Obama signs massive economic stimulus bill
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0
hereandthere
On Wednesday he moves to Arizona for the unveiling of a program to help millions of homeowners fend off home mortgage foreclosures.
are these the same people who should not have gotten the mortgage in the first place?
0
adaydream
They might be the millions that have lost their jobs because they went to China or India. < :-)
0
Molenir
Saying change change, while doing nothing at all. Hooray for Obama. No, I can't say doing nothing at all. He did sign this monstrous peice of legislation. Had it been Bush pushing this, everyone here would be hating on it. Instead we get idiots who apparently like the people who voted in favor of it, haven't bothered to read the bill, each saying how great and wonderful this is. Its going to do nothing to help the economy, and quite a bit to drag it down.
0
USAFdude
Then, by all means, enlighten us with your in-depth analysis of the bill, seeing that you've obviously read and re-read all of it. LOL!
0
SushiSake3
Gotta love it how the fringe Right throw around the word 'monstrous' to describe a stimulus package that could well save the jobs of their family and friends back home.
The Right needs to get a grip and step out of the mindset that they need to destroy America, something they have been par excellence at over the last 8 years.
0
SushiSake3
Molenir, I take it you are a Republican [ if not, stop reading this post.]
Q: How many times did you post protesting against bush's overspending in the past?
Ditto for other Republicans/Conservatives.
0
sailwind
Sushi,
The stock market dropped 297 bloody points today. That is the only REAL vote that counts on what people really think of this 'stimilus' plan.
I won't tell you exactly how much more poorer I am today as I watch about another 3 percent of my life savings vanish as the market keeps tanking.
Good Job....Obama, you were suppose to get economy moving and people investing again, instead of all us waiting for a bloody bailout that we put on the next generations credit card.
Man, we should have voted in McCain. I would bet the ranch any economic recovery plan he would have endorsed the market would have reacted POSITIVELY to instead of this continued nightmare.
0
SushiSake3
Sail, I can't help notice you - like other Republicans/conservatives on JT - heap blame on the bandaid being applied by President Obama while completely neglecting to look at the gaping head wound caused by the previous president.
"I won't tell you exactly how much more poorer I am today as I watch about another 3 percent of my life savings."
The use of the word 'another' is important here.
"Man, we should have voted in McCain. I would bet the ranch any economic recovery plan he would have endorsed the market would have reacted POSITIVELY to instead of this continued nightmare."
McCain was the guy who said 'the economy is strong' the day it fell out from under him. Do you honestly think he would have been better than President Obama?
McCain was clueless and would likely have continued bush policies. Tax cuts for the rich, more defence spending on other countries instead of spending at home like President Obama is doing.
Oh, and where did that first $350 billion of the first bailout go? Does anyone know?
Look, I'm not admitting the Democrat's plan is perfect, what I'm saying is that 8 years of bush & co's policies, 2 dumb incredibly expensive wars (sayonara $2-3 trillion) and successfully keeping their eye off the ball are largely behind this meltdown.
Deciding to heap blame on President Obama, who has only been in office for 3 weeks - I think is a bit rich.
0
jbro888
there are three groups.
Neocons, Republicans, Democrats.
The last 8 years were not of the later two groups
0
SushiSake3
ib888, are you saying the Republicans weren't in power between 2000-2008?
0
skipthesong
Q: How many times did you post protesting against bush's overspending in the past?" NOt relevent. Just because there were screw ups before does not give auto approval. That is one of the major problems with people like you.
Most of the singers of this bill did not, I repeat DID NOT read the bill through and through - they didn't need nor want to as they were expected to sign it. Any dem who opposed it basically committed political suicide.
The stock market dropped 297 bloody points today. That is the only REAL vote that counts on what people really think of this 'stimilus' plan.
I won't tell you exactly how much more poorer I am today as I watch about another 3 percent of my life savings vanish as the market keeps tanking." They don't get that. These are people who expect the government to be in every part of our lives. Anyone who makes money for themselves is considered dirt at the moment.
AF Dude, I take it you are one of those base dwellers with a large family of commissary cows who would have benefitted either way. Show me one military person who read this bill front to back. Even your leaders didn't do that, they have had staff do that and that included high school volunteers.
Had it been Bush pushing this, everyone here would be hating on it" That is how it works. The repubs and dems have taught us to be like that.
Well, if you are in LA, hope you have fun walking your dog in that new multi million dollar leashless dog park while, as adaydream puts it "might be the millions that have lost their jobs because they went to China or India." And how much of that park has American made items?
0
nisegaijin
i don't there was that much pork in the entire history of the US. Anybody care for tonkatsu?
0
SushiSake3
Sail, Republicans and their conservative supporters have only themselves to blame if they are feeling the heat from this financial meltdown.
Where was their calls for more fiscal responsibility as the bush adminstration threw untold billions away on the Iraq war, and gave billions to the rich through tax breaks??
There was barely a squeak.
It's a bit late to start complaining now if you (generally speaking) supported the previous administration.
The Democrat's stimulus, which I admit again is not perfect, is better than nothing, and while yes, some money is going towards electric golf carts and a Maglev, there is a lot of money that is going to be spent IN AMERICA and benefit AMERICANS. not in foreign countries benefitting foreigners, as the last adminstration did.
