Obama, McCain argue over war, taxes in 1st debate
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0
SushiSake3
Add that to the list of mccain flip-flops.
Kudos to mccain. This could be the last day of his serious campaign.
With Palin talking like a mumbling idiot, will her boss outdo her?
Only time will tell.
Cannot wait to watch this debate.
0
USARonin
This is an example of Obama's speakin' eloquence and what McCain should be very afraid of this evening:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qp0hU1THjuc
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Sarge
Sushi - "mccain flip-flops"
Sushi, you crack me up. If McCain had decided not to attend Friday's debate, you'd be saying he's afraid to debate Obama.
Ronin - Uh!
0
zurcronium
sarge, maccain is afraid. He just has to debate obama anyway.
Its official, mccain is the grim reaper of the repub party. It just may not survive the failure twins of bush and mccain.
Cant beat that boys!
0
TheNewFed
zucronium- McCain is not afraid buddy! You guys really makec me angry man, with your lies and rumors.
McCain will demolish Obama , just wait and see.
I wonder if Obaama remembers to wear his pin. Hee Hee!
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smithinjapan
Hahahaha.... as I said, lose lose for McCain to have announced his desire to post-pone the debate. Now he has not only flip-flopped, but he has done so to meet OBAMA'S DEMANDS! hahahah!
If he had decided to stick to his guns against Obama here and not attend the debate, despite the fact it's known he could do nothing in Washington, you'd have the righties on here crying out, "What a maverick! What a solid guy!" Instead you have them desperately scrambling to spin this into something good...
Hilarious! McCain has proven how utterly weak and unable to lead he is, while Obama has held steadfast and strong in his resolve to do this debate.
sarge: "Sushi, you crack me up. If McCain had decided not to attend Friday's debate, you'd be saying he's afraid to debate Obama."
And so would many others, and rightly so. Does that mean that now that McCain has cowed to public pressure and is flip-flopping that we should not comment on said flip-flopping? Of COURSE we should! It points out how feeble he would be when it came to leading your country -- he wouldn't stand strong on his resolutions, would bow down to corporations with power (thus leading to the kind of problems you're having now!), and would bail out on all his promises. Before we were pointing out his lack of preparation and his cowardice in trying to post-pone the inevitable; now we are pointing out his hypocrisy, ineptitude, and his inability to commit. They ALL make him a bad choice to lead, of course, but that's beside the point in relation to your comment.
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USARonin
Smith, you really believe that stuff?
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eastcoast
According to McCain, if we wait another week, the economy should be back to sound financial ground shouldn't it? It WAS just there last week.
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SezWho2
Perhaps Obama was responding to the President's call to convene a bipartisan council. Obama was not the one who issued a call to postpone the debates and suspend campaigning in order to pay lip-service to the problem.
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USARonin
eastcoast, how has this affected you?
So far, it's been a huge non-issue for me and all the folks I know.
My advice: (1) Don't play the stock market because investors get hosed all the time, and (2) don't borrow money, i.e. non-fixed rate mortgages, that you can't repay down the road.
Most of my countrymen are largely unsympathetic to these financial messes others of my countrymen always manage to get themselves in to.
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USARonin
Sez, then why did Obama rush to the White House to join McCain?
To pay "lip service" maybe?
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moonbeams
watch it live!
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=4226934&ch=4226736&src=news
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USARonin
I'm watchin' it now.
By flip of the coin, Obama spoke first and used this opportunity to make a personal attack on McCain.
When McCain's first response came: Thel first thing he said was he was concerned Democratic Senator Kennedy has been hospitalized (and may even be dead as he speaks).
Character.
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Nippon5
just go to bloomberg tv on Cable kddi its funny so far
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TheNewFed
Obama is looking like a fool, the sharp mind and wit of McCain is destroying Obama and his 5th grade responses. Hahahaha.
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USARonin
When they show the two side by side and McCain is speakin', you can clearly see that Obama is emotionally irritated and keeps tryin' to get the moderator to let him cut in.
Obama is now speakin' and raisin' his voice.
Nippon is right. This is really somethin' so far.
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USARonin
Obama hammered McCain for "big business".
McCain then brought up the recent bill to give tax breaks help "the oil companies" which McCain voted against and Obama voted for.
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USARonin
They're asked what they want to change in the budget.
Obama doesn't answer the question but says what he thinks is important. -A lot of stuff on alternative energy "Universal healthcare" is not mentioned.
McCain wants to cut overall spending. He wants funds spent on "ethanol" stopped, for one. He mentions almost 7 billion he cut from DOD and Boeing contracts.
The moderator says it seems neither one is offering anything that constitutes "change".
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smithinjapan
USAronin: "Smith, you really believe that stuff?"
The real baffling question (as I know your response) is, do you really believe John McCain??
"When McCain's first response came: Thel first thing he said was he was concerned Democratic Senator Kennedy has been hospitalized (and may even be dead as he speaks).
Character."
Ummm... no, that's called changing the topic to try and shirk the blame. Trust me, if McCain had first dibs on speaking the topic would definitely NOT have been Kennedy.
Culpability.
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USARonin
They're both fightin' about "Iraq" right now.
Obama won't let McCain finish speakin' and the moderator is unsuccessful several times to get Obama to hold up.
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USARonin
Obama states getting OBL in Afghanistan is the priority, not Iraq.
McCain says pullin' out of Iraq will create a wider war and that generals agree Iraq is the "central battleground".
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USARonin
Obama wants Afghanistan to stop their "poppy trade" and Pakistan will have to "be addressed".
McCain says he doesn't want to cut off aid to Pakistan and that Obama shouldn't say "out loud" that he wants to make airstrikes on Pakistan.
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smithinjapan
USAronin: "Obama won't let McCain finish speakin' and the moderator is unsuccessful several times to get Obama to hold up."
You've gotta be kidding me.... When Obama's done speaking and it's supposed to go to the next topic, McCain won't shut up every time the moderator tries to raise the point that the question is closed!
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USARonin
McCain says he "wears" a bracelet given to him bearing the name of her KIA son.
Obama says he "has" a bracelet "too" and fumbles for the soldier's name. He eventually comes up with a name.
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USAFdude
It is so encouraging watching Obama wipe the floor with McCain like this! Everyone in my unit is absolutely cheering!
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USARonin
(Smith, moderator states speakers are "even on time".)
Obama want out of Iraq and announces 16-month timeline.
McCain says Obama can't see there's a relationship between Iraq and Afghanistan.
Obama states Iran is a "terroristic" nation and state other terroristic organization they've aligned themselves with and that Iran cannot continue buildin' centrifuges and some other stuff.
McCain states Obama wants to speak "without precondition" leaders such as Raoul Castro, Kim Il Sung and Armjinajihad, the latter of who is "in New York right now" preachin' the extermination of the Jews.
Obama says Armjinajihad may not be "the most powerful person to speak with" in Iran.
(McCain can't stop smilin' as Obama goes on.)
