New Jersey student's suicide resonates on campus, beyond
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17 Comments
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0
yabits
What a tragedy. I feel sadness for all involved.
The two students are going to have to live with this on their consciences for the rest of their lives.
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elbudamexicano
It is horrible, having room mates in college, even if you are both straight, you can have arguments etc...mixing straight and gay students just sounds like a recipe for this kind of incident, so all universities around the world better start checking out what kind of students they are allowing into their schools, and letting the students choose say (I do not want a gay room mate etc..) just to avoid this or on the other hand if the student is a gay or lesbian, to choose another gay/lesbian student and keep away from straight students, just to try to avoid this or have a gay dorm?? Heck, have a gay university let gays feel free and happy in one big gay and lesbian university with out others judging them.
0
amerijap
This is one of the most despicable, unpardonable sins to be tolerated in a democratic world. We can’t let Satan bounce on the edge of people’s conscience and seduce them into the wicked acts.
0
Beelzebub
Malicious mischief by spoiled little brats at an Ivy League school. I hope Clementi's family appeals to Don Corleone to make sure they get real, old-fashioned Sicilian justice.
0
Triumvere
elbudamexicano
1) I have seen no evidence that they wouldn't have done this to a straight roomate.
2) you are advocating dorms segregated by sexual orientation?
0
mikehuntez
Here is someone trying to say that the 2 guilty people were instigating a "hate crime" again. I wish people can see it as it was. They didn't respect his privacy and in his own embarrassment he committed suicide. They are not guilty of a "hate crime"!! But hope they feel guilty for his death anyway as they are indirectly responsible for it. Clementi is the one who is directly responsible as it was his choice.
0
Klein2
"DeGeneres, one of the first Hollywood celebrities to come out of the closet,"
Yeah. If you are under 20 years old she is. And what do they mean "Hollywood?" Rock Hudson, Jim Nabors and Liberace, Truman Capote, Gore Vidal. David Bowie, etc. I could name 20 more if I worked at it. And frankly, Ellen was a bit more obvious than Rock Hudson.
I was probably the only straight guy on my whole dorm floor. No wait, I think there was one other guy out of about 25. It was bizarre, but I was definitely in the minority. They arranged for me and this other guy to get GREAT rooms so that they could pair up in all the others. Everybody was always hitting on everybody. I never ever thought it would be cool to out somebody or to put their affairs in front of the world. It was ok. People were people. Things worked out.
It turned out that they were the all around coolest people on campus anyway.
These people saying that this is a problem for gay people and a threat to the gay community are off the mark because, despite the Alan Shepard thing, people have been pretty openly gay in the US since the 80s. That is why the Shepard thing was shocking and Horrible then, even in Laramie Wyoming. What seems most clear is that this roommate emphasized that this person was gay and thought it would particularly humiliate him because he was gay. So I think "hate crime" fits. I don't think the roommate would have done it if Clementi were bringing home a girl after a party. Would you have cared? Would anybody? No. Clementi politely told the roommate he needed the room at a certain time, and the roommate set up the whole thing in advance and told people to watch because it was going to be special.
The roommate did a monstrous thing. As a roommate and as a person, he fails. People are shocked and should be shocked because this roommate went way over a line that was drawn 50 years ago. Clementi did not kill himself from embarrassment. He killed himself because he could not believe someone could be so cruel. And he is right. It is unbelievable.
Triumvere: "no evidence that they wouldn't have done this to a straight roomate."
You do understand that his has NOTHING to do with what the prosecutor must show, right? Is contraposition a fallacy? I guess it is if you don't know what it is.
Elbuda: you don't need to segregate people to have them get along. People just need to be more tolerant, that's all. It USED to be that universities were the most tolerant of all places.
0
Zenny11
No need for segregation, respect peoples right to do their own stuff behind closed doors and that everybody needs their private times.
Don't matter if it is 2 girls, 2 guys or a hetero-sexual and a gay/lesbian sharing.
I have worked with gays at one company and been to gay clubs with them, etc. Never any problem they respected that I was straight and everybody got along well, they are some of my best and most supportive friends.
Agree that the Room-mate went way over the line.
0
MisterCreosote
First off, his name was Mathew Shepard, not Alan. What was horrible about 'the Sheperd thing' was the b.s. spin put on it by the lib media and the way the Left falsified the facts of the crime to use his case as cause for a campaign against "hate" that is supposedly driven by Christian groups who "control" places like Wyoming. Shepard,who apparently had a bit of a drug problem, left a bar thinking the 2 sociopaths he was with would help him get drugs. After they robbed and murdered him their next victims, the same night, were 2 straight males. But with the so-called campaign it's the usual selective outrage from the Left, and even though you have reason and facts on your side to disagree with them is to be labeled "a hater." The way they publicly try to shame anyone who counters the The Narrative is every bit as shameful as the way Clementi's room mates tried to humiliate him.
