pulls out his handgun and puts Martin out of his misery.

    The main supporting evidence: The cries. They are very consistent and steady. When a scuffle is going on and blows are being exchanged, a voice emitting a cry is likely to be more punctuated -- either through the strain of striking a blow or through being hit. Someone was on the ground -- one person -- and crying for help. This is what the young man walking the dog saw and heard.

  • -1

    yabits

    @ peanut666

    Conservative Tree House?

    The tactic of making a black "suspect" as threatening as possible in order to justify killing him is as old as the hills.

    I have seen the evidence you have presented about Trayvon Martin and found it to be completely unreliable. I have no more to say to you.

  • 1

    knight_of_Honour

    Martin had previously been arrested for dealing drugs and violent acts, he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose knocking him to the ground, which a black witness and others observed. Was Zimmerman stupid in his actions, yes, did he shoot in self defense, yes also. Should Zimmerman's license to carry be revoked, probably, but he did not commit a criminal act. Martin was not the innocent that he is being portrayed as. If he had not attacked Zimmerman he would still be alive.

  • 0

    yabits

    Martin had previously been arrested for dealing drugs and violent acts

    There is no evidence that Trayvon Martin had ever been arrested for anything. There is no evidence that he was dealing drugs. There is no evidence that he ever committed a violent act.

    (Being suspended from school is vastly different from being arrested.)

    This is yet another right-wing smear attempt on Martin's character.

  • 1

    yabits

    Breaking news:

    Major media outlets are playing video of George Zimmerman arriving at the police station on the night of the shooting of Trayvon Martin. The lighting is clear and the front and back of Zimmerman's head can clearly be seen. He gets out of the car in handcuffs needing no assistance whatsoever.

    No broken nose and no injuries can be seen to the back of his head whatsoever. The guy doesn't appear to have a mark on him. Not a mark, and certainly no blood or sign of a broken nose. No wonder the lead investigator doesn't buy the "self-defense" story.

    People should try to redouble their efforts at casting Trayvon Martin as a "dangerous" character because Zimmerman sure isn't showing it.

  • 0

    yabits

    Richard Kurtz, the director of the funeral home that prepared Trayvon Martin's body for burial, was asked if there was any evidence of cuts or bruises to Martin's hands and knuckles that would be consistent with Zimmerman's story that Martin was giving him a pounding.

    Kurtz claims that Martin's hands bore no such marks.

  • -2

    Himajin

    Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with this discussion. The issue is that the popular press and the hordes on Facebook are trying to prevent someone accused of a crime or their Constitutional right to due process and a fair trial. The Constitution is at stake.

    Unfortunately in the US whites are automatically considered guilty based on accusation alone...the Facebook and Twitter hordes get to work churning out unconfirmed reports to fan the flames and outright smear campaigns begin. Were this done to a black suspect riots would ensue. Why, only bringing up the facts that this boy had a history of drug use brought out another chorus of wailing about the smearing of an angel among us, while the Black Panthers have put a bounty of $10,000 on Zimmerman's head, that has been in place 5 days without the Department of Justice doing anything about it. Spike Lee published what he thought was Zimmerman's address, and told people to go get him. Also illegal, but I don't see Mr. Lee getting arrested......in addition it was the wrong address, and an elderly couple has fled their home in fear for their lives.

    Who's racist?

  • 1

    Himajin

    'deprive someone of' sorry....

  • -1

    Himajin

    Obama should be trying to defuse this, instead of making emotional statements like 'if I had a son he'd look like Trayvon'.....he should be alarmed at the PP bounty on Zimmerman's head and should be calling for rational thought. He is the Commander in Chief, protector of the Constitution and due process is going down the toilet.

  • 0

    yabits

    The issue is that the popular press and the hordes on Facebook are trying to prevent someone accused of a crime or their Constitutional right to due process and a fair trial.

    As of yet, no one has been accused of a crime. One can only wonder what you are talking about.

    Unfortunately in the US whites are automatically considered guilty based on accusation alone.

    Huh? Between Martin and Zimmerman, who is white?

    Why, only bringing up the facts that this boy had a history of drug use...

    There was no evidence of drugs in Martin's system at the time of death.

    Who's racist?

    Head to your nearest mirror.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Being liberal or conservative has nothing to do with this discussion

    If you are yabits it has everything to do with the discussion.

    If Zimmerman had used his mother's maiden name his interest in this story would be close to zero.

  • 0

    Himajin

    yabits, are you blind? He's been convicted in the press, Facebook, Twitter, everywhere.

    Zimmerman is Hispanic...converted to white by the hordes.

    Ok, it's been officially declared by yabits that asking for due process while white is racist.

    America is screwed.

  • 0

    yabits

    Obama should be trying to defuse this, instead of making emotional statements like 'if I had a son he'd look like Trayvon'.....he should be alarmed at the PP bounty on Zimmerman's head and should be calling for rational thought. He is the Commander in Chief, protector of the Constitution and due process is going down the toilet.

    This is a hysterical comment. "Help us, Obama! Save us from the angry Negroes!" (Well it's not just African-Americans who are angry and anguished over this. But rest assured, the ranks of those who hate and fear black people are thinning.)

    May God bless President Obama for expressing his concern and the need for soul-searching, was well as getting the Department of Justice involved in this. They need to be and the whole truth of this needs to come out. As more pieces of evidence come in, this is looking more and more like an out-and-out cold-blooded killing of Trayvon Martin.

    and should be calling for rational thought

    Physician, heal thyself.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Spike Lee, race hustler and admirer of the neo-segregationist rabid anti-Semite "Reverend" Louis Farakkhan, refuses to apologize for violating Twitter's clearly policy and making public to the 250 000 twits who "follow" him the names and address of an elderly Fla. couple he mistakenly believed to be the shooter Zimmerman. The couple in question have had to vacate their home after receiving threats and hate mail.

  • 0

    yabits

    If Zimmerman had used his mother's maiden name his interest in this story would be close to zero.

    Delighted to see the haters of liberals (as well as haters of the average African-American) going off the deep end and being so obviously delusional about this. Hatred will do that.

    Anyone who the police release without charges after the cold-blooded killing of an innocent kid would be of tremendous interest and concern. The liberal advocacy group The Innocence Project has taken great interest in the cases of people of all races and creeds.

  • 0

    Himajin

    It is not hysterical....it is a reasoned comment. Silly person you are.

    Silly, silly silly.

    Where on earth do you get

    ""Help us, Obama! Save us from the angry Negroes!" "

    From

    "Obama should be trying to defuse this, instead of making emotional statements like 'if I had a son he'd look like Trayvon'.....he should be alarmed at the PP bounty on Zimmerman's head and should be calling for rational thought. He is the Commander in Chief, protector of the Constitution and due process is going down the toilet."

    'Hysterical' does not apply to me on this thread.

  • 0

    yabits

    Spike Lee, race hustler and admirer of the neo-segregationist rabid anti-Semite "Reverend" Louis Farakkhan, refuses to apologize for violating Twitter's clearly policy and making public to the 250 000 twits who "follow" him the names and address of an elderly Fla. couple he mistakenly believed to be the shooter Zimmerman. The couple in question have had to vacate their home after receiving threats and hate mail.

    That's right. Keep trying to foment hatred for African-Americans.

    As the Zimmerman's case continues to crumble and the anger by decent people over the senseless, cold-blooded killing of a young kid proves justified, it's time for the race-haters to reach for their favorite black targets.

  • 1

    yabits

    Where on earth do you get...

    I get it from the ludicrous, ridiculous comment that Obama should be trying to defuse this. (All you right-wingers heaped tons of scorn on him for the "beer summit.)

    Actually, President Obama is doing exactly the right things. Getting the DOJ involved is just what is needed.

  • 0

    Himajin

    That's right. Keep trying to foment hatred for African-Americans.

    Oh yes, yabits can't admit that what Mr. Lee did was irresponsible and almost got an elderly couple in their 70s killed.

    Killing a kid in cold blood is wrong.

    Ignoring due process is not.

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    Yahoo reports that Spike Lee has finally issued an apology for his apparent call for vigilante justice.

  • 1

    Himajin

    A call to end the vigilantism is not a bad idea. Surely he can see where this is going.

    If I were afraid of blacks, my home when not in Japan wouldn't be in Atlanta, sweetie...

  • 0

    yabits

    Oh yes, yabits can't admit that what Mr. Lee did was irresponsible and almost got an elderly couple in their 70s killed.

    Spike Lee is irrelevant to the story. What he did was irresponsible.

    There are white people who hate African-Americans enough to actually believe an innocent elderly couple "almost got" killed. Not all angry people react like the worst of those whites who are racist, and people need to stop projecting their own brand of hatred onto others. African-Americans know all too well what it means to be a victim of real racism, and Trayvon Martin will stand as the latest example.

  • -1

    Stu Katz

    There are reports of Zimmerman, son of a retired judge, having escaped arrest on numerous occasions in the past. There are also images of Zimmerman soon after the shooting, and his face looks fine (not injured). His excuses are running out

  • -1

    Lieberman2012

    That's right. Keep trying to foment hatred for African-Americans

    You are a hoot, yabits. Lee could have gotten that elderly couple killed but it is those who call him out for his contempt of due process who "foment" hatred. As the elderly couple's son rightly pointed out someone with Lee's popularity is bound to have among his followers any number of people (black, white, whatever...) who are mentally unstable enough to decide to take the law into their own hands and bring harm to two elderly people completely unrelated to this case.

  • 1

    yabits

    There are also images of Zimmerman soon after the shooting, and his face looks fine (not injured)

    Take a look at how normally Zimmerman moves about. Nothing like a guy who felt he was being gravely beaten or had his head repeatedly pounded against concrete pavement.

    Not a bandage on him. Note that Zimmerman's attorney -- now proven to be an abject liar -- made public that Zimmerman's cuts were of such a serious nature as to need stitches. Yet in the video we see no blood oozing from a cut deep or long enough to need stitches. Anyone who has ever experienced or dealt with injuries of that type would understand.

    No wonder the lead investigator didn't buy the story of self-defense, and was livid with how it was handled.

  • -1

    yabits

    Lee could have gotten that elderly couple killed...

    Only in the minds of those who believe that African-Americans are capable of the same type of hatred as those fomenting race-hatred via Spike Lee's action.

    Lee's contempt of due process [sic] is an attempt to deflect from the topic at hand: The Sanford Police's and Florida State Attorney's contempt for due process in the handling of the homicide of Trayvon Martin.

    Lee's popularity is bound to have among his followers any number of people (black, white, whatever...) who are mentally unstable enough

    You don't actually believe that. It's why you added Farrakhan to the mix. It's why other racist whites on this board and other places throw out the names of Reverends Sharpton and Jackson as "race-hustlers" for merely seeking truth and justice in a case that the police -- with the exceptions of a few good professionals -- would rather to have swept under the rug.

    As part of the character-assassination campaign of Trayvon Martin, at least one prominent conservative site had to apologize for posting a completely touched up photo of Martin that originated from a white-supremacist, neo-Nazi site. (How could they have been fooled so easily?) But it is the spirit of those elements that pervades the attempt to portray Martin as a dangerous character in the attempt to justify his murder.

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    Many things do not add up about Zimmerman: 1) First, he calls 911 and pursues a suspect.

    If Zimmerman was going to kill someone "in cold blood" why would he provide authorities beforehand with his identity and whereabouts?

    _____________________________________________________________________________\

    Why is MSNBC - "Reverend" Al Sharpton's employer - editing audio evidence for maximum outrage ? This is going to get people injured or killed.

    via http://www.breitbart.com/%20Big-Journalism/2012/03/28/MSNBC-ZImmerman-Ellipses

    MSNBC version : "This guy looks like he's up to no good . . . he looks black," Zimmerman told a police dispatcher..."

    The actual quote, in context:

    ZIMMERMAN:This guy looks like he's up to no good, [begin ellipsis] or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

    911 DISPATCHER: Okay, is this guy, is he white, black, or Hispanic? [end ellipsis]

    ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.

    Shame on these hacks.

    Finally, why arent those who profess to be truly interested in justice trying to find what influence Zimmerman's father ( retired judge, I believe) may have had in this case? If there is criminal malfeasance here I suspect it is a result of the "guardian values" of the local law enforcement / justice system ("protect our own") that got any consideration of a manslaughter charge shelved.

  • 0

    yabits

    If Zimmerman was going to kill someone "in cold blood" why would he provide authorities beforehand with his identity and whereabouts?

    Gee, that's easy. Zimmerman didn't intitally set out to kill Martin in cold blood.

    But Zimmerman has had a documented history of problems handing anger, requiring him to take anger management sessions. (Just the kind of guy the state of Florida OK's to carry a weapon.) Martin may have smacked him -- his face doesn't show any signs of anything beyond that -- and Zimmerman just couldn't handle it.

    We know now that Zimmerman and his team of people close to him are lying. No way does his head show lesions deep enough to need stitches.

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    You don't actually believe that. It's why you added Farrakhan to the mix. It's why other racist whites on this board

    blah blah blah

    what proof do you have that I am 100 percent "white" ? Where do you get off telling people like himajin and I who we are? In Obama's America I would , depending on where I lived, be able to game the system and qualify for "minority" status, if I chose to do so. But I would not dishonor my deceased grandfather that way. He fought genuine prejudice, of the sort that stunted and ruined careers, and frustrated God-given gifts.

  • -2

    arrestpaul

    yabits - We know now that Zimmerman and his team of people close to him are lying. No way does his head show lesions deep enough to need stitches.

    Hahahaha. "We" also know that, according to the preliminary police report, Zimmerman was treated by the SFD (fire department paramedics) at the scene of the shooting before Zimmerman was transported to the police station. The lynch mob types don't seem to remember that.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Only in the minds of those who believe that African-Americans are capable of the same type of hatred as those fomenting race-hatred via Spike Lee's action.

    Why would Spike Lee post anyone's address in a racially tense situation? Lee was bird dogging Zimmerman's address for the unstable lynch mob types. Maybe Lee wanted to collect a part of the $10,000 that the New Black Panther party was offering for Zimmerman's murder? The fact that Lee posted the WRONG address shows just how incredibly ignorant of reality that Lee actually is. He didn't even care who would be killed.

  • -2

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Delighted to see the haters of liberals (as well as haters of the average African-American) going off the deep end and being so obviously delusional about this. Hatred will do that.

    Anyone who the police release without charges after the cold-blooded killing......

    What "cold-blooded killing" are you alluding to? You must have decided that Zimmerman was guilty based on the rumor-mongering of the lynch mob bloggers and media types.

  • -4

    arrestpaul

    yabits - I get it from the ludicrous, ridiculous comment that Obama should be trying to defuse this. (All you right-wingers heaped tons of scorn on him for the "beer summit.)

    Actually, President Obama is doing exactly the right things. Getting the DOJ involved is just what is needed.

    Hahahaha. Why would anyone expect Obama to let a crisis go to waste? Just look at those potential voters marching in the streets wearing hoodies.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    Where were Martin's parents while this was going on? Martin was currently suspended for 10 days for having drug residue on him and he had recently been suspended for having an assortment of jewlery in his packback that he didn't know where it could have come from.

    Martin was supposed to be living with his father while on suspension. Martin was shot on Feb 26th but police couldn't find either parent until Feb 28th, in spite of the fact that Zimmerman died in his own neighborhood.

    How do you ignore the fact that your son is missing for 2 days especially when there was a shooting in your own neighborhood?

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Breaking news:

    Major media outlets are playing video of George Zimmerman arriving at the police station on the night of the shooting of Trayvon Martin.

    These same media outlets are ignoring the fact that the preliminary police report clearly states that Zimmerman was treated by the fire department paramedics before the police transported Zimmerman to the police station. A cut on the back of Zimmerman's head can be seen in the police station video if anyone actually looks for it.

  • 2

    Himajin

    There are white people who hate African-Americans enough to actually believe an innocent elderly couple "almost got" killed.

    I didn't say it would be blacks that did it, did I? You seem pretty quick to put racist motives on others....whoever would be willing to go to that house and try to get Zimmerman for the reward money would likely go off half-cocked and the elderly couple would have been at risk. They were already having people come to the house and having things thrown at the house despite it not even being in a gated community. Not even in the same area as the Zimmerman's house. This is the mentality of people who obey Tweets and turn to vigilantism, white or black. I never said it would be blacks that would go to that address, do you assume that only blacks follow Lee's page, or that only blacks Twitter? I sure don't. Any weirdo of any color who wanted $10,000 could have caused that couple harm.

    The New Black Panthers who posted the bounty offer, are I believe, black, or can whites be Black Panthers?

  • 2

    smithinjapan

    Lieberman: "ZIMMERMAN: He looks black."

    He LOOKS black, as in he couldn't see him clearly. And here you guys like peanuts hypocritically posting 'scary' pictures of Trayvon's face (from a cell phone pic, I might add) as justification for Zimmerman being suspicious when he couldn't even see the kid's face by your own admittance!

    And while you're referring to yahoo stories, don't forget to refer to the one where video footage clearly depicts a Zimmerman with no injuries. Now, arrestpaul tried to cover this up by pointing out Zimmerman was treated on the scene, but I've never, EVER scene the broken nose ('horribly broken' according to him) treated without even a bandaid put on later, and did the person treating Zimmerman on the scene reducing the swelling that would have already been present?

    That's a mighty big crow you guys have gotta get down your throats -- after you pull your feet out of your mouths, of course. :)

  • 2

    Himajin

    Here's a black man asking the same questions...since you can't call him racist, you may just have to answer them-

    "Former NAACP leader Bryant said the rallies organized by Sharpton and Jackson suggest there is an epidemic of "white men killing black young men" while ignoring much more prevalent black-on-black crime.

    "The epidemic is truly black-on-black crime," he said. "The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men."

    Bryant said he wants to see protests about those problems.

    "Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?" he asked. "Why isn't somebody angry about that 6-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?"

    Bryant, an outspoken conservative, predicted that "people like Sharpton and those on the left" will make Martin's death an issue in the presidential race.

    He told the Web site that they will "turn this evolving tragedy of this young man into fodder to say . . . 'If you don't re-elect [President] Obama, then you will have unbridled events or circumstances like this happening in the streets to young men wearing hoodies.'"

    He also blasted Obama for his "nebulous statement" last week in which he said, "If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon."

    "What does that mean?" Bryant asked. "What was the purpose in that?""

    Indeed.

  • 1

    sailwind

    He LOOKS black, as in he couldn't see him clearly.

    As in he already called in a suspicious person in his neighborhood to 9/11 BEFORE he really knew what race he was at the time. Think he would have terminated the call to 9/11 with a ..."Oh, nevermind I see he's a white guy afterall?"

    The initial police report at actual time of the incident clearly states from the Officer that detained him moments after the shooting that Zimmerman nose was bleeding and he had a wound on the back of his head. The video is not detailed enough in resolution to focus in on fine detials as surveillance cameras are not meant to be Hollywood "close-ups".

    Make the case that the Officer at the scene lied about Zimmerman wounds and nose bleeding and demand that the Sanford Police Department dismiss him for perjury on his official Police report instead.

  • -1

    yabits

    Zimmerman clearly does not bear any wounds, and his clothes do not bear any signs of a struggle on the grass and head continuously pounded against pavement that would leave Zimmerman fearing for his very life.

    Clearly either Zimmerman or his attorney (Sonner), or both, have lied when they claimed his head sustained a gash serious enough to require stitches. If that were the case, the folks who "treated" him at the scene -- and we need to hear from them -- would have applied a bandage to at least stop the bleeding. Gashes on the skull bleed a lot and they don't heal within an hour. Zimmerman or his attorney were and are lying. Of course, they have every motivation to lie.

    Zimmerman appears at the station exactly the way he appears the way the first officer on the scene described it. Had Zimmerman been obviously bleeding, any officer or medical professional would have noted it at least in order to make a snap decision as to who needs medical attention more.

    The funeral director who prepared Trayvon's body has reported that there where no signs on Trayvon's hands and knuckles that indicated he could have been pounding someone's head into the pavement or hitting someone hard enough to break their nose.

    The only actual "witness" outside in the area at the time of the shooting was a young teenager walking his dog on a Sunday evening. He reports seeing one person on the ground, and was drawn to the sounds of him crying for help. There was definitely not a struggle for life and death between two people taking place at this time. The young man wanted to go and help him, but his dog got away from him and in the short time it took him to retrieve his dog (still hearing the cries), he heard a single gunshot and the cries were immediately silenced.

    Trayvon's mother is absolutely sure the cries are coming from her son. Mothers can be wrong about some things, but not usually about a cry for help from one of her children.

    While the young teenager definitely saw only one person laying on the ground crying for help, he reported it was too dark in the area to make out the face or identity. But that immediately casts doubt on any other witness story: If he was outside and it was too dark, how could anyone have seen much more detail from inside a lighted dwelling? (I am confident the lead detective picked up on the details of these witness stories when he interviewed them.)