Add to that, there is a substantial move towards weaning America off foreign oil, something that can only be good.
0
Altria
Man, the Dow fell 4% today.
0
Helter_Skelter
Government does not create wealth. I wonder if anyone in Washington is even familiar with this basic principle?
0
skipthesong
Where was their calls for more fiscal responsibility as the bush adminstration threw untold billions away on the Iraq war, and gave billions to the rich through tax breaks??" Oh, and who is there supposedly providing such responsibility? Where Bush screwed up on that was NOT getting rid of those people appointed during the Clinton years and NOT doing away with the idea that the American Dream is a right!
The Democrat's stimulus, which I admit again is not perfect, is better than nothing," You mean we allow politicians to make untold millions of dollars a year plus fringe benefits to come up with only a "its not a perfect plan but its better than nothing"? and while yes, some money is going towards electric golf carts (No, not some - a lot) and a Maglev, there is a lot of money that is going to be spent IN AMERICA and benefit AMERICANS. not in foreign countries benefitting foreigners, as the last adminstration did." And who is going to be doing that construction work on those roads and bridges?
Add to that, there is a substantial move towards weaning America off foreign oil, something that can only be good" Yes good for me. However, who pushed the US off its own oil and forced the government to get oil from foreign countries? Now remember, alternative energy is still very new and much of it is not proven.
Government does not create wealth. I wonder if anyone in Washington is even familiar with this basic principle?" It creates wealth if you get yourself elected!
Man, the Dow fell 4% today". I just told you, people who invest their money, try to make money for themselves are now considered evil.
0
Betzee
It's interesting, while Congressional Republicans decried the stimulus as "socialism" GOP Governors are very happy it has been passed. I know mine is; Arnie has had to impose rolling furloughs ("if it's Friday the DMZ is closed") on government offices and hand out pink slips. IOUs instead of checks are already being discussed. Critical infrastructure porjects have also been halted.
In some ways, I look at California as a microcosm for the nation. No state has been harder hit by the sub-prime mortgage crisis, in particular Orange County which is associated with Goldwater Republicanism. (As a liberal, I can't resist chuckling.) During the bubble, state and local governments raked in property tax revenue from all these new and upgraded homes. Now that property prices have plunged, the state coffers have run dry and residents need services.
The budget shortfall has been an enduring phenomenon as long as I have lived here. It seems most residents want long prison terms for convicts as well as increased investment in children and care for the elderly, big budget items for the state. But, wonders never cease, they don't want to pay for it. Many people applied this "philosophy" to their personal lives, racking up high levels of credit card and other types of debt which they are now unable to service.
0
proxy
I would not be surprised if the DOW bottomed out at 5000 but don't blame Obama, blame the people that inflated the economy after the tech bubble instead of letting the economy go through a normal recession at that time to clear out the dead wood. A recession delayed, is a depression earned.
0
smithinjapan
"Had it been Bush pushing this, everyone here would be hating on it. Instead we get idiots who apparently like the people who voted in favor of it, haven't bothered to read the bill, each saying how great and wonderful this is."
Kind of like the Patriot Act, which no one read before rushing it through and helping to erode human rights world-wide. But hey, Molenir, as Sushisake pointed out, go ahead and tell us all about it!
sailwind: Sorry for the drop in stocks, etc., but can you tell us, please how much, in total, they fell under your previous president? Or are you just going to blame the entire current situation on Obama?
It is rather humorous to see the rightists come on here and try pinning the blame for the economy on Obama. He has just signed a bill in place that will help you, your families, and the country as a whole. If you think it's going to happen over night or in the next week you're foolish. If you think McCain would have done anything better your even MORE foolish.
Good job, Obama.
0
Betzee
In a democracy, recessions become politically unaffordable to those in power. You're not gonna be reelected if the employment rate creeps up.
0
TheQuestion
And so we put another nail in the coffen of successful american businesses by keeping poorly managed floundering businesses on the IV drip of life. This isn't saving american business its wholesale slaughter of small business in favor of large government controlled corps.
How many people were around when the Imperial mortgage company went under? My grandparents thought they were going to be kicked out of their house, but guess what? Another bank bought the mortgage. Thats exactly what would have happened if Fannie and Freddie had gone under.
Our economy is set up to reward innovation and punish weakness. It sounds brutal and it is, our system isn't ment to guarantee success, it't ment to guarantee a chance to compete. If you invest you make a gamble, if you take out a mortgage you make a gamble, if you start a business you make a gamble and thats the way it should be. And companies like the failing banks and the auto companies are weak.
Every man and woman should be given the option at the age of 18 if they want to pay into social systems or be left on their own to pay only a set income tax and sales tax. I would be all over that in a second, I don't want half asked goverment healthcare, I don't want social security, I don't want any part of it. People could call me greedy or selfish but at least I would be in control of my own finances and my own future, whether that be a resounding success or a terrible failure.
