Obama urges Democrats to seize moment on health care
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0
grafton
Wow, what a long and detailed article, why can’t we have more like this?
“The outcome is important for all Americans, since the changes would affect the ways nearly everyone receives and pays for health care and failure to act would leave in place a system that many find lacking and that leaves out tens of millions of people.”
Yes, the entire rest of the world in fact.
Not being an American could somebody tell me what a GOP is?
0
Molenir
Grand Old Party = GOP. Its another term for Republican. Commonly represented by an Elephant. Democrats are represented by an ass, or a donkey. (I've never been sure which one it is to be honest) Anyway, if you've ever seen political cartoons, in which a donkey and an elephant are represented, its referring to the Republicans and Democrats.
Regarding the substance of this article. It does sum up the current situation fairly well. Obama and Democrat leaders are desperately twisting arms, trying to pass what is undoubtedly one of the most unpopular bills ever to be foisted onto the American people. They're doing it under the guise of needed reform, but what they're passing will do almost nothing to address the real problems. Instead its essentially a power grab, that will force every single American to buy government mandated insurance, or face jail time.
0
skipthesong
They're doing it under the guise of needed reform, but what they're passing will do almost nothing to address the real problems." Thanks Molenir.... I've been trying to tell the other posters the same thing. Its not even slightly touching the real issues.
If they really wanted to move to a socialized health care, they would follow Dennis Kucinich, who is not voting for this bill and is standing his ground. While I don't like what he wants, I respect him for standing his ground and as you are aware, he's not easily bought like so many Dems have been over the past few months.
How can anyone say what they are doing is fair, when they allowing states like Nebraska to get off scot free? had to pay a big pay out to Louisiana?
And for those of us living in Japan, who are not making a lot of money, you are going to have to buy US insurance while at the same time pay into the Japan. Watch!
0
ca1ic0cat
It would seem that a lot of democrats are hearing that seizing the moment to do what the public thinks is the wrong thing is political suicide. I'm starting to wonder if this bill can even get 49 votes.
0
Odogma
Senator Dick Durbin, Democrat:
" The Republicans Are Correct, We Are Going to Cut Hundreds of Billions of Dollars From Medicare. "
March 04, 2010
0
SushiSake3
Molenir is right.
According to GOP Talking Points, this nasty bit of legislation that "75% of Americans Want Scrapped" is in fact a "Socialist" "Government Takeover" (cue: shrieking) that is being "Forced Down Our Throats."
Well, that's what the well-dressed (and no doubt, well insured) folks sitting around in chairs on "Fair and Balanced" Fox News keep saying.
And there's some conservative folks out there who are saying that the 40-50 milion-odd Americans who have no health insurance and no way to pay for medical costs don't really matter and should simply be ignored.
That's probably a good strategy for keeping costs down because when those folks need really urgent, really expensive healthcare (probably because not being insured isn't a really good incentive to have regualar checkups, is it?) someone else..I dunno who.... can pay for it.
I can't be stuffed.
0
skipthesong
sushi, what is your problem? You said health care is a right, well so is retirement yet you want them to cut right into that. Why not work on getting cheaper meds? Oh, that's right, they just helped out big pharma. Why not work on what's making the costs soar? No. Trial lawyers are their friends. why not let insurance be sold cross statelines? No, they would jeapodize that state's tax revenue.
Oh, what about that 40 to 50 mil you keep calling out? Obama just said 30 mil. So you know more than him? how about cutting just 1% of those social programs? No, won't do that.
so, we are left we not working for ourselves anymore, we must work hard for those who won't pay for health care and work to provide trial lawyers payouts. thanks.
Now, please show me, in the actual bill where your selling points are hit.
0
SushiSake3
It's amazing how the country that creates the most wealth in the global economy cannot implement a universal healthcare system.
Most of the rest of the developed world can and has.
0
skipthesong
Most of the rest of the developed world can and has." Most? Not all?
0
SushiSake3
Skip, you may well be right. If Wikipedia is accurate,
"Universal health care is implemented in **all **industrialized countries, with the exception of the United States.[1] It is also provided in many developing countries."
0
Wolfpack
Yes, and those countries are beginning to go bankrupt. Seen the riots in Greece lately? Is Spain, Italy, and Portugal all that far behind the Greeks? Oh, and the Germans and the Frensh aren't too happy either - they are being asked to bail out these profligate spenders.