    Listening to the cries, and then watching Zimmerman in the station, it is extremely implausible from his appearance that he was the one on the ground moaning and crying for help that the young man observed less than a minute before hearing the gunshot. The mother of the young man reports that when the lead investigator came to interview them within a day or so, he (the detective) looked very troubled. She reports that he said something to the effect of "there is stereotyping going on." When she asked him what he meant, he said, "You'll have to read between the lines."

    The young man is extremely traumatized by what he witnessed and agonizes over the dog getting away because he was going over to check on the person calling for help. In no way, shape or form does this young man or his mother believe that an act of self-defense was taking place. Remember we have Zimmerman -- who has already lied about the extent of his injuries as needing stitches -- relating a story of Martin locked in a life or death struggle for Zimmerman's gun.

    One thing the lead investigator has indicated is that he is committed to getting the truth of this incident fully out. I believe those in the know fully believe they are sitting on a bombshell -- with good reason. With no physical evidence reported on Trayvon's body to indicate a fight -- other than the gunshot wound that took his life -- and no evidence of the marks of a life-threatening beating to Zimmerman, the self-defense story does not hold water. And the lead investigator knows it.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Gashes on the skull bleed a lot and they don't heal within an hour.

    Umm, Yabits,

    The footage, obtained by ABC News on Wednesday, shows a handcuffed Zimmerman getting out of the police car unaided and walking into the police station where he was taken after the shooting in Sanford, Fla.

    It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

  • -2

    yabits

    As in he already called in a suspicious person in his neighborhood to 9/11 BEFORE he really knew what race he was at the time. Think he would have terminated the call to 9/11 with a ..."Oh, nevermind I see he's a white guy afterall?"

    He wouldn't have said it, and to suggest such a thing is the kind of silliness that I find reassuring in those who defend how the police department handled this, as well as defending Zimmerman.

    Had the suspicious person turned out to have been white, Zimmerman would not have said "These __holes always get away." He certainly wouldn't have uttered a profanity followed by a racial slur meant for blacks. He more than likely would not have followed the person. If he cancelled the call, he simply might have said "Never mind," or "False alarm," and gotten on with his shopping trip.

    Make the case that the Officer at the scene lied about Zimmerman wounds and nose bleeding and demand that the Sanford Police Department dismiss him for perjury on his official Police report instead.

    It won't be the first time an officer misjudged a situation. The people who supposedly administered medical aid to Zimmerman at the scene need to be heard from.

  • -3

    yabits

    Bryant, an outspoken conservative, predicted that "people like Sharpton and those on the left" will make Martin's death an issue in the presidential race.

    Bryant, like most "outspoken conservatives," is pathetic.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Zimmerman would not have said "These __holes always get away."

    True, poor choice of in using ____holes, he should have just used crooks instead. Both words are so "race specific" .

  • -2

    yabits

    It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident.

    Four hours!??

    Ever see what an un-bandaged head wound serious enough to need stitches looks like after four hours?

    By that time, swelling from a broken nose would be evident. A blow hard enough to break a nose is going to leave signs.

  • -3

    yabits

    True, poor choice of in using ____holes, he should have just used crooks instead. Both words are so "race specific"

    That's right, keep up your defense of Zimmerman's actions and words.

    Zimmerman already pegged Martin as a "crook" -- as in "these" -- the moment he identified him as a black person.

  • 3

    sailwind

    Ever see what an un-bandaged head wound serious enough to need stitches looks like after four hours?

    Pretty nasty, actually causes one to actually look at for several seconds.

    ABC did note that at the 49-second mark in the video, one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head for several seconds.

    Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/29/police-surveillance-video-of-zimmerman-may-show-head-injury/#ixzz1qRo4Kbvx

  • 1

    sailwind

    Zimmerman already pegged Martin as a "crook" -- as in "these" -- the moment he identified him as a black person.

    Let's stay with the facts. The moment the 9/11 operator prompted him to identify Martin's race. He did not say anything at all when he first called 9/11 about Martin's race he had to prompted. FACT, Yabits.

  • -1

    yabits

    Pretty nasty, actually causes one to actually look at for several seconds.

    The color of coagulated blood is very dark and, if the wound is serious enough to require stitches -- easily noticeable.

    And why no sign of swelling when one claims their nose has been broken?

    one of the police officers accompanying Zimmerman stops to look at the back of Zimmerman’s head for several seconds.

    Ah, on such fleeting moments do the imaginations run wild. That's right: You have to imagine that Zimmerman's stitches-requiring gash is there as well as his broken nose. Meanwhile, the report from the funeral director indicates no marks on Trayvon's hands that would indicate he got into any kind of fight.

  • -2

    yabits

    Let's stay with the facts. The moment the 9/11 operator prompted him to identify Martin's race. He did not say anything at all when he first called 9/11 about Martin's race he had to prompted. FACT, Yabits.

    Is it too much to ask of you ever to use some common sense?

    What was it about the person that caused Zimmerman to stop his shopping trip and assume the role of super-mall-cop in the first place? I believe he saw the clothing and assumed from that moment the guy was black. He just could not confirm it yet. But the odds were high.

    As soon as Zimmerman confirmed it, out came the "these crooks" and the racial slur. He was now on the hunt.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Is it too much to ask of you ever to use some common sense?

    Common sense tells me that if a person has to be asked what ethnicity the person is after calling 9/11 about a suspicious guy in the neighborhood, that race was not the foremost thing on that persons mind at the time but that the suspicious actions were and it was those suspicions that prompted his call in the first place, not race or profiling or political hackery spin.

    It is on the record with his call.

    ZIMMERMAN:This guy looks like he's up to no good, ........or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

    911 DISPATCHER: Okay, is this guy, is he white, black, or Hispanic?

    ZIMMERMAN: He looks black.

    Common sense tells me a person that has already profiled blacks and harbors a racist bent would have inserted one simple word without even thinking about it in the call to 9/11.

    ZIMMERMAN:This black guy looks like he's up to no good, ........or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

    Common sense tells me after so many discussions with you that you'll counter that Zimmerman was so devious that he hid his racism in the original call to cover his tracks or is latent denial of it.

    .

  • -2

    yabits

    Common sense tells me that if a person has to be asked what ethnicity the person is after calling 9/11 about a suspicious guy in the neighborhood, that race was not the foremost thing on that persons mind at the time

    Oh,. so you're a mind-reader now.

    The facts tell me that a person who has frequently called 911 in the past will know that the race/ethnicity question will come up: All they have to do is wait for it.

    The facts tell me that walking and "looking about" are not illegal activities. For Zimmerman to conclude that he was "up to no good" indicates that Zimmerman has a serious problem.

    Common sense tells me after so many discussions with you that you'll counter that Zimmerman was so devious that he hid his racism in the original call to cover his tracks or is latent denial of it.

    The facts of Zimmerman's frequent calls to 911 means that he knew full well he would be asked the race question. The fact indicate he has had anger and violence issues. Since he knew he would be asked the question, he only needed to appear not to be too obvious about it when the question came. You want to discount any and all possibility that he could not be devious, and there's just no common sense in that.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - What was it about the person that caused Zimmerman to stop his shopping trip and assume the role of super-mall-cop in the first place? I believe he saw the clothing and assumed from that moment the guy was black. He just could not confirm it yet. But the odds were high.

    Most of Zimmerman and Martin's father's neighbors are black and latino. Zimmerman, along with his fellow neighbors patrol their neighborhood to help prevent crime. Your belief, and those of the lynch mob, is that Zimmerman, who has been trying to protect Black, Latino, and White neighbors from criminals, is a racist. Common sense says you are wrong.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Pretty nasty, actually causes one to actually look at for several seconds.

    The color of coagulated blood is very dark and, if the wound is serious enough to require stitches -- easily noticeable.

    And why no sign of swelling when one claims their nose has been broken?

    Is that what Zimmerman's normally looks like? What video are you comparing the police station video to?

    Zimmerman was treated by paramedics at the scene of the shooting.

    It looks like the lynch mobs are getting increasingly desperate to avoid a trial and go directly for the rope.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - It won't be the first time an officer misjudged a situation. The people who supposedly administered medical aid to Zimmerman at the scene need to be heard from.

    The lynch mob doesn't want to hear from the SFD personal. The lynch mob has already decided that Zimmerman is guilty and must be murdered and then convicted.

  • -1

    yabits

    Most of Zimmerman and Martin's father's neighbors are black and latino. Zimmerman, along with his fellow neighbors patrol their neighborhood to help prevent crime.

    And one of your fellow right-wingers, in this very thread, as said that racial profiling is an absolute necessity and positive good in helping to prevent crime.

    Your belief, and those of the lynch mob, is that Zimmerman, who has been trying to protect Black, Latino, and White neighbors from criminals, is a racist.

    No. My contention, and I am confident the evidence will bear this out in due time, is that Zimmerman is a race-profiling murderer -- someone whose own anger got the best of him that night and caused him to kill an innocent person he had already immobilized and who was on the ground crying out for help. Zimmerman, with his record, knew he was in trouble for roughing the kid up and couldn't bear to hear his cries for help. So he silenced him.

  • -2

    yabits

    Zimmerman was treated by paramedics at the scene of the shooting.

    Really. What have they had to say about his injuries?

    Did Zimmerman remove his bandages before or after he was hand-cuffed?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    Himajin - "Former NAACP leader Bryant said the rallies organized by Sharpton and Jackson suggest there is an epidemic of "white men killing black young men" while ignoring much more prevalent black-on-black crime.

    "The epidemic is truly black-on-black crime," he said. "The greatest danger to the lives of young black men are young black men."

    Bryant said he wants to see protests about those problems.

    "Why not be angry about the wholesale murder that goes on in the streets of Newark and Chicago?" he asked. "Why isn't somebody angry about that 6-year-old girl who was killed on her steps last weekend in a cross fire when two gang members in Chicago start shooting at each other? Why is there no outrage about that?"

    Bryant, an outspoken conservative, predicted that "people like Sharpton and those on the left" will make Martin's death an issue in the presidential race.

    He told the Web site that they will "turn this evolving tragedy of this young man into fodder to say . . . 'If you don't re-elect [President] Obama, then you will have unbridled events or circumstances like this happening in the streets to young men wearing hoodies.'"

    The voters in the U.S. have been demanding that they be allowed to protect themselves against criminals. The voters in 49 States now have some form of conceal carry law because the voters demanded that their elected representatives pass such laws. Only the State of Chicago, I mean, Illinois still do not have such a law. Of course, Chicago just had a gang bangers bloodbath because Obama's ex-Chief of Staff, Rahm Immanual continually refused to abide by the recent Supreme Court ruling in favor of the 2nd Amendment as a right of individuals to protect themselves.

    A people who are willing to protect themselves know that a President and his political party who deliberately attempts to divide the country and allows lynch mobs to rule the streets should not be re-elected. And the voters will defend themselves from any lynch mob violence until a new President is elected.

  • -3

    TigermothII

    Martin had previously been arrested for dealing drugs and violent acts, he attacked Zimmerman and broke his nose knocking him to the ground, which a black witness and others observed. Was Zimmerman stupid in his actions, yes, did he shoot in self defense, yes also. Should Zimmerman's license to carry be revoked, probably, but he did not commit a criminal act. Martin was not the innocent that he is being portrayed as. If he had not attacked Zimmerman he would still be alive.

    Huh? Are you serious? What does Martin's past history have to do with this at all, since all he was doing was walking through a neighborhood going home? You folks seem to forget that was his only 'crime'. He wasn't selling drugs, stealing, hustling. He bought some candy and a drink from the local store and was walking home. Period. Why did Zimmerman think he was doing something? He never has said that Trayvon was trying to break into a home or that he was even loud and disorderly. He was black - whether that played into Zimmerman's assessment that he needed to 'take action' is subject for debate. I'm betting it did. Maybe it's a bad neighborhood, and I'll even give you that most of the crime in that neighborhood might be committed by black males. But then is what your saying that the old white (non-white, partially white, Hispanic, whatever) guilt by association because of skin color then okay? Why did Zimmerman think Martin was doing anything other than traveling from point A to point B? You can't admit the truth that it was likely because he was black, can you?

    ZIMMERMAN:This guy looks like he's up to no good, ........or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.

    How exactly does one 'look like they are on drugs or something' ? What was his interpretation here? Because he was out in the rain? No one here has ever walked out in the rain, particularly when you were young? He's walking around, looking about. Oooh, he must be ready to rob and steal then. It certainly couldn't have been that he was in an unfamiliar neighborhood and was getting his bearings while cutting through a neighborhood.

    In what bizzaro world do you then think that it's okay for some young civilian guy with no training and no title or position other than his self-appointed one to follow and confront - while armed with a handgun - a fellow citizen based upon nothing other than his perception of 'this (insert your favorite racial slur) boy is up to something. And don't kid yourself - just because Zimmerman is now touted as a great lover and mentor to all races, wheeling out a 'black friend of the family' to prove it, I'll bet he's as racist as any (including black people). His choice to pursue Martin rather than just call in his delusions set the stage. Puffing up Martin to be a 'thug' just to prove he might have been an aggressor in the outcome is not really necessary - and certainly is racist.

    I hate Sharpeton, Spike Lee, Jesse and the rest of the baiters as much as any of you. But what do their actions after the fact have to do with the situation that a young black kid was killed for no reason and no one was prosecuted for it? I don't agree with putting up bounties and the lynch mob mentality, but you have to admit that something smells here.

    Jesus Yabits, I've disagreed with you so much in the past that I find it odd that you seem to be the only one talking sense here to me. I'm a 'southern boy' by birth and grew up surrounded by a great deal of racist thought and practice. I became educated and realized the utter folly (nee stupidity) of all that. I've always thought the race card is played all too often, and mostly when it's not the case. But this is not one of those cases. And the comments here just illustrate how ingrained this racism is, even in those who claim so loudly not to be. Talk of Constitutional rights for the shooter?? What about the Constitutional rights, and rights of human decency for that kid who was just walking home down the street? His were ignored after the initial 'investigation' (or lack thereof) and that seems to trouble you not. So the issues are deflected by dragging the President and liberal vs. conservative into it. I'm conservative and white, and even I can see that there is injustice. What the hell is wrong with the rest of you?

  • -3

    TigermothII

    The voters in the U.S. have been demanding that they be allowed to protect themselves against criminals. The voters in 49 States now have some form of conceal carry law because the voters demanded that their elected representatives pass such laws.

    Once again you've at least alluded to the fact that Trayvon Martin was a criminal. What other conclusion can we draw from this since I'm assuming your defending Zimmerman for having a handgun? Who is going to protect the ordinary citizens from those who are too stupid to tell who the criminals are?

  • -2

    TigermothII

    I shouldn't have said 'fact that Trayvon Martin was a criminal' which is completely the opposite of what i meant. You get what I mean I'm sure.

  • -2

    yabits

    Jesus Yabits, I've disagreed with you so much in the past that I find it odd that you seem to be the only one talking sense here to me.

    And I know we'll disagree on stuff in the future. But it won't be without the genuine respect that I've learned to regard you with going forward.

    At least one poster compared this to the Duke lacrosse "affair," and I criticized them for it. After the latest evidence has come to light, this is reminding me more of the 1989 Charles Stuart case -- where a man shot and killed his pregnant wife after driving her to a "bad part" of town and blaming it on a "black man." (This caused a massive, hysterical manhunt in the city until excellent police work uncovered the truth and Stuart took his own life before he could be taken into custody.)

    The three cases have at least two things in common: 1) Authorities appeared to believe the allegations of the main person involved, and 2) all three were liars. (I call Zimmerman a liar because there's no way that is him lying on the grass by himself screaming for help -- as seen by the key eyewitness -- and because his wounds aren't anything resembling the seriousness of the beating he described.)

    No one seems to remember that, in the Duke case, it was an African-American woman -- a fellow dancer who was there the night of the incident -- who told the truth about the plot to frame the college students hatched by her co-worker.

    That said, I mention this because as the jaws start to close tighter around Zimmerman, he may elect to take the route that Stuart did. If so, I hope he has a shred of decency remaining and leaves a message where he admits and attempts to atone for his act of evil.

  • 0

  • 0

  • -2

    TigermothII

    I think the interview with the father is irrelevant. Think he would seriously admit to his son's guilt?

    And why keeping posting a link to the photograph? Okay, we get that he isn't the 12 year old in the first photos - but if you're trying to make him out to be a 'gangsta' because he doesn't look like Urkel, it's not going to work.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - No. My contention, and I am confident the evidence will bear this out in due time, is that Zimmerman is a race-profiling murderer -- someone whose own anger got the best of him that night and caused him to kill an innocent person he had already immobilized and who was on the ground crying out for help. Zimmerman, with his record, knew he was in trouble for roughing the kid up and couldn't bear to hear his cries for help. So he silenced him.

    According to eyewitness, Martin was sitting on Zimmerman when Zimmerman shot him. Zimmerman has a history of trying to help his neighbors regardless of their color. The lynch mobs don't care about that. The lynch mobs have their own agenda and it isn't protecting people like Martin or Zimmerman. The lynch mobs are just using Martin and Zimmerman.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - Once again you've at least alluded to the fact that Trayvon Martin was a criminal. What other conclusion can we draw from this since I'm assuming your defending Zimmerman for having a handgun? Who is going to protect the ordinary citizens from those who are too stupid to tell who the criminals are?

    The voters in the U.S. have been demanding that they be allowed to protect themselves against criminals. The voters in 49 States now have some form of conceal carry law because the voters demanded that their elected representatives pass such laws.

    Which part is incorrect?

  • -2

    yabits

    According to eyewitness, Martin was sitting on Zimmerman when Zimmerman shot him.

    You will be proven wrong about that too. And, just as shamelessly, you'll be back with more of the same.

  • -1

    MrDarryl

    So much crap is going on with this debate. I hope the people who think Zimmerman should fear for his life, when he initiates a confrontation with a deadly, wake up. We would have so many more deaths if this was the requirement for self-defense.

    -He didn't respond the way I wanted him to. -He got mad at me because he didn't know who I was or why I was following him. -He looked suspicious. -He was afraid of me and hit me. -He started hitting me because I was following him.

    All of these issues could have been avoided by one man alone...Zimmerman. But what happened? Why? If you can shoot someone for these reasons and say you were using self-defense...we are all screwed. I fear if Zimmerman does get arrested (again) and then convicted, he will not last long in prison. Someone will use his defense on him.

  • 0

    peanut666

    yabitsMar. 30, 2012 - 03:37AM JST You will be proven wrong about that too. And, just as shamelessly, you'll be back with more of the same.

    Stop bickering with me. I have not been proven wrong. You have yet to provide any sort of REAL verifiable information, just speculation and fabricated stories.

    All I have done is presented verifiable facts from supporting news media.

    Eyewittness testimony of the fight:

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

    Anyone can go to that link and read the information posted there and make up their own conclusions.

    Stop harassing honest folks who are trying to post some facts and truths, rather than spread more unsubstantiated rumors.

    • Moderator

      Readers, please keep the discussion civil.

  • -2

    yabits

    At 9:09 PM, Sailwind wrote the following:

    The footage, obtained by ABC News on Wednesday, shows a handcuffed Zimmerman getting out of the police car unaided and walking into the police station where he was taken after the shooting in Sanford, Fla.

    It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident.

    Four hours? No. Actually the footage was taken less than 40 minutes after the deadly incident. Zimmerman is arriving fresh from the scene.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    arrestpaulMar. 29, 2012 - 03:41PM JST yabits - Breaking news:Major media outlets are playing video of George Zimmerman arriving at the police station on the night of the shooting of Trayvon Martin. These same media outlets are ignoring the fact that the preliminary police report clearly states that Zimmerman was treated by the fire department paramedics before the police transported Zimmerman to the police station. A cut on the back of Zimmerman's head can be seen in the police station video if anyone actually looks for it.

    Doesn't matter. Zimmerman's claim is not viable, because under the law, the instigator of the confrontation cannot claim self defense. The body of evidence that is presently available clearly shows that Zimmerman instigated the altercation and carried out his crime with impunity.

  • 0

    peanut666

    yabitsMar. 30, 2012 - 07:05AM JST

    Four hours? No. Actually the footage was taken less than 40 minutes after the deadly incident. Zimmerman is >arriving fresh from the scene.

    Actually it is four hours. Here are the facts:

    **The EXACT words from U.S. News and World reports who first publicized the video nationally: **

    The footage, obtained by ABC News on Wednesday, shows a handcuffed Zimmerman getting out of the police car unaided and walking into the police station where he was taken after the shooting in Sanford, Fla. It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident

    Here is the link:

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

    Obviously, like all victims, they are cleaned up, if possible, before being taken to the police station for sanitary reasons.

  • -2

    yabits

    Doesn't matter. Zimmerman's claim is not viable, because under the law, the instigator of the confrontation cannot claim self defense

    Yes, more precisely, the instigator of a confrontation gives up a lot of legal ground when they act against another citizen. Especially if the person being confronted has not engaged in any illegal activity -- such as the commission of a felony. Zimmerman stalked and confronted a young man who was engaged in the act of walking home after a trip to the store.