This bill is an ice pick to the frontal lobe of american business. It rips out its free will and reasoning ability. Now the corporate big wigs can stuble about blindly without purpose and no matter how much these bumbling giants screw up the U.S taxpayers will take them gently by the hand and tell them its ok even as the great oaf throws a tantrum demanding more money.
0
Betzee
The Japanese were criticized for not closing failing banks, which is politically difficult to do. Did you agree with the Wall St bail-out GWB orchestrated last fall? Do you feel it was money well spent?
One of the reasons the Chinese invested so much in America, and allowed us to run both high deficits and enjoy low interest rates during the GWB years, was because they thought our system was well regulated (their's certainly isn't). You might lose money but it wasn't because of deceptive accounting practices or ponzi scheme-type swindles. The sub-prime fiasco has really shaken investor confidence. The market today was reacting to market behavior in Asia and Europe (where of course they open first). It's going to be a prolonged downturn.
0
sailwind
Oh the shouting.......The Republicans, Bush blah,blah,blah.
Bush's economic policy was Taxcuts, borrow and spend then bail-outs.
Obama's economic policy is Taxcuts, borrow even more and spend and bail-outs.
Yet the ones SCREAMING about how bad the Republicans were are ENDORSING the same policy. Mindboggling to say the least.
Someone really tell me how this pork party is any different than Bush's policies. The only difference being Bush spent like a drunken sailwind on Republican favorite pork instead of Obama spending it on Democratic bacon.
This is a horrible day for America. This truly is. Our President just signed a bill for another four years of Bush economics and had the audicity to call it "change".
Back to the screaming now about those evil republicans.
0
jbro888
a part of the problem is that the federal reserve (not federal btw... and with no reserves as well) is a private bank which lends money to the govt they set us all up for these bubbles by playing with the interest rate...
thats why weve been having bubbles and bursts. cause the real market isnt able to operate to its fullest with the fed ramming its interest rate down our throats and printing money from out of no where!
0
Betzee
You're not planning to avail yourself of Medicare? Half an American's lifetime medical expenses come, on average, during the last two years of life.
Now we got a prescription drug program as well. If anyone can point to anything in the stimulus bill which approaches the pork in that I mean with Uncle Sam payin' retail prices for them drugs and all....
Maybe you're of the school it's the patriotic duty of seniors to kick the bucket in order to relieve those working of the burden of having to support 'em?
0
dennis0bauer
0
smithinjapan
sailwind: "Bush's economic policy was Taxcuts, borrow and spend then bail-outs. Obama's economic policy is Taxcuts, borrow even more and spend and bail-outs."
HUGE difference, and it's quite amazing that you can't see it. bush's spending put you IN the crisis you are in; Obama's is going to pull you out. NONE of the stimulus would be necessary if not for the economy going under, which it did on the past president's watch.
That being said, it's going to get worse before it gets better, and again those who cannot understand that and see only 2 seconds in front of their current position don't deserve to be helped.
"Back to the screaming now about those evil republicans."
Hey, you're the one talking about evil and screaming.
Get it straight, sailwind: it's going to take TIME AND MONEY! There was no economic crisis before bush, there was a SURPLUS! If this were occuring and bush was just brought into office and decided a stimulus plan, the situation would be VERY different and people wouldn't be screaming bloody murder as you claim they would -- at least, not everyone would. This isn't a game of even-Steven, and the situation when bush took office and the disaster Obama inherited are not at all the same thing.
He's helping things out and you guys go ballistic; if he did nothing and SPENT nothing and watched the economy continue to spiral thanks to the previous presiden't recognized awful policies, you'd go ballistic. What this comes down to, in other words, is you guys shirking the blame for bush onto Obama's shoulders, and being angry at him simply because he is not bush.
0
adaydream
Haven't read the bill. Like they read the bills that cross their desk and like they would read this bill that they intended to vote against anyway.
george bush's bills were tax breaks directed at the richest portion of the population. A top down approach.
The Obama Stimulus Plan is directed at the middle class, the ones who do the work and actually do most of the spending. The ones who need jobs and are the ones that stimulate the economy.
Good job Obama. < :-)
0
VOR
While everyone has a right to their opinion, the only opinions that really matter regarding the leveraging of US tax dollars are US taxpayers.
Obama and his cast of thieves have just rolled the dice with $787 Billion taxpayers dollars and now own the economy. Eventually, the tax man will come calling. It still remains to be seen when and if this ill conceived spending spree will work and if it doesn't how much more is going to be gambled and how much this is going to cost every man, woman and child for decades to come.
The fleecing of America continues...but it has gotten significantly worse!
0
skipthesong
aday: "Haven't read the bill. Like they read the bills that cross their desk and like they would read this bill that they intended to vote against anyway." for the third time this week, I have posted a link to the contents of the bill. Now, here in the most lib of lib media, is it again. Read it, top to bottom.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/01/24/house-stimulus-bill-fulln160569.html
The Obama Stimulus Plan is directed at the middle class, the ones who do the work and actually do most of the spending. The ones who need jobs and are the ones that stimulate the economy." I take it that you don't invest much nor do you own your own US based business, do you?
