Obama blitzing Florida, McCain defends Missouri
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0
Lieutenant
Yeah go Obama, you president. 50 times more popular than a fearmonger and warmonger and take-me-back-into-the-past-with-your-outdated-ideals old man.
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adaydream
Missouri will be going Obama, also. < :-)
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tkoind2
McCain's approach is earning him the distaste of a lot of people. He looks like a bitter, paranoid, extreme right wing old man. Palin looks like a redneck housewife who would be more at home in a trailer with a shotgun strapped to the back of her pickup windown, than as any role in the White House. Can't even imagine her as cleaning help.
And the GOP... well... they look at fault for a lot of what people are dealing with day to day.
I sincerely believe that McCain is finished. All Obama and his supporters have to do now is get out the vote on election day.
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timorborder
Wasn't it raining in Missouri when McCain was there? This is not fair, the Democrats are playing the GOP at their own game (money politics) and winning. What are we going to do, the US electorate may actually be waking up from the coma which led them to elect Curious George not once but twice! Will this impact my Halliburton shares? What about that other nice little earner, the war in Iraq, if you cannot profit on death and misery, what other investment opportunities are there? George and Dick, what is happening, pump up the drug supply before Joe Plumber and his friends actually vote in a person with Presidential material.....
0
coulrophobic
"...the US electorate may actually be waking up from the coma which led them to elect Curious George not once but twice! "
Mods - will we be able to liken Obama to a simian when he is president?
Moderator: No.
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Sarge
"Missouri will be going Obama also"
Heck, West Virginia's going for Obama! McCain may not win a single state, not even Arizona! Oh, he might get Alaska, but that's really Canada.
0
Lieutenant
Finally, something understandable.
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Sarge
"Finally, something understandable."
So, Lieutenant, you think Alaska is really Canada, do ya?
0
Altria
Hope people don't get lazy and not bother voting because they think Obama's got it already.
0
Lieutenant
Yes Sarge. I really, really do.
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Taka313
I've noticed of late that the polls are starting to tighten up recently. I really hate to think it has anything to do with candidate mccain returning to his smear campaign. Both candidates seemed to have found their way down into the mud and I thought both had dragged themselves from it as well. mccain and palin's ridiculous "socialist" accusations and the Ayers lunacy have firmly cemented them back down in the mire.
Not.very.classy.
Taka
0
timtak
It is not who anymore but, by how much. I think that a landslide will be generally positive and good for the economy.
0
Betzee
I've noticed of late that the polls are starting to tighten up recently:
Not really, Taka.
In a poll taken just before the first presidential debate, the Obama-Biden ticket held a five point edge, with 48 percent of likely voters backing the Democratic ticket and 43 percent supporting the Republican ticket of John McCain and Sarah Palin.
Those 476 likely voters were re-interviewed for the new poll, and their responses suggest that the Democratic ticket has made gains since the initial survey: The Obama-Biden ticket now holds a 13-point edge, 54 percent to 41 percent, among the group.
McCain is kinda flailing about, giving a speech today denouncing the liberal media and its bias against him. The St Louis crowd numbered 2,000. Obama spoke to 100,000 in the same locale on Saturday.
McCain has also given up on Colorado. He's not gonna drop another dime there. His base of red states is being eroded and he's being forced to play defensive (which is never good).
0
frontandcentre
McCain was in jail in Vietnam for years - so it won't be the first time he's given up hope...
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frontandcentre
Sarge, logically and geographically speaking Alaska should be part of Canada, shouldn't it?
Moderator: Back on topic please. Canada is not relevant to this discussion.
0
yabits
油断大敵。(Yudan taiteki. Seems like the appropriate Japanese thing to say, in this regard.)
0
coulrophobic
"Will this impact my Halliburton shares? What about that other nice little earner, the war in Iraq, if you cannot profit on death and misery, what other investment opportunities are there?"
That horse is so long dead it doesn't even stink, and yet the Left just can't stop flogging away.
Do you honestly believe a cabal of "Neo Cons" stole Iraq's oil?
Do you drive?
Do you read the papers or follow the news?
0
SuperLib
I just emailed my ballot to my home state. One vote for Obama...
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Taka313
SuperLib, The majority of America, I believe, thanks you.
Taka
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Taka313
Betzee, I based my earlier statement on two factors, both coming from realclearpolitics.com. Sen. Obama's lead in the opinion polls has dropped (from an 8.2 point lead to the current 5.8) and Florida, for a few days, at least, was "leaning Obama," but has now gone back to being undecided. I do believe that the Obama campaign has wisely, forced candidate mccain to use valuable campaign time and money, to try and hold states that were previously "red" so that they cannot devote more energy toward toss-up states. If that is the type of shrewd leadership we can expect from an Obama presidency, I think the country will be in good (better) hands.
Taka
0
Betzee
Taka,
I'm not that worried about it (in the interest of full disclosure,however, I've already put in for sick leave on the third and fourth, cuz I know I won't getting anything done at work).
McCain doesn't have a "strong finish message." Last week it was gonna be Joe the Plumber. (Few plumbers in my area could identify with his predicament as he stated it; most are just trying to hang on to what they have.)
This week the McCain campaign is talking about resurrecting Reverend Wright. That may appeal to those who've already lined in his column, it's unlikely to appeal to undecideds, however.
0
SezWho2
Regarding the money that Obama has raised, I wonder if that might not work to his disadvantage in these final weeks. If McCain has a strong finish message I think it is to call attention to Obama's reneging on his original promise to accept public funding, to appeal to American's sense of fair play and to point out that elections should not be bought, to promise to change election law so that this cannot happen again and even to question whether anyone could have raised so much money without circumventing current election laws or failing to monitor them adequately.
0
coulrophobic
The money - the alms that Obama has received only confirm the common observation that for much of the secular Left in modern America politics is religion.
0
Betzee
I had to suppress a chuckle when I heard Sarah Palin had stated her opposition to same-sex marriage on a Christian radio show and, wonders never cease, favors a constitution amendment barring it.