    Zimmerman claimed he "was up to no good." Why some people should buy anything Zimmerman says after that point is beyond me.

  • -1

    yabits

    **The EXACT words from U.S. News and World reports who first publicized the video nationally: **

    Sorry, but your assertions are completely wrong. Do you really believe -- and this calls for some common sense here -- that the police kept Zimmerman at the scene for over three hours before taking him to the station? Do you actually believe that?

    Fortunately, another camera recorded the scene that has a timestamp. The actual time of arrival of Zimmerman at the police station is 7:52 PM. That's less than 40 minutes after the shooting. It also makes complete sense.

    Pointed out in another thread is the fact that the police are not wearing latex gloves in handling someone who is at any risk of bleeding on them. This means that the police at the scene knew there was no risk.

    Just as important, if Zimmerman had sustained injuries, the police would have been very diligent to have taken detailed pictures of the injuries. VERY detailed pictures. After all, it is the city of Sanford and state of Florida that has to verify to its citizens that this was truly a case of self-defense. Where are the pictures of Zimmerman's injuries?

  • 0

  • 0

    peanut666

    And just to demonstrate the type of people protesting for Trayvon Martin:

    http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Trayvon-Martin-Protesters-Ransacked-North-Miami-Beach-Walgreens-144407215.html

    And I'm not saying that ALL protestors are the same. I'm just saying that some are their just to cause trouble.

  • -2

    yabits

    All I have done is presented verifiable facts from supporting news media. Eyewittness testimony of the fight: Anyone can go to that link and read the information posted there and make up their own conclusions.

    The 911 tapes prove that the "witness" testimony on the link is completely unreliable.

  • -1

    yabits

    More news releases containing information casting Trayvon Martin as the aggressor:

    The video of George Zimmerman arriving at the police station approximately 35 minutes after the shooting reveals no marks whatsoever of Trayvon Martin as an aggressor.

    If Zimmerman's head had been pounded against the pavement, there would be clear marks. If his nose truly had been broken, there would be clear signs of blood and swelling. You have to hit a person very, very hard to break their nose. It's a very bloody injury. Where is the blood? He didn't have as much as 10-15 minutes to get treated at the scene. Where is any sign of bandage?

    I understand how emotionally invested some people are in seeing Trayvon's death as justified, but the obvious facts do not bear it out.

  • 0

    Himajin

    Dear JT Readers,

    Give it up. You know what will happen next. Even if something comes out, a photo or something of injuries to Zimmerman (if he has any) or a cell phone video comes out of Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, yabit's next gambit will be 'It's a conspiracy!!'

    You can't win over the fanatics who have their minds made up.

  • -1

    peanut666

    It is one thing when people are telling people what was on the tape. Listening to the actual 911 call fully collaborates with the eyewitness testimony.

    Here is the ACTUAL 911 call:

    http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/explicit-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

    People out there can make their own decisions.

  • -1

    peanut666

    It is one thing when people are telling people what was on the tape. Listening to the actual 911 call fully collaborates with the eyewitness testimony.

    Here is the ACTUAL 911 call:

    http://www.wftv.com/videos/news/explicit-zimmerman-call-to-sanford-police/vGZq9/

    People out there can make their own decisions.

  • -2

    yabits

    Give it up. You know what will happen next. Even if something comes out, a photo or something of injuries to Zimmerman (if he has any) or a cell phone video comes out of Trayvon on top of Zimmerman, yabit's next gambit will be 'It's a conspiracy!!'

    I can speak for yabits. Yabits is a truth-seeker. Nothing more; nothing less.

    There are no photos detailing Zimmerman's injuries because his injuries were in the category of minor to non-existent. The clear fact in the video is police not wearing gloves when handling Zimmerman. That would indicate that the police were completely confident that Zimmerman was not going to bleed on them.

    I believe that Zimmerman caught up to Martin that night, but Martin tried to walk away and tell Zimmerman not to hassle him. Zimmerman could not handle Martin disrespecting his phony authority and so he grabbed Martin by his hoodie -- big mistake. Martin used the momentum to come back at Zimmerman and tackle him to the ground. This is the point where some "eyewitnesses" saw Trayvon on top of Zimmerman.

    No way did Trayvon pound Zimmerman's head onto the pavement -- the video evidence and lack of police photos proves that.

    Zimmerman, far stronger and heavier than the unarmed Martin, quickly overpowered him. Zimmerman is far stronger than Martin. At no time could an unarmed 17-year-old kid carrying candy and tea be a threat to the older, stronger Zimmerman. This is the point where the key eyewitness saw Martin alone on the ground, crying for help. There was not a struggle going on -- just one person, a very young person, crying out for help. The mother of Trayvon recognizes the voice as her son's.

    It is only a few seconds before her son will be murdered by a single shot from Zimmerman's handgun. Repeat: Eyewitnesses testify there was no struggle going on before the single shot was fired that silenced the cries for help.

  • -1

    yabits

    It is one thing when people are telling people what was on the tape. Listening to the actual 911 call fully collaborates with the eyewitness testimony.

    There is no eyewitness testimony that corroborates with the first call to 911 made by George Zimmerman. It proves that the innocent Trayvon Martin felt threatened enough by the presence of Zimmerman to hurry away from him towards his home.

  • 0

    peanut666

    yabitsMar. 30, 2012 - 08:58AM JST

    There is no eyewitness testimony that corroborates with the first call to 911 made by George Zimmerman. It proves >that the innocent Trayvon Martin felt threatened enough by the presence of Zimmerman to hurry away from him >towards his home.

    What you are saying is speculation and just not true. There is an eye wittness and to protect him from a lynch mob his identity is kept anonymous. The police and the news media have interviewed him. Here is the link:

    http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

  • -2

    yabits

    What you are saying is speculation and just not true.

    There is no speculation about it. In the first 911 call, Zimmerman tells 911 that Martin is running (or walking as fast as he can) away from him. Zimmerman says this. It's right on the tape. Martin is trying his best to avoid a confrontation and Zimmerman is going out of his way to start one. Getting ready to chase down a perfectly innocent person heading home from the store with candy and tea.

    It's right there clearly on the 911 call.

    There is an eye wittness and to protect him from a lynch mob his identity is kept anonymous

    The 911 recordings prove that this "eyewitness" is not telling what actually happened. The more likely reason that he is anonymous is because he's personally connected to Zimmerman and just lying to protect him.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Oh,. so you're a mind-reader now.

    The facts tell me that a person who has frequently called 911 in the past will know that the race/ethnicity question will come up: All they have to do is wait for it.

    Good thing 9/11 asked the question if they hadn't his whole devious scheme of hiding his racism would have fallen apart right there. Though I'm sure you tell us about his "plan B'" would have been to tell the 911 "Hey, aren't you going ask me what race his is?

  • -2

    yabits

    Good thing 9/11 asked the question if they hadn't his whole devious scheme of hiding his racism would have fallen apart right there.

    Readers should know that you claimed that Zimmerman arrived at the Sanford police station four hours after the shooting. Of course, the fact is that approximately 35 minutes elapsed between the shooting and his arrival.

    Trying to uphold others to a level of integrity that this type of egregious error-without-acknowledgment clearly demeans reveals rank hypocrisy. The mind of such a person can't be trusted to reason clearly.

    Though I'm sure you tell us about his "plan B'"

    Yes, a serious lack of integrity lies behind that certainty. It is amazing the lengths some people will go to apologize for Zimmerman's clear racial profiling of an innocent citizen heading home from the store to be with a sibling.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Readers should know that you claimed that Zimmerman arrived at the Sanford police station four hours after the shooting. Of course, the fact is that approximately 35 minutes elapsed between the shooting and his arrival.

    Readers should know my 9;09 post also included the link to the MSNBC story that had stated to refresh your memory: My post:

    Umm, Yabits,

    The footage, obtained by ABC News on Wednesday, shows a handcuffed Zimmerman getting out of the police car unaided and walking into the police station where he was taken after the shooting in Sanford, Fla.

    It was taken about four hours after the deadly incident.

    http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/29/10915887-police-video-shows-george-zimmerman-shortly-after-trayvon-martin-shooting

    Trying to uphold others to a level of integrity that this type of egregious error-without-acknowledgment clearly demeans reveals rank hypocrisy. The mind of such a person can't be trusted to reason clearly

    If you mean the MSM where I got the information from I have to agree. I would counter the mind of a person who ignores the fact that I posted the actual link and story as to where the information came from.........I'll leave at that.

  • 3

    sailwind

    Readers should know that you claimed that Zimmerman arrived at the Sanford police station four hours after the shooting. Of course, the fact is that approximately 35 minutes elapsed between the shooting and his arrival.

    Also Yabits, I did not "Claim it" I QUOTED it from MSNBC. You twisted it and spun it and then you claim I lack integrity.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    ABC news has outed one of the witnesses, in this case a child of thirteen.

    "Bias? What liberal bias?" , the usual apologists will ask.

  • -3

    yabits

    If you mean the MSM where I got the information from...

    It doesn't matter what the source is. That isn't much of an excuse.

    The important thing is that it was presented to counter, "clarify", or challenge the statement that Zimmerman arrived at the station "soon" after the shooting bearing no signs of bleeding or visible injuries. Obviously no circumspection was involved in considering how odd it would be that so much time would elapse before Zimmerman was taken to the station. Especially when one considers how the same posters twist their panties in a bind over a mistaken plural of "initial reports" -- self-corrected to initial report regarding Zimmerman's alleged injuries. (Rank hypocrisy.)

    The four-hour time period was presented to bolster the possibility that Zimmerman's injuries were well-attended to and so therefore might be the reason they weren't so obvious. Now that the truth is out, the original claim of seeing Zimmerman a very short time after the shooting with no obvious injuries re-establishes serious doubt on Zimmerman's version of events.

    That kind of demonstrated lack of integrity wouldn't likely be able to put two and two together to reason if Zimmerman truly had his head pounded against the pavement multiple times, why the police or medical professionals wouldn't get him to a hospital for an examination to check for serious head trauma like a concussion. Nobody, least of all Zimmerman, seemed to be concerned in the slightest. That's because a serious slamming of Zimmerman's head on concrete never happened. It's a lie.

    Now we hear Zimmerman's brother claiming that George was so afraid that if his head hit the pavement one more time, he would have become permanently disabled. And yet Zimmerman gets out of the car 35 minutes after the "beating" completely unassisted and walks around perfectly fine. Not the slightest stagger in his step or wobble in his legs.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Obviously no circumspection was involved in considering how odd it would be that so much time would elapse before Zimmerman was taken to the station.

    No circumspection on my part as I didn't also consider the time lag and as to why 4 hours might have elasped before the video after I actually found an article that actually had the time frame at that time of the post?

    I also thought that was pretty long also so I guess didn't do the following?

    I didn't consider that the police arrived about one or two minutes after the actual shooting and had a man down and the shooter right there. That priorities weren't as to the most seriously injured person at the scene to attend to and that CPR was administered immediately. That Zimmerman wasn't immediately detained and had to wait before other Sanford EMT personnel were available to check his injuries as detailed in the initial Police reports. As in now the area is declared a crime scene with crime tape laid and out and Officers and Detectives now actively questioning witnesses which are redacted in the initial police reports. That having witnesses being able to walk over to where Zimmerman was being detained at the scene to identify him holds up a heck of lot better in court then with identification later at the Police station. That it's better to do all of this while events are totally fresh in peoples minds and the people involved are all there. That this wouldn't take up to four hours before he was delivered to the Police Station?

    Hell I wish they would have taken four hours to do that at the scene instead of the 35 or 40 minutes they did to deliver him to Station. They may have had a much better case then to have actually charged him that night with manslaughter.

    But as it stands now the 35 to 40 minute arrival time seems to be the most accurate reporting right now on the story.

    And for the record Yabits,

    The four-hour time period was presented to bolster the possibility that Zimmerman's injuries were well-attended to >and so therefore might be the reason they weren't so obvious

    The four-hour time period was the only article on the entire web at the time of my 9:09 post that I could find that actually had a timeframe of when he arrived at the Police station. How do I know that? Because my "Lack of circumspection" caused me to think how long it took before he arrived at the station and I googled "zimmerman arrival time" in a Google news search and that was the only article at that time that had any specific information at all on how long of a time frame was involved (Ironic, it happened to be from MSNBC and inaccurate once again). Every other article that I looked at prior to my 9:09 post I had found all stated words to effect "shortly afterwards" with no real time frame to reference to answer my "lack of circumspection". I posted the quoted the relevant part of the MSNBC story in its entirety with the 4 hour time they had in the article. I Did not add one word of my own to change it or "spin" it in anyway and I linked it to the story so others may verify it, its part of my "lack of integrity" to do that when discussing topics on J.T.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Correction........That Zimmerman wasn't immediately detained.... should have been......That Zimmerman was immediately detained..... apologies.

  • -1

    PeaceWarrior

    It feels to me as if you now have two classes of citizens in Florida because of this strange law. The ones without guns who get killed and accused, (the second-class citizens), and the ones with guns, who get to live and control the story when there's nobody to contradict them.

    That's not a good way to go Florida...

  • 2

    Lieberman2012

    Roseanne Barr is another well-known "liberal" who is all about tolerance and inclusiveness, which is why she decided to help Spike Lee and his vigilante gang by tweeting Zimmerman's true address. These people are no different than the religious fundies they think occupy a universe separate from theirs.

  • -2

    yabits

    But as it stands now the 35 to 40 minute arrival time seems to be the most accurate reporting right now on the story.

    For making the error of pluralizing "initial reports" in a post, which I had corrected in a follow-up, I was accused of deliberately trying to mislead others. The fact is that the first report filed from the event made no mention of Zimmerman's injuries.

    Piecing together what the police reported, Zimmerman was given "first aid" in the back of a police car by SFD. I do not know whether he was hand-cuffed. But there is definitely no bandage on his head when he arrives at the police station well within 45 minutes of the fight in which he feared for his life. And, for which he claims he received a gash on the head deep enough to require stitches. The SFD person who actually administered first aid to Zimmerman has yet to be heard from.

    But 45 minutes is not enough time for a gash serious enough to require stitches to heal. No serious person can believe that Zimmerman is telling the truth about this. What else is he lying about?

  • -2

    yabits

    It feels to me as if you now have two classes of citizens in Florida because of this strange law.

    What the conservatives who sponsored and approved the laws of this type in Florida have created is a situation where practically anyone can claim self-defense and therefore the last person standing is innocent as long as their opponent is dead and can't testify.

    But Florida law does make some exceptions to self-defense. A person who, for whatever reason, steps on someone else's lawn and are confronted with an irate homeowner who threatens (or even strikes) them can not blow that person away and claim self-defense. The homeowner, it can be argued, had the greater claim to defending his property.

    Some of the conservatives, early in this thread, tried to make the claim that Martin had no business being in the gated community, that his father and his father's fiancee did not live there. Of course, like so much else they have tried to jump on, that is false. Martin was making a straight beeline for his father's townhouse and was less than a few hundred feet away when Zimmerman confronted him. Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him during this time, reports that Martin told her a "strange man" was following him.

    Zimmerman left his vehicle and pursued Martin because he was convinced in his mind that Martin was somebody "up to no good." But in fact, that was completely wrong. Martin was just heading to the place where he was living -- his home. Martin was not seeking a confrontation. Zimmerman admits he was "trying to get away" and heading away from him at a fast pace. But it can be reasonably assessed at some point whether Martin -- who definitely felt threatened -- decided to hold his ground where he was and not lead this threatening stranger following him to where his younger sibling was.

    Everything, from this point forward, depended much on how Zimmerman conducted himself. The first words out of his mouth should have been, Excuse me, but I am the Neighborhood Watch captain .... -- said at an appropriate, respectful distance.

    Zimmerman's lying about the extent of his injuries are matched by his changing story which finally has Martin somehow spotting Zimmerman's gun in the heat of battle and trying to go for it.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Yabits,

    For making the error of pluralizing "initial reports" in a post, which I had corrected in a follow-up, I was accused of deliberately trying to mislead others. The fact is that the first report filed from the event made no mention of Zimmerman's injuries.

    It is misleading whether intentional or not, it is misleading. The initial report contains a section called narratives one from Officer Ayala and one from Officer Smith. They are both combined into one police report. It is misleading to state that the first report filed made no mention of the injuries. It is not misleading to state that the narrative provided by Officer Ayala in the initial police report made no mention of Zimmerman's injuries (as he was too busy applying chest compressions on Martin's chest trying to save his life at the time to pay attention to Zimmerman as written of his actions when he came upon the scene in his narrative). Simple fact without spin is the initial report outlines Zimmerman's injuries in Officers Smith's narrative, he notes the locations of the injuries and the injuries condition at the time (back of the head / Nose and still bleeding) and he also notes that he is not the one actively engaged in CPR trying to save Martin's life and he would be the only Officer that would be close enough to Zimmerman to observe him close up from almost exactly the time the incident had occurred.

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/Twin%20Lakes%20Shooting%20Initial%20Report.pdf

  • -1

    TigermothII

    Apologies for the lengthy posts;

    I find this all interesting, if rather troubling. Usually I'm on the other side - the one with the conservative white people who see this simply as another episode of black people calling foul and rioting because they don’t get their way. We even have a similar case happening now where I live in that a young black man was shot and killed by Police, and the local African American population is outraged. In this instance the kid had committed armed robbery the day before, and pulled a pistol out of his pocket when police tried to arrest him. There should be no wonder that he was shot, and there should be no outcry.

    But this situation is entirely different. A young black male was targeted as ‘suspicious’ when all it seems he was doing was walking home (and nothing has come out to counter this fact). He was followed and killed. Without any real investigation except what seems to be pretty basic, the shooter was let go on claims of self defense – most of that based on an odd Florida law that essentially seems to allow for Wild West vigilantly-style justice; justice in this case being shooting an unarmed teenager who was committing no crime. Did Martin aggressively approach Zimmerman when he noticed him following him? Maybe, although I don’t think I would buy that Martin would even have noticed Zimmerman (just another dude walking down the street - and he (Martin) was on the phone to his girlfriend. Zimmerman had to have approached and said something, maybe asking him what he was doing there. Then maybe (all supposition at this point) Martin did start kicking is arse, although I have to say that Zimmerman isn’t a little guy, and if he was laying on the ground whimpering like a baby, doesn’t that seem odd to anyone? I would also still contend that if Martin was beating Zimmerman (a very big IF) to the point that his life was in danger so he felt justified to shoot someone, wouldn’t he have had more severe injuries? Even if he does have a cut on the back of his head, and even if his nose is broken (although having had mine broken I can tell you it was swollen to about four times its normal size for most of the day and bled like a stuck pig) he does not seem to be very severely injured. So is it up to the individual in Florida to determine what is ‘life threatening’ and allows maximum force? Really?? So if I call some dude in Florida a a-hole and he punches me in the nose I can kill him? Odd.

    And then what is even more disturbing is the number of white conservatives (as I am) who come on here and other forums and media and talk about how ‘well, Trayvon was no angel – likely a thug’. Why do you think this? Could it be because he’s black? ‘Oh no, he got in trouble in school’. Okay, so white middle class kids never get in trouble in school for skipping, fighting or maybe a bit of weed. No, of course that never happens. ‘Well, what about Spike Lee and Oprah and the lynch mob’. What about them? No one is saying that these people are conducting themselves correctly or in a civilized manner. But rather it does seem to be the white conservative way of deflecting attention away from the matter at hand, and the scary idea that - yes, the white American community might very well still be racist. OMG. Are you really surprised? If so what institutional bubble do you live in? White people are racist. So are Black people, Hispanic people and Asian people.

    The degree of deniability and the need to portray Martin as the bad guy and Zimmerman as the good guy is very telling, even to an old white conservative such as myself. ‘Here’s a photo of him – see, why he’s probably a gang-banger’ or ‘he was thrown out of school for an empty bag of weed’. My god, he was even wearing a hoodie!! Yes, because my white son and all of his white friends don’t wear those all the time. Okay, maybe this is a good time to do a bit of soul searching. The lynch mob folks need to calm down. Any rioting is of course ridiculous, counter-productive and usually just an excuse for free stuff. But the white community needs to also realize that yes there is still a problem. The fact that Martin was seen as ‘suspicious’ just because he was walking with a hooded jacket on through a neighborhood with a history of crime problems does not equate to ‘that brother must be up to something’ – which it quite obviously does to many.

  • -2

    yabits

    Officer Ayala in the initial police report made no mention of Zimmerman's injuries (as he was too busy applying chest compressions on Martin's chest trying to save his life at the time to pay attention to Zimmerman as written

    Any police, fire, or emergency/paramedic professional coming on a scene has to look, identify, and conduct triage as to who is most in need of immediate medical treatment. Ayala would have at least had to have seen Zimmerman before attending to Martin. If Zimmerman's head had the kind of severe trauma he claims to have been subjected to, including a broken nose, it would have been extremely unlikely not to have noted it.