So, you are telling me that if I make more than xxx.00's, I'm not worthy and that me investing money, having several companies and hiring quite a fair amount of people is doing nothing to help the US? But, if I had had a job a Burger King making minimum wage and then getting laid off, I should be given a medal?
Figures someone would use something so irrelevant as the patriot act to enhance their argument.
0
smithinjapan
VOR: "While everyone has a right to their opinion, the only opinions that really matter regarding the leveraging of US tax dollars are US taxpayers."
Right on the everyone has an opinion part, wrong on the rest. You don't honestly believe that any 'opinions' on this site do anything to change anything else, do you? aside from some people's thinking, of course. What I mean is it's not an OPINION that matters at all, if ANY matter (not one person's more than another's), but it's the VOTEs that matter -- and, newsflash, Obama and Co. were voted in by a landslide.
Again, if any opinions matter at all, they all do. If some don't, none do. Your contintual 'the fleecing of America continues' line has no more impact on the economy than a Thai coming on here and commenting in Thai.
0
GJDailleult
While it is, as always, entertaining reading all these posts arguing over American tribal politics and anti-government economic mythology, it is all kind of missing the point. The stimulus bill has been signed for one reason only - to try and compensate for the collapse of the American financial system. It is looking more and more like the US system, and much of the world's financial system, was nothing more that an elaborate money laundering machine creating trillions of fake wealth. Whether or not the stimulus is a waste of money can be debated, but it is not the real issue. And that real issue was not caused by Obama, Bush, Democrats, or Republicans. The causes are much deeper and scarier than that.
0
SushiSake3
Sailwind - "Oh the shouting.......The Republicans, Bush blah,blah,blah.... Back to the screaming now about those evil republicans."
It's just amazing sometimes how far Republicans/conservatives will go to deny taking responsibility for poor judgement.
The GOP and their supporters own this recession and quite frankly it's getting tiring listen to their continual retorts, complaints and blithering accusations.
They should quit moaning and start owning up to their past errors, intellectual tardiness and wrong votes before they start attacking the new guy.
0
adaydream
skipthesong - You've read all 1100 pages? Neat. Given another week the republicans still wouldn't have read it. They had time to read enough that they knew what their bitching points were. They read it well enough that they picked it apart. You can't not read it and know what you're dissing.
george bush said that when he gave away $4Trillion to the wealthiest. We were supposed to see that thing like Ronald Reagan talked about, the trickle down. Nothing trickles down. We finally get a tax break that effects us.
I bet you didn't complain with the george bush tax cuts did you?
Patriot act? I mentioned the partiot act? Where? < :-)
0
30061015
Obama should get the pilot that safely ditched his plan in the Hudson to manage the economy. The alternative? Print money, sell debt, raise taxes, spend tax dollars... business as usual, but the market doesn't think so.
What's a US bank "worth" tomorrow? What's a stock "worth" next quarter? What is any paper "worth" next year? No one knows... and this is the problem. Until the bottom is found and values reestablished, the crash will continue unabated with all the appetite of an angry bear awaken from hibernation. The Obama money machine will only make the hole deeper & make the paper you hold worth-less in 4 years than it is today. Double the paper to fill a much deeper hole... sounds about right. However, given the death of globalism and the size of the hole we're digging, the "economy" may never return to "growth" as we knew it, for decades.
0
SushiSake3
VOR - "Obama and his cast of thieves have just rolled the dice with $787 Billion taxpayers dollars and now own the economy."
VOR, how come you still don't get it?
As myself and other posters have said, this stimulus wouldn't have even been necessary if the previous administration hadn't been so reckless with your and my money.
Also, I notice you bandy about some seemingly big numbers in a pretty lame attempt to make a point and yet you completely fail to mention the even bigger $ numbers that were squandered on Iraq thanks to the administration that is largely to blame for the recession you are getting uptight about.
VOR - "Eventually, the tax man will come calling."
Ahem, he already is. In case you hadn't already noticed, as at the change of adminstration, the U.S. government was already paying **$450 billion **a year in interest on loans.
VOR - "It still remains to be seen when and if this ill conceived spending spree will work and if it doesn't how much more is going to be gambled and how much this is going to cost every man, woman and child for decades to come."
Again, you completely ignore the cause in an admittedly lame attempt to score a political point.
VOR - "The fleecing of America continues...but it has gotten significantly worse!"
Yet again, no mention of the $2-3 TRILLION squandered by the previous administration.
Heck, I'm even getting fed up myself about how often I have to look into the past and mention the previous administration, but the only reason I do so is because the people my posts are targeted at are clearly not learning anything from their past mistakes and seem hellbent on repeating them.
0
TexasAggie
Obama has already outspent Bush in just 3 weeks.
Heckuvajob, Obama.
0
VOR
smith, opinions do matter, some matter more than others. The opinions of the American people forced out the Republicans voting for change. They voted out the Republicans but got the same irresponsible overspending criminals they thought they voted out.
It will be American taxpayer's opinions which will matter in 2010 and 2012. And its refreshing to agree with you the comments on JT have no impact on anything other than providing me a place to collect my thoughts and sharpen my argument against the unhinged a government out of spinning out of control. Thanks for your assistance in helping me convince Americans from all walks of life that their government is stealing from them and their children.
