More Israeli names match new Dubai suspects list
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0
grafton
Smoke and mirrors maybe, but this is getting silly, even at their most inept of Mossad operations has never been this stupid, not by a very long way. Even the resident anti Israelis here are going to have trouble believing this could be down to Mossad. By what we are now seeing they might as well have gone in on Israeli passports, that is assuming Israelis are allowed to enter Dubai. This is a frame up of Mossad and a very bad one at that.
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stevecpfc
Simple, Israel is caught bang to rights, even John Prescott reckons Mossad done it without a doubt, and i agree.
0
LostinNagoya
Perhaps Israel wants to be "caught", what better excuse to be attacked and - goaaal! - therefore win the right to counter-attack. With US blessings. Isn't this the same formula used before?
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grafton
stevecpfc
Look I’m sorry and I really don’t want to sound as though I’m being offensive but if you use John Prescott as a guide to what is happening in the world then you really need to rethink your world view, that man is a total idiot, how could you possibly take anything he says seriously?
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stevecpfc
grafton, the ex deputy PM has insider knowledge of these events, so i would trust him to have a good grasp of the facts, also Milliband has accused Israel of being behind this assasination.
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grafton
I do accept that Mossad kill people. It is a part of their job, like that or not. But what is developing in Dubai is seriously silly and Mossad has never been silly.
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sabiwabi
You, and certain other people on this forum, seem to think very highly of this terrorist group (Mossad). They have a history of screwing up. This "silly" Dubai murder is nothing new.
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kinniku
Yes, so you say. Then, in the same breath, you are willing to claim Mossad is responsible for pretty much everything that happens in the world.
Anyway, the fact remains, there is absolutely no specific evidence to point to Mossad as of yet. Could it be them? Sure. It could also be Hamas, as three of there people have been arrested in connection with this case.
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sabiwabi
Perhaps, but why were senior Israeli intelligence officials convinced that Mossad was behind it. And several governments around the world have demanded explanations from Israel.
Anyway, there is infinitely more evidence linking the Mossad to this murder, than there is linking Al-qaeda to 9/11.
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kinniku
Many are convinced they are not as well. Why? Everyone has a right to their opinion. That's why.
That's ok. Several governments around the world thought Iraq had WMD's too. That does not mean they are always correct.
Ridiculous.
0
Badsey
Hopefully these terrorists will be caught soon and the infidel countries will stop harboring these terrorists.
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stevecpfc
Badsey, i agree and you can`t get more infidel than Israel.
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kinniku
Hey, stevecpfc.
It's been about a week. How about mentioning just one of those Israeli politicians you claimed 'admitted' Mossad's involvement? Looking at this latest article merely confirms that there is, as of yet, no specific evidence pointing to Mossad.
0
stevecpfc
kinniku, The Israelis pointing the fingers at Mossad are not te type you would agree with, ie not Jewish.
Stop grasping at straws, many governments are demanding action and answers from Israel. How could Hazmas get the photocopied passport info from Israeli immigration?
0
kinniku
Who's grasping at straws? So far, there is no evidence of Mossad involvement. There are also no Israeli politicians that have admitted Mossad involvement. You claimed, quite a few times, that there were. You were mistaken.
The fact remains, three Hamas members have, so far, been the only ones arrested in connection with this case.
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stevecpfc
kinniku, You also claimed i was mistaken about the British passports being found before that were Canadian, and you were wrong.
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kinniku
You did not answer the question. Okay, in other words, you cannot name one Israeli politician that admitted Mossad was involved? Great. Thank you for admitting your mistake.
I have never said the current case does not involve British passports. You were talking about some case years ago, and I commented that I believe they were Canadian as I have never heard of such a case involving British passports a few years ago.
However, the bottom line, that you seem to be missing, is that there is no specific evidence so far pointing to Mossad. All we have is three Hamas members that have been arrested in connection with this case and are being held in Dubai.
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skipthesong
if it was Mossad, and since Hamas and Israel are at war, and again, regardless of which side you are rooting for, what is wrong with killing your enemy?
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stevecpfc
kiniku, bottom line is you were wrong from the beginning about the Canadian passports in Germany, it was8 British passports. If you can
t be bothered looking up that info, i am not surprised you dont find what Israeli politicians say about the illegal murder.0
kinniku
stevecpfc,
No,the bottom line is we are talking about current events and this current case. Not one Israeli politician has admitted that Mossad is involved. You said they have said so and you have gone as far as to incorrectly say it was broadcast on BBC, CNN and Fox. You were mistaken. They have never said any such thing and there were no broadcasts.
Keep in mind, you did not say they commented on something. You claim, repeatedly, that they admitted something. You were mistaken.