    Here is what may be more a genuine attempt to mislead: The use of Officer Smith's report as support for the seriousness of the injuries claimed by Zimmerman. This is why the relatively short time between the actual crime and the video of Zimmerman's arrival at the station is so important. With his head beaten against the pavement so badly Zimmerman (as his brother describes) was one smash away from becoming permanently disabled, Zimmerman gets out of the police car, his hands cuffed behind him, without any assistance. At no time does he appear to stagger or seem unsure of his footing.

    There is no sign of a gash deep enough to require stitches. I consider it an attempt to mislead by suggesting that an officer who appears to look at the back of Zimmerman's head is any indication that he sees signs of the serious injury claimed by Zimmerman. If Zimmerman had sustained such injuries, the Sanford Police Department would have taken detailed pictures of them. If his nose had been broken, there would be a medical report verifying it.

    It is not misleading to state that Officer Smith's report of seeing some blood on Zimmerman's nose and head provides evidence that a scuffle took place. But buying Zimmerman's story that he sustained serious injuries is not sustained by any evidence yet presented. And, if he is lying about the extent of his injuries, he is doing so to cover up the real facts of this case. (What we hear from the person who prepared Trayvon Martin's body for burial is that Trayvon's hands bore no marks of the kind of beating Zimmerman claims he received.)

  • -1

    TigermothII

    If Zimmerman was beaten so badly that he was 'one blow away from permanent disability' he would have still been in hospital at the time the video was shot. I think I read that Zimmerman refused to go to the hospital - is that true? If he was beaten to the extent that he claims, I would think we would have wanted and needed to go, and might have been taken their regardless (or persuaded to go) by EMT's/the Police if this were the case. Serious head trauma is not something you hop up from and are suddenly good to go.

  • -2

    yabits

    The degree of deniability and the need to portray Martin as the bad guy and Zimmerman as the good guy is very telling...

    I agree, and disturbing too.

    Despite all the attempts to portray otherwise, Martin never got into trouble with the law. From all that we know, his parents raised a fine young man and deserve to remember his final moments much better than -- yes, I'll say it -- the largely conservative backers of Zimmerman want to portray him.

    I personally feel that Martin became aware that he was leading an unknown and potentially dangerous character to the place where he and his younger sibling were going to watch the All-Star game while the parents were out. At some point, he had to make a decision as to how close to lead this person to his home. Martin was not armed, and neither was his sibling we can presume. (His parents don't seem the type to leave loaded weapons around for their kids to get a hold of.)

    I firmly believe that the final instincts that motivated Trayvon Martin were noble ones. (He had nothing against Zimmerman; he was trying to get away from him.) But I believe a strong argument can be made that Trayvon Martin died trying to defend himself and his younger sibling from the danger that ended up taking his life. His parents can take pride and hopefully some comfort knowing their son was a good person to the very end.

  • -2

    MrDarryl

    TigermothII...thank you. I agree with 100% of what you said. I am an American black male living in NY and I think you are correct about everything you said. I appreciate the comment and I hope it will calm this thread down. Cheers.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Any police, fire, or emergency/paramedic professional coming on a scene has to look, identify, and conduct triage as to who is most in need of immediate medical treatment. Ayala would have at least had to have seen Zimmerman before attending to Martin.

    He did according to his narrative in the initial police report.

    "upon arrival Ofc. Smith had a white male, later identified as george Zimmerman, in custody"

    If Zimmerman's head had the kind of severe trauma he claims to have been subjected to, including a broken nose, it would have been extremely unlikely not to have noted it.

    I highly doubt he had time to notice any details at all about Zimmerman other than he was already being detained as Ofc Smith's narrative in the initial report describes Ofc Ayala arrival.

    "Shortly after securing Zimmerman, Officer Ricardo Ayala arrived on scene. I advise that I had not made contact with the black subject laying on the ground. I observed Officer Ayala make contact with the subject and attempt to get a response but was met with negative results"

    Officer Ayala and another Officer that had just arrived then started CPR on Martin.

    All this would have occurred in a manner of seconds or less than over a minute at the most. And the report outlines the details the priorities the Police had as soon as they arrived. Detain the shooter first so that he can't take anymore victims and then after they have secured the area from futher danger render first aid to the victim to try and save a life.

    If Zimmerman's head had the kind of severe trauma he claims to have been subjected to, including a broken nose, it would have been extremely unlikely not to have noted it.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Apologies... for posting your quote twice Yabits at the bottom of my previous post (copy and paste error).

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    What liberal bias are you talking about ?

    MSNBC host Reverend Al Sharpton is calling for Americans to escalate the "civil disobedience."

    The NAACP, to their credit, has condemned such dangerous idiocy.

    I sincerely hope, for the sake of our country, that actions like Sharpton's are not what Obama and his Alinsky-ite followers mean when they talk about "organizing for America." But looking at the murder and mayhem of the Occupy protests, the faux indignation in the Fluke case (and the cover it provided for attacking organized religion) and then this, one of the major networks actively fomenting unrest, I begin to fear for what this summer will bring.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - You will be proven wrong about that too. And, just as shamelessly, you'll be back with more of the same.

    Another personal attack? If you have proof that Martin was not on top of Zimmerman when he was shot you should present that to the police or the grand jury.

  • 2

    Ben Jack

    Knowing about this 'Stand Your Ground' law, why would anyone want to take a chance on visiting Florida? I am totally serious in this question. Martin was not armed. We know this. Zimmerman was told to stop the pursuit. He did not. We know this. What is happening in the state of Florida when average citizens can decide to act like police officers against the orders of the actual police, kill someone who seems not to have been doing anything illegal whatsoever, and this act is considered legal under Florida laws?

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    Martin and Zimmerman had 2 confrontations. The first occured while Zimmerman was on the phone with the 9-1-1 operator. Martin began walking towards Zimmerman with his hands in his waistband. Martin then turned and moved away. The 2nd occured later while Zimmerman was returning to his vehicle. One of them started a fight. At least 2 eyewitness confirm that Zimmerman was lying on the ground when the shot was fired. Zimmerman's brother (Zimmerman has not made a public statement) says that Zimmerman and Martin were struggling for the pistol.

    It's also been reported that police say that the semi-automatic pistol still had a full clip and only the round in the chamber had been fired. That indicates that the pistol did not cycle properly. A 2nd round should have stripped from the top of the clip and inserted it into the chamber. The pistol either misfired or someone (Martin?) was also holding the pistol and caused a malfunction.

    The fact remains that Zimmerman was injured during the 2nd confrontation with Martin. People don't believe Zimmerman was injured enough but they weren't the one being attack. Martin did not go home after the 1st confrontation with Zimmerman. Zimmerman continued to patrol his own neighborhood after the 1st confrontation with Martin.

    When is Martin's girl friend going to talk directly to the police investigators? She's publically stated that she was on the phone with Martin at the start of the 2nd confrontation. That might prove useful to the investigation.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - If Zimmerman was beaten so badly that he was 'one blow away from permanent disability' he would have still been in hospital at the time the video was shot.

    What does Florida law says is the proper amount of beating that Zimmerman should submit to before he is allowed to defend his own life?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - Then maybe (all supposition at this point) Martin did start kicking is arse, although I have to say that Zimmerman isn't a little guy, and if he was laying on the ground whimpering like a baby, doesn't that seem odd to anyone?

    Zimmerman is currently 5 foot 8 inches and 170 lbs. Trayvon Martin was 6 foot even and 160 lbs, according to the police report.

    There seems to be a bit of confusion as to what "crying" means. Zimmerman was "crying" out for help. One of Zimmerman's neighbors says he heard Zimmerman "crying" out for help. The eyewitness said he told them that he was calling the police, then closed and locked his door and went up stairs. There is no indication that either party was "crying" their eyes out during the confrontation.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    ABC outs the 13 y.o. kid who was a witness, but respects the wishes of Martin's g.f. that she remain anonymous.

    Why won't the tape of the phone calll be released in its entirety? My guess, judging from Martin's twitter and facebook records, is that it is full of some rather shocking racist or 'homophobic' or gangsta garbage (or all three) that would invalidate the MSM's carefully orchestrated Narrative, not to mention how it would humiliate Obama, who just couldnt resist inserting himself in the matter.

  • -2

    yabits

    Trayvon Martin was 6 foot even and 160 lbs, according to the police report.

    The report is an estimate. Martin was not weighed at the scene.

    People don't believe Zimmerman was injured enough but they weren't the one being attack.

    According to the same report, Zimmerman was handcuffed by Officer Smith and placed in the back of the police vehicle where SFD looked at him to determine the extent of any wounds and render first aid as necessary. Zimmerman claims that he sustained a head wound serious enough to require stitches. A head wound serious enough to need stitches will bleed. First aid will stop the bleeding by, usually, applying a bandage. Yet, we don't see any sign of a bandage applied to stop any bleeding -- a bandage that Zimmerman could not have removed, having his hands handcuffed behind him.

    It is clearly evident that Zimmerman is not telling the truth about the extent of his injuries. Zimmerman was not "under attack" when he claimed that it was a wound serious enough to require stitches.

    If you have proof that Martin was not on top of Zimmerman when he was shot

    If Zimmerman was underneath Martin when the shot was fired, then ballistics and physical evidence would prove that. The public has seen that evidence yet. What I have heard from police experts is that a shot fired at such close range in that direction would have caused Martin's blood to get on the front of Zimmerman's shirt. and jacket. Eyewitness testimony is in conflict with the timing and who was on top of whom. The eyewitness "John" that keeps being brought up says he saw a part of the scuffle, but he admits he did not see the the moments before and during the shot was fired as he was going into this townhouse to call 911.

    The important thing is that the person most responsible for putting together all of the evidence -- the lead investigator in the case -- came to the conclusion that charges against Zimmerman had to be filed. No single individual was as close to this case has Detective Serino was at that point.

  • -2

    yabits

    A former co-worker of George Zimmerman's relates that Zimmerman was fired from a security-guard job for being too physically and otherwise inappropriately abusive with some of the people he dealt with. This co-worker described Zimmerman as a "Jekyll and Hyde" type who was cool most of the time, but would "snap" in certain situations and manifest a violently scary side.

    Attacking a police officer and his former girlfriend are two documented cases of Zimmerman's inclination to "snap."

  • 1

    Madverts

    So it's the media's fault that this guy stalked a kid and gunned him down after taking a thrashing for his efforts?

    Heh, it gets better every day....

  • 0

    Madverts

    After reading the usual comments from the gun-slingers on the right, I'm glad to live in a civilized country where a nut like Zimmerman would be in a cell right now awaiting trial for manslaughter, if not murder.

    It would at the least serve as a lesson to any other paranoid, gun-toting freaks "protecting" the community.

  • -1

    yabits

    Martin and Zimmerman had 2 confrontations. The first occured while Zimmerman was on the phone with the 9-1-1 operator. Martin began walking towards Zimmerman with his hands in his waistband. Martin then turned and moved away.

    The dictionary defines confrontation as: "A hostile or argumentative meeting or situation between opposing parties."

    The scene described above would more accurately be described as someone checking out a situation. Zimmerman saw and was observing Martin long before Martin was aware he was being followed and observed. Once Martin sensed he was being tailed, he likely came a safe distance away from Zimmerman to check him out. The fact that this was not a "confrontation" is indicated by Martin's very next action: He turned to head away from Zimmerman.

    Martin was, in fact, avoiding a confrontation with Zimmerman. Martin was taking steps to increase his distance from Zimmerman.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    Madverts - So it's the media's fault that this guy stalked a kid and gunned him down after taking a thrashing for his efforts?

    Heh, it gets better every day....

    The media has been conducting a public lynching and selectively editing videos and audio recordings to make Zimmerman out to be a racist and murderer. Expecially CNN. An earlier CNN poll said 73% of people questioned in the survey say that George Zimmerman should be arrested, with 11% disagreeing and 16% unsure.

    A more recent poll says Should 48% say he should be arrested, 16% say he should not be arrested, and 36% are unsure. The more police records, school records, and eyewitness statements become public, the less effect the lynch mobs are having on the public.

    The media and ignorant entertainers are not responsible for the Martin-Zimmerman incident, they are responsible for any lynchings and violence that will be caused by their lies and distortions of the facts.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - The important thing is that the person most responsible for putting together all of the evidence -- the lead investigator in the case -- came to the conclusion that charges against Zimmerman had to be filed. No single individual was as close to this case has Detective Serino was at that point.

    Hahahaha. The investigator makes many "recommendations". The State Attorney makes the "decision". How many of the investigators "recommendations" has the SA followed thru on? 90%? 80% 60%? Several eyewitnesses say Zimmerman was on the ground and crying for help when the shot was fired. Police say their statements back up Zimmerman's statement. Police say that they have no evidence to contradict those statements.

    Cutcher says she didn't see the confrontation or the shooting but she's sure Zimmerman is guilty. Cutcher is just another member of the lynch mob who's looking for attention for herself.

    Liquid bandages have been in general use for many years.

    Zimmerman was previously arrested for coming to the aid of his friend who was being accosted by an undercover police officer. An officer who had not identified himself. The police were there looking for underage drinkers and to see who was serving them. Zimmerman was not convicted of assulting an officer.

    Police had been called to the neighborhood 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012. Zimmerman had only called police 46 of those times. Slightly over 11% of the total number of calls. It seems that many of Zimmerman's neighbors are concerned about the crime rate in their neighborhood.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    Lieberman2012 - ABC outs the 13 y.o. kid who was a witness, but respects the wishes of Martin's g.f. that she remain anonymous.

    Why won't the tape of the phone calll be released in its entirety?

    I don't believe there is an actual recording of Martin's conversation with the g.f.. There is only the story that the g.f. was supposed to have given to the lynch mobs. There's been no report that the g.f. has talked to the police. Whatever "evidence" that the g.f. "claims" to have is not part of the police investigation. What is she waiting for?

  • -1

    Madverts

    "Zimmerman had only called police 46 of those times"

    Walking around armed and paranoid, he "only" called the law 46 times in just over a year?

    That's an average of 3.6 times a month. The guys a nut.

    I've only ever called the police twice in my whole life, and that's since I've had a business and had a couple of break-ins.

  • -1

    yabits

    Liquid bandages have been in general use for many years.

    Liquid bandages are used for minor cuts and scrapes. Not for injuries that require stitches. Plus, they are transparent and the minor injuries they coat can clearly be seen. Zimmerman claims the injury to the back of his head was so severe as to require stitches.

    Zimmerman also claims that his head was being pounded repeatedly against concrete pavement -- so hard that he feared for his life. If he truly suffered head trauma of the type he described in the days following the attack, why did he not seek medical attention? It appears that Zimmerman was not worried in the least about a concussion or other internal injury -- the kind of thing that only a brain scan can reveal. I suspect that's because he knows he had no reason to worry. It is Zimmerman who is lying, and it is only a matter of time now before the lies unravel the rest of his claims

  • -2

    yabits

    The investigator makes many "recommendations". The State Attorney makes the "decision".

    The State Attorney has been replaced in this matter. The lead investigator saw signs that something was very wrong with how this particular case was being handled at the higher level, and started to document everything for the internal investigation he knew would be coming.

    Nevertheless, the truth is that the police officer who was in charge of the investigation saw enough inconsistencies with Zimmerman's version of the events to recommend that charges of manslaughter be filed against him. He was the first police officer who could see all of the available evidence and make an honest determination. What were the things that convinced him -- strongly convinced him -- that Zimmerman's version of events was not what really happened?

    How long will it be before the right-wingers start a crusade against this detective?

  • -2

    yabits

    Police had been called to the neighborhood 402 times from Jan. 1, 2011 to Feb. 26, 2012. Zimmerman had only called police 46 of those times. It seems that many of Zimmerman's neighbors are concerned about the crime rate in their neighborhood

    This is how right-wingers come to a conclusion. Let's examine those numbers: 402 total calls in 13 months from a gated community with 260 homes. Was every one of those 402 calls actually crime-related? There are lots of reasons people call 911 that don't relate to a crime -- like neighbors who let a party get too noisy a little too late, or a family dispute that gets very loud.

    But what you just presented that out of a community with 260 families, George Zimmerman was responsible for over 10% of all the calls to 911. Sounds like a sick puppy to me.

  • -1

    yabits

    Zimmerman was previously arrested for coming to the aid of his friend who was being accosted by an undercover police officer. An officer who had not identified himself. The police were there looking for underage drinkers and to see who was serving them. Zimmerman was not convicted of assulting an officer.

    Let's not forget that Zimmerman's father is a judge -- someone with a lot of connections and influence right up to the top levels of the Florida justice system. It would be very helpful to hear the side of the story of the undercover police officer in the matter.

    Records will reveal that Zimmerman was fired from a security-guard position as a result of his aggression. At least one former co-worker describes him as a Jekyll-Hyde type who would snap and become violently enraged with seemingly little provocation.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    Madverts - "Zimmerman had only called police 46 of those times"

    Walking around armed and paranoid, he "only" called the law 46 times in just over a year?

    That's an average of 3.6 times a month. The guys a nut.

    I've only ever called the police twice in my whole life, and that's since I've had a business and had a couple of break-ins.

    Are you a member of a community watch group that has been working with the local police department? Calling the police is what community watch groups do which explains why there were 402 call to police from that neighborhood.

    That's over 30 calls per month.

    Zimmerman had only made 11% of the calls for a neighborhood that believed it needed a neighborhood watch organization. Spin it any way you want but Zimmerman has a history of helping his mixed race community keep their neighborhood safe.

    Martin still had the choice to go home after his 1st confrontation with Zimmerman.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Liquid bandages are used for minor cuts and scrapes. Not for injuries that require stitches.

    Hahahaha. Liquid adhesives are even used in surgeries now where stiches used to be the norm.

  • -2

    yabits

    Several eyewitnesses say Zimmerman was on the ground and crying for help when the shot was fired. Police say their statements back up Zimmerman's statement. Police say that they have no evidence to contradict those statements.

    Oh, yes they do. If there was no evidence to contradict the statements -- and several of the witnesses statements conflict with others -- the lead investigator would not have found anything to cause him to recommend that charges be filed against Zimmerman. Detective Serino has very compelling evidence that Zimmerman's version of events is not what actually happened.

    Cutcher says she didn't see the confrontation or the shooting but she's sure Zimmerman is guilty.

    None of the witnesses actually saw the shooting. Cutcher strongly believes the shooting was not in self-defense. That is different from saying that Zimmerman is guilty. She and the lead investigator believe that Zimmerman is lying. And we know that he's certainly lying about the extent of the injuries he suffered that night, so he's without a doubt lying about other details too.

    Cutcher is just another member of the lynch mob who's looking for attention for herself.

    Has Cutcher been calling for civil disobedience or visibly attending and speaking at protests or rallies? She's just a citizen who is partial witness to an extremely tragic event near her home and giving her version of the events. How is it that anyone who seeks out due process of justice and for all the evidence to be presented in a court of law is tagged as a member of a lynch mob? That's the kind of slander that just all too typical of the right-wing today.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - The State Attorney has been replaced in this matter. The lead investigator saw signs that something was very wrong with how this particular case was being handled at the higher level, and started to document everything for the internal investigation he knew would be coming.

    How long will it be before the right-wingers start a crusade against this detective?

    The investigator makes many "recommendations". The State Attorney makes the "decision".

    The SA stepped down because the investigation has taken a different direction. The actions of the investigators, police officers, and the SA are being checked and it's normal proceedure that the SA doesn't investigate himself. Not exactly "breaking news", is it.

    The lynch mobs have already started a crusade everyone in the police force, the SA office, and the eyewitnesses. The lynch mobs have also included innocent 70 yr olds and anyone who who questions their pretermined conviction that Zimmerman should be kidnapped, murdered, convicted, and arrested.

  • -2

    yabits

    Liquid adhesives are even used in surgeries now where stiches used to be the norm.

    There's a significant difference between what a scalpel does to soft tissue and what pavement does to the scalp. We will have to hear from the SFD worker who attended to Zimmerman that night.

    But you have no response or explanation to make on Zimmerman's not seeking medical treatment for possible severe head trauma. That alone indicates the "beating" he sustained was nothing more than a scuffle, and Zimmerman knew it.

    Zimmerman has a history of helping his mixed race community keep their neighborhood safe.

    Zimmerman also has a documented history of violent rage followed by attacks that could easily cross over to felony assault. When Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to pursue Martin -- who was heading straight for home -- it was Zimmerman who was seeking out a confrontation. Martin was heading in the opposite direction trying to get as much distance as he could from Zimmerman.

  • -1

    yabits

    The SA stepped down because the investigation has taken a different direction.

    The SA has to step aside because he made an extremely bad decision to overrule the lead investigator in the case. The Sanford Chief of Police had to step aside because -- as the mayor himself declared -- the city has no faith in him.