America may be capable of creating a great deal of wealth but it is even more capable of spending it's wealth so that the government is currently in debt to the tune of about $12 trillion! Taxes will have to be raised greatly just to pay for the interest - let alone starting up any new huge social programs like a socialized health care system. Can't you Liberals get real - the country is broke! It is just madness to even consider passing ObamaCare at a time like this.
I suggest that President Obama and the Liberals in Congress "seize the moment" and reform Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid before we end up begging the Chi-Com's for our own bailout.
0
sf2k
So if you drive a car without insurance what's the penalty there? Jail time? Why? Because you might kill someone right? Can you not connect the dots on your own?
So you're country is giving up on medicare and medicaid as well? No? Then what on earth are you talking about? Going to jail? That is ridiculous and typical of American hyperbole. It's about your fellow citizens, it's about life and happiness, and all the things that America is supposed to stand up for. But instead only think of themselves and their fear of government.
No one else has this total fear of government unless you live in China or Burma etc. You already have a gov't system called medicare/medicaid and the sky didn't fall then, nor now. Isn't gov't of the people, for the people? Do you not vote for your representatives? Why then fear your representatives? It makes no sense.
Everyone in the world just shakes their head in amazement on the level of discussion given. On the plus side it does make one happy to live where they are.
Really, I hope it all works out, but the level of discussion is this side of 80s horror movies and is it no wonder nothing happens?
0
sf2k
If only Americans would start paying their bills then they'd have the money to improve their quality of life. If they weren't going to war every 10 years they'd be further ahead.
This will only get worse as China calls in it's treasury bills. What will American's do then? Because the answer isn't war. It's paying bills. Raising taxes. No taxation without representation. Remember?
0
Molenir
Er, no, no I can't. You're going to have to spell it out for me. From my perspective, you don't need a license, you can choose not to drive. With this though, you cannot opt out.
There actually is a reason why the founders wanted a weaker Federal Government. Among other things, they wanted to ensure, that if one state went off the deep end, people could simply up and move to the neighboring state. Thanks to this, you can't move to a different state since its a Federal Mandate. This monstrosity would horrify every single one of the founders.
If it fails, and Dems are forced to start over, and actually create something that will help, that would be a good thing. I think hardly anyone would say the system doesn't need reform, but this bill, is not the solution. If passed, it will simply worsen the problem, and push the country another step closer to insolvency.
0
SushiSake3
Wolpack - "Yes, and those countries are beginning to go bankrupt."
Your point is moot. America has been completely bankrupt for more than a decade.
"Taxes will have to be raised greatly just to pay for the interest."
**Have you only just realized this? ** Liberals were talking about rising debt and costs way back when people like you were hollering for the curtains to go up on the incredibly costly wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
" - let alone starting up any new huge social programs like a socialized health care system."
Socialized healthcare. I love the GOP talking points again.
According to Wikipedia, EVERY developed country has it. But not every country is Socialist. Japan's system works just fine.
"Can't you Liberals get real - the country is broke! It is just madness to even consider passing ObamaCare at a time like this."
Just as it was madness to support the launching of 2 wars nearly a decade ago when America was broke.
WolfPack, sorry, it's impossible to take coments like yours seriously. You should have been talking about rising debt before the 2 wars - 9 long years ago.
Talking about rising debt now....you're almost a decade behind the rest of us in joining this conversation.
But better late than never, I guess.
0
SushiSake3
It's becoming really clear in this and related threads that there is a solid mass of Americans who are near paranoid about 'Government control.'
But hell, let's face it - what are Medicare nad Medicaid but Government controlled programs???
Are they "Socialist" too?
0
sf2k
Um, the elderly don't opt out of medicare/medicaid in droves. They gladly take the money. Isn't this just to extend this to all citizens? It's really fascinating to watch what I and everyone else in the 1st world has become so impossible in the USA. It's truly stupefying.
Where does this fear of gov't control come from if you elect your own representatives and have both and House and Congress? Huh?? You elected them there, didn't you?
0
sf2k
Health care costs money, no doubt. But being sick costs more. So the real question is can you afford to hedge your bets and pay a simple tax to cover for everyone such that when/if the time comes for yourself you have the peace of mind? Isn't that what insurance is?
Healthcare is not a profit business. Profiting off people at their worse moment is a degenerate scam and I am amazed that Americans accept this wholly, but fear conditions that would remove this unethical behaviour. Unbelievable.