As to a case you say happened years ago, I have no recollection of such a thing. You have neglected to clarify your comments. However, since there is no doubt you were mistaken about something that is currently being talked about in the news, it stands to reason you might be wrong about something that happened years ago as well. Canada did scold Israel about passports a few years back. Britian is complaining now. However, as of yet, there does not seem to be any evidence pointing to Mossad.
0
Odogma
Looking pretty ominous for Israel's enemies among Muslim supremacists and their friends on the political left around the world.This may well turn out to have been a joint Mossad - EU venture, ha ha ha, ho ho ho.
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Badsey
Seems like a Hamas-Mossad joint venture to me. -But I am not a terrorist so I don't understand the terrorist mindset very well.
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sabiwabi
Probably was Mossad. I can't see why else senior Israeli intelligence officials would be convinced that Mossad was behind it. And several governments around the world have demanded explanations from Israel. And its just so typical Mossad.
I would not call this a war. It is a great military power illegally occupying Palestinian land and committing ethnic cleansing.
What is very wrong with this murder is that it took place in a Dubai hotel; Israel is not at war with Dubai. Also, they forged passports of several "friendly" countries, despite Israel's previous promise to some of those countries never to do that again (they did this before, many times).
So Israel is in big trouble.
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kinniku
Well, lots of other Israeli intelligence experts are saying they don't think it si Mossad. Governments demanding explanations doesn't neccessarily means Mossad guilt either. Many of these governments were also convinced of WMD's in Iraq.
It is most certainly a war between the Palestinians and Israelis. They are certainly not at peace. They are certainly not negotiating. It is interesting how at the same time you claim Israel is some 'great military power' and then at the same time try to make it out to be some bumbling country.
Dubai and Israel do not have diplomatic relations. This is Dubai's choice. It was not a Dubai citizen that was targeted (one would assume they were targeted) and killed. It was a Hamas member.
As of yet, we do not have any evidence that Israel did any of the things the press (which contrary to a few people's claims does go after Israel, evidence or not) has been suggesting is Israel's work. If Israel was responsible, they certainly will get a dressing down, not only from the countries now raising complaints, but from their very own citizens whose identities seem to have been stolen.
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sabiwabi
If that is the case, I can understand why.
So its OK?!!!!
They have a massive amount of weapons, thanks to the US and other nations lead by puppets, so they are powerful. But they are not particularly talented or smart, so they screw up a lot.
0
kinniku
I am not saying 'it was okay'. I am merely pointing out that some are suggesting Dubai is a friendly country. Since they do not have diplomatic relations with Israel, it is incorrect to say they are 'friendly'.
I realize you would like to take every and all opportunities, whether they present themselves or you wedge them into a conversation. However, you are certainly the only person I have ever seen to suggest Mossad and/or Israel are not particularly talented or smart. Israel leads the world in medical device patents and is a leading in other technologies that help mankind.
I also find all the feigned shock that an intelligence agency 'may' be involved in an assassination extremely amusing. Yeah, right. Like this kind of thing has never happened before with other countries. Remember the guy thought to be poisoned to death in Britain by Russia?
Bottom line, so far, no specific evidence of Israeli/Mossad involvement.
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sabiwabi
I am just saying that Israel and Dubai are not at war, and Israel should respect Dubai's sovereignty and not send a hit team there to commit murder.
Wow, you certainly think very highly of Israel, don't you. Indeed, there are some intelligent people in Israel, and they get a massive amount of assistance from other countries, and they steal much of it with industrial espionage. But their leaders are thugs who don't look particularly smart, they look more psychotic than anything.
No shock here. This is just one example from a very long list of Mossad/CIA/MI6 criminal activity. I just get quite amused by people desperately clinging to the illusion that Israel can do no harm.
0
kinniku
I have from the beginning expressed my opinion that this action, were it to have been done by Israel, is counter-productive. I have never written that I support it. Since we do not know that it was Israel/Mossad. There is not much more to be said than that.
It is not a matter of thinking highly of Israel. I merely stated the fact that Israel leads the world in medical device patents and is a leading in other technologies that help mankind. I find it interesting you would claim this is because the 'steal technology'. That's kind of like the people that claim Einsteing stole his theories. However, the patents and technologies are in fact Israeli and were not stolen or whatever.
Never said Israel can do no harm or no wrong. I have merely been saying there is no specific evidence that Mossad/Israel is involved. Invectives towards leaders of Israel that you don't like does not count.
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kinniku
Sorry, should be: Since we do not know that it was Israel/Mossad, there is not much more to be said than that.
