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  Wolfpack at 11:47 PM JST - 25th August

  There is really going to be a lot of investigations when the liberal NY Times begins outing more CIA undercover officers. Somehow I don't think the Left will care so much about who outed them as Armitages' outing of Valerie Plame. I agree that we should investigate Pelosi's involvement in sanctioning "torture" and that she should be frogged marched out of Congress straight to a prison cell on Alcatraz island.

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  skipthesong at 12:26 AM JST - 26th August

  Let's compare that to the dead POWs that were interrogated by the CIA. They are dead." What Gitmo POW was killed by the CIA and just how do you know that?

  does anyone know of a true, unbiased list that tells us what detainees went through? Some of the allegations I would hardly call torture

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  Taka313 at 12:36 AM JST - 26th August

  "Justice for all."

  A concept totally lost on the fringe elements of the right. My boy has already started the conspiracy theories that its a smoke screen.

  The STILL just cannot get over the election. We've hit whine. The next question is when those stomping feet and sour grapes turn to wine.

  Taka

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  Taka313 at 12:43 AM JST - 26th August

  Wolfpack,

  I'll see your pelosi and raise you a bush, cheney, rumsfeld, yoo and wolfowitz.

  I'm pretty confident in my cards. Do you still want to play?

  Taka

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  RomeoRamenII at 02:56 AM JST - 26th August

  Obama is such a complete failure at this point he's gotta do something to direct attention away from himself.

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  Molenir at 05:34 AM JST - 26th August

  Heh, agree with Romeo, seems more like an attempt at a disatraction then a real attempt to punish the criminals. The obama administrations handling of the health care issue is so inept, and generating so much heat, they felt they needed to distract people somehow. They can't start a war, as they're already fighting one, they can't bomb someplace, they already are. They don't want to push to hard against either Iran, Obamas new best friends, or NK, too dangerous. So they come up with this crap. If this doesn't work, they'll probably start trying to blame Bush for something else. Hes so unpopular that might actually work, even if it does open the door for the same thing to happen to the Obama 3 years from now when he is properly tossed out of office.

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  skipthesong at 09:59 AM JST - 26th August

  there is absolutely no reason for this to be so public and at this time. This is not progress.

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  Taka313 at 10:55 AM JST - 26th August

  Skip,

  Justice is always progress. Denying justice or pooh-poohing it away is, in my opinion, the TRUE opposite of progress.

  Taka

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  skipthesong at 12:06 PM JST - 26th August

  Justice is always progress" right, so spend time on getting the terrorist and the people hired to do so shouldn't be worrying about what is going to happen to them when doing a job.

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  Taka313 at 01:18 PM JST - 26th August

  Skip,

  Noted. Justice doesn't mean as much to you as it does me.

  What kind of car do you have? I'm just curious because, you know, I know you wouldn't call the cops and all. ;-)

  Seriously, I way disagree. I want justice for all. But we (as a nation) must ensure our own moral and legal ducks are in a row before punishing others for not having theirs, imo. That means we stay clean and on the side of good.

  That also makes it FAR easier to enlist the aid of other countries, don't you think? Wouldn't you say that Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib haven't harmed our relationships with our allies? I'm not talking about their opinion, I'm talking real relationships.

  If I'm the Benevolent Dictator for Life of Outer Takaolia, I'm wondering about diplomatic ties with a country that tortures. I'm REALLY wondering about doing trade with a country that scoops ups hand fulls of people, holds them in a prison, pretends they only flirted with torture and still wants the high ground.

  The problem with the no-holds-barred method is that when the dust settles, we'll find out who are real friends are.

  Treaties are broken and alliances crumble and when we shoot ourselves in the foot by not doing things the right way, we make breaking those promises a little easier.

  Taka

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  Molenir at 03:38 AM JST - 27th August

  Taka, what matters in the end is results. Thats all. Not the means nor the methods, but the end results. Not saying its right or proper, but thats just the way it is. You're saying you want justice, and that if someone is tortured to provide information when that information could save lives, then there should be an apology and repercussions for those who did the torturing, and those who gave the order to allow it. I'm saying, that when the end results are that lives are saved, then to me that is justified. Its not good, its not ideal, but its far better then that people were killed, when you have a person in custody you know could have prevented it, simply by telling you what he knew. If you know this, and you know that the application of threats, pain etc could cause him to spill, and save lives, and you choose not to act? What does that say about you? That you're more concerned with following procedure, and having other people think you're a good guy, then in saving peoples lives? What if it was your family under threat? Still feel the same way?