0
kjunluc2
********Obama is a shining star. He can't shut up. I think he's trying for the KKK vote. (sarcasm)
Four years ago I would have ran to vote for McCain but not now. We don't need a man in the oval office who doesn't know how many multi-million dollar homes he owns, can't decide whether to rebate or not, and will continue Bush's footprints for the next 4 years. I still respect McCain for his service time but nothing more. Anyway, he looks damned near moribund. Ain't votin' for Obama either. But, if I were forced to vote at gunpoint it would be for McCain.
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USARonin
McCain corrects a couple of things about US foreign policy that Obama has just stated. (Maybe that's why he couldn't get that smile off his kisser while Obama was speakin'.)
Obama then agrees with McCain as if he (Obama) hadn't said them in the first place.
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USARonin
McCain laughs loudly at Obama and tells him he'd like to be present at some of these "diplomatic" scenarios Obama has come up with. Obama tries to cut in but McCain is havin' too much of a good time.
He asks at one point, "What are you goin' to say when you sit down with Armjinajihad and he tells you he's gonna wipe the Jews off tghe face of the earth?"
I should be havin' such a good time.
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USARonin
McCain says Obama's response to Russia's invasion of Georgia was, "Both sides must show restraint".
Obama counters America's verbal response to this action should have been "more forceful".
Moderator: Please stop posting a running account of the debate. Just post your general impressions.
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USAFdude
McCain's not having a "good time"; Obama has backed McCain into a corner that he can't get out of. Smiling, rude and inappropriate laughter, and constantly saying "Senator Obama doesn't understand! Senator Obama doesn't understand!" isn't the way to win a debate or an election, John. Clearly articulating valid views on the issues, like Obama's doing, is.
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USARonin
Obama says the biggest threat to the US are "suitcase nuclear bombs", not missiles coming over the icecaps. Chemical plants, transit, etc must be "hardened". Again, get out of Iraq, move everything into Afghanistan. "Osama bin Laden is still out there." Obama says he will get "the world" to respect us.
McCain: Obama "still doesn't get it".
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Sarge
Any person with any common sense whatsoever who watched this debate will vote for McCain.
The most hilarious part was when Obama called McCain "Jim."
USAFdude: "It's so encouraging watching Obama wipe the floor with McCain like this!..."
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You must have watched a different debate than the one I watched.
"... Everyone in my unit is absolutely cheering!"
What unit would that be, comrade?
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Alinsky4prez
My general impressions?
What made Obama so hawkish?
I wanted more talk about Change and Hope.
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Sarge
McCain: "Senator Obama still doesn't get it."
He ain't lyin'.
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USARonin
McCain: 1
Obama: Zero
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Alinsky4prez
This is what I mean. Why has Obama become soooooo hawkish? Even Air Force dudes are cheering...
{sigh}
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USARonin
Alinsky, Obama has the most liberal voting record in the US senate.
Americans don't usually vote for someone so far left (or right for that matter).
To win, Obama has to pretend he has the same values as most of the American public which is more near the center politically.
Can he pull it off?
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Alinsky4prez
I was relieved that Obama got to mention that his father was from Kenya and that is where he gets his name from. The media hasn7t done a very good job explaining his unusual name and his unconventional background.
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proxy
Oops, somebody forgot his lapel pin.
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USARonin
USAFDude, McCain was polite and referred to Obama as "Senator Obama".
Obama kept patronizin' McCain and callin' him "Jim". McCain's first name is "John".
Heh, heh...
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tclh
McCain clearly understands the connection between Iraq and Afghanistan; Obama thinks that if he finishes OBL in Afghanistan he can "hope" that everything will be fine. The things McCain said prove that he is fully qualified as next US President. Obama needs more training ,perhaps join the army for a year or two.
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RomeoRamenII
When did obama get gray hair? He didn't have any last week.
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USARonin
Obama's father didn't raise him, but rather abandoned his family and went on to to two or three more wifes, eventually dyin' in the streets a drunk.
It seems McCain should've focussed on his grandparents who cared for and raised him. Obama's mother deserted him, too. I didn't hear any mention of her. Maybe it's because she was white.
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USARonin
Correction: "It seems (Obama) should've focussed..."
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USARonin
OBL's in prison right now so I don't see him as an issue.
If we bomb his prison, fine; if we don't, OBL can never come out his prison door and show his face to the daylight anyway.
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proxy
Yes, I saw Obama's lapel pin.
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smithinjapan
sarge: "He ain't lyin'."
He sure as hell is, my friend. In fact, McCain told a number of lies in that debate... errr... since you prefer the euphimistic: he 'stretched the truth'.
Anyway, the debate wasn't a knockout, as they say, for either of those involved. For his part, I'll admit McCain held out better than I thought he would, though he constantly had to get his two cents in when time was up, and it was always defensive and sometimes on the verge of the explosive anger I thought might come out. Obama got some good shots in there, but he too went on the defensive and looked bad on a couple of points.
Still, overall, it was fun to watch snippits here and there, and I look forward to the next debate.
I also look forward to the Palin/Biden debate, if only to watch/hear Palin AGAIN speak like a drooling baffoon in an attempt to defend being near Russia as having foreign experience!
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smithinjapan
I didn't catch the start of the debate, unfortunately... I wish, as I doubt he did, Obama would have started it off with:
"First I'd like to thank my esteemed opponent for showing up today despite promising he would not..."
Would have sent McCain steam-rolling into his famous convulsions of anger, no doubt. Or maybe McCain just would have gone completely off topic, like his meditation tapes probably suggest he do, and talked about the hospitalization of Kennedy or something.
0
TheNewFed
Fox News - Text message poll, shows 82% of viewers think McCain won the debate.
looks like another disaster for the Obama camp. The guy lost the debate easily, well done McCain.
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skipthesong
“You don’t say that out loud,” retorted McCain. “If you have to do things, you do things.”" No John, you do say those things out loud.
Moderator Jim Lehrer’s opening question concerned the economic crisis. While neither man committed to supporting bailout legislation taking shape in Congress, they readily agreed lawmakers must take action to prevent millions of Americans from losing their jobs and their homes."
see I told you so! Neither one can nor will do a damn thing about it.
0
USARonin
No, you don't say that out loud. Unless you're a liberal or Geraldo Rivera.
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adaydream
FOXNews also admitted their polls also showed that of those people that didn't watch the debate chose McCain by 95%. They also approved the way that george bush has handled the nation these last 8 years. < :-)
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USAFdude
NewFed - Fox News?! Bwahahahahahahahaha! Who gives a sh*t about Faux News? The vast majority of polls clearly show Obama as the rightful winner.
McCain tanked, but then we all expected that, if we're honest with ourselves. I'll sleep easier tonight knowing that President Obama is on the way!
0
yabits
That's about the size of it. Foreign affairs is supposed to be McCain's strong suit, his home turf. Tonight he looked like a boxer who was just holding on to his opponent. (I'd like to know a bit more about McCain's reluctance to meet with the leaders of Spain.)
McCain needed to knock out Obama and it was clear he did not do that. All he did was get in a few jabs here and there before wandering back into his corner to utter maudlin, barely-coherent soliloquies.