Even if Americans just get what system the Senators have, that would be awesome. If baby steps are what are needed, then take those steps. But the first is realizing that fearing government that you elected yourself is a bit nuts
0
sailwind
I'll pass that on to my local pharmacy owner.
0
sf2k
This is like banking. The banking system in the USA is also a basketcase. Banks fail quite often compared to other countries who haven't had a bank failure in more than 50 years. Or education. I'd love to be in Europe myself for an affordable degree.
Think of it like a health-account. You pay into it, and your neighbours too, but when the time comes and help is needed help is provided. Isn't that what insurance is all about? Business has proven that it cannot be trusted and is too closed to accounting. Gov't Healthcare is open to accountability directly by you, the voter. It's an ideal situation, and as such why it is the most common form of care in the world, albeit different in style by nation.
That's it really.
0
sf2k
sailwind
sorry I forgot your pharmacists also gouge you too. Canada you usually pay very little ($2) to nothing when you're unemployed (notch) and if you have a job you get an insurance benefits plan which reduces your payments. One company I worked for paid 100%. Why would a company do that? Well, we aren't burdening them with healthcare costs, so they use benefits to keep employees from leaving.
But yeah, sucks to be in America if you're sick. Other than that, really a beautiful and amazing country. I know once health reform passes in the USA, in whatever capacity, the world will celebrate the end of grief for our American friends.
You deserve better
0
SushiSake3
"You deserve better."
That's what people who bother to think about this issue would believe, unless they have totally bought into the hailstorm of fear-mongering rhetoric spewing out of the hard Right and conservative talk show hosts in that this is a 'Government Takeover' of healthcare.
If you want to see just how ridiculous the Right's angst against this bill is becoming, take a look at "ramming it down our thoughts" comments on this John Stewart clip. It's pretty enlighening.
www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/04/jon-stewart-fox-news-sarah-palin-megyn-kellyn485235.html
0
skipthesong
sushi, how dare you put up a link from the huff.
Anyway, what right do you have to take more money from us? I'm already paying into two systems.
How about fixing the economy and reducing the costs for care (this bill does neither)?
I wonder, if this bill did not have an Obama signature, would you really be down for it. if you are so concerned about the millions without care, do what I do - give a few people a hand out. I can only afford to give to a few, why dont you do the same and leave those who are working hard but are no drawing in a whole lot alone. Don't give me that 250k bit either.
0
sf2k
Saw that last night. Yeah Canadians watch America a lot, so we know how scary it is. Unfortunately that spew is spreading north into our own conservative government, and hence why Canada has fallen off the log of late. I hope for a democratic revolution in my own country soon to get rid of what we call neo-cons. Anti science, anti this or that. it's all the same stuff, even American speech writers are here. It's a real takeover. I hope Canadians wake up soon.
0
sailwind
Ahh, theres the rub. I don't deserve anything from anyone. I owe it to myself to rise and fall on the merits of my own talents and to make my way in life with a minimum Government influence that is possible. It is the pursuit of happiness that is the guiding principle the pursuit. Nobody owes me my happiness, nobody owes me squat, it is up to me to earn my way, Government can help level the playing field but in the end it up to me period. I learned that a long time ago when I was 16, the age when you know everything about the world, and told my father who busted his butt everyday going to work to put food in my mouth, that he 'owed' me a living because I was his son........I'll leave the rest to your imagination as to what my Father said to me that day. Needless to say I was 'fixed' real quick then by my father when it comes to I'm 'entitled' to something just because I was born on this planet.
0
SushiSake3
"sushi, how dare you put up a link from the huff."
Why? Was thereality of it too much to handle? :-)
0
skipthesong
Why? Was thereality of it too much to handle? :-)" Ah, you got me on that one. I just glanced over it and thought you were using it to advance your argument on how the US gov wants to work and pay but no play
0
sf2k
thanks sailwind for totally missing the point. Americans are awesome
0
brotokyo
hehehehe, sushi cites John, oops, I mean Jon Stewart. What a joke. Glad I got my 40 qtrs of work in the US before I immigrated to Japan. Will be eligible for medicare and soc sec if/when I choose to return to the US. Meanwhile, perhaps half of America (I would wager it is a lot less) wants millions who haven't paid 40 qtrs worth of dues into the system to get medical coverage because ... (sorry I always get lost when people try to explain ...)