0
VOR
its getting late.
second to last sentence should read "against a government spinning out of control"
0
TexasAggie
Obama signs the Bill taking ownership of the Democrats collapsing U.S. economy. In response, the DOW drops over 279 points.
Haha, looks like Obama doesn't give everyone a tingle down their leg.
Good luck to the Democrats with their Obeynomics recovery plan.
0
adaydream
Right now it's the opinions of those who voted in 2008 that counts. Yeah we'll see what happens. And in a year when the stimulus has had a chance to work or fail, then opinions will start counting for 2010. But for right now, the only opinion that counts voted already. < :-)
0
SushiSake3
TexasAgie - "Obama has already outspent Bush in just 3 weeks."
So you're saying the $6 trillion bush and the GOP burnt through is a smaller number than $787 billion ?
Aha........ ?? x-)
0
sailwind
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the real difference between Obama's policy for the economy and Bush's policy.
It's the same.
Tax cuts, borrow, spend.
Lot's of yelling that, 'I just don't get it'......But nobody has even attempted to address that point through all the partisan hyperbole. I also find it mindboggling that given the fact that policy just doesn't work anymore you would support the same policy with such a vegeance now just because it's under the Democrat brand name instead of the Republican brand name now.
0
SushiSake3
VOR - "They voted out the Republicans but got the same irresponsible overspending criminals they thought they voted out."
I understand the analogy now.
The GOP is like a man who has been run over by a truck.
He's lying bleeding profusely by the side of the road, near death, and when a nurse who can help him runs up, he starts abusing her and calling her names and refusing to be treated.
The end of the story is that the man dies of his injuries.
Perhaps the GOP can learn something from this, but I'm sure as heck not holding my breath.
0
SushiSake3
VOR - "And its refreshing to agree with you the comments on JT have no impact on anything other than providing me a place to collect my thoughts and sharpen my argument against the unhinged a government out of spinning out of control. Thanks for your assistance in helping me convince Americans from all walks of life that their government is stealing from them and their children."
VOR, you STILL don't get it, do you? :-)
As myself and other posters have said, this stimulus wouldn't have even been necessary if the previous administration hadn't been so reckless with your and my money.
0
adaydream
george bush's tax plan was focused on the top 1% of the population. Barack Obabma's plan is focused at 95% of the population.
That's the biggest difference in the tax break portion between bush and Obama.
Barack Obama is putting out money to stimulate jobs and rebuild the economy and george bush gave tax breaks to send jobs out of the country.
Barack Obama is creating or saving 3 to 4 million dollars. george bush saw the biggest and fastest decline in jobs in over 50 years.
There's a couple for you. < :-)
0
sailwind
adaydream
I agree.....Obama's Tax, spend, borrow plan (same pig different lipstick)will work this time.
Look how the stock market reacted.
0
SushiSake3
sailwind - "I'm still waiting for someone to tell me the real difference between Obama's policy for the economy and Bush's policy. It's the same. Tax cuts, borrow, spend."
Completely wrong.
Bush and co. spent (not to mention, wasted) billions on Iraq and Iraqis - perhaps as much as $3 trillion when the shouting over there finally stops.
President Obama wants to inject billions into America.
That's one massive difference.
Another massive difference is you will remember bush froze - write that down and look at it for a few minutes - FROZE every domestic program that wasn't Defence or Homeland Security.
President Obama, on the other hand, IS injecting billions into - yep, you are dead right - domestic programs.
Yet another massive difference is this - bush and co. didn't give a toss about climate change or U.S. energy efficiency and were more than happy to enrich terrorist-supporting states like the Saudi Kingdom by giving them billions of your and other Americans' hard-earned tax dollars.
Write this down: bush and co. happily gave YOUR money to the state that was behind 911, even up to 7 long years after the attack.
President Obama, on the other hand, IS injecting billions into - yep, you are right again - developing technologies to harness energy we get for free from the sun, wind and water.
Happy? :-)
0
proxy
Betzee, yes good point; not all, but many politicians just want to scrape by until the next election and not deal with real problems, for example pension benefits. But as the boomers are now outnumbered it is time to tackle that mess and the answer is quite simple, make the boomers work an extra 5 years.
Obama has gone out out a limb with the bailout but he was pushed out there on the limb and being newly elected he has time before he has to start worrying about another election.
0
adaydream
sailwind
Nah...
It's a totally different pig. Barack Obama didn't save any pages from the george bush playbook.
Yeah I saw the stock market, they are still waiting to see what happens with the $350Billion to the banks and the auto makers. < :-)
0
sailwind
President Obama, on the other hand, IS injecting billions into - yep, you are right again - developing technologies to harness energy we get for free from the sun, wind and water.
Replace 'injecting' with 'borrowing'..........The same thing that got us into this mess in the first place.
But at least he is borrowing money we don't have to spend on Democratic pork now....All is forgiven as we sink further down the tubes with "change we can believe in".
0
SushiSake3
proxy - "Obama has gone out out a limb with the bailout but he was pushed out there on the limb."