I thought the bracelet stories revealed the difference between the candidates. McCain's story demonstrated the unrelenting selfishness of the war-obsessed: Keep fighting the war no matter how much more death and destruction occurs just so that MY son would not have died in vain. Obama's story demonstrated the polar opposite of selflessness: Don't let any other mother experience what this mother went through in losing her son.
For the intellectually-challenged who think that Obama was calling McCain "Jim," he was actually addressing the moderator of the debate, JIM Lehrer.
Lastly, prior to this debate, one poster in particular was obsessed with Obama's speech pattern and his habit of saying "uh" when searching for the right word in less formal settings. Not seeing any mention of this from that poster post-debate confirms what I observed that Obama, for the most part, spoke articulately and fluidly tonight.
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yabits
One of the guests on Bill Maher's live HBO show after the debate was a writer for the conservative magazine, The National Review. I was surprised to learn that there is a movement among the conservatives to urge Palin to drop off the ticket for personal reasons, although the writer herself was not in favor of that. Palin really is that bad.
0
yabits
As with Sarah Palin's attempt to ban certain books from the Wasilla Public Library, the attempt by the narrow-minded to "get rid" of Bill Maher also failed miserably. He has a very successful and extremely entertaining series of live shows on HBO.
One of the funniest lines regarding tonight's debates came from guest, Chris Rock, when he said that, in a boxing match, his Dad used to tell him, "You can't beat white people; you can only knock them out." Maher countered that when he saw Rock on Larry King's show earlier that night, he thought the debate started an hour ahead of schedule.
0
Alinsky4prez
Get in their faces. And keep up the astroturfing. We can still pull it off.
0
USAFdude
Sarge - that would be a unit of proud, patriotic American GI's like me. Not surprised you wouldn't recognize us.
Ronin - We all certainly wish OBL was in prison or dead, but sadly, he's alive and well. Your wishful thinking is revealing though...
Anyway, clearly Obama won this debate. Now, we just wait for Obama to walk proudly into the White House, with the bulk of the US military cheering him on!
0
USARonin
USAFdude, what make my my supposed "wishful thinking... revealing..."?
And, no, Obama didn't clearly win the debate. He couldn't remember the name on the soldier's bracelet he supposedly has, and he confused "John" McCain with "Jim" somebody. You can't make this stuff up.
Obama's plan to answer invasions such as the recent Russia-Georgia one is for the US to speak out "more forcefully" against it.
Yes, that'll make KGB Komrade Putin think twice.
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yabits
A lot of us military vets will be cheering too.
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yabits
He paused for a brief moment, but did recall the soldier's name. Readers should keep in mind that McCain's bringing up the bracelet was staged and rehearsed, while Obama's was obviously done in response to McCain's story. And Obama's was the much better story.
The only times I saw Obama saying "Jim" was to the moderator, Jim Lehrer. That's because his name is Jim. His last name is not "somebody," it's Lehrer. But he'll answer to Jim because that's his name.
0
USARonin
yabits, Marines, army grunts and other combat arms vets?
Not hardly.
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Nippon5
Well its over and here is the way I see it..
Obama didnt directly answer any question, he used Bush as an Excuse for most of the answers he didnt give. He used the same line to many times and didnt answer the questions well,he did get a few snipes in.When asked about what you will change in your campaign promises to help get rid of the debt caused by the bail out he said I will not stop any program I have decided to do but I will delay some. (I felt that was a wrong answer more spending isnt going to help us right now) all in all I give him a (c-) in this debate.
McCain Didnt answer most of the questions directly. He also didnt interupt Obama as Obama did to him, which was nice. He put up arguments that seemed like cotton candy very large but not much weight to them. I was impressed with his ability to get his word in when the Mod kept ending it on Obama when it should ended on McCain (you dont start and end then start second and end like they where doing) I do feel he was weak in the economical solution since I dont believe a goverment shut down is the answer) He was far better at this debate then Obama and I give him a (b) for a grade
Jim Leher the MOd... He wasnt very good in general, he allowed the canidatesto not answer, he didnt allow the right person to finish so each person didnt get equal time. His questions were lame and didnt ask the challenging questions we as Americans want to know. Like if Pakistan keeps shooting at UN and US forces what will we do.. I though his questions were to general and not forceful enough. I give him a (D)
I hope the next debate is more specific and controlled Over all it was a fun debate and showed both canidates at face value.
0
Alinsky4prez
Obama was clever to decline mccain's invite to do ten townhall style debates all across the country. Saul would be proud.
0
moonbeams
My non-biased thoughts as an Obama supporter.
Character: I thought McCain did quite well.
Obama's Achille's heal was his passion. McCain came off as more composed.
Content: McCain came off as an actor. It became quite evident that McCain was trained to say "Obama just doesn't understand.." as many times as possible.
He answered questions just like Palin, not even answering the actual questions, just going off on how the country is screwed up and he is a maverick.
Obama does the same thing, which irritates me.
Here is my summary of the debate:
McCain: Obama just doesn't understand.. in my experience.. Ronald Reagan!
You can play a drinking game to the amount of time he repeated those key words. In other words, McCain was all fluff to me.
Obama: 8 years of McCain policies.. George Bush.
I miss primary Obama. The guy is great when he talks about the positive things he wants to do.
0
yabits
I'm not so sure the distinction isn't branch or type of service as it is the kind of intellectual and moral capacity that would prevent someone from casting a vote for someone like George W. Bush.
0
USARonin
Obama kept deferrin' his answsers to "the past eight years" instead of solidly answering most questions.
I don't recall him sayin' anything about "Hope and Change" and how He was goin' to Deliver us from Evile. Maybe I was in the can. No... I used the emptyin' Guinness bottles.
0
moonbeams
Exactly. When McCain told that story, I was thinking, yes, I can understand how these parents feel. They lost their child, which is utterly horrible, and don't want that loss to be for nothing. It would be cruel to think otherwise. However, the messed up thing is that as long as the war continues, more parents will lose their children.
Then Obama emphasized that point.
0
USARonin
yabits, as McCain said tonight, overall the military wants to finish the job from the bottom up.
Politicians like Obama didn't let the troops do that in Vietnam, or after incidents as depicted in Black Hawk Down.
Many vets don't forget the stab in the back, the betrayals. Bein' left on the battlefield...
0
USARonin
moonbeams, after readin' all o' that, I'm glad you're satisifed you're "unbiased".
0
USAFdude
Yabits, we appreciate your service and your support!
Ronin, what makes your "OBL's in prison" wishful thinking is that you're clearly wrong. What makes your wishful thinking revealing is how easily confused you are.
Hope that clears it up; sorry to have talked over your head the first time.
0
yabits
moonbeams, you are omitting all the times that Obama had to explain why what McCain just said was not true.
People should recall the debate of 2000 when Bush was telling people how his tax cuts would not impact the budget surpluses, and that he'd have a trillion dollars set aside just for contingencies. Gore was telling the American people that Bush was not telling the truth. Heck, even McCain voted against the Bush tax cuts before he flip-flopped and started supporting them.