0
skipthesong
You deserve better" And getting back to the point, what in THIS BILL makes things all rosy? One poster says he doesn't want a socialized health care and you and sushi kick him down saying its not socialized then you use socialist economies to advance your arguments.
0
sf2k
sailwind
That comes across as a bit macho for the reality. Few people can afford unlimited healthcare on their own dime let alone when they are 16. I had multiple surgeries when I was young, no burden to my family or myself. My country stands on guard for thee so to speak, and is a privilege of citizenship.
Until everyone can afford every procedure on their own you need insurance because healthcare costs money, either gov't or private, what have you. It turns out gov't insurance is cheaper and covers everyone but alas has some delays depending on amenity construction. Nothing is perfect.
Regardless of how it works out, with improved healthcare insurance your citizens will be stronger and healthier and less of a burden to themselves and others. That alone will make America stronger, not less so. You're pride in self reliance is then about coming together as a community to help each other, not in ignoring your neighbours. That builds citizens, not consumers.
0
sf2k
The reality is that healthcare is a socialist argument to begin with. End stop. Why is that? It is because you can't rationalize profiting off of the sick. Thus healthcare is a limited special case where yes it is socialized medicine. This is specifically cherry picked because of the equal benefits to all. The rest of the economy, that which is for-profit is thus unaffected, since healthcare is non-profit.
Pick the system with the most benefit to all, but by removing healthcare from the equation, most countries continue on in their for-profit avenues. It takes the burden off our minds to pursue more worthwhile things.
it's really just a health-account backed by the gov't to keep going and not by a company. Explaining any simpler hurts the brain.
0
GJDailleult
The question of why every other developed country has "socialized" medicine is easy to answer. Because universal health care is only socialism in the ideological American definition of the word, in other countries it is just a response to the inability of the market to provide it. Obviously if the private insurance industry could provide universal health care at a profit they would do it. Profit can only be made by limiting coverage to those who can afford the premiums. When other countries decided that it was not good or efficient for their societies to have their citizens sick and/or kicking the bucket due to lack of medical care, they stepped in to fill the role that the market can't. Americans on the other hand decided for ideological reasons to divide the market between government and private insurers, which is basically just a giant taxpayer subsidy for the insurance companies. Government takes the bad risk customers, private takes the good risk ones, and they both try to avoid taking the ones in the middle. A daft system that ends up costing double that of any other country in the world in GDP terms. And mandating that those citizens in the middle buy private insurance doesn't do anything to fix that, it just makes for a bigger subsidy and profit for the insurance companies.
0
sailwind
sf2k,
This bill does nothing to further a stronger and healthier America. The only thing this monstrosity does is actually institutionalize an already broke system with the 'joy' of an added layer of even more Government interference to boot. This bill is nothing more than a naked power grab by the far left to establish itself as the premier political authority over the rest of us for at least the next 50 years. This bill sucks on so many levels that it is just even hurts to think about it and the ramifications for America's future. Get the costs under control first, get the costs under control, reform the current system in a way that does that. Don't instatutionalize what America really wants reformed.....Health Care that is actually affordable and not eaten up instead with Govt red tape and overburdening admin costs to deliver only 33 cents on the dollar in actual real healthcare. Fix that then we can move forward. This crap of a bill does none of that.
0
Odogma
Obama's own party is in revolt. He is an ideologue, and an idiot.
0
cleo
So if you were remiss enough to be born with a congenital condition and to poor parents, you would 'deserve' to be sent home without treatment? Or would you 'owe it to yourself' as a newborn to go out and get a job to pay for your NICU care?
Your argument only holds water if you assume a reasonably level playing field for all. Doesn't that mean ensuring that every member of society gets the medical care he needs to enable him to earn his own way?
0
sf2k
sailwind
once enacted the gov't can then clearly see where duplication exists and cut serious red tape between all the different insurers as they are then merged. Think of it as a huge merger and acquisitions and those that are in duplicate are then let go.
Doubtful that anyone can see or even own up to this duplication until it is first merged and on the same page.
0
sf2k
remember your a voter, so you then press for the end of duplication. This must happen and much savings will result. This I would imagine is only the first of 1-5 bills that finally get it solved. I think the first two bills are really irrelevant, and just principle only as then you have a basis to start active positive change.