VOR, proxy get its. Why don't you? :-)
0
SushiSake3
Sailwind - "Replace 'injecting' with 'borrowing'..........The same thing that got us into this mess in the first place."
Yes, I agree with you now. And which adminstration put President Obama in this no-choice situation?
(Hint: It wasn't Bill Clinton).
Sail, I'm interested. Would you rather have your govt. sit on its hands? Print more money? Keep up bush's strategy of giving money to foreigners?
What do you want it to do?
0
SushiSake3
Oh and Sailwind, when you answer, can you tell us where you think the money will come from for your plan considering the U.S. is completely bankrupt thanks to the previous administration?
What else can it do besides borrow???
0
sailwind
What else can it do besides borrow???
A Spending Freeze would be a good place to start.
0
SushiSake3
Sail, how is a spending freeze going to stimulate consumer spending?
0
Sarge
"A Spending Freeze would be a good place to start."
The Democrat-controlled Congress initiate a spending freeze? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, that is too funny, Sailwind!
I see the stock market has reacted positively to this brilliant bill, taking another tumble.
0
sailwind
Sail, I'm interested. Would you rather have your govt. sit on its hands? Print more money? Keep up bush's strategy of giving money to foreigners?
What do you want it to do?
Would you rather have your govt. sit on its hands? .....Yes.
Print more money? ..... No
Keep up bush's strategy of giving money to foreigners? Could care less about Bush he ain't in charge anymore to the relief of most everybody except those who continue to 'pine' for him. More concerned with the guy in charge now and what he is going to do...So far it's the same as Bush economic policy except it's on steroids now.
What do you want it to do? Abolish capital gain taxes, lower the corporate tax rate to 12.9 percent to match Ireland's. Suck up all the toxic debt in the finance sector.....It will be painful for all Americans but we did it to ourselves and we have the piper for for our financial BI-PARTISAN foolishness. Time to cut up the credit card and pay down the debt.
Put America back to work through the private sector and keep Uncle Sugar as far out of it as you can with the exception of strict regulatory oversight.
That's what I like to see happen.
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Sarge
"how is a spending freeze going to stimulate consumer spending?"
Consumers will see that the government is serious about fiscal responsibility, which you have been lecturing us about, SushiSake3.
President Obama made me laugh when he said people can't spend money if they don't have any. That's never stopped the government.
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SushiSake3
Sarge - "The Democrat-controlled Congress initiate a spending freeze? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, that is too funny, Sailwind!"
That's funny, you weren't laughing when the previous administration blew the lid off U.S. government spending and spent more money than any U.S. government in history.
Why was that Sarge?
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Sarge
SushiorSake - You must not be aware that the previous administration had to deal with a crippled airline industry, triggering a recession, and terrorists that the administration before ignored.
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SushiSake3
Sail - So you would rather have your government sit on its hands?
How is that going to stimulate consumer spending, which is crucial for economic recovery?
How is the government sitting on its hands going to get the banks to free up credit markets?
These are big questions, Sailwind.
Sailwind - "So far it's the same as Bush economic policy except it's on steroids now."
Please read my 3.53pm post again where I pointed out 3 massive differences.
Sailwind - "Suck up all the toxic debt in the finance sector."
But that's what only the government (that you think should be sitting on its hands doing nothing) can do.......
"Time to cut up the credit card and pay down the debt."
Agreed. Buy with unemployment set to hit 10%, how will the increasing numbers of people losing their jobs pay down their debts if they have no income?
Are you talking magic here? :-)
Jokes aside, I'm serious - where will the money for your bold reform ideas comes from if it doesn't come from the government?????
I think this is what is **really **frustrating Republicans/conservatives?
You see, Republicans/conservatives want their mantra of fiscal discipline preserved, (despite having shown precisely ZERO fiscal disipline when bush was in power) but thanks to the non-existant fiscal discipline shown by the previous government they voted for twice, they now find themselves in a real bind when they realize there is NO WAY OUT of this economic black hole they dug themselves without their government acting like liberals/socialists.
I can understand the pain and frustration. :-)
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skipthesong
I really hope the mod starts doing his job, GWB is not relevent in this discussion. aday: "skipthesong - You've read all 1100 pages? Neat." with the exception to the first 100 of propagander and the garbage in between, yes I did.
" Given another week the republicans still wouldn't have read it." So what, that's their problem. Why do you insist on putting the repubs in every sentence, is that your only defense to to this?
They had time to read enough that they knew what their bitching points were." Ok, so were all their gripes not warranted?
george bush said that when he gave away $4Trillion to the wealthiest." I don't care what GWB said. Its past tense.
We were supposed to see that thing like Ronald Reagan talked about, the trickle down. Nothing trickles down. We finally get a tax break that effects us." What school of economics did you study at? Besides, I am not going to argue on that, all of us here were most likely still in high school at that time. Not relevant.
I bet you didn't complain with the george bush tax cuts did you?" You don't invest, do you?
Patriot act? I mentioned the partiot act? Where? < :-)" What does that have to do with this economic stimulus bill? Nothing. Oh, and Obama voted for the patriot act!
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SushiSake3
Sarge - "Consumers will see that the government is serious about fiscal responsibility, which you have been lecturing us about, SushiSake3."