0
skipthesong
sabi, You missed my point. Come on, there have been assassination (wasn't there one at an Olympics?) by the Palestinians in other countries.
I don't think Dubai is a friend to Israel, so why shouldn't it be fair game. And, I am not looking at it from one side, I looking at it in the middle. If you were at war with someone, would you or would you not knock the guy even if you were at another person's house?
0
sabiwabi
If he was a guest at that house, and I was not at war with the owner of the house, then I probably wouldn't.
And I certainly would not use my friend's passport!
0
kinniku
Again, we still don't know for sure who was behind this killing. However, since Israel and Dubai do not have diplomatic relations, Israelis are not considered guests in Dubai anyway. Now, I know you will come back with 'Yeah, that's right.' or 'They should not be.' or whatever. However, that is my personal point.
You certainly have an interesting point about the use of another country's passport. However, to say this kind of thing is only limited to the particular countries whose governments you don't like and not standard practice amongst most, if not all, intelligence agencies speaks of naiveté.
0
grafton
Kinniku, please remember that Sabi does have a right to his opinion, this is a site where limited free speech is allowed, granted his opinion is based more on what he wants to believe rather than any hard evidence and although at other times he will tell us all that the world media (except of course JT) is controlled by Jewish interests now he believes everything they have to say about Mossad. Strange contradiction I know, but it is his opinion and he has a right to it so long as JT don’t take exception to what he writes. There is no evidence to Mossad being the killers, only masses of media speculation which is not unusual given the medias endless campaign to damn all things Isareli. As for governments asking Israeli to explain what is happening re the passports, well what else would they do given that the media have openly accused Israel of involvement in the killing and governments are always media lead, being fearful of losing votes.
One thing that I am curious about that seems to have got lost in the “Mossad did it” campaign is what false passport was al-Mabhouh travelling on and why is no fuss being made about that. After all it is surely just as insulting and wrong for him to have entered a “friendly” country like Dubai on false documents as it was for the killers to do so. What also might be seen as a little strange is that a man was killed, all be it a man that needed killing, yet the fuss is about passports. Personally I don’t believe this is down to Mossad, but in the end I really don’t care, a man who made killing his work was killed, how and by whom that was done really isn’t at all that important, the world became a little safer that day.
0
kinniku
grafton,
That is certainly an interesting point about al-Mabhouh's passport. I guess I am a bit naive myself as I just assumed he used his own passport. Did he also enter with a faked passport? If so, you are absolutely correct that the silence about this part of the case is quite deafening.
I think we both agree, if (it is of course still if at this point) Mossad was involved, the head of Mossad should be required to resign. It will not only be other countries' governments, it will be Israel's very own citizens who will be up in arms over this.
It is also interesting that we have not heard much more about the three Palestinians arrested and being held in Dubai and what their connection to the case is. So far, they are the only arrested links to it.
0
DeepSpace
Good spy work
0
sabiwabi
Standard practice among most? But it seems its only the Mossad that keeps getting caught using passports from allied countries. Are they really that incompetent? I guess so...
0
sabiwabi
Could you elaborate? What passport did he use?
No, he was a man who tried to defend his people against ethnic cleansing. If anyone needs to be killed, it would be Livni, Barrack, Netenyahu, Olmert....
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Yes, it is the standard practice among most countries. That is a fact. Mossad has not got "caught" any more than other spy agency. In fact, they have not, as yet, been 'caught' regarding this case.
a-Mabhouh was a weapons dealers for a group that uses their weapons randomly, eg rockets and floating bombs and uses their weapons to kill their own people when they disagree with them. This is a reality. That is not defence. It is an offence to anyone who loves peace and wishes for peace in the Middle East. Again, I do not say killing him was right. However, I am not shedding any tears over his loss.
0
kinniku
Both the Times and al-Jazeera have reported that sources say al-Mabhouh was traveling under false documents. However, so far, both Hamas and Dubai deny this.
So far, the only people arrested in connection with this case are Palestinians.
0
goodDonkey
grafton said:
What are you blind to history? In 1997 Mossad attempted to assassinate Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal in Jordan. This was under under orders from Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Not only did they not complete their mission, Jordanian authorities arrested two Mossad agents. Benjamin Netanyahu was embarrassed into turning over the antidote for the nerve toxin used on Khaled Mashaal.
I just got sick and tired of hearing grafton try to claim it could not have been Mossad because they don't screw up that badly. I am not claiming Mossad assassinated Mahmoud al-Mabhouh. I am simply saying that grafton's premise of Mossad never being so stupid is dead wrong. History bears this out.
0
Helter_Skelter
Badsey
Funny.