0
USAFdude
Ronin - you forgot leaving OBL alive and well, missing the opportunity to nail him in Afghanistan, leaving our troops woefully undersupported in Afghanistan, running half-cocked into Iraq which as Obama pointed out inarguably had nothing to do with 9-11 and therefore nothing to do with the war on terror... oops, sorry... that's a Republican who do all that!
Talk about betrayal and backstabbing; the prevention of those things is the primary reason Obama will be our new C-in-C.
We feel bolstered already!
0
USARonin
USAFdude, OBL is in a prison of his own makin'.
At least I can stick my head out the window of my beautiful home without someone puttin' their .50 cal gunsight on it.
I can drive down the road in my Hummer-2 without a Blackhawk with multiple rocket launchers preparin' to launch.
I can speak freely on several kinds of phones I have without fear that some voice-recognition device isn't goin' to send a tomahawk missile through my roof in the next twenty minutes.
What makes you think OBL isn't in prison? If you had to live like him (if he's alive), you'd recognize the bars immediately.
0
yabits
Until the United States of America becomes a military-run country -- which is highly possible in the future -- the "job" is determined by the civilian authorities who are put into place under our Constitution. As military veteran of the Vietnam conflict, I never forgot this, or the oath I took.
The line to me is very clear, and what is also very clear is how many people overly romanticize the military to the point of blurring that line. It's very dangerous ground, and something I feel that Senator Obama can handle better than Senator McCain can. Tonight's debates served to reinforce my views on that.
0
USAFdude
Ronin - thank you for asking one of my favorite questions!
You see, you Iraq-heads wouldn't rest until Saddam was captured for all the world to see and then strung up. Fine, I say; the man was a pig. But he wasn't the mastermind behind 9-11.
Now using your "logic" (what makes you think OBL isn't in prison?), you should have just assumed Saddam died early on in the Iraq invasion, just as you assume OBL is in prison. Had you done that, Saddam would still be alive. You just wouldn't rest until you saw Saddam swinging from the gallows.
So why is it you assume OBL is in prison? Are you really so naive as to think OBL is somehow disempowered? Well, that may be good enough for you, but for me, I won't rest until OBL's ass is swinging from the tallest tree in Afghanistan. It's called completing the mission.
As for the rest of your statement, you're welcome. But just think how much safer you'd be with OBL out of the picture. Just take a moment to think... it won't hurt, I promise.
0
adaydream
I can't wait for the Biden/Palin debate. More popcorn and beer.
I'm going to be laughing as she tells us again about her foreign experience with Russia.
This was actually a better debate than I expected. Barack took center stage. McCain did p;retty good, but he's so slow with his answers and archacic. He's got to get away from staying the course in Iraq.
Obama scored a Knockout. < :-)
0
yabits
There goes the HBO money.
0
USARonin
yabits, I get like 12 Showtime channels and IFC and FLIX for about 15 bucks/month.
HBO wants at least that for one channel.
No thanks. They can get my fifteen bucks from you.
0
yabits
USAFdude:
One thing in tonight's debates that barely was touched upon -- and it was Obama who did it -- was the success that the Chinese are having throughout the world, especially in acquiring the vital resources of many countries in Africa, the Middle East and South America, through the use of soft power. The Chinese military will certainly grow stronger, but they'll be making most of their gains by playing the game a lot smarter than the US has been playing it over the past few decades.
0
smithinjapan
USARonin: "USAFdude, it was Democrat Clinton who had the opportunity to easily take out bin Laden but freely chose not to."
Ummm... just a sec here... searching my other computer... who was president when OBL and Co. attacked the US on 9/11.... oh! Wait!! It wasn't Clinton at all!!
In case you missed the sarcasm in my post, GWB was president when 9/11 occurred, and it was HIS decision to rush into multiple (and in Iraq, illegal) wars to chase those, and primarily OBL, in response. It was also on his dime, in his war, that he let Obama Bin Laden escape. Stop trying to fob off the blame for this on Clinton... it had nothing to do with him; you may as well say Rummy had the chance to kill OBL instead of training him in Guerilla tactics way back when they wanted the Russians out of Afghanistan!
Once again to the matter slightly more at hand, though, I agree with YangYong. If you read one of the latest articles about Bush's comments during a closed-door meeting (people quoting bush on anonymity), it's simply hilarious! Bush saying, "look... let's just please go out of these doors and tell every one that everything's gonna be okay, okay?" and admitting he doesn't know what the hell something means, etc. What an utter irresponsible baby you guys elected into office!
Moderator: Please do not be impolite to other posters.
0
smithinjapan
Nippon5: "Smith in Japan AQ declared war on the US and the west in 1996 when Clinton was on watch. So in fact your wrong..."
Hey, bud... I said 9/11 took part on Bush's watch, and that it was HE who started the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.... and you're saying I'm WRONG??? Sheesh... somebody's already taken a moment to actually up and forget history!
Mods: "Moderator: Please do not be impolite to other posters."
Sorry, guys... I was just taking a moment to deflate the air from a rather hot-headed poster who was taking blatent swings at nationality, gender, etc.
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USARonin
Smith, how do get out of that that I said YangYong is a homosexual. I don't know one way or the other. What do you know? I addressed YangYong 'cause he said some things that most Americans would find offensive. So what. He's free to speak his mind, and I'm free to address his mind. -Just like you're attempting to do with me now.
That homosexual thingie never entered my mind, but it entered yours.
Smith, why do you assume askin' someone there gender is mysogynist? I'd say the problem isn't mine. Also, I was very polite, not demeaning at all. Why is being a woman something offensive to you? Nope, it's not me that has the problem.
And Smith, you're new here so you may not know I don't complain to the moderators. That's a weak character that does that. I never make requests that anyone be censored or banned. That's you.
And Smith, I don't much care for folks who come to my country just to make a buck and then run their mouths about what's wrong with my nation. I don't care where that individual is from, so playin' the race card with me don't work.
You should learn how US immigration works, however. Tell the right lies and pay off the right people in the country of origin, and just about anyone can get in. -Sometimes even greedy Americaphobes who don't even respect the lands they came from.
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YangYong
Unless Mr Obama becomes PRESIDENT how is the US gonna stop the horror of its inevitable future, a future it has sold down the toilet by allowing greed --beyond any creed's imagination-- to take place of everything else; so self-serving had you become that you forgot to have a sense of history, a sense of humility, a sense of anything but yourselves; you couldn't --and then didn't want to-- see what you'd unleashed --at first upon us-- and now upon your own heads. I am glad the sewage is now backing up into your own homes; get a taste of what you've sown. Enjoy the results of lettin' that idiot rule you for eight years. If you had any idea of what you've done you'd apologize to the whole of humanity and ask their forgiveness and put Mr Obama in the Oval Office TONIGHT... but the gale of your arrogance wouldn't even permit us to turn into its ferocity, never mind whistle. Obama for PRESIDENT.
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Statistician
So it is clear that you can't rely on McCain to do what he says he is going to do.
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USARonin
Smith, I keep tryin' to address your requests but by the time I get to the main link where your whole post would be, you've withdrawn it.
How do you withdraw your own posts after reconsiderin' the wisdom of them? I never need to, but I find it interesting you have the know-how.