The irony, as far as I can see, is her own teenage daughter, soon to be a mother herself, has expressed a desire to marry the father of her unborn child but is unable to do so for entirely other reasons. Specifically, she would be dropped from her parents' health insurance plan. Her teenage fiance, who dropped out of high school and is in some sort of apprenticeship program, probably remains under his own parents' policy as well. Now Alaska no doubt has some health care program for the indigent, but it really won't look to good for Bristol Palin to avail herself of that option (even though it would allow her child to be born in wedlock) given her mother is the Governor, and a Republican at that.
My point is that if the Republicans could address the implications of one's choices as far as public policy is concerned, the debate would be so much more focused that simply beating anyone who disagrees with them over the head with a moral lecture. In this depressed economy, many Americans are up against some hard choices of the type Bristol Palin faces.
0
SezWho2
coulrophobic,
There's not much choice between a secular Left turning to politics for their religion and a theistic Right turning to religion for their politics.
Most of the "secular Left" are also religious. They just don't wear it on their sleeves or beat their neighbors over the head with it.
0
Betzee
SezWho,
GWB had a considerable financial advantage in 2004. It was used to buy up advertising time for the sole purpose of preventing John Kerry from getting his message out. I'm sure Obama will use his war chest in the same way.
From the citizens' perspective, this is an advantage of being in a state that's not competitive. We can go about daily life without being bombarded by political pitches.
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coulrophobic
Biden is starting to worry me. Does anybody know what he was talking about while stumping in Seattle yesterday?
"Mark my words," the Democratic vice presidential nominee warned at the second of his two Seattle fundraisers Sunday. "It will not be six months before the world tests Barack Obama like they did John Kennedy. The world is looking. We're about to elect a brilliant 47-year-old senator president of the United States of America. Remember I said it standing here if you don't remember anything else I said. Watch, we're gonna have an international crisis, a generated crisis, to test the mettle of this guy."
"I can give you at least four or five scenarios from where it might originate," Biden said to Emerald City supporters, mentioning the Middle East and Russia as possibilities. "And he's gonna need help. And the kind of help he's gonna need is, he's gonna need you - not financially to help him - we're gonna need you to use your influence, your influence within the community, to stand with him. Because it's not gonna be apparent initially, it's not gonna be apparent that we're right."
http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/10/20/174943/55
0
adaydream
Yep, I think I'll vote to have my retired medical benefits taxed for the first time in history.
Yep, cut medicare and medicade $880Billion.
I'm convinced, John McCain ain't my choice.
Oh, shucks I was already persuaded to vote for the tall, bright, handsome, educated black man already. < :-)
0
SezWho2
Betzee,
Well, you'll have to stay off the Internet if you want to avoid the political pitches altogether. Other than that, I'm sure you're right about how Obama will try to use his funding advantage. However, the advantage is so large that it still seems to me that the idea of such a large advantage could work against him if cleverly exploited.
On the other hand, McCain will have difficulty exploiting the reneging of Obama on his promise. The simple rejoinder to that is, "Wait a minute. It didn't occur to you that someone might not do what he said? And you want us to trust you with foreign policy? Where was your contingency plan?"
0
SezWho2
coulrophobic,
I think he means the same thing that you have been told by the current administration for the last 7 years: The world is a dangerous place.
If we have enemies--and it seems to me that you believe that we do--don't you think the enemies will test the mettle of a new leader?
0
timorborder
Obama's funding advantage. Probably safe to assume that he is coming to a box of cereal near you. Nice glossy ads on the back of the serial box to get at your kids. A corruption of the old jesuit hearts and minds strategy.
If this cult of personality develops any further, we might have to start referring to Barack as "Dear Leader" (ala North Korea). Now wouldn't that give the conspricacy theorists a shot in the arm! Imagine all the school kids with their mandatory Barack badges and neat little salutes ala Nuremburg in the 1930s. Might even push foreign language education in the US. Rush Limbaugh would keel over.
Obama would no longer be a closet muslim (because of the name he shares with a recently-departed middle-eastern dictator, that name being festus),
Nor would he be an african-american (despite the fact that one of his parent is white).
He would't even be a socialist (a term I think most US people have problems with because both main parties are either right of center or further right).
No! Obama would be a commie!!!!
0
Helter_Skelter
Superlib
Geez. I always thought you to be one of the more level headed posters here. Yet you vote for the candidate that gives wet dreams to every international socialist America-hater on JT. Not to mention the glowing endorsements he receives from terrorist groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. You used to ridicule third-world socialism, yet now you vote for it. Not sure why you went to the dark side on this one.
Tell you what. If Obama wins, I'll switch with you. You come back to the states and I'll move to Japan. Japan is pretty much going to be the only first-world nation left standing.
0
SushiSake3
SuperLib - "I just emailed my ballot to my home state. One vote for Obama..."
Cheers mate - a good vote.
I'll raise a glass for you on Nov 4th when Obama wins the election :-)
0
SushiSake3
It's about time for a black man in the White House.
I pity anyone who is still afraid of Barack Obama's skin color.
Obama has more common sense, nous and wisdom than the last 2 Republican presidents combined.
0
Sarge
coulrophobic - Biden was babbling. He does that.
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SushiSake3
Sarge, have you no respect for the next Vice President of the United States???
0
SushiSake3
But with support like this for Obama, there's just no way he can win....
http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2008/10/18/obama-rally-draws-100000-in-missouri/
0
Sarge
"It's about time for a black man in the White House."
Personally, I think it's about time for a black woman in the White House. But the Republicans didn't draft Condi.
It's not time for a black man because neither the Republicans nor the Democrats nominated a black man who is right for the country.
0
Statistician
Trouble is that McCain just saddled himself with a second-rate VP candidate who is all mouth and no experience. That was a fatal strategic move.
0
Altria
What about Colin Powell? You'd support him, and he supports Obama!