    The lynch mobs have already started a crusade everyone in the police force, the SA office, and the eyewitnesses. The lynch mobs have also included innocent 70 yr olds and anyone who who questions their pretermined conviction that Zimmerman should be kidnapped, murdered, convicted, and arrested.

    There are a few individuals who have behaved irresponsibly in putting a bounty on Zimmerman, as well as the texting of private addresses. Those few individuals, and anyone who endorses them, can be said to be behaving with a lynch mob mentality. However, to categorize everyone who simply want proper charges to be brought and for the evidence to be presented in a court of law as a "lynch mob" demonstrates exactly the same type of mentality as the radical idiots on the other side.

  • -1

    Noliving

    What the conservatives who sponsored and approved the laws of this type in Florida have created is a situation where practically anyone can claim self-defense and therefore the last person standing is innocent as long as their opponent is dead and can't testify.

    That is not true at all and you know it. Have you even read the law itself? If a person kills another and claims self defense they have to prove it was in self defense. These type of laws do not say you can be an aggressor they are saying that if you are attacked you do not have to retreat, you can stand your ground. The primary reason for this law was because people would be attacked on or in their property and they would fight the attacker, the problem is that before these laws were created you were legally forced to flee your property or you would be charged with assault or murder and if you did harm the attacker the attacker could in fact sue you for damages.

    I will say again there is nothing in this law that would make it legal for what Zimmerman did. His lawyers can claim that in a court but we all know that in court it wouldn't hold any weight.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    Noliving - I will say again there is nothing in this law that would make it legal for what Zimmerman did. His lawyers can claim that in a court but we all know that in court it wouldn't hold any weight.

    All you have to do is prove that what Zimmerman told the police is not true. Zimmerman has made no public statements. You also have to prove that the eyewitnesses, the ones who actually saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, are mistaken. It doesn't matter what CNN or Sharpton or Spike Lee have to say about it. If you are aware of the stand your ground law and self defense laws then you also know that Zimmerman doesn't have to testify in court or before a grand jury. The weight of evidence is on you.

  • -2

    yabits

    I will say again there is nothing in this law that would make it legal for what Zimmerman did.

    Are you saying here that you think what Zimmerman did was not legal? If so, then why was he set free with no charges?

    That is not true at all and you know it

    @Noliving:

    Before I tell you what I know, I have a simple yes-or-no question for you regarding the events leading up to the shooting of Trayvon Martin by George Zimmerman: On the first 911 call Zimmerman is recorded saying that Martin is headed in the direction of his car to "check him out" before Martin turns around and heads off in the opposite direction. Would you describe that as a *confrontation" between Martin and Zimmerman the way some posters have?

    I have read the law as well as about some of the after-affects of the law.

    If a person kills another and claims self defense they have to prove it was in self defense.

    How did Zimmerman conclusively "prove" self-defense on the night of February 26? He had just shot an unarmed kid turned out to be heading straight home after being told not to chase after the kid. He has a record of physical altercations with others. Zimmerman walking free is one example of how the Florida law effectively does exactly what I claimed it does. So how could Zimmerman possibly have "proven" self-defense when the lead investigator on the case determined that Zimmerman's story did not hold water?

    There are at least two other Florida cases where a person has used deadly force and claimed self-defense when the circumstances clearly were otherwise. In one case, a home was broken into and the robber was running away with some electronics equipment -- whereupon the homeowner came out and chased the thief down the street armed with a knife, caught up with the robber and stabbed him to death.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Zimmerman also has a documented history of violent rage followed by attacks that could easily cross over to felony assault.

    According to you or to the lynch mob? Maybe Zimmerman was on the grassy knoll? Did they ever solve that Lindbergh baby kidnapping?

    Plus, Martin also has a history of holding stolen jewlery, drugs, and vandalism. The lynch mob ignores Martin's history but uses twisted versions of Zimmerman's to publically lynch him. What's the lynch mobs motto? If you haven't heard a good story - start one?

    Who started the 2nd confrontation between Martin and Zimmerman? Do you actually know or just hope that you do? Why was Martin on top of Zimmerman? Did Martin and Zimmerman struggle for the gun? Do you have anything directly related to the actual confrontation, struggle, or shooting?

  • -2

    yabits

    Zimmerman has a documented history of violence against others. He was fired from at least one job for an aggressive assault against another person. By rights, his assault of an undercover cop should have been a felony, but it's clear that his judge daddy helped him get the charges reduced. His former co-worker describes him as a Jekyll-Hyde type who could "snap" and become violent with little provocation.

    Plus, Martin also has a history of holding stolen jewlery, drugs, and vandalism.

    The police investigated the jewelry and could find no evidence that it was stolen. So using the word "stolen" in that context is yet another in a long string of falsehoods. A bag that has grass residue is not proof that Martin had the grass. He could have easily gotten the empty bag from another person. But most importantly, none of Martin's history ever suggested he was violent. That is not true at all of Zimmerman -- who has an established history of violent behavior against others.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - The police investigated the jewelry and could find no evidence that it was stolen. So using the word "stolen" in that context is yet another in a long string of falsehoods. A bag that has grass residue is not proof that Martin had the grass. He could have easily gotten the empty bag from another person.

    What? There is "no evidence"? There is "no proof"? According to the lynch mob types, evidence and proof are not needed to demand someone's conviction. Threaten the public and demand that the law be twisted until Zimmerman is behind bars. Is that the way the justice system works? Or does the court system demand "proof" and "evidence"?

    I wonder why a high schooler would have a couple dozen pieces of jewlery in his backpack? And why wouldn't he know how it got there? Maybe it was a joke. A very expensive joke. Maybe the jewlery pieces were payment for something? Something valuable I suppose. Are illegal drugs expensive? Who knows?

  • -2

    yabits

    Maybe the jewlery pieces were payment for something? Something valuable I suppose. Are illegal drugs expensive? Who knows?

    So, to claim that Martin was holding stolen jewelry is a falsehood. The police investigated and found no evidence that the jewelry was stolen.

    On the other hand, the Sanford police conducted an investigation of the events surrounding the shooting by Zimmerman and found probable cause to request an arrest warrant for manslaughter. That is vastly different because the police obviously found substantial evidence to back up their position.

    I believe that the case is now in much better hands with the special prosecutor than it ever was with an SA who was willing to undercut the work of the local police.

  • -1

    Elbuda Mexicano

    America is a very dangerous country, be the wrong color and in the wrong place at the wrong time can be lethal to your health, in this case an African American kid gets shot to death by a half white and half Peruvian guy named Zimmerman, so many people are angry, understandable. Now if the victim were white?? Latino? Would we have thousands of people protesting? I am not sure, but if you do live in America you have to know where it is ok to go and where you have to better NOT go, this is the REALITY in the USA. This is how people get shot or killed back home, try to be a wise guy, a tough guy in the wrong barrio, wrong ghetto or wrong KKK supporting part of town and well you all get the picture, right??

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    Elbuda Mexicano - America is a very dangerous country,

    I suppose people in the U.S. could more to a safer country. Mexico maybe?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - On the other hand, the Sanford police conducted an investigation of the events surrounding the shooting by Zimmerman and found probable cause to request an arrest warrant for manslaughter. That is vastly different because the police obviously found substantial evidence to back up their position.

    The Sanford police department and the State Attorney's office disagree with you. Where is this "obvious" or "substantial" evidence? Your're not going to talk about what might have happened before Martin and Zimmerman met fist-to-face again?

    Maybe you could get Martin's g.f. to talk directly to the police. I heard that the SA has issued her a subpoena to her.

  • -1

    Lieberman2012

    This is how people get shot or killed back home, try to be a wise guy, a tough guy in the wrong barrio, wrong ghetto or wrong KKK supporting part of town and well you all get the picture, right??

    Oh, so Hispanics live in barrios, African Americans live in ghettoes and any "white" neighborhood is automatically a bastion of the KKK ? Your America is a pretty terrifying place.

  • -2

    yabits

    Extremely interesting news today in the case from the field of biometric voice analysis:

    Two leading experts in the field of audio voice (biometric) analysis have published opinions on the sounds of the screams recorded on one of the 911 calls with George Zimmerman's voice. Their conclusions: It is definitely not George Zimmerman's voice on the tape, but that of a much younger male screaming and begging for his life.

    "Tom Owen, forensic consultant for Owen Forensic Services LLC and chair emeritus for the American Board of Recorded Evidence, used voice identification software to rule out Zimmerman. Another expert contacted by the [Orlando] Sentinel, utilizing different techniques, came to the same conclusion.

    "Owen, a court-qualified expert witness and former chief engineer for the New York Public Library's Rodgers and Hammerstein Archives of Recorded Sound, is an authority on biometric voice analysis — a computerized process comparing attributes of voices to determine whether they match."

    In the case of the screams on the 911 call, they do not match Zimmerman's voice, a conclusion that is a "scientific certainty."

    "Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert...relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion. '"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

    Zimmerman's call to authorities minutes before the shooting provides a good standard for comparison, Primeau says, because it captures his voice both at rest and in an agitated state.

  • -1

    yabits

    Excellent graphic presentation of the layout of the houses and streets where the incident took place.

    http://www.showme.com/sh/?h=5ABSods

  • 2

    sailwind

    But you have no response or explanation to make on Zimmerman's not seeking medical treatment for possible severe head trauma. That alone indicates the "beating" he sustained was nothing more than a scuffle, and Zimmerman knew it.

    A neighbor saw Zimmerman less than 24 hours after the incident he had bandages on his head and nose at that time. Pretty much proof that he did seek or was provided more medical treatment after the video of his arrival.

    A man who lives in the Retreat at Twin Lakes Sanford Community where George Zimmerman lives and where 17-year old Trayvon Martin was killed, talked exclusively to FOX35 Friday about what he saw on Zimmerman's face less than 24-hours after the shooting.

    "I saw George, he was banged up," he said.

    The man, who didn't want his identity revealed, said he saw bandages on Zimmerman's nose and on the back of his head and well as lumps on his face.

    He told FOX35 he hasn't been able to sleep knowing that people in America are portraying Zimmerman as a racist and a murderer who suffered no injuries.

    "I believe you have the right to pull the trigger if you feel like your life is on the line and after seeing George's face the next day, I believe his life was on the line," he said.

    http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/local/033112-George-Zimmerman%27s-neighbor-describes-his-injuries

    myFOX35 is not the "Dreaded FOX news" by the way, its a local television station that carries FOX programming only. Like an NBC or CBS local T.V station affiliate.

  • -2

    Noliving

    Are you saying here that you think what Zimmerman did was not legal? If so, then why was he set free with no charges?

    Yes I am. Ask the corrupt government, the issue here isn't the law its the fact that judicial system refuses to enforce it.

    How did Zimmerman conclusively "prove" self-defense on the night of February 26? He had just shot an unarmed kid turned out to be heading straight home after being told not to chase after the kid. He has a record of physical altercations with others. Zimmerman walking free is one example of how the Florida law effectively does exactly what I claimed it does. So how could Zimmerman possibly have "proven" self-defense when the lead investigator on the case determined that Zimmerman's story did not hold water?

    Your proving my point that the issue isn't the law but corruption by the judicial system in its refusal to enforce the law. And seeing as the lead investigator was able to use physical evidence to deduce that Zimmerman's story most likely does not hold weight further points to corruption.

    There are at least two other Florida cases where a person has used deadly force and claimed self-defense when the circumstances clearly were otherwise. In one case, a home was broken into and the robber was running away with some electronics equipment -- whereupon the homeowner came out and chased the thief down the street armed with a knife, caught up with the robber and stabbed him to death.

    The law that we are talking about does not say what that person did was legal, as a result the law is not at fault, again the issue is the judicial systems corruption, even fact according to the officer:

    The Miami policeman who supervised the case was stunned.

    "How can it be Stand Your Ground?" the officer said to The Miami Herald. "It's on [surveillance] video! You can see him stabbing the victim."

    Also it is highly unlikely that the law was even the motivation for the person chasing the thief down and stabbing them to death.

    Again this is further evidence of judicial corruption, the issue is not the law it is the corrupt judges.

  • 1

    Noliving

    However though it is important to state that in the case where the person chased and stabbed the person to death, the thief did swing a bag full of electronic equipment at the pursuers head.

  • -2

    Noliving

    Or it's a case that you cannot even remember correctly where and when it happened. Either way, even if it's actually so, stand it up to the THOUSANDS of gun related deaths where it is NOT 'for the good'.

    I will smith. There are around 30k deaths by guns, more than half of which are suicides. There is an estimated 108k to 1.5 million self defense uses of guns in the US. Seeing as you wanted to stand up to gun related deaths that means that even on the low end there are more than 3 times as many self defense use of guns then there are gun deaths. According to the FBI just under 10k of those gun deaths were homicides. That means that for every gun homicide there more than 10 times as many people using a gun to defend themselves. Why are you in such a denial of how often a firearm is used in defense of someone. The only time you are going to hear of a gun owner defending themselves is when the attacker is killed. The vast majority of time a self defense use of a gun will either wound the attacker or will simply frighten the attacker away when the gun is displayed or is discharged.

  • 2

    sailwind

    The video of his arrival at the Police Station in high clear definition.

    I can see why the Officer was checking out the back of his head so intently. It sure appears to be a pretty nasty wound.

    Before shooting the messenger, it is from Brietbart's website.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/31/Higher-Definition-Zimmerman-Police-Video

  • -1

    yabits

    Now that two experts in voice/audio forensics have weighed in with their findings that the voice heard screaming on the 911 recordings is not Zimmerman's, it would appear that Ms. Cutcher's version of what she heard best matches what actually occurred in the moments just before the gunshot that ended the screams and Trayvon Martin's life.

    So it is not Zimmerman calling for help at that point, the way he told others. The screams for help coming from Martin are not those of someone pounding someone's head on concrete.

  • -1

    yabits

    Your proving my point that the issue isn't the law but corruption by the judicial system in its refusal to enforce the law. And seeing as the lead investigator was able to use physical evidence to deduce that Zimmerman's story most likely does not hold weight further points to corruption.

    While I can agree that there is corruption, it is the fact that those who are corrupt can take every advantage of a poorly written law. Ultimately, the way the law is written, it ultimately rests on the arbitrary condition of the feelings of the person who feels they are in grave danger -- even though reality might indicate they were far from it.

    Zimmerman was in no real danger from the unarmed Martin. That is why his story has been embellished the way his "wounds" have been. Actually, his story from the beginning has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

  • -2

    yabits

    A neighbor saw Zimmerman less than 24 hours after the incident he had bandages on his head and nose at that time. Pretty much proof that he did seek or was provided more medical treatment after the video of his arrival.

    What Zimmerman's buddy says can't be trusted unless the neighbor is willing to swear to it under oath. What is needed are the medical records of any treatment that Zimmerman received, starting with the aid rendered by SFD. Anyone who claims they "can't sleep" over the portrayal of Zimmerman as a killer has clearly too much emotional involvement to be unbiased. Besides, Zimmerman is a killer. Nobody disputes he killed an unarmed kid on his way home to watch a basketball game.

    "I believe you have the right to pull the trigger if you feel like your life is on the line and after seeing George's face the next day, I believe his life was on the line," he said.

    Simply crazy. We are seeing Zimmerman's face and head in pretty high resolution and it only "appears" that their might be something on the back of his head -- although in other parts of the video, under better light, it appears that nothing is there. There's definitely no sign of anything banged up on the front of his face. And he certainly doesn't move like a person who is 30 minutes after a head-pounding that had him fearing for his life.

    Additionally, there is the affadavit from the funeral director, stating that he could find no marks on Trayvon's hands suggesting he had been in a serious fight.

    This neighbor losing sleep over Zimmerman probably doesn't understand how his buddy lost a security job over times he would snap and fly into a rage and be overly aggressive over trivial misbehavior of others -- his former co-worker described him as having a Jekyll-Hyde aspect to his character.

    With so much of Zimmerman's story unraveling, it is only a matter of time now.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Why no convenience store video of the supposedly angelic young victim, having trooped a mile or more in the rain, to get his younger siblings some skittles ("skillets", as Al Sharpton keeps saying...) and some ice tea? Might help establish the true timeline, provide more info about the phone call to the g.f. (who gets MSM protection, while the 13 y.o. witness gets outed).

    Why the wait on the foresnic report? To me that seems the key.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - In the case of the screams on the 911 call, they do not match Zimmerman's voice, a conclusion that is a "scientific certainty."

    "Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert...relies instead on audio enhancement and human analysis based on forensic experience. After listening closely to the 911 tape on which the screams are heard, Primeau also has a strong opinion. '"I believe that's Trayvon Martin in the background, without a doubt," Primeau says, stressing that the tone of the voice is a giveaway. "That's a young man screaming."

    And there are "audio experts" who say it's inconclusive. Did Primeau compare this audio to another audio of Martin or Zimmerman actually crying out for help? I didn't think so.

    I understand that MSNBC is now investigating it's own lynch mob news department and lynch mob on-air personalities. MSNBC has been repeatedly shown a recording of Zimmerman telling the 9-1-1 dispatcher (who is still not a police officer) -

    Zimmerman: *This guy looks like he’s up to no good. *He looks black**.

    The MSNBC lynch mob says this proves Zimmerman is a racist.

    The actual recording tells a different story -

    Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.

    Dispatcher: OK, and this guy - is he black, white or Hispanic?

    Zimmerman: He looks black.

    Do you think MSNBC should appologize to Zimmerman just like Spike Lee was forced to do for the 70 yr old couple, who's lives he put in danger?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - What Zimmerman's buddy says can't be trusted unless the neighbor is willing to swear to it under oath.

    Hahahaha. How do you know what Martin was thinking and doing the night he was shot? Whatever you think you know, Is it because of what Martin's g.f. allegedly told the lynch mob media? Has Martin's g.f. made a statement under oath?

    You've also mentioned a person who claims to be a person who had previously worked with Zimmerman. That person is supposed to have said that Zimmerman "was a Jekyll-Hyde type". Did that person make a statement under oath?

    Are only the people who disagree with you required to make a statement under oath?

  • 2

    sailwind

    Now that two experts in voice/audio forensics have weighed in with their findings that the voice heard screaming on the 911 recordings is not Zimmerman's, it would appear that Ms. Cutcher's version of what she heard best matches what actually occurred in the moments just before the gunshot that ended the screams and Trayvon Martin's life.

    Since Zimmerman is still alive have he scream again for help record it and then do a compare it by the experts. Pretty simple to verify.

    What Zimmerman's buddy says can't be trusted unless the neighbor is willing to swear to it under oath.

    What makes you think he is Zimmerman's buddy? He is a neighbor only and for all we know he might even like the guy. And it is obvious he would swear it under oath or he wouldn't have told the reporter that Zimmerman had bandages on his face and the back of his his head in the first place.

    Is everyone lying hear Yabits that does not fit your fantasy version of this?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Excellent graphic presentation of the layout of the houses and streets where the incident took place.

    If that "video expert" is showing that Martin travelled around the townhouses, out of the sight of Zimmerman, to continue on his way home then why did Martin turn around and go back to confront Zimmerman? Why didn't Martin just go home?

  • 2

    sailwind

    Additionally, there is the affadavit from the funeral director, stating that he could find no marks on Trayvon's hands suggesting he had been in a serious fight.

    Pushing and slamming the back of a man's head into concrete last I heard usually does not result in punching with ones hands Yabits.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Now that two experts in voice/audio forensics have weighed in with their findings that the voice heard screaming on the 911 recordings is not Zimmerman's, it would appear that Ms. Cutcher's version of what she heard best matches what actually occurred in the moments just before the gunshot that ended the screams and Trayvon Martin's life.

    Two "so called" experts who have not made a statement under oath. You do still think that is important, don't you?

    Cutcher, however, has made a statement to police that she did not see the confrontation. Cutcher has also told police that she did not see the shooting. Cutcher did not actually see anyone crying out for help. Cutcher has said that the crys for help must have come from Martin because she "thinks" it came from Martin. Other eyewitnesses say that Zimmerman was crying out for help and that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when Martin was shot.

    Cutcher's statement is a matter record. Martin's g.f. hasn't made a statement to the police. She did talk to the lynch mob and to the lynch mob media. Maybe the g.f. will talk to the grand jury? Maybe she won't? She is entitled to 5th Amendment protection.

  • -1

    yabits

    And there are "audio experts" who say it's inconclusive.

    Who are they? What are their credentials -- what makes them experts? -- and where are their statements? Nice to see how Zimmerman's side has to be propped up by lies.

    Did Primeau compare this audio to another audio of Martin or Zimmerman actually crying out for help? I didn't think so.

    So, you are admitting that you don't understand the science behind voice biometrics. That's fine. Maybe your "experts" can help you.

    I understand that MSNBC is now investigating it's own lynch mob news department ...

    Completely irrelevant to the events of 2/26 and the killing of Trayvon Martin.