You need to go back to Economics 101, Sarge. :-)
Um...he's right. Can you spend money you don't have? I can't.
Sarge - "You must not be aware that the previous administration had to deal with a crippled airline industry, triggering a recession, and terrorists that the administration before ignored."
Um, the airline industry tanked **after **911, which you will recall bush and co. let in after being clearly warned of an attack.
Sorry, I just read your post again - did you just say the crippled airline industry triggered a recession, and led to the 911 terrorist attacks???
Heck, no wonder the GOP went down in flames in November by the biggest losing margin ever!
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likeitis
Well, I cannot speak for Sailwind, but as for how government should be involved in business, I would prefer some hand sitting myself to this bout of giving away billions and billions.
What exactly is "economic recovery"? Sounds like a return to the days of massive prosperity. Not interested. A stable economy with little or no national debt is just fine with me, and its plenty of target.
As for increasing consumer spending, that is something that really only the consumers can do. I think that once the disease has run its course, that will happen.
Not sure what you mean by "free up credit markets". If you mean there will be little capital for the purpose of lending, yeah, that is a problem. I would let lenders implode until we get a reasonable amount of them, then lend them government money specifically for the purpose of lending to others.
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sailwind
Sushi,
I really hate to do this to you but this should take the blinders off.
Where did the Government get the money from in the first place?
Hint.....The Government isn't funded by going into the Whitehouse backyard and trimming a few trillion of the old money tree growing there.
The taxpayers deserve better now. Much better now, then Uncle Sam throwing back money they have already taken from them in the first place (and have gone so far as to borrow from future taxpayers not even born yet) to be spent on pet pork programs, so Congressman Smith can get his butt re-elected by bringing home the bacon to his constituents.
That was the 'Change' I was hoping for in Obama....Instead I got Politics as Usual. He had inherited Government ever more spiraling out of fiscal control and he has chosen to just accelerate the process.
As far as the tax rebates....People are just going to use it to pay down their existing debt, they aren't going to spend it on new cars or T.V's or anything else to stimulate the economy.
We need to free up capital so people can feel secure enough to invest again in companies that do create REAL jobs, not Taxpayer funded ones.
Best way to do that abolish all penalities on the small and big investors and cut the corporate tax rate so they can be competitive again with their products.
Americans have always prided themselves on being able to pull themselves up from adversity by their own efforts. Give them the tools and they will pull out of this. The tools they need is to get Government out of the way and out of their pockets and lead a policy that supports investment in the private sector again.
This plan is the wrong answer in my opinion. And Sushi, it isn't like I haven't given this a lot of thought, I have. The people that are the real backbone of jobs and job creation as measured by the stock market seem to have also and have come to the same conclusion.
This is a trillion dollar stinker.
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SushiSake3
likeitis - thanks for your comments.
Do you have any estimated timelines, ie: for your 'I think that once the disease has run its course, that will happen."
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likeitis
There are many things to consider, including psychological points. How long will it take for the entrepreneurial spirit to recover so that we have new banks and new lenders? How long until some people accumalate enough wealth to start such institutions? There are things that cannot be foreseen, such as wars breaking out, or even new markets opening such as what happened with personal computers.
I would put a general estimate of 5 to 10 years. But I have to admit, there is a lot of data I don't have, and since no one is paying me to do this, the estimate is so rough its just about useless. Mostly it illustrates my degree of patience in waiting for "recovery".
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likeitis
I agree with Sail for the most part. But I don't think we need to get to investment and worry about taxes on profit just yet. We need debt relief now, and that can be in the form of extensions on time to pay and reductions of interest rates and late fees. Generating wealth takes time. Given the time, many will generate it.
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smithinjapan
VOR: "The opinions of the American people forced out the Republicans voting for change."
Actually, that was the VOTING of the people, not the opinions. Even if you stretch the meaning of opinion so that you are referring to opinion being exercised in the act of voting, you still negate your comment that the opinion of Americans (on this site) matters more than non-Americans; and let's not kid ourselves, that is how you and many others on this site try to defend yourselves when you run out of logical arguments.
"While everyone has a right to their opinion, the only opinions that really matter regarding the leveraging of US tax dollars are US taxpayers."
Again, this is an attempt by you to undermine the opinions of others on this site. YOu are not voting here when you post an opinion, so your opinion has no more weight or meaning than anyone else's from anywhere in the world. In fact, if the argument is weak and another person's better, the weaker argument has less meaning altogether.
I'm not trying to pull any of the tit-for-tat arguing that has been going on for the past few days, I just want to point out the incongruencies in your statements regarding 'who has a right to post an opinion' and what not. I suggest heretofore you leave that argument on the desktop. At the actual polls, yes, it is only the "vote" of Americans that counts, NOT here.
sailwind: I'm sorry, friend, but SushiSake has beaten every single one of your arguments HANDS DOWN. He has pointed out how it is not at all the same, how bush injected borrowed money into Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., and completely froze domestic programs save Homeland Security and money for war (asking several times for more); Obama is injecting borrowed money into domestic programs, which give back to the people and enrich your nation instead of just those involved in weapons manufacturing, defense, intelligence, and the ultra-rich (often with investments in the above).