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USARonin
YangYong, feelin' the way you do, I think your votin' for Obama-Biden ticket will help assuage your "bathroom problem" as you put it in several quaint ways.
Yup, that the ticket.
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Nippon5
USARonin: "USAFdude, it was Democrat Clinton who had the opportunity to easily take out bin Laden but freely chose not to."
Ummm... just a sec here... searching my other computer... who was president when OBL and Co. attacked the US on 9/11.... oh! Wait!! It wasn't Clinton at all!!
See you are responding to a comment that Clinton had the chance and you side skirted it and came up with a BUSH is all evil answer that was BS and I called you on it.. my response was if Clinton did his job then maybe BUSH wouldnt have been the president that had 9-11 happen... If you follow history you wouldnt make such ignorant statements as BUSH was president then....when the problem was severe back in Clintons time and since I served during that time I can tell you we knew who OBL was and our CinC didnt take him serious which then allowed OBL to live and commit the attack on 9-11...
Here is a link to AQ on Wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda
it will explain more then I am allowed to, but you will just use your generic answer it was Bush and blah blah blah....
We all know Bush is an IDiot that doesnt make Clinton not responsible for his part in OBL... Just as when which ever idiot takes over it doesnt release BUSH of responsibility for those things that started on his watch..
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USARonin
Statistician, such as?
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sailwind
Rather suprised myself.
I thought when it came to any questions about the economy McCain would come off pretty bad. Instead he came off quite well in showing by fact and past deed that he would get Government spending under control. as a fiscal conservative type I was pretty impressed. He gave specifics and If elected I think he will enforce a Government spending freeze until Congress gets its act together. Obama was pretty vague and just mouthed the usual we'll take a look at the programs line. Which didn't give me any warm and fuzzy feeling that he will be another tax and spend big Government Nanny type.
On the Foreign policy front with the exception of his complete denial that the surge worked and is the right policy to continue to pursue in Iraq and to put in place the same policy in Afghanistan, which I just don't get why he just doesn't say he was right in opposing the war but was wrong on the surge after all. Which as least to me would be perfectly understandable. After the mess Bush made in his running of the war who wouldn't have been leery of supporting it. Which the exception of the Surge I was pretty impressed with Obama. As far as his grasp of international relations and his much more diplomatic approach then McCain. McCain came off to me as more of it's my way or the highway type of foreign policy a tad bit to inflexible for my tastes so in the area I thought he'd do weaker in Obama did well.
I give credit were credit is do. Overall it was a draw in my opinion but for Obama it'll work out better for him. He re-assured many independents and Moderates he's up to speed on Foreign policy and that will work in his favor.
I also give a McCain credit also, I think at least to the right of center moderates and independents such as myself that he's a better choice to impose some real fiscal sanity on Congress and the days of pork barrel spending will finally be over if he gets the nod. I'm still leaning McCain but that can change if Obama can get rid of my suspicion that if elected he won't continue to spend money like a drunken sailwind. He didn't do that tonight, while McCain gave specifics. The man will never caryy Washington State after he killed that sweetheart Boeing contract thats for sure.
Just my opinion on this so far.
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YangYong
When a person feels -- I won't use the verb 'think'-- that their 'nation' is beyond reproach that's exactly how nations get into the position that America finds itself now. Mr Obama is gonna make sure that changes.
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sailwind
Sorry meant to put that NOT in there.
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bluespaceoddity
Such as ...
Many veterans think McCain blew it on the MIA/POW issue during Vietnam normalization. Many veterans criticize McCain for his poor voting record and lack of action related to veterans healthcare etc. Obama should have stood up for those vets by countering McCain's comments more forcefully. Obama should have elaborated in detail about the bill's he himself has introduced and/or voted for that improve the lives of active duty and reired troops. Obama has been more active in that field and has a better voting record than McCain but doesn't get the credit for it. Even though Obama disgreed with the Iraq war and the way it was fought he did support bills that made funds available for armor, longer rests between deployments and care for returning troops etc. It's hard to tackle McCain on it since McCain is a veteran but as Biden said recently. "Being a veteran isn’t the same as being there for veterans." McCain has the reputation that he once again emotionally tried to reinforce during the debate but it is not supported by his record as a Senator. He tried to make the same claims during the debate that were previously proven inaccurate when he launched an ad with similar contend. http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/thetruthontroopsupport.html
For tabling proposed measures, for voting against or abstaining from voting McCain gets lower grades than Obama when reviewing the way the candidates vote and the way the vet orgs would like them to vote on legislation related to veterans issues. Disabled American Veterans: McCain 20%, Obama 80% voting record. Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America: McCain a D, Obama a B plus rating.
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USARonin
bluespaceoddity, it was Clinton, a liberal Democrat, who signed away the formerly "guaranteed" healthcare for retired veterans, their spouses, and their minor children. And Obama has the most left voting record in the US Senate.
What makes you think the majority of veterans would trust a Democrat to look out for them now? One that wouldn't even serve?
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sailwind
bluespaceoddity,
I also found this from your linked site. You might be interested.
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/afl-ciofalselyattacks_mccain.html
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Nippon5
In his convention acceptance speech, Obama twisted McCain’s words about Afghanistan, saying, “When John McCain said we could just 'muddle through' in Afghanistan, I argued for more resources.” Actually, McCain said in 2003 we “may” muddle through, and he had recently called for more troops there himself.
It's misleading to imply that McCain's support for the tax code in question is to blame for companies sending jobs overseas, as we've said before. The Obama-Biden campaign refers to a dynamic of U.S. tax code that allows companies to defer paying corporate income taxes on money they earn overseas and leave overseas. But the relationship to lost jobs is tenuous.
Seems they both used the same BS that isnt true in the debates...
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bluespaceoddity
Because Obama's own record shows that he has drafted, co-sponsored and voted for legislation that aids veterans and active duty troops. His words are supported by his actions as a Senator.
The factcheck link above shows it. Compare the voting records here by doing a name search and you'll see that it is accurate.
http://www.votesmart.org
Obama's and McCain's pages at that site but direct links may not work: http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=9490
http://www.votesmart.org/bio.php?can_id=53270
Biden's quote above is also accurate "Being a veteran isn’t the same as being there for veterans."
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USARonin
Whoever wins, they'd better address this mess in Iraq.
American soldiers in Iraq have begun to riot and demand they be sent home now:
http://www.snopes.com/photos/military/reenlist.asp
What a development. I'm sure JT will have something soon on this breaking news story.
Obama, they need you now.
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USARonin
bluespaceoddity, seein' as how Biden has been a political hack for a couple of decades and never put his life on the line for any of his fellow countrymen, that's a pretty galling thing for him to say about McCain.
What stones he has now.
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Alinsky4prez
"Being a veteran isn’t the same as being there for veterans."
Eerie how much wiser the hair plugs make Joe "Sock Em" Biden seem, isnt it.
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taniwha
And did they debate the plan to use US$700 billion of American taxpayers' money both Obama and McCain have supported?
Did they?
Isn't it interesting that the public gets no say at all in this decision?