  • -2

    yabits

    You've also mentioned a person who claims to be a person who had previously worked with Zimmerman. That person is supposed to have said that Zimmerman "was a Jekyll-Hyde type". Did that person make a statement under oath?

    So far, there is nothing to dispute the claim made that Zimmerman lost his job as a security guard because of his aggressive behavior. "When he snapped, he snapped," the former co-worker said of Zimmerman.

    Definitely, subpoena him and put him under oath. Check the employment records and find out if he's lying. We kinow that Zimmerman has a documented record of physical violence against others.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Excellent graphic presentation of the layout of the houses and streets where the incident took place.

    WHOA! I just realized that Joy-Ann Reid had put an X on Zimmerman's house. She's no better than that other lynch mob spokesmodel, Spike Lee. Of course, she says that "may or not be where Zimmerman lived" but Zimmerman was in his car, not in his kitchen.

    Zimmerman asked 9-1-1 to check out a suspicious person at the neighborhood's clubhouse address. Zimmerman also told 9-1-1 that Martin had stopped and was looking at him. Zimmerman then said that Martin was now walking towards him with his hands in his waistband. (Martin had changed his direction.) Zimmerman then said that Martin left in another direction. Zimmerman never said that Martin had walked past him.

    Joy-Ann Reid just fingered Zimmerman's house for the lynch mobs.

  • -1

    yabits

    Since Zimmerman is still alive have he scream again for help record it and then do a compare it by the experts. Pretty simple to verify.

    That's not how voice biometrics works, but even if it's verified that it's Trayvon's voice screaming for help, you'll still defend his murder with some other concocted fairy tale.

    What makes you think he is Zimmerman's buddy?

    Someone is going to admit he "loses sleep" over someone involved in a killing that he wasn't a witness to and just sees bandages the next day on a head and face that clearly show no signs of serious injury 30 minutes after the event? Someone Zimmerman lets get close enough to him to see "bumps" on his face that aren't there on the video.

    Is everyone lying hear Yabits that does not fit your fantasy version of this?

    You don't have to be too intelligent to perceive what Detective Serino discovered about this case. And if the lead investigator is right and the pieces don't fit -- and they surely don't in Zimmerman's version -- then all you are doing is defending murder. I happen to believe that a very high standard has to be met for taking another person's life. In attacking those who believe that Trayvon Martin had the right to walk home from the store without being accosted and killed by George Zimmerman, it is clear you do not.

    If the pieces don't fit, the defenders of Zimmerman, and Zimmerman himself, will have to lie to make them fit. The fantasy version belongs to Zimmerman.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - So far, there is nothing to dispute the claim made that Zimmerman lost his job as a security guard because of his aggressive behavior. "When he snapped, he snapped," the former co-worker said of Zimmerman.

    So far, there is nothing to dispute the statement's that Martin was on top of Zimmerman when Martin was shot. Innuendo, rumor-mongering, and admittly false stories by the lynch mob types prove nothing.

    Your mention of Zimmerman's history has been met with stories of Martin's history. Neither prove what happend just before the shooting.

    When Zimmerman lost sight of Martin, Martin had at least a minute or two headstart on him IF Martin was actually going home. Why did Martin go back to confront Zimmerman? Why didn't Martin just go home?

    Why hasn't it been reported that Martin's g.f. has finally made a statement to the police. I think that would be very relevant to the events of 2/26.

  • -1

    yabits

    Pushing and slamming the back of a man's head into concrete last I heard usually does not result in punching with ones hands Yabits.

    Zimmerman claims Martin hit him hard enough to cause him to suffer a broken nose.

    Where's the medical report backing up Zimmerman's claim?

    Zimmerman (through his attorney and family) and one "witness" describe Martin on top of him pounding or pummelling away at him.

    A blow hard enough to knock an adult man to the ground and break his nose and the act of pounding or pummelling him with his fists is going to leave telltale marks on the hands. But the video shows no signs whatsoever of a man whose claims are that he almost lost consciousness, and there aren't signs of marks on the hands of the alleged attacker -- according to a sworn affadavit from the funeral director.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - You don't have to be too intelligent to perceive what Detective Serino discovered about this case.

    Hmmm, interesting statement. You perceive what the detective discovered about this case. One police officer suggested fileing charges. Are you suggesting that must make this officer correct AND the only honest police officer in the department. After all, you think he agrees with you. The SA didn't file charges. The SA says they have no evidence to prove that this shooting is anything other than self defense. If you have evidence to the contrary, something that will actually stand up to cross examination in court, something other than a former co-worker of Zimmerman's or an eyewitness who didn't actually see anything, you should get it to the police as quickly as you can.

  • -1

    yabits

    If that "video expert" is showing that Martin travelled around the townhouses, out of the sight of Zimmerman, to continue on his way home then why did Martin turn around and go back to confront Zimmerman? Why didn't Martin just go home?

    You do not actually know Martin "went back" to confront Zimmerman? From the sworn statement of the girlfriend, it was Zimmerman who caught up to Martin to confront him.

    Zimmerman claimed that Martin was "running." The sworn affadavit from Martin's girlfriend said she told Martin to run and Martin said, "No," he was just going to walk faster, but not run. The site of the altercation is, through videos and photos, a wide open area with no large trees or bushes to hide behind. It was Zimmerman, "out of breath" according to his father and brother, who chased after Martin.

    According to Zimmeman's story, he suddenly decided to give up the chase and head back to his vehicle. Based on where the scuffle happened -- no more than 3 houses in along the path -- that does not seem likely. Zimmerman's girlfriend hears Martin exchange words with his pursuer. There is no way that Zimmerman is being taken by surprise here, the way he tries to let on. After all, he was chasing a "suspicious" character who he determined was "up to no good." (And who he called a racial epithet, clearly preceded by the f-word -- revealing his state of mind as very agitated.)

    After the exchange of words, Martin's voice suddenly stops short and the girlfriend hears the sounds of a scuffle or fight taking place before the phone goes dead.

  • -1

    Noliving

    While I can agree that there is corruption, it is the fact that those who are corrupt can take every advantage of a poorly written law. Ultimately, the way the law is written, it ultimately rests on the arbitrary condition of the feelings of the person who feels they are in grave danger -- even though reality might indicate they were far from it.

    Zimmerman was in no real danger from the unarmed Martin. That is why his story has been embellished the way his "wounds" have been. Actually, his story from the beginning has more holes in it than Swiss cheese.

    It's not poorly written at all, according to the law if a person is to claim self defense they have to prove it they can't just claim it was self defense. It does not rest on the condition of the feelings of the person. It relies on scientific evidence to prove that someone did in fact feel they were in grave danger. How else do you explain that law enforcement were able to determine that Zimmerman story was full of holes when there was basically no witnesses to the crime. How else do you explain that law enforcement know that the guy who stabbed the thief to death was not self defense. If it was as your claim that rests solely on their feeling they are in grave danger then why would law enforcement go to all this trouble of actually to find out if it was in fact self defense? So who is letting him go? The law or the corrupt judicial system that is purposely misinterpreting the law and getting away with it. If they are purposely misinterpreting that law then guess who many other laws they are also purposely misinterpreting.

  • -2

    yabits

    One police officer suggested fileing charges.

    The lead investigator in the case. The one with access to all the pieces of the puzzle to that point, and deciding if they fit or not. He's not just "one police officer."

    Are you suggesting that must make this officer correct AND the only honest police officer in the department.

    There is nothing to suggest that Detective Serino is dishonest. There is also nothing to suggest that he is the only honest police officer in the department. But he is the one officer on this case who first saw the various pieces of evidence and talked to all the witnesses, walked the area to try to re-enact what happened -- and decided that Zimmerman's story was full of holes.

    When 13-year-old Austin Brown was walking his dog -- just prior to the single gunshot -- he saw only one person on the ground and heard wailing for help. There was not a scuffle going on at that point. There was not one person on top of another. Audio forensics experts claim the cries heard before the gunshot are not from Zimmerman, so they can only be coming from Martin. Those moments make it seem pretty clear that Zimmerman was not in danger for his life. (And they don't fit with Zimmerman's side of the story.)

    It is more likely that Martin tackled him to the ground (after being grabbed by Zimmerman) and perhaps got one smack in -- which really ignited Zimmerman's well-documented rage and propensity for physical violence when enraged. At some point, the much-stronger Zimmerman overpowered Martin and left him laying on the ground crying for help. Martin's last view was of Zimmerman pulling his gun out and contemplating his next action -- which only intensified Martin's screams. A single shot ended those screams.

    That scenario is implausible only if one completely buys 100% of Zimmerman's story and rejects all of the inconsistencies that Detective Serino discovered. To the extent that the scenario is even remotely plausible, the interest of public safety would demand that Zimmerman be taken into custody and not have access to firearms.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Now that two experts in voice/audio forensics have weighed in with their findings that the voice heard screaming on the 911 recordings is not Zimmerman's,

    Did you read the original article in the Orlando Sentinel? The 2nd expert says that the 1st expert's methods shouldn't even be allowed in a courtroom. The 2nd expert would discredit the 1st expert's testimony. Brilliant.

    And neither of them have compared the Sentinel's re-recording of the 9-1-1 recording of the cell phones transmission of the struggle that was taking place outside but was recorded inside a building with enclosed walls and closed doors and windows (due to the fact is was raining) - to Martin's voice.

  • -1

    yabits

    Did you read the original article in the Orlando Sentinel? The 2nd expert says that the 1st expert's methods shouldn't even be allowed in a courtroom. The 2nd expert would discredit the 1st expert's testimony.

    Here is the link to the Orlando Sentinel article. Nowhere does the "2nd expert" discredit the first expert's methods. Nowhere does the first expert discredit the second expert's methods. It would be hard to discredit since both experts came to the same conclusion. Both experts have provided crucial testimony that has helped decide court cases.

    http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-03-31/news/os-trayvon-martin-george-zimmerman-911-201203311voice-identification-expert-reasonable-scientific-certainty

    I don't understand why the supporters of the murder of Trayvon Martin have to resort to such easily disprovable falsehoods.

    And neither of them have compared the Sentinel's re-recording of the 9-1-1 recording of the cell phones transmission of the struggle that was taking place outside but was recorded inside a building with enclosed walls and closed doors and windows (due to the fact is was raining) - to Martin's voice.

    You are ignorant of voice biometrics, and that is understandable. The screams are not coming from Zimmerman. That much can be determined from his voice pattern on the 911 calls. It's a pattern that is comparatively unique to DNA and fingerprinting. As the article states:

    Another benefit of modern biometric analysis, Owen said, is it doesn't require an "in context" comparison. In other words, Owen didn't need a sample of Zimmerman screaming in order to compare his voice to the call. The technology Owen used to analyze the Zimmerman tape has a wide range of applications, including national security and international policing, he said. A recently as January, Owen used the same technology to identify accused murderer Sheila Davalloo in a 911 call made almost a decade ago.

    It is pathetic but reassuring to see how far the defenders of the murder of Trayvon Martin have to go to distort the truth.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - From the sworn statement of the girlfriend, it was Zimmerman who caught up to Martin to confront him.

    Zimmerman claimed that Martin was "running." The sworn affadavit from Martin's girlfriend said she told Martin to run and Martin said, "No," he was just going to walk faster, but not run.

    Yessss. However, Martin's GF has still not talked to the police department or a grand jury. Her lawyer took down whatever she said and a notary public verified that she actually said it. That "sworn affadavit" was then distributed to the lynch mobs and lynch mob media.

    If only she had made a statement to the police then that "sworn affadavit" might be worth the paper it's written on.

  • -1

    yabits

    However, Martin's GF has still not talked to the police department or a grand jury. Her lawyer took down whatever she said and a notary public verified that she actually said it.

    There is no reason to doubt what the girlfriend heard.

    What we know is that Zimmerman is not telling the truth about the events. His head was not bashed against the concrete so hard he almost lost consciousness. He was not walking back to his vehicle when he caught up to Trayvon. Detective Serino knows that Zimmerman is lying about key details.

    It's just like the falsehood that one voice expert is "discrediting" the other one's methods. There are often two different technical ways to achieve a similar result, and the fact that both methods lead the experts to the same conclusion would only interpreted as cancelling out in the mind of the seriously deluded.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Here is the link to the Orlando Sentinel article. Nowhere does the "2nd expert" discredit the first expert's methods. Nowhere does the first expert discredit the second expert's methods. It would be hard to discredit since both experts came to the same conclusion. Both experts have provided crucial testimony that has helped decide court cases.

    According to the article -

    Not all experts rely on biometrics. Ed Primeau, a Michigan-based audio engineer and forensics expert, is not a believer in the technology's use in courtroom settings.

    That certainly sounds like he's discrediting biometrics.

    Of course, they didn't ask what the 1st expert thinks of the 2nd expert methods. I'm sure he's a big fan.

    Neither expert compared Martin's voice to the Sentinel's recording of the 9-1-1 recording. I wonder if that would have been even less compatible?

  • -1

    yabits

    That certainly sounds like he's discrediting biometrics.

    There is a vast difference between not totally accepting or believing and outright discrediting.

    The fact is that two independent experts, using two completely independent methods, both came to the same conclusion...

    Neither expert compared Martin's voice to the Sentinel's recording of the 9-1-1 recording.

    They compared Zimmerman's voice, and they found that it did NOT match. I am confident that at some point a recording of Trayvon's voice will be made available to them. But confirming that the screams are Trayvon's won't do anything to change the minds of those who believe that Zimmerman was completely in the right to kill Trayvon Martin -- no matter how many holes in Zimmerman's story.

  • -1

    yabits

    There are a great many flaws in Zimmerman's story. The lack of a medical report confirming a broken nose is one of them.

    But, in my personal opinion, the greatest and most obvious flaw is Zimmerman's failure to get a CT scan of possible brain damage that can be caused by severe blows to the head.

    If Trayvon Martin was truly bashing Zimmerman's head onto concrete, then Zimmerman would have every incentive in the world -- for personal and legal reasons -- to get the kind of tests run that can indicate even mild to moderate trauma. I say personal reasons because head injuries are nothing to trifle with -- they can be extremely dangerous.

    However, if Zimmerman knows he is not telling the truth about his head being bashed, then he has every incentive not to get a CT scan -- because the results could only undermine his claims.

    Some actually want to substitute a neighbor seeing bandages on Zimmerman's head as some kind of authoritative proof that he suffered the severe beating he claimed. But it is a medical examination that can only settle the doubts raised by the lack of visible evidence of injuries on the video of his arrival at the police station.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - There is no reason to doubt what the girlfriend heard.

    What we know is that Zimmerman is not telling the truth about the events.

    Hahahaha. There is no "we". You made up your mind when the lynch mobs first started spewing their twisted versions of what might have happened that night. Unfortunately for the lynch mob, they haven't been able provide any proof that Zimmerman wasn't fighting for his life.

    Zimmerman was injured in the struggle with Martin. You don't think he was injured enough. What you think happened doesn't change what actually happened.

    Why hasn't Martin's GF spoken to the police department? I would think that she would want to do the right thing and help the investigation. Martin's GF must have a different priority.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - I don't understand why the supporters of the murder of Trayvon Martin.....

    There are no "supporters of the murder of Martin". That's your biggest mistake. Is there "reasonable doubt"? Is it possible that Martin was attacking Zimmerman? Could Zimmerman have thought that his life was in danger?

    The lynch mob doesn't care. Zimmerman must be guilty. The lynch mob doesn't need any proof or evidence. The lynch mob demands that Zimmerman be put in prison so they set out to prove the unproveable. The lynch mob believes that if they threaten the public with violence that the puclic will ignore the law and just do whatever the lynch mob demands.

    I doubt that a society that demands that they themselves be armed against the criminal element will ever bow down to a lynch mob.

  • -3

    Elbuda Mexicano

    This is a sad, sad situation but this will not be the last time this happens, my guess it will only increase and the NRA will go laughing all the way to the bank$$$$$$!!!!

  • 1

    sailwind

    Some actually want to substitute a neighbor seeing bandages on Zimmerman's head as some kind of authoritative proof that he suffered the severe beating he claimed.

    You've spun and misled yet again. I never claimed it as proof of the severity of injuries. I only cited it as proof that had received further medical attention after the video of his arrival at the police station. I posted the link so others could make there own determination. I stated that quite point clearly in my post. My quote below.

    A neighbor saw Zimmerman less than 24 hours after the incident he had bandages on his head and nose at that time. Pretty much proof that he did seek or was provided more medical treatment after the video of his arrival.

  • 0

    yabits

    Pretty much proof that he did seek or was provided more medical treatment after the video of his arrival.

    Pretty much anyone can apply a bandage, including Zimmerman himself. So a bandage doesn't pretty much prove anything, unless it was applied by the SFD at the scene while Martin was handcuffed -- and when the wounds were still fresh. And we can see from the video that that did not happen. Once Zimmerman was released and left to his own devices, only medical records from an independent, reliable professional would provide adequate proof of the kind of treatment he received. Anything less being presented as "pretty much proof" is very misleading.

    Zimmerman has every motivation to lie and deceive, and his family and "friends" -- including those neighbors who sympathize with Zimmerman's "tough" approach to "suspicious characters" -- have a great deal of motivation to see things his way while turning a blind eye to anything that doesn't add up. I am especially skeptical of the ones who say they can't sleep over what's happening to Zimmerman when they didn't even witness the altercation that killed Martin. They are so much as admitting that, without knowing the facts, they are tremendously sympathetic to Zimmerman's side and will do what they can to "help" him.

    By contrast, the forensics experts who examined the cries and screams on the 911 call have no relationship with either side. The two scientific methods used both eliminated Zimmerman as the source of the screams. That puts Zimmerman's claims that he and not Martin was the one yelling in serious doubt.

    The laws of physics were not suspended that night. The force of a punch thrown that can knock a man of Zimmerman's relative size down and break his nose is going to have a nearly equal and opposite effect on the hand that lands it. Continuous pounding or pummeling as has been described are definitely going to leave traces. And yet Martin's hands did not bear signs of his landing those kinds of blows. And Zimmerman's face certainly doesn't show it either.

    Zimmerman's head was never banged against the pavement repeatedly as he has claimed. That is why he never submitted to any kind of CT/MRI scan -- which is standard procedure after sustaining a head injury, and would go a long way towards proving or disproving Zimmerman's claims. And that is most likely why the story shifted from "fear for his life due to the beating he was receiving" to "Martin made a grab for my weapon." Shifting stories indicate a lack of truthfulness. In the heat of a battle, Martin would not very likely be checking out Zimmerman's waist area to see if he had a weapon.

    Again, this is where the story from Zimmerman's side falls apart. During the critical moment of the struggle from Zimmerman's point of view, Martin "spots" the gun and actually is claimed to have said something to the effect of "You're going to die tonight." (Words that seem to be calm, cool and collected.) The sounds of the screaming -- Trayvon Martin's screaming -- on the tape do not appear to make that claim very plausible. If Zimmerman was the one screaming and yelling, would he even have heard Martin? But notice what Zimmerman has done here: He is trying to portray Martin as a killer who appears confident enough to get Zimmerman's gun and shoot him. It is more likely that Martin was a terrified kid who is fighting a guy older and stronger than he is. Unlike Zimmerman, Martin had no history of fighting or violence. Zimmerman is lying here too.

    It is extremely important that Zimmerman's story be accurate in all respects. Anything less raises the plausibility that Trayvon Martin was killed in a fit of rage -- or in outright cold blood -- rather than in self-defense.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Once Zimmerman was released and left to his own devices, only medical records from an independent, reliable professional would provide adequate proof of the kind of treatment he received.

    Much of the evidence, such as the autopsy report, which would show results of Trayvon's toxicology test, are not yet public record. Police have declined to release Zimmerman's statements or that of the witnesses. The Fort Lauderdale funeral director who handled the arrangement for Trayvon's family has told reporters that he saw no bruises or blood on the teen's knuckles. Police said Zimmerman provided medical records to support evidence of his injuries.

    http://www.japantoday.com/category/world/view/mass-florida-rally-after-black-teen-shot-dead

  • 1

    sailwind

    Apologies,

    Wrong link

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    Elbuda Mexicano - This is a sad, sad situation but this will not be the last time this happens, my guess it will only increase and the NRA will go laughing all the way to the bank$$$$$$!!!!

    You seem to forget that the majority of voters in Florida demanded the right to protect themselves from the violence of criminals and voted in representatives who would pass the laws that would allow them to do so. The overall crime rate in Florida has dropped since more people are allowed to protect themselves.

    The NRA only has 4 million members in a country of 310 million people.

    Martin should have just gone home instead of choosing to confront and attack Zimmerman. In spite of what the bussed in demonstrators and lynch mob types think, I doubt that the majority of voters will change their minds about being able to protect themselves while they wait for the police to arrive.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - It is extremely important that Zimmerman's story be accurate in all respects.

    It's extremely important that lynch mobs not be encouraged.

    It's extremely important that you and the lynch mobs provide actual evidence instead of flights of fancy.