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SushiSake3
Sarge - "It's not time for a black man because neither the Republicans nor the Democrats nominated a black man who is right for the country."
Sarge, the MASSIVE crowds Obama is attracting - especially the 100,000 in St Louis, Missouri on Saturday and the 75,000 in Kansas, not to mention the eye-watering $150 million his campaign just raised in September (the amount he has raised could pay off a sizeable chunk of US national debt), just go to show that **this isn't a political campaign any more - it's a mandate for change **backed by the American people to disengage from the failed bush/mccain policies and grab onto a future that actually helps to bind Americans together rather than - what you so strongly support - tear your nation apart.
0
Helter_Skelter
What difference does it make what the skin color of the president? Race shouldn't be an issue in this election, yet the libs insist on bringing it up.
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Sarge
Sushi - Of course I have great respect for the next vice president of the United States - Governor Sarah Palin of the great state of Alaska!
But I also have respect for Biden, as does Nancy Pelosi, who, when praising him, called him "the full package." Now he's getting calls from Senator Larry Craig.
0
LFRAgain
Well, maybe they should have.
Or better yet, maybe McCain should have tapped Rice for his running mate, rather than the shameless pandering that Palin represents. While I don't agree with Rice's politicals, she's infinitely more qualified for the Vice President spot than Palin will ever be, and I guarantee you that if Rice were on The McCain ticket, conversations on JT over the past few weeks would have been vastly different.
But instead, we got what has to be the most colossal inside joke of American presidential political history with the choice of Sarah "I've got nuthin'" Palin.
In all seriousness, any Republican who is genuinely concerned about the future of this country (and not just a victory notch for the belt) should be absolutely furious with McCain right about now for some monumentally bad decision making.
0
SushiSake3
Helter - I agree 250% - Race shouldn't be an issue in this election.
If that's the case, then why are mccain's robocalls still insinuating that Obama is a Muslim, and Palin is on record as saying Obama is "not like us"?
It's all focused on the obvious fact that Obama is black (actually half black) but that makes little difference to Republicans who don't dare look more than skin deep.
0
Altria
Yep, Rice would have been a far better VP choice, since McCain on his own is actually a pretty capable guy.
0
SushiSake3
And now we have this - McCain Camp Manager: Colin Powell Not Equipped To Make Political Predictions.
"When asked on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" program Monday for his reaction to Colin Powell's endorsement of Barack Obama, **John McCain campaign manager Rick Davis **called into question the political acumen of the former Joint Chiefs chairman and Secretary of State.
"Look, I doubt if Colin Powell is equipped to do a whole lot of political prognostication," Davis said, dismissively, adding: "That's what you guys do, right?"
Davis was certain to add the de rigeur testimony to Powell's service, saying: "He is a great American and served this country with great distinction."
It was perhaps a snarky throwaway line, but it could be seen as a slight to the man McCain himself has described as one of the "most credible, most respected" men in the world.
mccain needs to fire this idiot now.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/mccain-camp-manager-colinn136095.html
0
Sarge
"Sarah "I've got nuthin'" Palin"
That's Sarah Barracuda Palin. You just hate her because you know she could whip you in a game of one-on-one basketball.
0
SushiSake3
LFRAgain - "In all seriousness, any Republican who is genuinely concerned about the future of this country (and not just a victory notch for the belt) should be absolutely furious with McCain right about now for some monumentally bad decision making."
I couldn't agree more.
I hear Chapter 1 of mccain's biography is going to be titled: "100 Reasons why Selecting Sarah Palin Wrecked my Political Career"
0
SushiSake3
I realize this is an aside, but when it comes to VP's, no one is going to lose any sleep should Joe Palin be required to step in as President.
But Sarah Palin???? ROFLMAO!!!! :-)
0
Sarge
Sushi - Joe Palin?
0
SushiSake3
Thanks Sarge - Joe **Biden **
0
LFRAgain
You know, you may very well be right on that point. But I'm pretty awesome from the 3-point line.
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coulrophobic
"Or better yet, maybe McCain should have tapped Rice for his running mate, rather than the shameless pandering that Palin represents."
McCain first met with Palin back in February.
Facts like this don't fit the simplistic picture you need to believe in, but that doesn't make them any less true.
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LFRAgain
Meeting Palin in February, in June, or three days before the announcing his running mate doesn't change the fact that she was a poor choice in virtually EVERY other category except her potential appeal to female voters (and NRA/anti-abortion/Christian White. . . oops, I meant Christian 'Right' supporters).
The proof is in the pudding, because if, as is claimed, Palin was approached in February, then the McCain campaign was preparing a strategy that assumed Hillary would get the Democratic nomination.
Palin was chosen to lure female voters. You know it and I know it. Show a little intergrity and just admit it.
0
skipthesong
I think we should all start talking about 2012. This election is now over as far as I am concerned.
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timorborder
Still cannot get over the idea that McCain has been shafted and set up for a fall by his own party. Sarah Who? If she is truly the best candidate for VP in the GOP talent pool, then the GOP is a finished political force.
0
Spider
**
But I fear it will be for many people. Still, the Obama-mania does offer hope for the States which, lest we forgot, maintained their separate drinking fountains for whites and blacks right into the 60s.
What I'd really like to see is a black (very black not mixed-race), lesbian, woman who comes out and admits she don't believe in God. When that person gets the nomination I'll begin to feel better about the USA as a country.
0
Spider
See above
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coulrophobic
"Palin was chosen to lure female voters. You know it and I know it. Show a little intergrity and just admit it."
Sorry. I just don't see it that way. If she were from Delaware and had been a fixture in the Senate for, oh, 30 plus years I might concede we are looking at a token.
Alaska has oil and gas. She has executive experience in this field and she has 80 percent support in Alaska. She took on the Old Boys in her own party. Name one Democrat about whom you could say that. Energy is a matter of national security. Economically, oil now approaches being something like a weapon of mass destruction. McCain gets it. Obama doesn't. It doesn't matter how many states he goes to, he'll remain tone deaf on that one.