Even your constitution has a bunch of amendments. Our Charter of Rights and Freedoms does too. It's a process, but it has to be allowed to begin. I wouldn't want you to think that your arguments are not valid, they are, and can keep affecting further bills.
0
Odogma
I think the Americans here have every right to be wary of Obama's plan for radically changing the system in America. In my experience the overwhelming majority of non-American expatriates I meet want the US to get socialised medicine the same way misery loves company.
0
skipthesong
The reality is that healthcare is a socialist argument to begin with. End stop. Why is that? It is because you can't rationalize profiting off of the sick." Again, where in this bill do you see all in the bill? You are correct and let's not start lying. No one is refused care. they may not get certain treatments but that happens even in your socialized countries. Canadians won't get any cheap treatment should they have a dental problem and there are some really bad ones. In Japan there are a slew of treatments that the insurance doesn't cover either. I don't need to go on do I?
I'm against this because of what I see is me paying a higher premium. Prove to me it will bring down my costs and you have an ally. Prove to me it won't be run like so many other countries where meds are rationed and end of life means oh well your dying.
0
sailwind
Ms. Cleo,
America has a strong and powerful reputation in taking care of the very people you describe through charity hospitals not through Government funded taxpayer dollars. That is also something that will start to go away once we start down this leave all to the Government to take care of us path. America is not the insensitive place you might actually think it is, it never has been.
sf2k
I'll keep this one pretty brief to prove my point. We merged all our Intel into a new super whamadine new bureaucracy called the Department of Homeland Security.........That system has worked real well so far hasn't it? The underwear bomber after billions spent on Homeland Security sure didn't have a problem with the merger.
Once created bureaucracy never works as advertised, this one will be no exception either.
0
sf2k
Odogma
it's amazing to read that Amercians actually fear fairness, openness and accountability from voters. When its a government program you can press for constant change as the process is open to you, not hidden in a filling cabinet. You then have the RIGHT to know, versus no rights at all now.
Weirdness continues.
I'd reiterate the comments to sailwind, just get a bill through and watch what your representatives do. Those weird details are just there to get your wingnut members/senators on board. Once it's passed then other provisions on ending duplication, computerization etc will occur ending much of their special status. If fairness openness and accountability are exercised, then positive change must be there. Why not believe in that? Rather than every ridiculous conspiracy theory? You're a voter. Keep that process in check, but allow the process as well.
I have one health card. I present it. That's it. What paperwork?? It's all on computer. I make an appointment if not an emergency, then walk in. Ez Pz
0
adaydream
Hello republicans and friends. I can't wait for the health care reform bill to get voted on. I keep hearing republicans spouting "No Body wants this." Wrong. I want it. Most everybody I speak to wants it.
So as far as your posting how nobody wants this. I'll just repeat I want it; along with millions of other people. < :-)
0
Odogma
Yes, people who have never used the US system and know next to nothing about seem strangely insistent that Obama defy popular opinion and ram through legislation which will affect 1/6th of the US economy and reshape every facet of US society. How would you react to Americans telling you that your country needs sweeping changes, in the American mode, in the area of [ ], which will reshape your country?
0
Odogma
Even Howard Dean is opposed. Do you read news sources other than Japantoday?
0
sf2k
Odogma,
You are on your way to a healthcare system like that of other countries but remain fearful of and hence why this topic is interesting to non-Americans who wish you well. I live within a socialized medicare system just fine. It is my asking of you to realize your potential, not fear. That is what friends are for.
0
skipthesong
I want it. Most everybody I speak to wants it." You want it because you want it for botox!
Neither of you are have come clean as to how this is going to save me money nor help those numbers w/o care you keep talking about
0
adaydream
I don't run my life by Howard Dean. < :-)
0
skipthesong
I don't run my life by Howard Dean. < :-)" No, that's true, you run you life Pelosi, Reid and Obama :-)
hey, why won't you let me save my money? I haven't made a cent this year both in the US and Japan and its already march. Why do you want to take my money?
0
Odogma
So do I, in Japan. I would hardly characterise it as 'just fine.'
You don't know my potential, and you can't, anymore than a government can pick winners and Central Planning can read the future.
Friends do not lie to other friends, as you do when you claim that life expectancy in the US is sub-70.
Please save the mawkish, touchy-feely Lefty talking points for your real friends.
0
sf2k
Odogma,
I'm not sure I understand. If a healthcare system is successful it attributes less burden on the GDP and therefore more benefit to the economic system. Only USA healthcare is 14.6% of GDP, and non-universal coverage at that. No one else.