0
kinniku
goodDonkey,
As you have correctly pointed out, Mossad is not any less prone to being imperfect than any other intelligence agency. However, the event in 1997 is not an example of stupid actions. It is an example of unsuccessful ones. This time, Israeli citizens' passports were used. If it is Mossad, it would be an example of stupid actions, although the mission did prove to be successful.
0
sabiwabi
I listed examples the other day when Mossad did get caught with passport from allied countries. Do you know of any specific examples from other spy agencies, or are you making stuff up again.
The victim was trying to help his people defend itself against a regime that has been ILLEGALLY occupying its land for a very long time and committing genocide. The only Palestinians Hamas has killed were those traitors who, backed by the genocidal regime, was trying to take over Gaza.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Do try to be nice. I have never made up anything as you well know. Of course other intelligence agencies have used passports of other countries. Russian intelligence has been well known for such activities for one example. Other agencies have also been caught in the act of espionage. Mossad is not unique in that regard at all. Anyway, I will not get dragged into another of your high risk deletable tangents.
Al-Mabhouh was a weapons dealer. Plain and simple. He was a death dealer. He helped Hamas to continue to avoid their responsibilities to their people. Hamas has continued to avoid the road to peace since coming to power. That is nothing about which to cheer. You claim to know who and why Hamas killed Palestinians. However, I think it is incorrect to call Fatah 'traitors' to the Palestinians. If anything, it is Hamas that has taken Gaza to the brink in a very short time. In 2005, Gaza was Israeli free and the Palestinian Authority controlled the border between Gaza and Egypt. Hamas managed to ruin that. Al-Mabhouh's weapons dealing would only have helped Hamas to ruin it further.
0
grafton
“Could you elaborate? What passport did he use?”
You know perfectly well that I cannot answer that, we know it was false but we haven’t been told by the Dubai police what it was.
“No, he was a man who tried to defend his people against ethnic cleansing”
Which is your interpretation of Israel defending itself against people like Al-Mabhouh who bought weapons aimed at killing Israeli civilians. But however you look at it he was a legitimate target even by your own reasoning. If he fought for Hamas against Israel he knew better than you that he was a legitimate target and no doubt he accepted that risk. And no that does not mean that I accept that Mossad killed him. There is still absolutely no evidence that would stand up in any court (except perhaps a Hamas court) to prove Mossad did anything. Show us what you believe constitutes evidence.
goodDonkey at 01:17 PM JST - 27th February
I have never said that Mossad has never made mistakes, they of course have, but this insanity in Dubai is not an operation gone wrong, as Kinniku said it didn’t go wrong. But 26 or more people to kill one and they all end up on CCTV and all leave their photos though not their true identity. Mossad can like any agency make mistakes, but this is ridiculous. And it isn’t like anything Mossad has ever been known to have done before. There is something very wrong with this and it is this “wrongness” that makes me believe this is no Mossad. And yes I do generally defend Israel, but I never lose sight of the fact that they do very often go over the top, they can be their own worst enemy in that respect. They are not perfect and there are times when even I think them monstrous in their actions and would say so. What I find stunning about your post is that you ignore the narrowness of Sabi and attack me, if you are sick of one surely you should be sick of us both. Maybe you should just read something else. No, I am not insulted by what you wrote, I really do believe in free expression and speech, but I also believe in balance.
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sabiwabi
No! He was trying to defend his people against a genocidal, war criminal, occupying power. Big difference.
As gooddonkey correctly pointed out, the Mossad tried a very similar thing (and failed) against another Hamas official while Netenyahu was leader. The Mossad is not as great as some posters here seem to believe.
Also, the Dubai police is almost 100% certain its them, and senior Israeli intelligence officials are convinced its them. Being realistic is not the same as being narrow.
0
kinniku
Al-Mabhouh was a weapons dealer. Plain and simple. He was a death dealer. He helped Hamas to continue to avoid their responsibilities to their people. Hamas has continued to avoid the road to peace since coming to power. That is nothing about which to cheer.
Again, (and again) nobody is saying Mossad is perfect. However, you seem to blame them for everything. In fact, you used to blame them and Israel for Hamas' rockets until Hamas' admitting they were doing it forced you to give that up.
It is when you neglect to see that, as of yet, there is no evidence of Mossad involvement and that there are plenty of experts, both Israeli and not, who think Mossad was not involved.
Where is your evidence that you think they are involved in this case?
0
sabiwabi
No! He was trying to defend his people against a genocidal, war criminal, occupying power. Big difference. If the west was not lead by a bunch of spineless whores, they would have come to the defense of the Palestinians and made Israel respect international law and the Palestinians would not resort to firing their small rockets.