BOTH monies were borrowed, my friend; the major difference is that the latter's will give back, while that of the foreign admin. is the reason the stimulus plan exists.
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sailwind
Smith
I really could less about Bush now, he is done....toast...Retired.
Time you got used to that.
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smithinjapan
sailwind: "I really could less about Bush now, he is done....toast...Retired."
I'm happy both that bush is finished, and that you don't care about him (anymore), but you cannot separate him from the current economic crisis. It's be akin to going home to a bombed out house and saying 'no more talking about the bomb or who dropped it... that's over and done with'.
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smithinjapan
sailwind: Sorry, forgot to add... it'd also be like saying the bomb isn't what caused the house to be bombed out.
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SuperLib
smithinjapan: but you cannot separate him from the current economic crisis.
Actually, quite a few people do separate Bush from the crisis since it's really not relevant to what needs to be done in the here and now. Mostly obsessive types bring him up because they can't stop themselves even if they wanted to.
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SuperLib
I think the thing that got us into this mess will bail us out: our lust to consume. Hopefully the future version will be more moderate, but in the end we like buying stuff and after a long enough time people will start buying again.
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TexasAggie
The day after the election, the DOW drops.
The day of the inauguration, the DOW drops.
The first time Obama signs any bill related to the economy, the DOW drops.
Anyone here noticing a trend?
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Good_Jorb
The DOW Jones has essentially been going down since May 2008. A noticable trend is the DOW keeps going down even though both Bush and Obama have tried stimulus packages. It seems bipartisan politics continues to dumb down the masses, blaming/relying on politicians is just a way of avioding real problems.
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yabits
Yes, anytime the Dow drops it's followed by a flurry of wrong-headed statements from those who want to shift responsibility away from Republicans and onto Democrats.
If Obama is to be blamed for the most recent drops in stocks, why then can't he be praised for the terrific bargains that these current stock prices represent? When the people who wisely invest in the many solid, quality companies out there are selling for 20% or greater gains a year from now, will people praise Obama? I don't think so, nor do I think they should.
The smart folks left stocks a year or two ago when Bush and his many apologists were saying that things were going great. Listen to any of his State of the Union speeches up until 2008 -- no storm clouds on his horizon. Many investors are starting to get back in, nibbling here and there at the unprecedented values. It won't be too much longer before those nibbles will start to become larger -- and guess where stock prices will head when they do.
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adaydream
Obama just got through laying down his plan for the mortage meltdown. It sounded like a good plan and sound.
It doesn't save everybody. But it does give ways that homeowners that need help to get it.
Of course you have to have a job to make house payments and forestall any stimulus help. The federal government isn't going buy your house for you if you don't work.
Help is on the way to some more people who may loose their home. < :-)
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TexasAggie
Confidence is what drives the stock market. If Obama inspired confidence the market would rise. He doesn't. It declines further.
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yabits
If the bubble didn't teach anyone anything else, it should have taught that rising markets are mainly influenced by a rising market, and not about this or that leader.
Since every sell of a stock is also a buy -- the sells just don't go into a black hole -- the folks who are buying today are indeed expressing confidence, are they not?
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yabits
It wasn't so long ago that a leader was using the bubble conditions to convince everyone that the economy was strong and they should continue to have confidence in it. Even though it was an economy fueled by over-consumption from people taking out equity mortgages on over-inflated housing values.
Is that the kind of confidence you are looking to your leaders to re-ignite?
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SuperLib
I don't think Yabits really has an answer.
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smithinjapan
SuperLib: "Actually, quite a few people do separate Bush from the crisis since it's really not relevant to what needs to be done in the here and now."
Sorry, but the moment you forget what got you into this mess (or when it started, if that makes you feel better) is the moment you're in danger of repeating it. It'd be like giving a homeowner a bailout for his/her bad loan and not stipulating that they CAN'T repeat what led to the bad loan. They, in turn, cannot simply say, "The past is the past; so let's forget it."
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WilliB
Bush did not start the financial excess that led to this; although he certainly participated in it. But now the Democrats take it to an entirely new level. A trillion Dollar loaned from China (or printed, Mugabe-like) for government pork in the first month in office, and pushed in one night, after... drumroll... all of 10 hours time to read the entire 1000 pages.
The same thing under the Reps would have been (correctly) portrayed as a scandal. (We never heard about trillions then; now better get used to it.)
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M_Lammerse
Doing mostly photography work for a large economic related newspaper, I hear sometimes the horror stories which come by. For example that there is still about 15.0000 billion dollar which still will be vaporized..This crisis is an international crisis, which can only be solved international, from China to that of the US, from Japan to South Africa. You can also not compare it with any crisis before, the situation is completely different, there are demographic and many other factors which were of no role by the crisis in the '30s for example. The only thing which is sure, is that the economic models of all modern nations will change. from capitalism -free market to a much more ny state controlled form.
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WilliB
Renaming every government entitlement and pork spending as "stimulus" does not change what it is.
Yet, the Democrats are getting away with this scam. Unbelievable.
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