Thus thinking of healthcare in terms of economy is wrongheaded, as I've argued before that health is not an economic system at all, and is unethical to consider it such. Once America stops making a buck off sick people will be a better day.
0
SushiSake3
Skip - if this bill isn't passed, there'll be a lot more of your money taken in future by the US government when it faces spiralling health budgets - thanks in no small part to increasing numbers of uninsured Americans facing major health problems (due to lack of preventative care caused by lack of insurance cover) straining the system.
I mean, what would you rather do - fund someone **now **to get preventative treatment and advice that, for example, prevents them becoming a diabetic, or fund the same person **later **when they become a full blown diabetic and require a lifetime of treatment?
Amid all the shrieking from the Right about "government takeovers", I'm really not sure what part of this scenario is difficult to understand.
0
Odogma
Surely your ludicrous world view doesn't stop with health care. You should be demanding that all Americans get free legal representation, free food, clothing and shelter as well.
0
Odogma
How? By force? I bet you, like most socialists, would enjoy that scenario.
0
skipthesong
well sushi, nothing's gonna happen until later anyway.
0
sf2k
Odogma writes:
You talk like American is the USSR. Do you not vote? Because if you do, then you are in charge and not a central planner. Again the Fear of Government comes up, but you elect your reps. You are you own planner.
0
SushiSake3
And let's face it - the Right's howls of 'it's a giveaway to insurance companies!' need to consider - what other type of private business is there that provides health insurance than the obvious - a health insurance company??
Of course this bill is going to help the insurance industry - why would you expect otherwise?
Would you rather have Joe SixpPack Home Delivery Pizza insure your health?
0
sf2k
Odogma,
I was offering legitimate points, I see no reason to get hostile eh
0
sailwind
Well that doesn't really square with the facts about this bill. The people of Massachusetts voted Scott Brown who campaigned as number 41 in the Senate to block this bill and won Ted kennedy's seat! How much clearer could the voters be on this?????? Massachusetts is the most heavily democrat state in the nation and they hate this thing, enough so that they sent Scott Brown a Republican to the Senate to kill it. Now it's reconcilation on a straight central planned Democrat vote, or central planning Whitehouse style after all. So no we not our own planner at this point in the process. We were when Scott brown was elected but we aren't now.
0
SushiSake3
sf2k - "Again the Fear of Government comes up."
Too right. Conservatives in general are absolutely PETRIFIED of government control, it's almost laughable.
They don't want the government sticking its nose into their healthcare, but they don't bat an eyelid when the same government provides education services, controls their Medicaid/Medicare, funds highways, construction, security operations and the military.
I think what is happening is the extreme Right wing elements - Rush Limpbough and Fox News to name two - are succeeding at filling the airwaves with so much crap - much of it either total distortions, lies passed off as 'balanced reporting' or outright fear-mongering - that many on the right are - in fact - buying much of it as 'fact.'
It's a shame to that see for some, thinking is almost going out of style.
I mean, why think when wingnut like Rush Limpbough can think for you?
con control And you'll see much of the talking points on this coming from Right wing talkshow hosts like Rush Limpbough, the as yet uncrowned leader of the GOP.
0
sf2k
Your government is voted by the people. There is no central planner that you did not vote for. Not a one.
You are the employer, not the employee. Brown shapes the discussion but you do not live in the USSR. Surely rational discussion must occur at some point? Otherwise that is no longer a democracy, that's an oligarchy
0
adaydream
sf2k, don't you understand. When the republicans get upset they get ugly.
But what's even better is when they get all fired up and then they lose. Kinda like when Obama was elected. This is one of those moments.
Barack Obama hasn't backed down from the republican leadership. He hasn't given his health care proposal to the trash man and grabbed a blank piece of clean paper to start all over.
Oh how the republican leadership swears they will repeal this bill. But once it passes and the American people have a piece of health care that they never had before, they won't give it up.
Yep, just like when the republicans passed the tax breaks and the Rx Plan, use reconciliation and pass it. < :-)
0
SushiSake3
SushiSake3 - "Skip - if this bill isn't passed, there'll be a lot more of your money taken in future by the US government when it faces spiralling health budgets"
Odogma - "How? By force?"
No, by increased taxes.