Love her or hate her Sarah Palin evokes something very visceral in Americans.And not just women. That type of politician isn't going to fade away. There are already conservatives demanding she be made head of the RNC if not headed to the WH in 09.
I'm not crazy about McCain but picking her made me believe there was some substance to the 'maverick' tag the mainstream media gave him all these years.
It kills me how 'liberals' treat this amazing woman and 'old man' McCain. They really have no shame. All the righteous talk and legislation and the breast-beating about eliminating discrimination in the office or work place on the basis of gender or age or the sort of physical handicaps McCain's POW experience left him with counts for absolutely zero when it comes to political office.
'Liberals' need to face up to the fact that they have been seen through. Palin is hated because she is showing the entire nation how cheap and cynical identity politics is.
Ferchrissakes by the time the Dem primary was over both Geraldine Ferraro and Bill Clinton had been labeled "racists"! We have gone from that to "Sarah Palin is not a woman."
The media thought they had basically sent out the warning that anyone who dare oppose Obama or look too closely into his very shady past would be branded 'racist'.
Palin entered the picture and the dynamic changed.
The irony is as disgusting as it is tragicomic. The mainstream media, Hollywood, the political hacks on the Left and a frighteningly large swath of young and old in a party that insists it is 'tolerant' and 'inclusive' are indulging in the exact sort of mindless hatred and bigotry they had predetermined conservatives would poison this election with.
Of course they needed to believe in a conservative 'hatred' of their candidate order to bully and intimidate their way to victory - as they had done with Ferraro and Bill Clinton.
Democrats were clearly prepared to accuse Republicans of 'discrimination' even if it never came to materialize. Even with Obama's lead you still see pieces opining that if he loses it'll be because of racism.
But it is Palin and the reactions she evokes that is showing the country Dems are the ones who are anything but tolerant and inclusive.
0
Farmboy
I'm not a McCain supporter, but I don't see why people think Palin was a poor choice. McCain had the election lost, I think, until Palin came on board. The advantage she brings is that she has the potential of attracting the Christian right to vote because of her anti-abortion stand. These folks will vote as a block if they are approached in the right way, and will throw a huge number of votes for the Republican party based on Palin's stance alone. The gamble may not work/have worked, but strategically I don't think it was a poor choice. Keep in mind that, in the Republican party, most people do not have the same low opinion of her that Democrats do, and though a few influential Republicans felt she was a poor choice, most didn't. Strategically, I think McCain is the weak point, and he didn't come off as having any new ideas to help the economy. It is not Palin who is losing, or at least appears to be losing, this election. I still think this will be a lot closer than people say IF the Christian right gets on board.
0
SezWho2
Sarge,
I agree with you that the Republicans would have been better off to draft Rice. I think that would have been a far more palatable choice than Palin to women and blacks. As for Christian conservatives, they might prefer Palin but a minister's daughter couldn't have been a bad choice.
I also think, however, that McCain overlooked many qualified choices in selecting an unqualified one. If he loses the election--as it appears likely at the moment--I think he might be able to look back at the moment where he opted for a momentary distraction to Obama's success, a temporary boost in the popularity of his ticket and a more abiding lack of confidence in his judgment.
0
Betzee
Ah, but they have. Palin has played the identity card (several in fact), introducing herself as a female candidate whom disaffected Hillary supporters could flock to rather than vote for any man. Once it was clear this wouldn't work, she has played the rural-urban divide card (as she did yesterday):
"We believe that the best of America is in these small towns that we get to visit, and in these wonderful little pockets of what I call the real America, being here with all of you hard working very patriotic, um, very, um, pro-America areas of this great nation. This is where we find the kindness and the goodness and the courage of everyday Americans. Those who are running our factories and teaching our kids and growing our food and are fighting our wars for us. Those who are protecting us in uniform. Those who are protecting the virtues of freedom."
She's probably right, the military draws heavily from rural areas few of which have any factories left though Wal-Mart is a ubiquitous feature on the landscape. People don't need testimonials to their patriotism from the candidates nor does the political demography of the country need to be sliced up in a way that would do Joseph McCarthy proud. In short, not a winning formula given the country's economic woes.
While Palin provided an energy boost and initially galvanized the base, she did so at the cost of alienating moderates (who live in parts of "fake America" like suburbia where the Florida election will be decided). Moreover, I'm not sure how much female support she really has among Republican women. I sat next to a conservative (not right-wing) stay at home mother on a flight recently. I asked her about the conservative view toward working mothers and she told me, "Dr. Laura emphasizes you should stay home with your kids." I only know Dr. Laura by name but I wasn't surprised to hear this; I will be interested to see the post-election voting shake-out by gender.
0
YadotNapaj
The only one who know's why McCain choose Palin is McCain.
The only executive experience that Palin has that matters is that she abused the power of her office, and has not yet apologized to the voters of Alaska for that terrible breach of trust and breach of her constitutional oath.
And while she was abusing her power, her teenage daughter was out getting pregnant. She is a failure as a parent and a mother. Is that what "taking on the old boys" means?
The only visceral thing Palin evokes in Americans is fear and shame, fear that one day this nitwit could be President of the United States, and shame that this is the best that McCain could do.
As Gen. Colin Powell put it, the day McCain choose Palin he betrayed the American people, and the Republican party.
0
Nessie
Except for her appearance on SNL, all her identity cards have turned out to be jokers.
0
Betzee
Here's something of interest:
Barack Obama's favorability "is the highest for a presidential candidate running for a first term in the last 28 years" of New York Times/CBS polls.
Meanwhile, the Times reports, Sarah Palin's "negative rating is the highest for a vice-presidential candidate as measured by The Times and CBS News
Sarah Palin courted controversy and found it. And the McCain campaign had to tone down the negative passion it had ignited by campaigning on the patriotism card. Specifically, John McCain had to remind someone at one of his rallies that "Ma'am, Obama is a decent, family man." When I read this I thought to myself, "Now if you'd just stuck to the issues, this could have been avoided." Particularly in a time of economic distress, most people want answers not character assassination through guilt by association.