    It's extremely important that the lynch mob media not be allowed to twist the facts to boost their ratings.

    You have found no evidence that A) Martin didn't attack Zimmerman or B) that Zimmerman wasn't in fear for his life. You've been desperately seeking something that backs up your preconceived guilty verdict. Unless you can PROVE that Zimmerman attacked Martin first or that Zimmerman was not afraid for his life, you have NO legally acceptable reason to charge Zimmerman with any crime in Florida. The lynch mobs could just find a rope and a tree.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Zimmerman's head was never banged against the pavement repeatedly as he has claimed. The link contians the MSNBC report with Chris Matthews.

    Even MSNBC now concedes the video taken of him shows injuries to the back of his head.

    http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV/2012/03/31/MSNBC-Admits-Zimmerman-Head-Injury

  • 0

    sailwind

    The link contians the MSNBC report with Chris Matthews.

    Not sure how that was portion was added to your above quote Yabits, That part is mine not yours.

  • 0

    The Truth Matters

    Zimmermam's brother claimed the last thing he remembered doing was moving his head from the concrete to the grass. I heard Zimmerman's brother make that claim on CNN.

    Another Zimmerman claim that is not standing up against evidence is that the autopsy of Trayvon Martin found no bruising on his knuckles. For a guy who was apparently putting a beat down, you'd think he'd scratch a knuckle or something. Autopsy says no. Zimmerman's brother has a different story.

  • -2

    The Truth Matters

    One thing is for sure, George Zimmerman's brother is sure saying a lot of TV, and to anyone who'll listen. You know who is not being heard. Trayvon. Trayvon's brother. Why isn't he on CNN telling his story of how he is shocked at how everyone is portraying is brother like a monster?

  • 1

    RomeoR

    What's interesting to note is the MSM lynch mob here in the states continues to use pictures of a 13-year-old Martin and a 250 pound Zimmerman; despite the fact that Martin was around 6 inches taller and there was only about 10 - 20 pounds in weight difference between the two, they're still trying to sell the concept that Zimmerman was bigger than a Martin.

    RR

  • -1

    yabits

    Even MSNBC now concedes the video taken of him shows injuries to the back of his head.

    This is a misleading statement. The MSNBC network has not "conceded" anything of the sort. The Hardball show had an NBC reporter showing a video enhancement of what the reporter said -- and he quickly disclaimed himself as not being a medical professional -- had some people claiming were "abrasions."

    Anybody who has ever hit their head hard on anything knows that you get -- at a minimum -- a serious bump or bruise and often a lot of bleeding. Bumps and bruises are very noticeable marks and very different from "abrasions." Again, however, a CT/MRI scan can best scientifically determine the amount of force the skull was subjected to in an injury to the head.

  • -1

    peanut666

    I find it very amusing that all the Martin supporters claim that any counter evidence to their cause is all fabrication and lies. The only thing that the Martin supporters have shown are cutie pictures of a young Treyvon, some family stories about how nice a kid he was, etc. Without presenting ANY real PROOF that Zimmerman was lying or proving that Treyvon was NOT a criminal.

    The people who are questioning Martin's supporters keep looking for real, substantiated evidence. They have pictures of Treyvon from his friend's cellphone showing him as a gangster wannabe with tattoos, his backpack contain burglary tools, his tweets denigrating women, his school records which are now sealed, stating he was suspended from drug use, , as well as being presented factual evidences from news sites, police, and eye-witlessness, as well as collaborating evidence from the 911 recordings.

    What does this all mean? It seems ridiculous to thinks that Zimmerman WANTED to kill Treyvon purposely. It seems according to witness reports that Treyvon was behaving suspiciously, was confronted by Zimmerman, a fight ensued and Treyvon was shot.

    It really doesn't matter whether Treyvon was African-American. It really doesn't matter whether his supporters say rumors that he was a good kid, or scrawny, or if he was going out for a walk. All of this is NOT evidence of Trayvon's innocence, because it doesn't PROVE anything. None of this.

    The only thing that will stand up in court are his past records, his school attendance, his behavior, eye-witness reports, the 911 recording, ALL HARD EVIDENCE which demonstrates that Treyvon was becoming a criminal.

    A lot of hard evidence has shown Zimmerman shot in self defense. It's not a matter of whether you like the outcome or not. It's a matter of finding the truth via physical and empirical evidence, and unfortunately nothing has been presented to PROVE Trayvon's innocence.

    I bet Zimmerman will be exonerated, the protestors will get mad and riot and give all those a******s an excuse to loot and pillage and destroy things.

  • -3

    sfjp330

    peanut666 Apr. 03, 2012 - 03:46AM JST. A lot of hard evidence has shown Zimmerman shot in self defense. It's not a matter of whether you like the outcome or not. It's a matter of finding the truth via physical and empirical evidence, and unfortunately nothing has been presented to PROVE Trayvon's innocence. I bet Zimmerman will be exonerated,

    Doesn't matter. Here is the problem now. The Retreat at Twin Lakes association should've set rules that warned crime watch members against arming themselves when doing anything that might be considered the business of the watch program. They should have issued proper guidelines that disallowed members from running around with guns. If the Martin family brings a wrongful-death lawsuit, more or less the association will be on the hook.

    The people who could end up paying the financial price for the shooting death of Trayvon Martin are, ultimately, the homeowners of the Twin Lakes development. If George Zimmerman charged with and convicted of killing Martin, or even if he's not convicted, the community's association and property management company probably will be sued by the victim's family over the way the program was established and operated. They may wind up getting sued and getting hit with thousands of thousands of dollars in legal fees and damages. Who will pay is every member of the association, and they will have to make special assessments.

  • -3

    peanut666

    sfjp330Apr. 03, 2012 - 07:40AM JST

    Doesn't matter. Here is the problem now. The Retreat at Twin Lakes association should've set rules that warned crime watch members against arming themselves when doing anything that might be considered the business of the watch program. They should have issued proper guidelines that disallowed members from running around with guns. If the Martin family brings a wrongful-death lawsuit, more or less the association will be on the hook

    I totally disagree. There is NO problem there. According to state law which overrules any local association rule, a person has a right to defend himself against bodily arm AND personal property by standing his ground and protecting himself. This means in Florida, if some person is trying to break into your property or house, you have a right to kill that person. You have no idea what that person will do to you, your family, or your property, so you have the legal right to stop that person, and if that person doesn't stop, you have the legal right to kill them.

    Ultimately, what this means is that if you are dumb enough to look and behave like a criminal and try to hurt someone who is protecting himself and the neighborhood the person is assigned to protect, then there is NO wrongful death suit or legal fees that will have to be paid. The only people that will have to pay for all the expenses are the ones who are supporting Trayvon Martin's fabricated innocence.

    If he was just walking outside just for candy and a drink, that 911 call would never of been made before the altercation. Obviously Martin was doing something suspicious and with his background history demonstrating that he was becoming a criminal, there is no doubt what was going to happen to him someday. It just happened to him THAT day.

  • 0

    UncleBudah

    @gyouza

    as you read,,, he was alone, No supervision from his dad, (at work)
    He already had trouble from Miami Gardens school,,,I know that Area, not top of that area, I know a kid there he gotten beaten everyday, because he is white , and many other asian kids, many Miami kids want to say Thrash,,fine, we were all Teenagers we want to feel good,,,I defended Myself,,,but In this world many many , many , Crazy people out there,,,USA, EUROPE , JAPAN , Everywhere

    Dont want to mention this, but , it just like LA Riots or the Miami Riots back in 1989, if they do, there will be more bloodshed,,,,sorry to tell you this You will never see , Latin People on riots alone, on that you know who are special

    Sad to hear about him, but if anyone crosses my lawn, I have permission to shoot anyone in florida I do not follow anyone, but please do not make it like 1989, I lived it ,,,Never WANT IT AGAIN!!

  • 0

    TigermothII

    What does Florida law says is the proper amount of beating that Zimmerman should submit to before he is allowed to defend his own life?

    Sorry, been away for a bit. Quite apparently Florida law doesn't say anything about the amount of beating (and how could it, as that could be extremely subjective to interpretation?) that one should be subjected to before taking lethal action. Also apparently to you that doesn't sound crazy; it certainly does to a lot of other people. Keep in mind, Zimmerman pulled the gun - unless you're going to contend that Martin attacked him and 'found' the gun in his pocket or waistband. That's a lot of supposition. But the cyclic reasoning part of this that you and others do not seem to get is that he shouldn't have had a gun to begin with. This isn't Dodge City in 1892. Neighborhood watches are just 'concerned citizens' who are supposed to report any questionable activity to the police. No rational law enforcement agency in the world is going to tell you that they should be armed and approach in any way for confrontation. It's a recipe for disaster, as played out here. When you arm yourself with a loaded handgun, and go out to follow or possibly approach someone who you 'suspect' (and there is a lot of question in that as well) is acting strange, what exactly do you think might happen? And if you end up killing someone as happened here, do you really think there should be no repercussions for those actions? Are you contending that it is okay to initiate confrontation and then kill the person when things don't go your way?

    All of you commenting to the contrary want to suppose and pretend that while Zimmerman might have acted stupidly, he was 'savagely attacked' and simply defended himself. In fact, you are ready to believe and exonerate Zimmerman just as readily as you accuse others for 'jumping the gun' about what happened. I'm a white, conservative, gun-owning southern guy - and even I am not stupid enough to delude myself into believing there is no racial motivation here. You throw out the 'clearly the black kid was the aggressor and up to no good' defense as easily as you might excuse tardiness for work. You seem to take it as fact that Martin was 'acting like he was on something' because Zimmerman said so. Martin was likely having the typical animated conversation with his girlfriend that my own teen-aged son might have. He was wearing a headset for his cell phone under his hoodie so it probably looked like he was talking to himself and acting 'odd'. And god forbid he had that hoodie on, it was only raining, and every teen in the country wears them now. Must have been a criminal! And to top it off he was black. We all know how THEY are....C'mon dude. I lived in a racist town with racist parents for years before I moved north and realized that old Jim Crow stupidity for what it was.

    It's an insane law followed by either a total lack of real investigation based upon tenants of this law, or just outright racism with the conclusion of 'oh well, another black kid acting like an animal and getting shot'. You know as well as I do that if it were an upscale white kid shot in a black neighborhood for 'acting suspicious' that the black shooter would be languishing in a Federal prison by now, and the case would have been headline news from the start.

    If he was just walking outside just for candy and a drink, that 911 call would never of been made before the altercation. Obviously Martin was doing something suspicious and with his background history demonstrating that he was becoming a criminal, there is no doubt what was going to happen to him someday. It just happened to him THAT day.

    And if you don't believe it has anything to do with racism, the statement above says it all. If he was just walking out for candy....911 would have never been called?? Obviously Martin was doing something suspicious?? According to Zimmerman, who remember shot him. And you don't think it's even a tad bit racist that you without blinking believe the whiter of the two guys and assume the black kid must have been 'up to something'? And don't give me the crap about him being Hispanic, that's a cop out in this melting pot. What you're almost saying without saying it in commenting on his 'background' and a predisposition for trouble is nothing short of 'the black kid was asking for it and got what he deserved'. So if you have a white teen-aged son and he skips a few classes and is maybe caught with trace amounts in a baggie of weed, he's destined for prison and deserves to be shot?

    Have you ever even considered the possibility (re Probability) that he was just walking back from the store talking to his girl on the phone when some loon with a gun started hassling him and demanding to know why he was walking down the sidewalk?

  • 1

    TigermothII

    A lot of hard evidence has shown Zimmerman shot in self defense. It's not a matter of whether you like the outcome or not. It's a matter of finding the truth via physical and empirical evidence, and unfortunately nothing has been presented to PROVE Trayvon's innocence.

    I don't think we really have all the hard evidence. So your contention is that (and forgetting who might have attacked who) even though Zimmerman was clearly in the wrong to arm himself and go looking for trouble, that he is totally innocent and was just protecting himself? Remember Trayvon did not break into Zimmerman's house, nor anyone else's. His only perceived offense was walking through a gated neighborhood (and by gated, I'll assume it's not like an Escape from NY type scenario where he had to jump fences and pick locks to get in) and supposedly acting suspicious. I would want definition of that - what exactly was he doing to 'act suspicious'? Was he looking in the windows of houses or cars? If I want to walk down the street like a crab while howling at the moon, that might be 'suspicious' but it's still my right I believe. It's quite obvious, even if you're not the Sherlock Holmes type that because Martin approached Zimmerman he was made aware that Zimmerman was following him. Common sense tells you that means Zimmerman said something to him first. Even if Martin is this terrible 'gangsta' that you want to make him into, he most likely would not have approached Zimmerman, or even have taken notice of him unless Zimmerman said something to him or somehow made contact. To me that makes Zimmerman guilty. Facts: Zimmerman armed himself, saw what he perceived as suspicious behavior (again, his perception) and called police. The dispatcher told him not to follow but wait for the cops. He took it upon himself to do so anyway, and then obviously approached Martin which resulted in some type of confrontation. This resulted in a second one in which Zimmerman drew his gun. Whether Martin was trying to take it is immaterial - he must have taken it out and shown it for it to come into play. Then he shoots and kills Martin. Either he was getting his butt kicked, or he was playing John Wayne. Either way he caused the confrontation, and he brought the gun to the party.

  • -1

    yabits

    I'm a white, conservative, gun-owning southern guy - and even I am not stupid enough to delude myself into believing there is no racial motivation here.

    Several times in the thread, I found myself asking this question: "How would a person who genuinely feels that most blacks are inferior and naturally inclined towards criminal behavior portray this event?" and "How would their portrayal be any different than the people here who won't acknowledge that Trayvon Martin had a right to defend himself against an assault by an armed man?"

    Trayvon's "infractions" were all misperceptions in Zimmerman's mind. Talking on the phone while walking home in the rain, after taking shelter near the clubhouse -- (a common area for residents) -- none of that was illegal. Even looking at houses from the street is harmless. (It is the sick or warped mind that automatically ascribes bad intent to harmless activity.) Like you said, and what we know, Trayvon was on the phone to his girlfriend so he easily could have been animated and looking like "he was on drugs" to someone with high-suspicion and low understanding.

    The autopsy on Martin found his system to be free of drugs, so Zimmerman was obviously way wrong in his observations. At some point, Zimmerman was seeing what his worse impulses wanted him to see. He was on the trail of an ---hole criminal, and there was just no way he was going to give up the pursuit. That's why his claim of turning back from the chase (after he got in range of Martin) is a complete and utter lie.

  • -1

    sfjp330

    peanut666 Apr. 03, 2012 - 03:46AM JST It seems according to witness reports that Treyvon was behaving suspiciously, was confronted by Zimmerman, a fight ensued and Treyvon was shot. It really doesn't matter whether Treyvon was African-American. A lot of hard evidence has shown Zimmerman shot in self defense. It's not a matter of whether you like the outcome or not. It's a matter of finding the truth via physical and empirical evidence, and unfortunately nothing has been presented to PROVE Trayvon's innocence.

    If there was a fight betwee Zimmerman, who weighs 250lbs against Martin, who weighs 140lbs, don't you think there would be some bruise mark on Martin's body? The funeral director who handled the body of Trayvon Martin in preparation for his burial has said that the young man showed no signs of the physical struggle alleged by Zimmerman, who claims he shot the teenager in self defense. Martin showed none of the signs normally associated with a fight.

    Funeral director said, “In dressing the body, we could see no physical signs that there had been a scuffle or there had been a fight. You know, on the hands, I didn’t see any knuckles bruised, and that is something we would have covered up if it had been there. Trayvon Martin’s body looked perfectly normal to me, except for the gunshot wound that ended his life."

  • 0

    yabits

    If there was a fight betwee Zimmerman, who weighs 250lbs against Martin, who weighs 140lbs

    Actually, the initial stats published in a lot of places were not accurate. Zimmerman outweighed Martin by anywhere from 20 to 35 pounds -- according to best estimates. As the video shows, Zimmerman had slimmed down since the days of his mug-shot photo.

  • 1

    yabits

    It appears that, last September, George Zimmerman organized a meeting at the community clubhouse in which the Sanford Police Department went over the rules and guidelines of Neighborhood Watch volunteers. Several news agencies received copies of the powerpoint presentation delivered to Zimmerman and the other volunteers.

    Two of the several points that the police were emphatic about: 1) No weapons, and 2) Never pursue suspects.

    Zimmerman knew better and made a decision to disregard the rules. He was in the wrong the minute he stepped out of his vehicle to pursue Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman's townhouse is completely on the opposite corner of the housing developement -- nowhere near where the altercation took place -- and so his only purpose was to chase down Trayvon, who did nothing wrong.

    Naturally, innocently walking home as he was, Trayvon would have no idea why he was being pursued. But he had every right to defend himself against an unidentified potential assailant.

  • 1

    Lieberman2012

    Prominent leftist journo Kevin Drum, writing for Mother Jones about the calculated disinformation campaign the MSM is guilty of in reporting on the tragedy in Sanford:

    "This is now fated to be Exhibit A in conservative charges of mainstream media bias for about the next century or so. And who can blame them? What a cockup."

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    I guess Yabits missed the story about a previous scandal (late 2010) in Sanford. A homeless man (African American) had been beaten, and by the son of a local cop. There was outrage at the time but it appears only one person had the courage to organize for justice - - -

    "Do you know who waited for the church-goers to get out of church so that he could hand them flyers in an attempt to organize the black community against this horrible miscarriage of justice? Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8, 2011 at Sanford City Hall?? That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN."

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/04/daniel-zimmerman/quote-of-the-day-narrative-destroying-edition/

  • -1

    yabits

    Prominent leftist journo Kevin Drum, writing for Mother Jones about the calculated disinformation campaign the MSM is guilty of in reporting

    Yellow scribbler Lieerman2012 claims Drum is writing about a calculated campaign by the entire MSM. The fact is that Drum is writing about one, and only one, incident: the botching of the 911 call by NBC.

    Actually, it is Lieerman2012 who conducts the calculated campaign against anything resembling the truth. See the link to find out what Drum was really talking about:

    http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/04/nbc-jumps-shark-george-zimmerman

  • 0

    yabits

    I guess Yabits missed the story about a previous scandal (late 2010) in Sanford

    That would be because it's totally irrelevant to this topic.

    Do you know who helped organize the City Hall meeting on January 8, 2011 at Sanford City Hall?? That person was GEORGE ZIMMERMAN."

    Well, whoop-dee-freaking-doo. Did the African-American community, in its gratitude, award George with a "Kill-One-Black-and-Get-Out-Of-Jail-Scot-Free" Card? Next, I suppose I'm going to hear that OJ sent his ex-wife a nice gift a year before he "visited" her for the last time -- like it's supposed to mean anything.

    HIs former co-worker describes George as a Jekyll-Hyde type. Jekyll was the one organizing the meeting.

    Actually, this helps explain Zimmerman's motivation on the night he killed Trayvon Martin: "I do all this organizin' for justice for you people and this is how you repay me? By coming in my neighborhood to act like you're up to no good, and then running away? Well, I'll show you, you [expletive and racial slur deleted].

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    Yahoo has gotten around to publishing the report of the police who first arrived on the scence

    "Trayvon Martin police report reveals Zimmerman 'was bleeding from the nose and the back of the head'

  • 0

    Lieberman2012

    yabits

    "Actually, this helps explain Zimmerman's motivation on the night he killed Trayvon Martin: "I do all this organizin' for justice for you people and this is how you repay me? By coming in my neighborhood to act like you're up to no good, and then running away? Well, I'll show you, you [expletive and racial slur deleted]."

    More projection....

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - Sorry, been away for a bit. Quite apparently Florida law doesn't say anything about the amount of beating (and how could it, as that could be extremely subjective to interpretation?) that one should be subjected to before taking lethal action. Also apparently to you that doesn't sound crazy; it certainly does to a lot of other people. Keep in mind, Zimmerman pulled the gun - unless you're going to contend that Martin attacked him and 'found' the gun in his pocket or waistband. That's a lot of supposition. But the cyclic reasoning part of this that you and others do not seem to get is that he shouldn't have had a gun to begin with.

    According to Florida State law, Zimmerman can carry a firearm and Zimmerman passed the federal National background check. The lynch mob types disagree with that but that is what the voters in Florida wanted. Zimmerman's brother says that Martin did try to grab Zimmerman's legally owned and carried firearm after Martin had knocked Zimmerman to the ground.

    All you have to do is prove that "something else" happened that night. Prove. The police do not have any evidence that Zimmerman attacked Martin first. The lynch mobs OPINION, race-baiting, and fantasy does not matter. Martin's GF, and please correct me if I'm wrong, has not yet talked to the police department. Who is Martin's GF protecting? She's fed the lynch mob information but not the police?

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Yellow scribbler Lieerman2012

    ANOTHER personal attack? I'm starting to get the impression that you know you're losing the discussion and need to resort to personal attacks to bolster your losing effort.

    yabits - Actually, this helps explain Zimmerman's motivation on the night he killed Trayvon Martin: "I do all this organizin' for justice for you people and this is how you repay me? By coming in my neighborhood to act like you're up to no good, and then running away? Well, I'll show you, you [expletive and racial slur deleted].