  When doing things the "right way", is more important then the lives of innocents, something is seriously messed up.

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  tigermoth at 04:57 AM JST - 27th August

  This is all fine to argue on a forum such as this, but these political arguments based on liberal or conservative leanings and the ‘oh yeah? Well before you said…’ never really confronts the realities of an issue.

  The U.S. carrying out and condoning torture of its enemies for information is the fundamental issue. Taken on its own, you can hardly argue that it is not morally horrendous to condone such a thing. In the past, the one thing that I think has always held Americans on a higher plateau was their refusal to lower themselves to the level of an enemy on such matters. We’re the ‘land of the free and the home of the brave’ – we don’t torture people. Piercing screams in a dank prison cell are scenes from the middle ages. We signed the Geneva Convention and always tried to uphold our moral standards (though only a fool would think we’ve always been honest to this).

  But the problem is that our current enemy is fundamentally on the same level as the middle ages, where torture is an acceptable form of gaining information. In the first Gulf War (Desert Storm) the Iraqis unashamedly tortured those they captured. Those that we are fighting now wouldn’t think twice about torturing their American captors or beheading them on video. You have to get that Western, ‘civilized’ mind-set out of your heads. That is – if you want to have any sort of chance of ever ‘winning’ this war on terror – whatever that means. While it is morally superior to take the higher ground, it is impractical and dangerous on the level of survivability. Reject the stupid argument of ‘if we torture them, they will torture our soldiers – you’re only making things worse for them’. News flash – they already do torture anyone they might capture. Wrap your mind around the fact that they have absolutely no issue about detonating a bomb in a car in a crowded market that will assuredly kill scores of innocent civilians – not even the ‘enemy’ they’re fighting. Putting them on a board that simulates drowning, or threatening to shoot their family is child’s play.

  It comes down to choices. The Bush administration made the difficult choice to obtain information in a manner that we all find horrendous. It should be pointed out that as far as we know they didn’t actually physically harm anyone – which is far more than our enemy can say. But it still goes against our beliefs of right and wrong, and our core values. But – and here’s the big thing – it might have saved some lives by stopping a terrorist plot. If not directly it might have ruined some plan or made them re-think something else. Or you can choose the moral high ground and just hope that normal intelligence channels can glean the information you need. Some it can, much it will not; the enemy is sophisticated and intelligent – not a bunch of 'guys on camels'.

  Would you rather live with the moral implications that some guy was water-boarded in a basement at Gitmo but it prevented some event from happening? Or would you rather see another list of dozens, hundreds or thousands of names of dead men, women and children being shown on the news?

  I work in NY and just went to the State Museum at lunch-time. They have a 9-11 display and on a video screen you can see the faces and names of all who died on that day. Without sounding corny, it is sobering. They aren’t obscure references or names from a newspaper article, but the smiling faces of the more than 2,900 people that had lives just like you and I. If psychologically torturing a few men can even potentially prevent that from happening again, then I have to say I’m for it. While it pulls at the fabric of our fundamental beliefs, I’m not prepared to potentially sacrifice so many innocent lives. A soldier trained, armed and put in harm’s way is vastly different than someone sitting at their desk in an office.

  However, I do find it interesting – and a bit sickening as well – that so many of you are so very concerned about the civil rights of a few men who are likely terrorists (or supporters of their actions) in the first place, yet I never heard many of you rise in protest when they were doing the torturing and beheading.

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  sfjp330 at 05:08 AM JST - 27th August

  President Obama's goal of "looking foward, not backward" is no impediment to investigating whether terrorism suspects were subject to illegal treatment. Determining whether crimes were committed is the only way to maintain the integrity of the nation's laws and deter abuses in the future. Republicans, never hesitant to launch their own investigations when it suits them, are howling that Holder is on a witch hunt. They will say it will damage the CIA's morale. The bigger question now involves the new interogation team. How far will Obama allow them to go to obtain information from suspected terrorists?

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  Taka313 at 06:36 AM JST - 27th August

  Molenir,

  Then you will just have to disagree with me and the founding fathers of our country.

  Taka

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  Molenir at 05:39 AM JST - 28th August

  Tigermoth - Good post.

  Taka, thought you were Japanese, not American. Whatever. The constitution says no cruel and unusual punishment, not no torture. It doesn't say you can't psychologically twist someone to reveal information. Particularly when you realize that torture does not necessarily equal punishment. The one is not the same as the other. It may be a fine distinction but it is there nevertheless.

  The bigger question now involves the new interogation team. How far will Obama allow them to go to obtain information from suspected terrorists?

  And does this make America safer?

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