0
Sarge
Nessie - What do you think of Joe Biden saying he guarantees that within six months of Obama taking office, there will be a major international crisis? No, wait, before you answer that, what would you say if Palin had said that about McCain?
0
Betzee
Sarah Palin has achieved a lot, becoming Governor is no small feat, particularly when you lack name recognition. Certainly many unforgiving conservatives would nonetheless judge her harshly (if she were not one of them) over her daughter's situation. Social liberals might be more sympathetic, as Arnold Schwarzenegger was when he observed, "That could be anybody's daughter."
It's not the pregnancy itself that caused some voters to do a double take, it's the way the family handled it. Most people see parenting as providing your kids with at least as many opportunities, if not more, than you had. This is something which Governor Palin seems quite indifferent to as far as her eldest daughter is concerned. What are Bristol's opportunities? In addition to impending parenthood, has the family discussed how she might continue her education? Has she ever held paying employment and what sort of a resume could she present to a potential employer? In the absence of such brainstorming, it's much more likely Bristol Palin will become a statistic, of the type that causes all Americans concern, than follow in her mother's trail blazing footsteps.
0
sailwind
The difference between a liberal and a conservative.
She did it on her own.
Liberals think they know how best to be the best parents for your kids........
Thank you Betzee for your concern for Bristol Palin.
0
SushiSake3
More good news for patriotic Americans who love their country -
Now we have a top Republican laying into mccain -
Powell drops the hammer on McCain
Speaking with neither anger nor malice, Powell’s words nonetheless fall like hammer blows on McCain.
“I found that he was a little unsure as to [how to] deal with the economic problems that we were having, and almost every day there was a different approach to the problem,” Powell says of McCain.
And that is a concern, Powell says, because McCain doesn’t seem to have a “complete grasp” of our economic difficulties.
Sarah Palin?
“I don’t believe she’s ready to be president of the United States, which is the job of the vice president,” Powell says. “And so that raised some question in my mind as to the judgment that Sen. McCain made.”
You keeping score? McCain doesn’t understand the economic crisis, is erratic, is trying to foist an unqualified vice president on the nation and has shown questionable judgment.
Can it get worse? It gets worse.
Powell, who is of the same generation as McCain (Powell is a year younger), of the same party and of the same military background, criticizes McCain for his negative campaigning, for being “narrow,” and for aiding and abetting the “rightward shift” in Republican politics.
**Source: **www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14783.html
0
SushiSake3
On Sunday, Fox News host Chris Wallace asked John McCain how he would feel if he lost the presidential race to Barack Obama:
"Oh, sure,'' Mr. McCain said. " I mean, I don't dwell on it. But, look, I've a wonderful life. I have to go back and live in Arizona."
Source: www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/20/john-mccain-on-losing-ton136101.html
I think most patriotic Americans think it would be better if sen. mccain left for a quiet retirement in Arizona right about now.
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goodDonkey
Helter_Skelter
Vitriolic words indeed. Next he will be saying that men that disagree with him are feminized. Oh, yeah he already crossed that bridge.
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Betzee
Indeed. In contrast to GWB or Hillary Clinton.
It's actually concern for my pocketbook. A life on the dole is looming large here.
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goodDonkey
Spider said:
What I'd really like to see is a black (very black not mixed-race), lesbian, woman who comes out and admits she don't believe in God. When that person gets the nomination I'll begin to feel better about the USA as a country.
Truer words were never spoken. For me at least; because I want all lines of division erased. As long as she isn't a Republican.
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sailwind
Yeah Right, Betzee your now a Conservative worried about your money supporting somebody elses kid.........No sell you have a posting history that has never given anybody a reason to think your are serious about that,
Gooddonkey...You know that have pretty much made the line drawn as far as who stands on your division border? Not really a strong argument about divisions erased if you ask me.
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Betzee
Sailwind,
FYI:
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem
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SezWho2
sailwind,
I didn't see the part where Betzee expressed a concern about supporting someone else's child. I saw an expression of concern regarding Palin's judgment as reflected in her parenting. And I saw a concern for the purse.
The way I thought the two were related was that if Palin has bad judgment in one area she might also have it in another. Or, expressed another way, this is no time to be putting wide-eyed ideologues into office that can only cleave to doctrines which have failed us and are now failing us.
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coulrophobic
Wow.
NY Times. CBS News.
There's a couple of disinterested players, eh.
0
coulrophobic
"
."
She can always become a 'community organizer'...
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goodDonkey
sailwind
Not much for satire, huh, sailwind?
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Betzee
You mean for unwed mothers who discover there are no resources to help them juggle the multiple responsibilities others encouraged them to take on? Yeah, that would be something she could do.
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sailwind
Betzee
FYI
An argument that brings in a totally innocent bystander to prove their point is known in latin as Bristolis Palinisis. Thought I'd help in your refute of my points.
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coulrophobic
"You mean for unwed mothers who discover there are no resources to help them juggle the multiple responsibilities others encouraged them to take on? "
What outrages your thoroughly predictable 'liberal' pieties the most - her decision to wed, an 18 y.o. carrying her child to term, or the existence of even a single independent family raising strong, independent children?
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SezWho2
coulrophobic,
Only Betzee can answer for Betzee. As for me, if those are my only choices I'd say that an 18-year-old carrying her child to term most outrages me. But then I would also say that of George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and Martin Van Buren, Jefferson most outrages me.
What most outrages me about Palin's child--and even that not much--is Palin. I don't think teen-age pregnancy is immoral. It's going to happen. However, I don't know that the Palin family raises strong, independent children. And to use Palin's own argument, I think America deserves to know the whole story. Did her daughter really, really want to keep the child? Or has she been pressured into it? This should always have been the daughter's choice and we need to know that the mother has not been too concerned for her own career to help her daughter through this.
And, of course, Jefferson is not the most outrageous president either.