    You made this up. It's a strawman argument at best and anti-Peruvian slander as the worst. Zimmerman has a history of helping all his neighbors. You decided that Zimmerman was guilty when you first heard the lynch mob media and bloggers making wild accusation against him. It's getting tougher and tougher for you to support the original lynch mob theories and out right lies.

    I'll give you a hint. The State Attorney can not charge Zimmerman with manslaughter unless they can PROVE that Zimmerman attacked Martin first or that Zimmerman was NOT in fear for his life. The SA has eyewitnesses that back up Zimmerman's statement of what happened. the SA also has statements from people who admit that they didn't SEE anything.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Naturally, innocently walking home as he was, Trayvon would have no idea why he was being pursued. But he had every right to defend himself against an unidentified potential assailant.

    Martin could have continued walking to his home. Innocently, of course. Neither Martin or Zimmerman did anything illegal until the fight started. Martin had several minutes headstart on Zimmerman from the time Zimmerman lost sight of Martin. Plenty of time to put distance between himself and Zimmerman. Martin would have been very close to his home by then. Why did Martin wait or came back to confront Zimmerman? Martin seems to have made several bad choices in his life but choosing to attack Zimmerman was a really bad one.

    The SA needs to know who started the fight. They have statements that say Martin started the fight. There are no eyewitnesses that say Zimmerman started the fight. Oh my, what's a prosecuting attorney supposed to do? Lie to appease the lynch mob types?

  • -1

    sailwind

    For the record. I've been looking through Zimmerman's calls to 911 that were not related to this event. The first report that I can find that he actually y calls about a black male in his neighborhood 04/22/2011 it is on Page 37. It details him reporting a BM Apprx 7-9 YOA 04Ft / Skinny.

    He's calling 911 on this 9 year black kid. Unbelievable and so is his so called "reason".

    COMPL ADVD S43 IS WALKING ALONE & NOT SUPERVISED ON BUSY STREET // COMPL IS CONCERNED FOR WELL BEING.

    http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

  • -1

    yabits

    They have statements that say Martin started the fight.

    No one has yet produced an eyewitness statement that says Martin started the fight. All eyewitnesses describe a fight already in progress.

    Bring on the next falsehood.

  • -1

    yabits

    Unbelievable and so is his so called "reason".

    Jekyll is concerned about well-being because he knows about Hyde. Like Goh and Bales, when they snap, they snap.

    When you disregard directives from the police, you are showing contempt for law and order. And, in September of 2011, the Sanford Police presented to George Zimmerman and the other volunteers the directives for Neighborhood Watch: 1) No weapons; 2) Do not pursue suspects.

    Zimmerman must have snapped that night to have shown such contempt for simple rules.

  • -1

    yabits

    Martin had several minutes headstart on Zimmerman from the time Zimmerman lost sight of Martin.

    You do not have the timeline of events, and therefore can not know if "several minutes" elapsed from the time Zimmerman left his truck to when he caught up to Martin. The records of Trayvon's call to his girlfriend compared with Zimmerman's last 911 call will help get a better timeline.

    But to declare that several minutes elapsed is a falsehood.

  • -1

    TigermothII

    According to Florida State law, Zimmerman can carry a firearm and Zimmerman passed the federal National background check. The lynch mob types disagree with that but that is what the voters in Florida wanted.

    Yes, okay - conceded. Zimmerman had a carry permit and could legally carry a firearm - I get it for crying out loud. I can legally walk around with a pick axe tucked in my belt - but that doesn't mean it's a good idea, or that if I later kill someone with it because I perceived they were going to hurt me that it's good and sane and right. A carry permit does not mean open season on your fellow man. I seriously doubt that Florida voters meant the interpretation to be that any idiot that perceives threat can open fire and walk away scott free.

    A carry permit does not make you in any way/shape/form a law enforcement officer. When you see someone walking through your neighborhood that you deem suspicious you are not entitled by your carry permit, nor your voluntary involvement with the neighborhood watch program to approach them in any way - which he quite obviously did.

    Martin could have continued walking to his home. Innocently, of course. Neither Martin or Zimmerman did anything illegal until the fight started.

    Yeah, he could have - if some dude hadn't thought him 'suspicious' and decided to follow him while armed. If we assume that Martin 'attacked' or in some way initiated a physical confrontation with Zimmerman, than I think it's also fair to say that Zimmerman must have either said something initially to Martin, or at the very least approached him in some way - otherwise Martin would not have paid him any attention and fought with him. Fair enough?

    This is of course conjecture, but I can see it going down like this: Zimmerman see's Martin walking through his neighborhood and calls the cops. Why? Because he's acing suspicious. What does that mean exactly? No one has ever produced any argument or statement from Zimmerman that Martin was doing anything illegal - but seems only to be guilty in Zimmerman's mind because he was a young black male walking through the neighborhood 'acting suspicious'. So Zimmerman makes the 911 call, tucks his gun in pants and walks out to follow Martin. At some point he simply must have said something to him or approached him. My bet is he asked him what he was doing or something to that effect. This p*sses Martin off. Wouldn't it you? 'Here we go again - I'm young, I'm black, I'm in a neighborhood not my own - I must be up to something'. He likely got smart with Zimmerman and words were exchanged. They parted ways. Trayvon was young, and proud. I would be incensed that someone approached me with assumptions, based mostly upon color and perception, and so likely was Trayvon. It didn't sit well, so he went back to confront Zimmerman. Who started the scuffle? Who can say? Zimmerman will tell you his side, but he killed Martin, so we can't get his. I don't think Zimmerman suffered any sort of beating. I think words were exchanged, and Zimmerman was one of those types - nice guy, but not a fighter and easily ruffled/flustered. He felt more of a big man with his gun. Most guys his age don't apply for carry permits unless they think it empowers them a bit in some way. Martin's knuckles were not bruised according to the ME so he likely just pushed Zimmerman to the ground. Zimmerman might have yelled for help - but that in no way means he was being pummeled within an inch of his life. He was flustered, angry and confused. He thought he could approach Martin and he (Martin) would just clear out quickly. He wasn't counting on Martin not respecting his authority - of which he had none. So when Martin came at him again, he shot him.

    And now because of f'd up Florida law, all he has to do is claim self defense and walk. Who can dispute him? He killed Martin so it's his word against that of a dead kid. And now a lot of white folks are eager to point out that Martin was no boyscout, was black, god-forbid wore that hoodie thing, and had pictures taken of himself that show he must be in a gang or something (or perhaps if you would clear the white man's hysteria from your eyes you might see he was dressed like any other kid in his peer group - sorry kids don't all dress like the suburban white ones who live in half million dollar homes and are given new cars for HS graduation).

    It's funny because in the past I have always been the conservative white guy who none-the-less believes himself to be non-racist. I've always thought that racism against African Americans was more self-generated by their own actions and within their own communities than perpetuated by racist white Americans. I've learned something, that while some of my beliefs may be still true, I have to realize that oh yes indeed - white America is still as racist as ever. We've made strides and are a long, long way off from the days of segregation and Jim Crow. But the purposeful vilification of Trayvon Martin, who after all was just an innocent kid walking home through a neighborhood, by the segment of white America that refuses to acknowledge any hint of racism might exist by sadly applying racist condemnations is extremely telling.

    From a legal standpoint, I think tragically Zimmerman will get away with it. On a moral standpoint I think we'll have shown that we have lost in even being close to the type of society that we should be. When Zimmerman is cleared, some will riot - and folks like ArrestPaul and Lieberman will imperiously say 'I told you so'.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    sailwind - For the record. I've been looking through Zimmerman's calls to 911 that were not related to this event. The first report that I can find that he actually y calls about a black male in his neighborhood 04/22/2011 it is on Page 37. It details him reporting a BM Apprx 7-9 YOA 04Ft / Skinny.

    He's calling 911 on this 9 year black kid. Unbelievable and so is his so called "reason".

    COMPL ADVD S43 IS WALKING ALONE & NOT SUPERVISED ON BUSY STREET // COMPL IS CONCERNED FOR WELL BEING.

    Hahahaha. Good find. Why should anyone be concerned that a child is walking alone, along side a busy road by himself? It's not like the child could be hit by a car.

    Maybe Zimmerman should not have given an accurate description to the police. Maybe Zimmerman should just have told the police that he can't tell them what color the child is because that would have been politically incorrect.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - No one has yet produced an eyewitness statement that says Martin started the fight. All eyewitnesses describe a fight already in progress.

    Zimmerman says Martin started a fight. All you have to do is prove him wrong.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    yabits - You do not have the timeline of events, and therefore can not know if "several minutes" elapsed from the time Zimmerman left his truck to when he caught up to Martin. The records of Trayvon's call to his girlfriend compared with Zimmerman's last 911 call will help get a better timeline.

    Zimmerman's 9-1-1 call has been released including the time he said he lost sight of Martin.

    Police and media have the phone company records showing the time that Matin's phone call with his GF ended.

    You'll have to combine them to produce your own timeline.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - This is of course conjecture, but I can see it going down like this: Zimmerman see's Martin walking through his neighborhood and calls the cops. Why? Because he's acing suspicious. What does that mean exactly? No one has ever produced any argument or statement from Zimmerman that Martin was doing anything illegal - but seems only to be guilty in Zimmerman's mind because he was a young black male walking through the neighborhood 'acting suspicious'. So Zimmerman makes the 911 call, tucks his gun in pants and walks out to follow Martin. At some point he simply must have said something to him or approached him. My bet is he asked him what he was doing or something to that effect. This p*sses Martin off. Wouldn't it you? 'Here we go again - I'm young, I'm black, I'm in a neighborhood not my own - I must be up to something'. He likely got smart with Zimmerman and words were exchanged. They parted ways. Trayvon was young, and proud. I would be incensed that someone approached me with assumptions, based mostly upon color and perception, and so likely was Trayvon. It didn't sit well, so he went back to confront Zimmerman. Who started the scuffle? Who can say? Zimmerman will tell you his side, but he killed Martin, so we can't get his. I don't think Zimmerman suffered any sort of beating. I think words were exchanged, and Zimmerman was one of those types - nice guy, but not a fighter and easily ruffled/flustered. He felt more of a big man with his gun. Most guys his age don't apply for carry permits unless they think it empowers them a bit in some way. Martin's knuckles were not bruised according to the ME so he likely just pushed Zimmerman to the ground. Zimmerman might have yelled for help - but that in no way means he was being pummeled within an inch of his life. He was flustered, angry and confused. He thought he could approach Martin and he (Martin) would just clear out quickly. He wasn't counting on Martin not respecting his authority - of which he had none. So when Martin came at him again, he shot him.

    Are you willing to swear to this in court because no one else is. That's the real issue isn't it. While we speculate on the internet, there are people who claim that Zimmerman is a Jeckle and Hyde and there are other people who repeat that as if it were fact or prove who started the fight. The lynch mob types are claiming that Zimmerman is "obviously" guilty but have nothing but their opinion to back up those "claims".

    According to the laws of Florida, the SA needs evidence that a law was violated or a "crime" was committed. "Feelings" don't count. "Inuendo" doesn't count either.

    Who started the fight and was Zimmerman in fear for his life? Those are the questions that need to be answered BEFORE charges can be brought.

    IF - Zimmerman started the fight, then he should be put on trial.

    IF - Zimmerman was losing a fist fight and shot Martin only because he was losing, then Zimmerman should be put on trial.

    All the SA has to do is "prove" that either of these senerios are true. If they can't prove that now, how are they going to prove that in court?

  • 0

    TigermothII

    Well, the unfortunate part is that Zimmerman can give his side, and Martin cannot. I'm not sure if there are any witnesses who can attest to the whole series of events, or just those who got bits and pieces. A witness might have seen Zimmerman on the ground with Martin standing over him - but what does that really prove? Did Zimmerman say something to provoke? Did he push Martin first? You can surely bet that if so he's not going to admit to it. It will be interesting to see if the police did their job and collected and saved forensic evidence, which can show a great deal. For instance if Trayvon were trying to wrestle the gun from Zimmerman, there would be powder burns and residue perhaps on hands or clothing. What was the true extend of Zimmerman's injuries? Did he ever go to hospital? Is there more than just the police video? Did they take photographs of Zimmerman's injuries as any normal even semi-competent police force would when investigating a shooting, particularly one resulting in death?

    But again that's the end result of it - and you only seem to look at who started the fight. Yes, Zimmerman was allowed to carry a gun. And yes by Florida law he could defend himself with it. But in cases of manslaughter - and I don't know the extent of the law on these charges - I would assume that negligence and endangerment can play into it. If a person knowingly arms them self with a gun and pursues someone, then confronts them - whether physically or not I should think that the negligence of their actions could play into it.

    It's Zimmerman's word against the evidence, so we'll see how it plays out. But no matter how you want to portray Zimmerman as the community caring, local good guy he was still a huge idiot for taking the actions he did that night that caused a tragic outcome. Idiocy isn't against the law per say, but when it gets someone killed perhaps it should be.

  • 0

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - but what does that really prove?

    Exactly. What can be proven. It's one thing to have a friendly discussion on the internet but it's quite another to convict or arrest or force someone to hire a lawyer (yuck). There is a combination of many events that evening and poor decisions that lead to a fatal confrontation. Those actions weren't illegal. Only the actions during the fight can lead to a conviction or trial. If there is no evidence that Zimmerman violated Florida law, on what grounds would the State of Florida arrest Zimmerman? According to Florida law, Zimmerman didn't violate any Florida laws. The SA can't invent a new law to arrest Zimmerman. That's illegal.

  • -1

    TigermothII

    Well, depending upon what evidence exists (opinions aside), the law he might have broken in the great state of Florida is murder.

  • -1

    yabits

    Zimmerman says Martin started a fight. All you have to do is prove him wrong.

    At some point, Florida law is on trial here. Martin had a right under Florida law to stand his ground and protect himself from someone he perceived as threatening him. Since Martin was much closer to his home -- and heading there while he was being threatened -- his claim to self-defense would override any such claim by Zimmerman. Just like as intruder can't kill a homeowner and claim self-defense if the homeowner grabs a weapon and the intruder kills him/her to protect himself.

    Zimmerman was far away from his townhouse, which public records indicate is at the far corner of the community from Martin's house. Zimmerman was heading in the opposite direction of his home, pursuing an innocent person completely on his own volition.

    He certainly could not claim to be pursuing Martin as part his duties as a Neighborhood Watch. The rules for all Watch volunteers in that community -- as spelled out for them by the Sanford Police in a September 2011 meeting -- is No Weapons, and No Pursuits of suspects. Zimmerman had no right to run after Trayvon Martin with a loaded weapon uniess it can be proven that Martin was in the act of committing a felony. Merely appearing "up to no good" doesn't cut it. You're now violating federal laws which protect Americans from actions taken by people like Zimmerman.

    The prolonged screaming in the 911 video would indicate to most juries that the person screaming was the one in fear for his life, and his assailant could therefore not claim "self-defense." Either a Florida jury will see it that way, or a Federal case will see it that way and find Zimmerman guilty of depriving Martin of his civil rights.

    The total lack of any serious injury to Zimmerman -- verified by SFD's checking him at the scene and cancelling the ambulance on its way to take him to hospital -- reveals that he is a gutless coward. Big man with a gun couldn't follow some basic rules, and couldn't handle a completely unarmed 17-year-old kid in a scuffle, and had to shoot him as his victim screamed for help.

  • 1

    arrestpaul

    TigermothII - Well, depending upon what evidence exists (opinions aside), the law he might have broken in the great state of Florida is murder.

    That's even harder to prove than manslaughter. Now you have to prove that Zimmerman "intended" to kill someone that evening.

  • -2

    Lieberman2012

    Since Martin was much closer to his home -- and heading there while he was being threatened -- his claim to self-defense would override any such claim by Zimmerman

    Dont forget though that Martin was a temporary visitor to the gated community, staying at his father's g.f.'s place, and there because he had been kicked out of his school, soome 200 milies away. After reading his twitter and facebook postings I'm inclined to believe (pure speculation, of course) that he was stoned, wasnt casing anyone's house but had maybe lost his way, hence Zimmerman's quote that he was " just looking about."

  • -2

    arrestpaul

    yabits - At some point, Florida law is on trial here.

    Laws are changed all the time. Elected representatives need to do what they need to do. If the voters don't approve of what their elected reps do, they'll elect someone who will. The lynch mobs are not very appealing to the voters and voters may insist that the law not be changed because of the threatening nature of the lynch mobs. If Sharpton says the law should be change, that's a good reason that the law should not be changed. It's all up to the voters.

    Martin had a right under Florida law to stand his ground and protect himself from someone he perceived as threatening him.

    Yes, he does. And so did Zimmerman. Who was defending themself, who was attacking, and what can be proven in court?

    Since Martin was much closer to his home -- and heading there while he was being threatened -- his claim to self-defense would override any such claim by Zimmerman.....

    Martin may have "felt" threatened but he wasn't actually "being" threatened according to State laws. Self defense only applies to the actual, physical attack.

    Zimmerman was far away from his townhouse....

    He certainly could not claim to be pursuing Martin as part his duties as a Neighborhood Watch......

    Zimmerman and his neighbors have been patrolling their neighborhood for over a year. It was Zimmerman's turn to drive/walk around his neighborhood. There was no court order preventing Zimmerman from being where he was.

    The prolonged screaming in the 911 video would indicate to most juries that the person screaming was the one in fear for his life.....

    That is very important. At least one eyewitness says Zimmerman was crying out for help. An audio expert's preliminary test says that PROBABLY wasn't Zimmerman's voice. However, that same expert had explained previously that courts requires such tests to include several examples of a person's voice saying the exact same words in question. The courts can require a suspect to provide a voice sample of those exact same words. The results of this particular test wouldn't be allowed in court. The expert would have to make a second test that met the court's requirements before the court will accept the results.

    The total lack of any serious injury to Zimmerman....

    State law does not require "serious" injury before you can defend yourself. Zimmerman was injured. If the funeral director is willing to tell the court, under oath, that Martin had no injuries from a fist fight, what will the judge or jury think? One person had injuries and the other did not. Who was attacking who?

    Zimmerman says Martin started a fight. All you have to do is prove him wrong and the SA can have Zimmerman arrest and brought to trial.

  • -2

    serendipitous

    Oh America. You continue to embarrass yourself. Just another on the ever-growing list of incidents that prove the U.S. really is a basket case. Is this the model we are supposed to emulate? How sad that you need your guns. How sad that you don't realize you are just destroying yourselves.

  • -2

    yabits

    In the latest development, Zimmerman's defense team has brought up "shaken baby syndrome" -- no kidding -- as their explanation of how a tussle with Trayvon could have caused serious injuries that are completely invisible.

    If the funeral director is willing to tell the court, under oath, that Martin had no injuries from a fist fight, what will the judge or jury think?

    Martin had injuries from a gunshot wound to the chest. No marks on Trayvon's hands means Zimmerman is a liar. No sign of a broken nose means Zimmerman was lying.

  • -1

    arrestpaul

    yabits - Martin had injuries from a gunshot wound to the chest. No marks on Trayvon's hands means Zimmerman is a liar. No sign of a broken nose means Zimmerman was lying.

    Martin stopped his attack on Zimmerman after Zimmerman was forced to shoot him in self defense. There are witnesses that are willing to tell that to the grand jury.

    The false stories hawked by the lynch mob media won't be presented to the grand jury unless someone is willing to perjure themselves under oath.

  • -1

    peanut666

    I totally agree. Most of the Martin supporters are using fabricated statements or speculation that have no basis in reality, no basis in truth. When all the hard evidence comes in, justice will be served. Zimmerman will be found innocent, that Martin's death was caused by self defense. Then the riots shall begin.

Login to leave a comment

OR
  • 営業/建設機械  

    営業/建設機械  
    MB Japan 株式会社、埼玉県
    給与:給与要相談 歩合制 給与参考例・・・2013年度営業職月給平均 45万円  
  • Teacher for Children and After School Care

    Teacher for Children and After School Care
    Spike and Ai International After School、神奈川県
    給与:月給 26万円 ~ 30万円
  • スクールスタッフ | School Staff

    スクールスタッフ | School Staff
    ファーストラーニング松戸校 - First Learning (Matsudo)、千葉県
    給与:月給 22万円 ~ 25万円 相談可 3ヶ月のトレーニング/見習い期間は18万円/月からスタート
  • External Affairs Media Coordinator

    External Affairs Media Coordinator
    The American Chamber of Commerce in Japan / 在日米国商工会議所 (ACCJ)、東京都
    給与:給与についての記載なし
  • リサ―チ アナリスト

    リサ―チ アナリスト
    Promar Consulting / プロマーコンサルティング、東京都
    給与:給与要相談 Depends on experience

More in World

View all

View all