Obama criticizes McCain for 'naive' foreign policy
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0
SezWho2
Well, at least he didn't accuse Obama of not understanding the reality that we don't have 57 states. Still, McCain is indulging in vapid rhetoric. You'd have to be fairly removed from the world to believe that America does not have enemies. Up to now, a majority of Democratic voters, a majority of declared superdelegates, a majority of states and a majority of dollars seem to be willing to underwrite the notion that Obama is not removed.
My once-solid vote for Obama is wavering now--but it's not because of foreign policy. It's because of that flag lapel pin and his new-found invocations to God and the blessing of America. Obama's major thrust has been that he wants to change the political culture in America. I tend to think that by capitulating--or by seeming to capitulate--on these points he has shown himself to be conducting politics as usual.
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Betzee
The thing is, once Obama put that flag pin on he tacitly conceded he needed to play the Republican’s game of “capture the flag.” Once you agree to let someone else define the rules of the game, you are at a big disadvantage. And that game has nothing to do with patriotism, traditionally defined as self-sacrifice for the good of the group.
Many of those sporting flag pins don’t have anything like that on the resume of course. Rather the flag pin conveys what Kim Il- Sung pins, mandatory for North Koreans convey, namely I’m marching in lockstep with my government.
As Americans, Mark Twain’s definition of patriotism is more appropriate, “Support you country all the time and your government when it deserves it.” Obama should campaign on making Americans proud of their government. It shouldn't be too difficult when over 70 percent of the American people think we're on the wrong track.
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skipthesong
“Support you country all the time and your government when it deserves it.” but how does one determine when they do and when they don't? I hate the US government, all its members, dem and republ/black&white.....
Watch Jericho, I think we need that.
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SuperLib
Betzee, I don't think wearing a flag pin makes you like a North Korean paying your respects to the Dear Leader. That's a pretty crude comparison.
Sez, I know what you're saying, but there's really no good way for Obama to win that battle. Sometimes the perception game is too much of a reality to try to change on your own and by wearing the pin he makes it a non-issue. It's like some child safety laws. Some people are pushing for getting seatbelts on school buses. The data just isn't there to support the conclusion that the increase in safety is worth the cost (especially in a world of limited resources), but if you're a politician and you go up against the law you're immediately painted as someone who doesn't care about child safety. So far there's been no way to really give a response to save yourself from that criticism....so the laws get passed. I think it has more to do with the inability to give a response in a way that people will understand. I mostly give Obama a pass on this because fighting against it will create a loss on his part just because of the perception game.
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SezWho2
SuperLib,
I mostly agree with you. However, I don't think Obama had to fight against it. I think he just had to be consistent.
I also mostly agree with Betzee, except I don't think "capture the flag" is a Republican game. (At least, if it ever was, it no longer is.) I think its the American political game in which we substitute symbols for meaningful discourse.
Of course, I would never do that. ;-)
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skipthesong
While we all could say what should be, could be, I think until Obama or even McCain or anyone are in the president's seat, then we can what is the best methods..
The problem we are going to have if Obama, which I think he is, gets the nom is that it is going to be very hard to criticize him without having backlash.
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adaydream
I'm waiting to see the first Obama VS McCain debate.
The republicans can just as well focus on Barack and forget about Hillary. And their attack squads are preparing now and Barack is in their sights.
It's been a very clean election season so far. That's about to end.
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Madverts
Naive is saying the war will be "won" in 2013.
McCain is suffering from senile dementia.
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Betzee
So go with the flow? You're wrong; by putting on that pin Obama makes it harder for anyone else in public life to claim you can be a patriot in the absence of a flag pin. That, in effect, becomes the litmus test in lieu of the higher standard the once prevailed, namely self-sacrifice for the good of the group. Willing to make sacrifices requires one to think through the issues before making such a commitment, whereas putting on a pin does not.
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SuperLib
That pin is a situation that Obama cannot win. If he fights it he will lose votes, period. It's just not worth it.
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Madverts
But why can a simple pin make so much who-har? We aresupposed to be talking about adults here.