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sailwind
goodDonkey
Touche!..... I also wanted to say to you on another thread but I didn't have a chance, thank you for your kind words about all us just being dots on a screen and about your father being a Conservative and you being of a liberal bent and of the conflicts that you have had between you.
I wanted to pass that on to you and also that even though I find most of your positions totally at odds with mine I have total respect as to how you have come to them.
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sailwind
No we don't Sez....It's now of our damn business that line should never be crossed just out of common decency.
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sailwind
Typo should be none instead of now.....apologies got mad when I typed my first response.
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goodDonkey
sailwind
I began composing my last comment long before your kind words. It would not have been the comment I would have wanted to follow if I had my druthers. I want to unconditionally thank you; believe it or not words like that mean a lot to me. I am in the process of learning to respect those who differ from me on here. I was wounded bad by the 2000 election through nobody's fault by my own. I do respect you and others but it is a level I hope to increase while we are still thoroughly engaged. I really think it does everybody good to get over their self and accept others; it is much easier for me to say that than to carry out in ordinary life. I typed some very nice comments that were 4.5 times as long as the part before this but I knew it would be removed. I did save it though in case many of us ever get into the habit of engaging on a forum or something.
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adaydream
Voter Fraud already being reported. < :-)
http://www.sundaygazettemail.com/News/200810180251
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Betzee
That’s not really an issue I am interested in delving into. I accept Bristol Palin absorbed her parents’ values, as most kids do, and wanted to bring this child into the world. (Though it was a long time ago, I also remember what it’s like to be a teenage girl.)
What I question is Sarah Palin’s judgment, which gives an indication of the decision-making processes she would apply as VP, in thinking marriage is the gateway to raising independent children. Her own sister’s situation, the one who was married to the trooper, is evidence that simply getting married doesn’t mean “happily ever after.”
Her daughter Bristol, now a legal adult competent to make her own decisions, would nonetheless not be able to marry the father of her unborn child without seeking public assistance to pay for the medical expenses. (Given that neither she nor her fiancé have jobs, this is a safe assumption).
Soooo, unless someone is willing to purchase an insurance policy for the young couple as a wedding gift that’s what it will come down to frankly. If you can’t even finance your own health insurance, how are you in a position to raise a child until he/she reaches adulthood? The decision in a case like this to pursue an open adoption would both reflect a respect for life and an awareness of the responsibilities which go with bringing a child into the world.
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Helter_Skelter
Betzee,
How about just simply saying that you don't like Christian values. You could save yourself an awful lot of writing time.
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RomeoRamenII
In obama's home state even dead goldfish are allowed to vote:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1120apvoterregistration_goldfish.html?source=mypi
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Helter_Skelter
Of course, adaydream finds some obscure article about six cases where votes "switched" to McCain, most likely due to voter error. Yet he ignores the massive voter fraud committed by ACORN, with the FBI investigating hundreds of thousands of fraudulent voter registrations.
Keep it up adaydream. Your posts always give me a chuckle. < :-)
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adaydream
Gotta start somwewhere. < :-)
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SezWho2
sailwind,
Tongue in cheek. Tongue in cheek. If we need more details about Obama's relationship with Ayers--as Palin says we do--to test whether he is really a loyal American, we may as well ask for more details about "Bristol's decision" to carry her child to term.
There has not been in this election any particular line for common decency and I don't think we can pretend to draw one now. We don't get to now draw a circle around family and say, "Don't go there". If religion is character, if a person's association is character and if a person's wife's comments are character, then family is character too.
I agree with Betzee that it's an issue that I really don't want to get into. (But I disagree that we can assume that children absorb their parent's values.) However, I strongly disagree that it's a family matter. It's the decision of the person who must carry the child to term. I don't know about Alaska and parents there may be within their legal rights to prevent abortion, but that doesn't make it morally right for them to do so. And people have just as much right to know whether Palin has unduly influenced her daughter's decision as they do to know, after all this time, whether Ayers has unduly influenced Obama.
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SezWho2
Helter Skelter,
I don't think this has anything to do with Christian values. In fact there are only two Christian values--to love God and to love your neighbor as yourself. Christians disagree as to the ramifications of these values.
This is about secular decisions--whether they are sound or not and whether they promote what is beneficial for people in a secular society.
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Helter_Skelter
SezWho,
Ah yes, the religion of secularism. The secularists know what's "beneficial for people". Actually, I've found secularists to be some of the most intolerant and extreme in imposing their value system on others. Secularism shouldn't be viewed as anything but an ideological sect that wants to impose its beliefs on those who seek to preserve their, and their nation's, religious heritage.
I wish secularists would just once own up to their disdain for religion rather than their faux concern about what's best for society.
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Nessie
Or two. Or none. These days, you never know.
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Nessie
Thanks for asking, Sarge. No matter who said it, I'd want to know the exact words and the context.
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Nessie
There are religious secularists, Helter. They differ from non-secularist fundies in recognizing that separation of church and state are in the interests of both the church and the state. Take a gander at the Middle East to see why secularists believe this.
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Nessie
I would add that it's about a disdain for rationality, which relates to religious doctrine.
McCain went for anti-intellectualism, but he overshot the mark and ended up with an intellectually dubious anti-rationalist as VP candidate -- perhaps not surprising, considering McCain's own modest intellectual gifts.
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jwills79
Very few people have logically argued the reasons for McCain except they don't like Obama(majority White voters). Which is usually based on race or mistruths/lies. Which is why he (McCain) is losing in the polls. There is not much to say about him. He is descent guy like Obama, but you can't really see that. Especially since he sold his "Soul to RNC." It isn't the media's fault so much as his bad decisions. Oh, he is a patriot. So are many others but that doesn't mean you should be President. Like Powell said, these recent events were like tests to see what they are made of. McCain's actions and decisions show he is not the best choice for these times. Many bad decisions!!!!!!