0
Triumvere
Klein2.
You do understand that I'm not talking about the prosecution, right? Or the court case at all?
elbudamexicano is saying that this kind of incident (ie privacy invasion) is more likely to occur with gay/straight roomates. He is using the case to support his argument, even though it doesn't actually prove any causation. Likewise, the fact that there is no real evidence IMO, to indicate that this was influnced by sexual orientation doesn't disprove elbudamxicano's theory, but it might cause him or others to rethink it.
0
WilliB
Beelzebub:
Lets get real here. Of course what happened is tragic, but I see no indication that this is what the two wanted. What I see is a case of tacky behaviour and bad judgement.
Of course they should be punished for that, but keep things in perspective. The suicide was the decision of kid. If he had a different psychological make-up, he could have laughed it off, or reacted with anger. Note that the other guy involved did not kill himself.
0
Beelzebub
WilliB: "Keep things in perspective?" Try telling that to the family of the dead kid.
0
WilliB
Beelzebub:
No, I won´t. That is precisely why we have justice systems in modern countries, and not family vendettas and blood revenge. Precisely to keep things in perspective.
0
Klein2
"a case of tacky behaviour and bad judgement."
No. It is a crime. They have already been charged with two counts each and there will be ample evidence to convict. Clementi had every reason to think he was in a private room. He asked his roommate specifically NOT to be in the room at that time. The roommate invaded his privacy specifically to record and distribute the record of an act that he knew was to be private and thought would be embarrassing. He planned it and did it twice. Ravi's Twitter account shows that he tormented Clementi for "making it with a dude", and he invited others for video chat so anyone who wanted could watch the second time.
The hate crime bit just doubles the maximum sentence.
I am surprised that porn charges aren't being used. There is evidence to show that he planned to record a sex act and did so, and that he invited people of any age to watch it. If I were prosecuting I would throw it all at the roommate and let him choose prison time or letting him "register with the local authorities for the rest of his life". Let him explain THAT to his future employers.
You know WilliB. I think the suicide is just the exclamation point. Ravi and friend should not be punished for being murderers. Maybe not even for being hate mongers. But they did willfully ruin this guys life by doing illegal things repeatedly that Clementi was powerless to stop. You really think 5 years in prison is too much?
0
Klein2
Triumvere, I gave your idea a lot of thought, and I'll be darned if something bizarre did not pop into my head.
If I had a client facing 20 years for brutally raping a six year old girl and she happened to be of a different race, well he would be facing a 40 year prison sentence because of the hate crime. In such a case, knowing my client was going to get convicted anyway, I would use your argument. I would say, "this guy is such a despicable sadist that he would do it to absolutely anybody. He didn't care if she was black. In fact, nobody could prove he wouldn't do the exact same thing to anybody." So then he gets his 20 years, but I spare him from getting 40, but only if the jury thinks he is purely evil. I wonder if he would thank me.
I think Ravi should be charged like that. I hope his lawyer uses this tactic. Unfortunately, his Twittering about sex with a dude is something that a jury is going to give him another five years for, because he is just not despicable enough.
0
Triumvere
Klein2,
Am I missing something? I was under the impression that Ravi and Wei haven't been charged with anything beyond invasion of privacy.
Are you refering to my statement from the previous thread that hate crimes should be decided base on actions taken that terrorize the minority community at large rather than "thought crimes" on the part of the perpetrator? Or just the idea that Ravi might have done the same to a straight roomate? I don't think any criminal should get an automatic "hate crime" conviction just because their victim is of a different ethnic/religious group or sexual ortientation. That's a very dangerous rode to travel down.
Also, you describe Ravi as "tormenting" Clementi for having sex with a man; are there more twitter messages that I haven't seen? Every article I've read has only had the "my roomate is making out with a dude. yay." comment, which is fairly ambiguous. It could be a homophobic condemnation, but it could just as easily be an expression of surprise (ie he didn't know previously that his roomate was gay). I think a lot have people have been leaping to conclusions because the incident recalls an established pattern (gays being bullied and shamed by their peers, then commiting suicide).
Finally, does anyone know what Wei is supposed to have done to warrant a charge? None of the articles have mentioned any action taken by her (save the implied fact that she allowed Ravi to use her computer). I assume she must have been in on the broadcasting of information regarding the webcam to Ravi's twitter feed.
0
mikehuntez
No Clementi shared the room with the roommate. He asked for the room so if he didn't take precautions about his own privacy then that is his own fault. Asking your roommate to stay away from his own room is asking for trouble and he was too naive to know this. Ravi is only guilty of posting Clementi's private acts on the internet without his permission. Not for his suicide although I'm willing to bet they feel kinda guilty for it despite that. Legally he is not responsible for the death.
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