Isn't it convenient that BOTH these candidates desire to see the bailout go ahead before the presidential election? Perhaps so that it plays no part in the voter's decision on which candidate to support? Not that it would matter a great deal in the end, since both Obama and McCain are fully behind the decision to reimburse Wall Street for its losses, even while the Senate has refused to pass into a law more funding for programs such as the extended unemployment benefits, tax credits for small businesses, food stamps, Medicaid programs and infrastructure projects.
There's money for the ruling class when times get hard but not for the working class - which is a very large proportion of the American population and growing in size daily.
I guess both candidates just don't want their audience out their in TV land to catch on to the real program at issue here.
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Sarge
Tani - You don't understand. The public doesn't get to decide whether the government spends $700 billion of their money for whatever, the public gets to choose who presides over this spending. Actually it's the Democrat-controlled Congress who will spend the money.
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bluespaceoddity
Is Biden's comment inaccurate?
Biden was respectful in the way he phrased his criticism and lauded McCain's service in uniform, he called McCain a hero. Service in uniform doesn't make a person immune to scrutiny of their record after they take that uniform off, though. That is what this is about. Comparing the claims and promises made by McCain with the record that reveals if he followed through on those promises. Comparing candidates and deciding which one best supports the issues you value the most.
The people who did serve in uniform rate their political leaders. As Biden also said "... don’t take it from me. Ask Disabled American Veterans, which represents millions of vets. They keep track of these things… John voted with DAV 20 percent of the time. Barack Obama – 80 percent of the time." and "Or ask the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America. They keep track, too. They give letter grades, and they gave John McCain a “D”. Barack got at B plus."
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USARonin
bluespaceoddity, I've never noticed anything negative on McCain in the DAV magazines.
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bluespaceoddity
Are the voting records inaccurate and are those grades not real?
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Alinsky4prez
Think bigger! Isn't it convenient that the whole house of cards came down 7 weeks before the election?
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USARonin
bluespaceoddity, are they real? -Not my job to back up your claims. That's yours.
However, since you mentioned the DAV, and I am affiliated with them, I went to their webpage and checked out their latest "Annual Legislative Report". Nowhere in there are the names McCain or Obama even mentioned.
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bluespaceoddity
http://capwiz.com/dav/scorecard.xc
They issue a score card but the link is tricky to access. I suspect it is traffic heavy because of the elections and their server may get overwhelmed from time to time.
http://www.dav.org/voters/key_votes.html
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USARonin
bluespaceoddity, thanks.
I went to your first link and that lists only Congressional votes, not the US Senate, so, of course, McCain's and Obama's names were not to be found.
I went to your second link but that's the one that referenced the first.
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sailwind
USA / bluespace
Thought I'd help out here.
The veteran in this exchange was also wrong in saying McCain doesn't have a perfect voting record with the VFW (since such a record doesn't even exist). However, he is correct in that McCain doesn’t have a perfect score with DAV (Disabled American Veterans), a group of 1.3 million disabled veterans that supports more funding for veterans health care. McCain has a 20 percent record of voting the way DAV would like him to in 2006. The group is nonpartisan, but its 100 percent rankings disproportionately go to Democrats: 207 Democrats in Congress and only 13 Republicans received scores of 100 percent in 2006. Senators were evaluated on five votes for amendments that would have increased funding for veterans’ health care.
http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/doesmccainhaveaperfectvotingrecord.html
bluespace is correct but in my opinion only on a technicality. The votes they rank on is for admendments to a bill that has already been agreed upon as far as spending. In other words already they are deal changers that have to approved after the original deal had been struck. McCain as I should in my first link never voted spending more money for veterans he opposed the Democratic admendments that were trying to be added the original deal. It's just politics. Adding admendments that would have busted the original budget agreed to in the original bill and would in fact endanger the entire bill from getting a veto makes good political hay but doesn't get the entire legislation passed.
Always remember the context as to why votes are cast the way they are. Of course the DAV is always going to want more money and the way they rank congress voting records will reflect that, common sense. McCain very well voted for say 1.2 billion in veterans benifits in the original bill. Admendment comes along before final passage to spend say 1.9 billion. He votes down the admendment. Does that mean he voted agaisn't funding more money for veterans? Of course not, it means he voted agaisn't spending a higher percentage than he had originally agreed to.
Hafta look at the whole picture on this.
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USARonin
sailwind, thank you.
I figured it could've been like that.
Democrats are publicly hammerin' Republicans for votin' against the off-shore drilling proposal which they say the Repubicans, but they don't mention that they themselves also included a lot of key restrictions and perhaps impossible demands for the future be included with the "drilling bill". All the voter gets is a sound byte that says, "Republicans voted against off-shore drilling..."
I'm not a one-issue voter, and I'm sure you're correct that the DAV didn't get everything they want. Nor should they.
What you're saying, as you know, is taught to us in a 5th Grade Civics class. I just couldn't spend the time researchin' every "veterans" bill that was proposed to see what else was attached/hidden with it.
After all, I gots peoples to help here at the JT Olympics.
Thank you again.
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Sarge
"being there for veterans"
Or, being in charge of spending taxpayers' money.
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Sarge
If the Democrats don't win this election, with the economy struggling and this huge financial mess which has been unfairly blamed on the current Republican administration, and 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, they never will. How can McCain be even close in the polls?
Is Obama that bad?
Yeah, he is!
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Blue_Tiger
here's my take: McCain looked poised, cool under pressure, and in control. Obama looked defensive, testy, irritated, frustrated and on a few occasions appeared to lose his composure. Obama agreed with McCain too often, and on several points, had no answer for McCain. Round one to John McCain.
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sailwind
USA
Thanks, happy to help. I like posters like bluespace. They bring real game to the discussion without the partisan shrieking, and makes for a much better discussion. So to bluespace, thanks, good points you made you also made me realize that Obama has a pretty darn good record also when it comes to trying to take care of our vets.
As I said earlier I'm leaning McCain but I will be perfectly honest in my opinion. After watching Obama tonight if he gets the nod, I no longer have any doubt that he isn't up for the job and is Presidential material. He did good. My difference with him is mainly on my personal political viewpoint. I think the country right now needs the next President to hold the line and get Government back under fiscal control and Obama just hasn't given me enough confidence that he's that type of person that will do that. Though I do take solace that if Obama does win and tries to slam Nanny State Government in his first two years, he'll end up like Clinton did in his first Mid-terms with a Republican Majority back in Congress to keep him in check. As for me and my overall politics it's sorta of a win win as to whoever gets the nod.
As for the the debate it confirmed for me, that this is the first election in a long time that whoever gets the nod, I can live with, I think either one is going to be a good President, my honest thoughts so far.
Good discussion so faron the last posts hope it stays that way and the shrieking is kept down to a low roar. I'm interested if other people had the same impression as I did on both their performances tonight.
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taniwha
Sarge,
I am kind've familiar with the set up.
President or Primeminister the general idea is its a democracy. That means the elected leader has with a mandate to govern for the good of the people and not for the good of an unelected few.