0
SushiSake3
SushiSake3 - "I mean, what would you rather do - fund someone **now **to get preventative treatment and advice that, for example, prevents them becoming a diabetic, or fund the same person **later **when they become a full blown diabetic and require a lifetime of treatment?"
Skip, feel free to answer the question.
0
cleo
You think it's OK for citizens to be dependent on charity? That's very.... victorian. With a small v.
Citizens should be entitled to help when they need it (including but not limited to health care). Having to rely on charity is degrading.
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SushiSake3
sf2k - "Brown shapes the discussion but you do not live in the USSR."
I've got to admit, that's a *really *interesting statement. :-)
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sf2k
adaydream
man, no kidding! Good luck and keep pushing. The Democrats need to show some backbone
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sailwind
True, in the USSR they did things purely as a one party vote to pass law.....oh wait a minute. :)
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sailwind
At what cost to those who are busy trying to earn their keep instead?
Serious question.
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Odogma
The USSR no longer exists.
Maybe that is what has some ppl here so worked up about a health care system they will never pay into or use.I honestly don't know what else explains why so many non-Americans are so worked up about this issue.
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cleo
At the 'cost' of not losing everything you've worked for and then some, and bringing the rest of your family down with you, when you commit the unforgivable mistake of bringing a congenitally sick baby into the world, or developing a debilitating illness that prevents you working.
In the meantime, you pay your dues and give humble thanks for your own good health and high earning ability to whoever or whatever it is you worship. Serious answer.
The healthier the overall population is, the less it will cost. The more access people have to good preventative medicine, the healthier the population will be.
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SushiSake3
Cleo - "The more access people have to good preventative medicine, the healthier the population will be."
I'm glad you mentioned that, and I'll add that the healthier the population is, the less days are lost due to sickness, and the more people will pay in taxes.
Maintaining a relatively healthy population is not only good for people, it also mkes very good economic sense.
I have highlighted the value of preventative a number of times on this thread, and yet - strangely - have had next to no comments about it from those who oppose this bill.
I think this comment encapsulates the issue -
"What would you rather do - fund someone now to get preventative treatment and advice that, for example, prevents them becoming a diabetic, or fund the same person later when they become a full blown diabetic and require a lifetime of treatment?"
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sf2k
Odogma,
wow, subterfuge much?
The comment on USSR was that Americans fear big government, and this relates to their fear of gov't healthcare. But somehow forget at the same moment that medicare/medicaid already exits, that they have a vote, and it's their own representatives who engage and enact laws. If you don't like them change them, but not under the disguise of bad government. It's your vote. Right now the Democrats have the majority thus their laws go through. If you don't like that, then don't vote for them. That's democracy. You'll get your turn next time. That's fairness.
No doubt your next reply will note another way in which you can miss the point. But this is getting unnecessarily negative and beyond how I was conducting myself here.
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SushiSake3
Sail - "Barack Obama hasn't backed down from the republican leadership. He hasn't given his health care proposal to the trash man and grabbed a blank piece of clean paper to start all over."
Likely because that would be one of the most backward steps he could take.
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skipthesong
Maintaining a relatively healthy population is not only good for people, it also mkes very good economic sense." Ok, there's not doubt about that, but I already have lived a strict healthy life. Since getting out of the army (which I was in the med field) more than 13 years ago, I've been a vegetarian, I never get sick, I exercise almost every day and I even walk 35 mins to work as long as its not raining. I don't smoke, hardly ever drink. My only problem is breathing this Tokyo air. I've done my part and that includes paying into the system. What is with you guys trying to drain us? I don't know why you think money grows on trees.
Now, once this is in place, are you going to allow me to dictate a healthy lifestyle? or are you then going to say I'm the one being intrusive. How about giving credits for those of us who are examples of healthy living?
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skipthesong
Conservatives in general are absolutely PETRIFIED of government control, it's almost laughable."
You know, I don't know why you call me conservative because I don't agree with you on a number of issues. I certainly wouldn't call myself that. But fearing government control, yup. I am. What happens if the repubs, the guys you wish death upon, happen to gain control, would you be happy then too?
So, call me what you want. I want a much smaller government than what we have now. I know we can't go 100% that way, but as minimal as possible. You are forgetting I was a soldier and I also worked as a government employee........ I've seen enough stupidity and I have no confidence in the government running health care because the VA sure as heck couldn't do it and neither could the public health.