It really is childish, the shrieky run-up to American elections.
It reminds me of the "my dad's car is faster than yours" at primary school.
0
Sarge
I think there's an excellent chance U.S. troops will be able to leave Iraq by 2013 if Obama doesn't win the presidency and screw everything up.
"I'm waiting to see the first Obama vs McCain debate"
Obama: I'll act if al-Qaida is forming a base in Iraq.
McCain: I have some news. Al-Qaida is in Iraq. It's called al-Qaida in Iraq.
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Betzee
So he should do whatever it takes to get votes? Sorry, that doesn't make him an attractive candidate to me. Plus, his opponents will use his flip-flop to make him look weak. He caved and therefore he can't be trusted.
I've flipped the order in the paragraphs of this paste-in extracted from a longer article. At the risk of being branded unpatriotic, I think the Europeans have a mind-set less vulnerable to demagogery (represented in an extreme form by North Korea) which we risk by going down this path:
The manufactured controversies over flag pins is part of the same problem, but it takes matters a step further because it fetishizes the pin itself over and above the already superficial colors and imagery designed to invoke feelings of patriotism. I could understand a little if they were a long-standing tradition, but they only came to the fore in the aftermath of September 11. Now, no matter how much one says they are patriotic, and no matter how unsubtle the patriotic appeals are in campaign materials, the absence of tiny piece of metal made in China suddenly becomes the most important sign of whether a candidate is really patriotic or not.
This sort of behavior isn't the norm. Political parties in Germany, for example, have their own signature colors and use them in their advertising and propaganda materials. No one feels any need to emblazon the German flag all over their posters, and I don't think you'll find such behavior in other European nations. No one questions the general patriotic feelings of political candidates — they differ on what they think is best for their country, not in wanting the best for their country....
http://www.alternet.org/blogs/peek/82934/
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Betzee
We got into Iraq because anyone who challenged the evidence that Saddam's WMD posed an "imminent threat" to the security of the US and our allies had their patriotism questioned. Now McCain, in tossing out 2013, seems to be engaging exactly what war supporters have claimed is advocating a "surrender date."
Maybe he's just pandering to public opinion to get votes. The American public has no interest in hanging around. We may defeat Al Qaeda in Iraq but the Al Qaeda which attacked us is alive and well in Afghanistan and northern Pakistan.
0
lipscombe
because he went to bed already or just doesnt like you
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SuperLib
So what? There are two forces at work here, both radical. One side is comprised of blind patriots who think wearing a pin means something, the other side is comprised of self-loathing Americans who hate American patriotism. The rest of us are just caught in the middle.
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super delegate
Obama's flag pin has 57 stars.
He has transcended the problem, mmmkay?
0
nonacnon
I hope he doesn't mean this but I guess he has to as the frame work of the political reality in US is rather narrow and counter productive. Mc Cain ranting on about the magical date 2013, is very credible. We must stay in Iraq. We must stay and fight al Qaida and turn our country into bankrrupcy.
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Zaphod
Obama talks about "naive"?? This from the guy who declared that he wants to withdraw all troops from Iraq but move them right back in after Al Quaida sets up shop there again, in other words immediately --- creating the most massive and wasteful military operation in history?? The guy who wants to to "talk" to Ahmedinejad without precondition, and in the next sentence declares he wants to bomb Northern Pakistan unilaterally? This guy calls others "naive"? That is truly mind-boggling.
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Everton2
Republicans believe that they have somehow cornered the market on patriotism. It is just absurd to think that Senator Obama's allegiance to America can be questioned based on whether he chooses to wear or not to wear a pin. This notion of appeasement if you talk to your enemies is no different from the approach that Ronald Regan took towards the Soviet Union during the cold war and won. The current policies toward Iran and other rogue states are not working and common sense is suggesting that we try another approach.
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rjdsr
Obama falls right in with the Neville Chamberlain mold of appeasement. He has no chance when the american voters know they need a strong President.
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UnagiDon
Negotiating with the Iranians? If memory serves, wasn't he last president who did that a Republican, who also negotiated nuclear arms reductions with those pesky Soviets?
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