I also dislike his choice of Palin because she a big liar/hypocrite and his greatest weakness. She lies under the assumption that most people are basically ignorant. Being White is Right/American. How can you be Pro-America but your husband was member of a Secessionist Party? She may draw those types (ill-informed)to the rallys but alienates the vast majority. Divide and Conquer. She contradicts him in so many ways and is publicly disagreeing in the media now. Country first? It's more like political career first! The fact she has been brought to the public stage means we might be hearing more of her in the future. I hope she doesn't become VP or Pres. Please go back to Alaska because you bring nothing positive to the table! Or screw up big time to send her career down the tubes. Even better idea become a better human being.
Obama08'
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jwills79
Helter Skelter,
What about the guy in California who was arrested for voter fraud? He told people they were signing a petition but was registering them as Republicans. He works for the RNC. Signed up reportedly 50,000 nationawide.
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Nessie
Hitchens goes after Palin, after first giving her the benefit of the doubt.
http://www.slate.com/id/2202642/
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sailwind
Nessie
Another interesting article from Slate on Palin.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2007/08/13/alaska/index1.html
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sailwind
Oh Ness,
By the way the author of my link.
About the writer Benjamin Wallace-Wells writes about national affairs for Rolling Stone.
Of all people and the discussions we have had lately I think we can both appreciate the irony here, I sure did when I finished the article and it caught my eye as to who wrote it.
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Betzee
Sailwind,
Signing on as McCain's VP, campaigning on a platform of cutting government waste, opened the door to see if Governor Palin really practices what she has preached.
Among other revelations which may cut into her approval ratings, she asked to be reimbursed for her children's' travel expenses, claiming they had been invited to various gatherings and functions. In fact the word came back from, among other sources, a Governor's convention in Philadelphia, they were most certainly not invited and had to be accommodated.
I don't know who's picking up the tab for her two school-age daughters to accompany her on the campaign trail. At the risk of being branded a liberal trying to impose my values on others I nonetheless want to ask, why are school age kids not in school?
ANCHORAGE, ALASKA — Gov. Sarah Palin charged the state for her children to travel with her, including to events where they were not invited, and later amended expense reports to specify that they were on official business.
The charges included costs for hotel and commercial flights for three daughters to join Palin to watch their father in a snowmobile race, and a trip to New York, where the governor attended a five-hour conference and stayed with 17-year-old Bristol for five days and four nights in a luxury hotel....
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/politics/6071384.html
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goodDonkey
Helter_Skelter said:
I am a secular humanist. Please look at my posts to see how tolerant I am of others. Then look at Helter_Skelter's posts. I accept just about anyone's differences. I am not very accepting of those who try to impose their values, ideology or practices onto others. I have Christian friends who I warmly encourage to keep up their faith. It brings them joy and I am glad that it does. Two of my friends are deeply religious Christians and I enjoy when they mention their faith because it not only seems to bring them joy but strength and hope. Also they don't push their religion on me. One friend brings his Christian faith up consistently and I enjoy hearing him every single time and he is devout. He gets up early every morning of his life to pray and study. He is very nonjudgmental. I also enjoy that both sailwind and Taka have made expressions of faith in he past.
I do feel that the freedom of religion should be extended to me. I feel I should have the right to my own beliefs. It seems some believe that freedom of religion should only apply to those who have a religion. But they are the minority, in the case of Christians they seem to be the ones who criticize Muslims constantly. I am not particularly in favor of Muslims that practice cutting off people's heads, hanging or stoning for people's sexual behavior or other less than stellar crimes. But I will vigorously defend Muslims because I have known many and they were not of the fundamentalist variety. There are those who demonize them on JT. But usually the same people criticize a host of people for their differences.
So is Helter saying I don't care about society? I don't want what is best for my country. I suppose because I am agnostic that I am evil. I suppose that some would demonize me and say I lack moral, principles and ethics. The worst would have you believe I am an agent of Satan. I do not doubt many of the conservatives, I have ran across on these threads of JT , have genuine values and want what is best for this country; I do not believe they any of them share Helter's views. We differ on what is best. There are quite a few of them that would say that secularists want to impose their ideas on others. Some do. I would say some Christians want to impose their ideas on others. That is a far cry from saying that a secular humanist like myself is not genuine in my concerns. In my opinion I think there are those who feel they have cornered the market on faith. You will often hear the argument that this is a Christian nation from them.
I have a friend who is so antagonistic toward people of faith. I just want to say "Dude, if you don't believe in god why should you care if others do?" He would say that religion is for weak and stupid people and frankly I find it rather offensive on both counts. I know intelligent Christians. Now I do question people's intelligence when I am debating evolution. I know many people that find evolution compatible with Christianity. Others who don't are fine with me but in a discussion I have to take the position of empirical evidence and it boils down to whether you believe we can or can't necessarily understand technical information about origins of celestial objects, the nature of physical structures of matter and the origin of living entities. But I would prefer, if we are acquaintances, we just don't waste each others time on a matter like that when nobody's mind is going to change one iota. The atheist friend creates an equivalence of religious dogma in his fervor to convert the faithful. I guess we need a new label for such people; maybe we can call him a fundamentalist atheist. ha ha. I also know a good side of him so I will continue to call him a friend. I brought him up as an example because I don't deny that there are secularists who want to impose their ideology on others. I am not one of them and find it offensive that someone should want to coax others into believing that I have a disdain for religion, that my concerns for society are not valid, that I am intolerant and that I am imposing my value system on others.
I do want my political leaders to enact laws that represent my values. I do realize that some of my values will inevitably be imposed on others when I support things like a ban on official school prayer. But I have a vast value system and I would not want it imposed on others. That would indeed take away their rights. So in my prioritized values I set the freedom of religion and freedom of differences at the top. I am able to do this with ease because also at the top is toleration.