Democracy requires a full discussion and debate in the course of an election campaign when it comes down to what to do with the federal treasury. What is happening is that the two presidential candidates have conspired together not to raise the topic in a public debate. That much is clear and that is the point I am making here. The 'rescue plan' as it has been presented to the public amounts to raiding the federal treasury and to mortgage future generations to guarantee the riches of the financial elite.
Don't you think that is a topic for these potential presidents to debate since at least one of the topics has been the economy?
Huh?
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ThuleSociety
Sarge- Great post buddy!
Obama did not have any concrete policies. His campaign is doomed to failure. People have seen him debating, and must be really disapointed at his poor showing. I couldn't believe Obama couldn't even counter any of McCains attacks on him.
McCain showed his strength and integrity. I and other right minded patriots shall vote for McCain, Palin.
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Sarge
Blue Tiger: "Round One to John McCain"
That's not what the See BS poll says. The See BS poll says Obama won the debate. Incredible, isn't it? They must not have asked many Republican or conservative people for their opinion.
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BarryHObarmy
Obama won , like, the dabate man. That is so cool, he is awesome!!
All the rich dudes are going to have to pay more money in taxes, good, i hate rich dudes, they are greedy.
Obama is gonna help me, i'm gonna move to a newer trailer and get a flat screen tv with the extra money when Obama wins.
The old guy couldn't reply any good to Obama. Oabam , is ,like, kinda, so clever, and knew how to debate much better than McCain.
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Sarge
Barry - Good one.
JoeBigs: "Every time ( McCain ) was asked a question on the economy of the future of our nation he would try and deflect the question with a question."
Sure, Joe, just make stuff up and post it! Sheesh!
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Blue_Tiger
Sarge - See BS is in the tank for Obama, as is NBC, ABC, MSNBC, CNN, and the majority of US MSM. I'm not surprised that See BS called it for Obama. However, the truth is, Obama lost that debate. Instead of the "poised" rock star form the DEM Convnetion, I saw a testy, frustrated, defensive young upstart getting his hat handed to him by an experienced debater in John McCain. 'Twill be interestign to see whow round 2 gopes, and how Palin does against Biden on Thursday...
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zurcronium
the great unwashed winger community love their circle beater ways. One posts to the other who in many instances is the same poor lonely loser.
The debate, according to most, was a toss up. Which means Obama won as it was on mccains home ground, foreign relations.
Its amazing that this black guy that nobody heard of two years ago is going to upset mccain for the election, who has been around as long as dirt. Obama has toppled the whole republican machine, which kept bush in office (along with election fraud). Does not hurt either than maccain is such a hothead and has made mistake after mistake in the last month or so. Palin for one, pretending to fix the finance meltdown but instead making it worse, going yellow all of sudden and canceling the debate. Old boy mccain cant lie as well as bush can either. You can tell when mccain is lying cause he knows it, bush, empty loser that he is, can lie and lie without shame as he has none.
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Badsey
-the war must end -big banks are failing (Washington Mutual, Wachovia, etc +more small ones to come) -our country needs work (infrastructure, health care, fuel prices)
Both of these parties have been a dismal failure -but now they have been enlightend to "fix the system"
Palin is the only one that is semi-clean. But will the bridge to nowhere really work? Does it always need to be the lesser of 2 evils?
Many of these SenActors and Congressmen need to be fired and we need to start with a clean slate.
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Sarge
Barry - Good one.
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kjunluc2
****I guess I'm intellectually challenged. I missed the debates. I was too busy watching reruns of Law and Order. I figure that Palin will become president sometime during the next four years. At least that will be the lesser of two evils. Our country has been underway out of command since Reagen hit the whitehouse.
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zurcronium
sarge,
no reply to joe biggs above???? Catnip got your tongue?
No, its the same old story, even older than mccain. repubs when confronted with facts change the subject and post goofy phony tripe like barry above. And sarge does reply to that. Cant beat that!
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Sarge
zurcronium - Why should I bother replying to someone who contradicts himself immediately? Witness:
"Lehrer: Senator McCain?
McCain: Well, again, I don't want to go back and forth... Senator Obama suspended those requests for pork-barrel projects after he was running for president...
Doesn't sound like McCain was trying to "deflect the question with another question" to me.
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Sarge
zurcronium - I'm assuming you actually watched the debate. How could you watch that and still think Obama would be the better choice of these two men for this job? I don't get it...
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sailwind
Joe
Have a nice day Sir.
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/03/08/america/McCain-Air-Force-Tankers.php
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Alinsky4prez
I don't know about the other progressives here but frankly I wish mccain had stayed in DC and Barack could have debated a cardboard cut-out of gw bush.
0
adaydream
I thought John McCain did better than I expected. I know he's very well versed on foreign matters and he has an aggressive agenda. I just don't agree with his direction.
Barack Obama did a damn good job last night. He's more versed on foreign matters than he's given credit for and his domestic direction is more in my liking. I wish Obama was more aggressive on new energies than I think he is.
I'm hoping that the mother of neccessity, more and cheaper fuel, will drive research and development will come up with new technology and fuel sources. < :-)
0
mushroomcloud
I found it interesting that the country that worships the US the most, Japan, was not rewarded with a mention by either candidate, since this debate was all about foreign policy.
Yet both candidates mentioned China. Obama did in regards to China's first spacewalk, and McCain did by pointing out how the US owes the Chinese $500 billion.
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zurcronium
polls are coming in and its official, mccain is now the grumpy old man of politics.
How he feels he can lecture obama on foreign policy when for the last 8 years he has supported bush 90 percent on failure in korea, iraq, afganistan, latin american, with US allies in europe, iran, palestine, georgia, and on and on. Amazing.
Just shows how deluded the right wingers have become since they believe their own lies.
0
Sarge
zurcronium - Your last post just shows how deluded the left wingers have become since they believe their own lies.
0
taniwha
And do you know what is even more amazing?
How the Republican led 'war on terror' was supported by the Democrats from the very beginning. Some might complain that the Democrats might have done it better but no one can argue in good faith that the Democrats were unaware of what was being debated in Congress.
The truth is that the Democrats have not been totally complicit throughout.
The financial meltdown itself although it was inevitable came to a head because of legislation inacted during a Democrat administration.
This is history. No good trying to change it. Democrats should be burying their heads in shame rather than trumpeting their stupidity by attempting to paint the blame for the disaster that US politics has brought upon America and the world.
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taniwha
Text missing from above. The last paragraph should read.
'This is history. No good trying to change it. Democrats should be burying their heads in shame rather than trumpeting their stupidity by attempting to paint the blame for the disaster that US politics has brought upon America and the world solely on the Republicans.'
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Nessie
So what are you saying?
0
Nippon5
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/factcheckingdebateno_1.html
Use it!!!!!
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Sarge
Nippon5 - I just used it:
Kissinger: Senator McCain is right. I would not recommend the next President of the United States engage in talks with Iran at the Presidential level. My views on this issue are entirely compatible with the views of my friend Senator John McCain.
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zurcronium
taniwa,
the repubs controlled all parts of the US government post 9-11. You can sing your same old trite song if you wish but please try to get your facts correct. The fact is Gore would not have invaded Iraq if in the WH. Period. Please try to get over your cracked world view.