If you bothered to read the articles you post in, you would know that the Dubai police (those who have been investigating the murder) is almost 100% certain its them, and some senior Israeli intelligence officials are convinced its them.
You and others, especially at the start, were saying that the Mossad are so good and professional that they would never screw up this badly. I and others have provided examples where they have screwed up many times in the past, and in one particularly similar case, they had the same Prime Minister they have now!
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
I understand you support Hamas and you support what they do. However, the fact remains Al-Mabhouh was a weapons dealer. Plain and simple. He was a death dealer. He helped Hamas to continue to avoid their responsibilities to their people. Hamas has continued to avoid the road to peace since coming to power. Hamas that has taken Gaza to the brink in a very short time. In 2005, Gaza was Israeli free and the Palestinian Authority controlled the border between Gaza and Egypt. Hamas managed to ruin that. Al-Mabhouh's weapons dealing would only have helped Hamas to ruin it further.
Just because Dubai police say they are 100% sure (I believe they say 99% BTW) does not mean it is true. That is not evidence in and of itself. Neither are experts when other equally expert people have the opposite opinion.
Mossad has never "screwed up" this badly before. They have never used their own countrymen's passports in the past. We don't know as yet that they have now. What we do know is that assassination was certainly successful. We also know three Palestinians are, so far, the only people to be arrested and held in this case. We have further been told that they seem to be Hamas members.
Other than circumstancial evidence nothing specific has been provided thus far. That is where the case stands right now. Were this to be Mossad, I and others have certainly made our opinions clear that it would be a big screw up only because they involved their own countrymen. Other than that, the hit was successful. Screw up implies that it was not.
Anyway, all we have is a bunch of opinions one way or the other. We have absolutely no facts pointing to Israel or Mossad as of yet. If you have some specific facts, I am sure the Dubai Police would love to hear from you, not to mention a few European countries and some Israelis that had their ID's stolen.
0
WilliB
This is getting ridiculous. At this clip, the Dubai authorities will soon indict all Isrealis.
(Which is, coming to think of it, what they want anyway.)
Fact is, all we know so far is that a) a killer was killed b) there were plenty of parties interested in killing him (notably his muslim rival organisations) and c) everybody is happy to blame the Jews for it
0
stevecpfc
WilliB, executions in other nations borders is illegal under international law. If Israel and its dwindling supporters ant sympathy than murder without trial is not the way. In fact it is state sanctioned terrorism on foreign soil.
Imagine if an Israeli big wig were killed overseas by a Hmas hit squad! Think about it right winger good guys!
0
stevecpfc
kinniku " Mossad have never screwed up this badly before". Always a first time and cctv technology is helping to discover the identities of this croos border terrorist fiends.
0
kinniku
stevecpfc,
Of course, this could be the first time. However, as of yet, there is absolutely no evidence connecting Mossad/Israel to this case, that includes CCTV images. In fact, you completely incorrectly claimed some Israeli politicians had admitted Mossad was involved and you went so far as to claim this was broadcast on BBC, CNN and Fox. Of course, we all know that was completely inaccurate. So, what we have discovered is that some people are willing to write and say anything as long as it can be used in an attempt to implicate Israel in something.
I find it simply amazing that some expect us to automatically believe it is Israel when we have no specific reason to do so. Maybe it is and maybe it isn't. However, falsely claiming Israeli politicians have said something they certainly have not said certainly makes your case much less convincing.
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sabiwabi
The Mossad have screwed up in bigger ways before. At least this time they killed the intended target.
Maybe they did not expect the Dubai police to be so diligent. If they did not suspect murder, they never would have bothered looking at the CCTV.
Anyway, the Dubai police (those who have been investigating the murder) is almost 100% certain its them, and some senior Israeli intelligence officials are convinced its them. There is no reason for them to provide their evidence now, their investigation is ongoing.
I hope the Israelis won't complain when Israelis involved in the killing of Palestinians will be executed, such as the IDF killer they captured a while back.
0
kinniku
I know you like to claim how much Mossad 'screws up'. However, you seem to misunderstand what the words mean. Anyway, the media and people like you have repeatedly accused Israel have being involved in this case. Yet, not one piece of evidence has surfaced to link Israel. Nothing. Zero. Zilch. Zip. Some Israeli experts say they think Mossad is involved. Some say they think they aren't. I say we should wait and actually see if any actual evidence comes out. However, some would prefer to just blindly blame Israel.
So far, all anyone knows for sure is that three Palestinians were arrested and are now being held in Dubai in connection with this murder. Further, it has been suggested these three people were Hamas members. That is all the evidence there is right now that has been made public. So far, it sure is not pointing at Israel.
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