I believe that Obama is a Christian. I am fine with that. I believe Obama represents a government which is much more tolerant of people's differences.. That is one reason Democrats find it hard to get voters to coalesce around the party's ideology. One party is saying their ideas are the most important. Democrats are saying your most sacred ideas are not that important in our brand of politics. What is important is that everyone is allowed to have their own sacred ideas and share them with others who feel the same. The Democrats are the ones who pushed Civil Rights legislation through with Johnson as president; there were some separate drinking fountains still at that time. That represents to me a party that learned to recognize differences of the citizens from their own mono characteristics as legislators and as president. I personally believe a kid should pray if he or she wants to at school; but at a personal level and not during class time (kids do get breaks). Yes he or she faces much more ridicule if they do that but isn't that what faith is all about.
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Nessie
Good stuff from Betzee and Donkey.
And thanks for the post, Sail, which Betzee addressed. I'll just chime in.
I've given credit to Palin for her successes at cutting government, even when she's grieveously misrepresented those successes. (She has a Bridge to Nowhere to sell me? I ain't in the market.) But -- you knew there was one coming -- her tax improprieties, abuses of power and disdain for the due process destroy her credentials as a respectable small government conservative.
Cutting down on Alaska's excesses? More like replacing them with excesses of her own.
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Helter_Skelter
goodDonkey
I have. And you are just as intolerant of "NeoCons" and ridicule Palin and McCain and me as much as anyone else. It's perfectly acceptable, but don't try and take the high road here.
Unless you agree with them of course. A decade ago I was a liberal and a secularist and would have posted exactly what you wrote (though about a quarter the length). But I realized that I was imposing my secular beliefs on a nation that was founded by Christians, is predominately Christian, and which Christian values play an integral part of the nation's history, culture, and moral code. I'm not even Christian, but share many of these Christians values that define America.
So this goes far beyond simply the issue of separation of church and state. It goes to the heart of what America is. It's really the secularists who want to redefine America, impose their beliefs on this country. The term "secular humanist" sounds warm and fuzzy and relatively benign, but it's deceiving because it's just another ideology with its intolerance and extremism. If I wanted to live in a secular society, I'd move to the EU. But I don't, and will continue to challenge those who want to turn the US into a secular nation.
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Betzee
Today it was revealed that Sarah Palin had been outfitted with USD 150,000 worth of clothing since becoming McCian's running mate (charged on the Republican National Committee credit card).
Now, a girl’s gotta look good, no question about that. The thing is, few people in small town America shop at Needless Mark-Up or Saks Fifth Avenue, which have no outlets on Main Street, where the tab for a single shopping spree hit 70,000. I would expect Sarah Palin to receive the same degree of ridicule as John Edwards, another candidate claiming to represent the average Joe (or Hockey Mom), did after he got his USD 400 hair-cut.
If she doesn’t, well he may be able to claim sexism. Anyways, even if he went to that barber every week, it will still take him more than seven years to run up a tab equivalent to what she's spend on threads since getting the VP nod. Don’t think this revelation will help the RNC collect donations.
Having spent last weekend in a small, dusty desert town I wasn’t surprised to see most residents favored off-the-rack Wal-Mart. Far from viewing me as some unpatriotic city slicker, everyone was extremely friendly. Perhaps it helped that I tromped around in drug-store bought sandals and casual attire. The shop-keeper from whom I bought a painting of the local church couldn’t have cared less that I don’t attend church. Rather he seemed quite appreciative I paid in cash rather than plastic to enable him to avoid having the credit card company take a percentage of the sale. Hey, spread the wealth around right?
I’m so proud of my compatriots for rejecting labels like "liberal" thrown around in an effort to divide and conquer by stifling debate rather than encouraging it. This Rovian innovation doesn’t seem to be working for the Republicans this time around.
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SezWho2
Helter Skelter,
It seems to me that you are talking about atheists rather than secularists. There is nothing to prevent a proponent of secular society from believing in God.
I want a moral society. I do not want a religious one. I would greatly prefer that issues like abortion be argued on the basis of what is good for the society and for its people rather than upon what God wants.
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Helter_Skelter
I see. So religion has no morals. Geez, whatever.
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Helter_Skelter
Religions have morals to ensure people have morals.
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goodDonkey
Helter_Skelter said:
Each person or organization you list is one in which I have attacked their ideology primarily. I can admit that I have made personal attacks, sometimes jokingly and sometimes just to be in another posters face. I don't care about a person's race, creed, ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, gender, sexual identity as it relates to gender, nationality or age. Not only should we not discriminate based on these characteristics but we need to learn to be tolerant of others differences in these areas.
Helter_Skelter has said everything I hoped he would. It is clear he wants others to take on his ideas. I wanted to make it clear that a secular humanist tends to be an agnostic and I did not mean to infer that other secularists did not believe in a deity. In fact in Turkey secularists takes on its true meaning of taking a position against theocracy. In America there are different applications so I try to make it clear that a secularist may be just for less presence of religion in government. I am a secular humanist and that entails certain beliefs. I encourage people to keep their spiritual beliefs. It does me absolutely no good for people to change their belief system based on what I say I think. If someone makes changes in their faith I think they should do it from their heart.
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Helter_Skelter
TJrandom
Yet you have don't seem to have a problem with controlling our society with your set of morals. Murdering unborn babies, changing the very definition of marriage, promoting free sex, etc. What makes you think I want to be forced to live in a society that's controlled by your moral code?
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Good_Jorb
Are not laws set by an elected president and an elected congress in the US? Assumable when you say "your moral code" you mean to say the moral code that is generally accepted as representing the wishes of the majority of Americans? Everyone is forced to live in a society by a certian set of "Moral Codes", it is common sense, some personal freedoms and beliefs are sacrificed to create a functioning society. Personally I think I should be able to drive in the center of the road, as playing chicken with on coming cars would add a much need thrill to the old daily commute but thankfully I am not aloud.
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Helter_Skelter
goodDonkey
Just like you.
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SezWho2
Helter Skelter,
False conclusion.
To want a moral society rather than a religious one does not imply that religions have no moral framework. What it implies is that the moral decisions will be made by people and not by what some people say that God has already determined.
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