Moderator: What Gore might have done is not relevant to this discussion. Please stay on topic.
0
bluespaceoddity
McCain has just released an other ad that distorts Obama's record on funding the troops while neglecting to inform people of his own record on the bill referenced in the ad. I had a look at the entry you mentioned at factcheck.org and agree that McCain isn't the only one stretching the record in this election. That site is filled with critical analysis of the distortions from both campaigns. I wish they would both stop distorting each others record and let people vote on the real merit of their own positions and actions.
I focused on the veterans issue since it is so central to the image McCain projects of himself. It seems more logical to assume that Obama doesn't have a record on this issue. The truth is that he has consistently voted for funding and introduced measures that benefit troops and veterans. I would argue that lack of exposure of his actions and voting history and not necessarily inexperience is the biggest problem he still faces. In that respect Obama has more to gain from the debates than McCain IMO.
I could come back and push the point a bit more but if you had a good look at Obama's record and have come to the conclusion that he at least has a Senate history that shows support for the troops and veterans that is as much as I could have hoped for with my recent comments here, I suppose.
Maybe an issue you can return to and reevaluate for yourself if doubt about McCain/Palin creeps in over the next couple of weeks. Maybe if you find yourself more on the fence, an evaluation of both their records on veterans affairs could tip you over. hehe
I don't know how you judge the reliability of votesmart or factcheck, I can appreciate that you want to go directly to the source but I don't have an other direct link or method to access the DAV scorecard.
Here is a link to the other org's evaluation of voting records Biden mentioned http://www.iava.org/full-ratings-list
Anyway thanks for the exchange of ideas. I am admittedly biased and on some issues further to the left than Obama but I'm glad my partisanship doesn't come across as shrieking.
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Nippon5
Obama hasnt done anything against the Vets that I know of, he did vote no to a bill that was going to have a no withdraw date, and he didnt like it. As a whole the goverment failed the troops, just as I feel Clinton did while I served. To not provide proper funding is horrid... I want to believe one of the elected two would make a change but in my life time I havent seen true change just empty promises.....
I cant wait for the VP debate it will be a blast..... I have a case chilling for it and have cleared my schedule, I expect some big mistakes from the younger one, and some unique comments from both sides, maybe she will shock us and wow us with words.....
0
taniwha
Zurcronium
Let's get history right here. The leading Democrats all lined up behind 'the Bush' Iraq war. I could run through the lot but who cares for all the names. We know them already; there's senator's Lieberman, Gephardt, Kerry (who let's not forget ran for president), Edward, Graham, both Clintons, Biden, Kennedy...
There were a few against, but they were very very few and only Dean from memory made anything close to a public stand against the overwhelming Democrat support for the warmongers lust for Iraqi blood and oil. Throughout the past decade the Democrats have impotently pleaded with the administration and outright collaborated with it, particularly over the war in Iraq, and military spending. But also in their refusal to have a confrontation with the Republican Party over the stacking of the Bush judicial nominations in favour of the extreme right wing and Christian fundamentalist forces that have been so influential in the Republican Party.
The Democratic Party have shown themselves to be the most spineless of oppositions and have also displayed an alarming lack of principle - and that's throughout the entire two terms of the Bush administration. They pose as representing their supporters but the majority of their supporters have shown through polls to be hostile to the Iraq war.
And from the Iraqi war to the Economy when we look at the involvement of the Democrats in political disasters they show themselves at least to be consistent. How can we all forget how in the early hours of October 22, 1999, an agreement made between the Clinton administration and the congressonal Republicans was settled that would allow the most sweeping banking deregulation in American history!
Yep, on president Bill Clinton's watch the stage was set for the passage of a bill that would enable virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies dominating the financial system to be lifted.
The rest, as they say, is history. McCain will be allowed to become president, the Democrats will see to that, and those that don't fall in line will be encouraged to. Or have you forgotten what happened the last two presidential elections?
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Wottock_Hunt
Sarge - "My friend senatorMcCain"?
Oh go on, do tell. What, you were forged from the same caste in the Hanoi Hilton? Papillon syndrome? Bumchums?
Come on - tell us why you chose those words.
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Sarge
Wottock - I was quoting Henry Kissinger.
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flyingfish
i thought mccain did alright but its academic because sarah palin is sinking him..her interview with couric beggars belief.. of course the elephant in the room is that there is no way she can be the mother of trig and when that breaks ,all hell will break loose.. maybe they can keep it under wraps til the election though..
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Wottock_Hunt
Sarge - I see...good to know you're consistent about the calibre of man you bow down to.
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memyselfI
Flip Flop Flip Flop !!! McCain is a Flip Flopper !!!! Is he a loyal Bush Supporter or not ? McCain will be the second worst president we ever had. Bush is numero uno !!!!
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TheNewFed
Sarge- great posts buddy, a true patriot!
memyself- An unpatriotic dig at McCain, a dig without any evidence i may add.
McCain destroyed Obama in the debate. Obama is heading for a Mondale style defeat. Way to go McCain!
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USARonin
memyself, when you get older you can participate in the democratic process and vote for your candidate of choice.
That's only another three years.
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SezWho2
USARonin,
Didn't mean to neglect you. Computer problems here.
Your question about "lip-service" was already asked and answered. McCain called for a meeting in which he said nothing. Obama responded to an invitation to join the meeting.
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ANOTSUSAGAMI
Taniwha-Democrats are evil because they didn't stand up to Evil Bush. Republicans are great because they sided with Evil Bush... What are you saying? You state that the Dems sided with Bush on the war and other issues and therefore suck, then in the same breath praise the Repubs for what, consistency? Or are you being cynical when you say McCain will win? BTW, when they agreed with him on the war they were all but forced to lest they be branded weak, unfit to lead, unpatriotic, among other things. Could YOU possibly have opposed the war knowing that the opposition would use the hysteria of the attacks to brand you a traitor in the eyes of your constituency? Look how that worked out for Dean.
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zurcronium
taniwha,
I dont know where to start, so I wont. All I have to say its not the 2000 election now when Nader repeated the ^They are all the same^ manta and then by not withdrawing from the election let Bush win in Florida, sort of. The fact is that if Gore had moved into the WH the US would look and be far, far different from today. Like night and day different. There would be no Iraq war for example. Oil would be at a reasonalbe price now. And on and on.
So sing your same song, the one you have been singing from 2000 or before. No one cares cause its just not true. Was not in 2000 with Nader and not true now either. Oh, and let Nader know that he looks like fool. No one cares about him anymore, that is for sure.
BTW, my house representative did oppose the invastion from the very start. She is a democrat.
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Nessie
If McCain doesn't become president, is there any chance these certain pronouncements of yours will start to show any humility and tentativeness? Just asking.
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TokyoXtreme
How about "no war" and "no taxes". Eliminate both!
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USARonin
"Elminate taxes"?
You're definitely not a progressive or liberal.
"No war" is simply just not realistic, so you're not conservative.
How do you identify yourself polically?
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