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Odogma
CNN, who have been in Obama's corner since he won the primary in Iowa in 2008 are saying this:
"This is the last helicopter out of Saigon, OK?"
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cleo
All that healthy living is to be commended. It's an example everyone should follow.
Can you please explain, so that all the yet-to-be-born babies can follow your excellent example and escape the scourge of socialised healthcare, exactly what it was you did to ensure that you were born healthy, with all your moving parts in good working order and with a minimum of glitches in your software and hard wiring? How did you stop yourself being born autistic? With spina bifida? A hole in the heart? With limbs missing or atrophied?With haemophilia? A cleft lip? Conjoined to a twin?
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skipthesong
cleo: psst. I lived a good past life! Oh, you don't believe in that do you?
now, would you explain how the US, not any other country, but the US gov is going to stop all those ailments? Oh, and again, none of the your post is covered yet in the bill and those with such conditions will now have to pay more for them. Or where you only going by what The Huff writes?
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skipthesong
wait a second cleo: All those things you mentioned, most of the treatment available has come out of the US and most of the research as well. I know this because I would love to be able to re-sell that data, its a gold mine. Now, would you rather invest in someone who is going to try to find cures and causes of these who is looking for profit at the end of the tunnel or would you rather pay some gov worker or worse, a politician who going to slow down the process or better yet pay a politician who finds he's wrong and hides the data???????
diablo!
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cleo
skip -
No idea what The Huff says, no idea in fact what the details of the healthcare deal are, not really interested except for a curiosity as to why people would get so upset about something that's for the good of all. I think it's called the 'Turkeys voting for Christmas syndrome'.
It isn't like US healthcare is ever going to affect me personally. Just giving you a bit of a cyber slap up the back of the head for what is coming across as a heavy dose of IARJ. The US can research all the cures it likes, if the people who need them can't afford them, they're worthless. (If rich people got malaria, it would have been eradicated long before smallpox.)
So all the sickly babies are sick because they are reincarnations of bad people? Dangerous ground there, skip. I'm not going down that path.
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skipthesong
Take a three-day break from this thread and read the 2000+ pages." provide updated and unbiased link of it. Right now I can only find Oct 29 and that's on the Huff.
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cleo
The only thing I've commented on is skip's attitude regarding people in need of health care. Take a two-minute break and actually read the posts before you cast nasturtiums.
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skipthesong
hey yo cleo, That's not really a fair statement. I cut a lot off margins and even sold things at cost to clinics up and down the east coast before I came to Japan. I ain't got a whole lot of money, but I do give quite a bit, in my eyes to charity. I've volunteered as a paramedic for a while before I decided what to do after 9-11. I think I've been there with a hand out a lot more than quite a few. You are painting this picture of me as some greedy guy.
All I am saying is THIS BILL and a government take over is my concern. If there is a reasonable way for the health care industry to cut costs I'm all for it. I also think a lot of people don't understand the insurance sector and have gone on some band wagon about how evil and greedy they are. have you gone to a movie lately? You see how much left leaning stars pull in? why not have them cut their take? how about sports, tv, and music?????
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cleo
skip -
No, you are painting that picture of yourself. And I don't think it fits with the picture I at least have of you from your other posts on other topics. Hence the poke.
Giving to charity is fine, but charity is charity. People in a rich country shouldn't have to rely on charity.
As for the left-leaning stars (and their right-leaning buddies, let's not get political here) - If they're pulling in so much then I would imagine they'd be paying a proportionate amount in taxes. If you have a healthcare system in which premiums are based on income, they'd pay a proportionate sum into that, too. And if they're pulling it in hand over fist and feel they're too good to use the public service, no doubt they can afford to go private, freeing up more resources for those who are busy earning a living. If the filthy rich can choose to opt out, then premiums for everyone else will needs be higher.
brotokyo -
Yes, why don't you? And see that every post is addressed to skip, and does not discuss Obama and his healthcare deal. I wouldn't comment on it because, as I've said, I don't know anything about it.
Now the Mod is going to wake up and delete every one of my posts for being Off Topic because they're not about Obama. Bummer.
Oh dear! bro, you have no idea. No way any village is going to interfere in the way I raise my kids, thank you very much.
Moderator: All readers back on topic please.
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skipthesong
let's get back on topic.
What is it in this bill, this bill alone that has some many so hyped to pass immediately? I hearing about abortions, and if abortions are included, several pro-life dems won't sign on...... "If"??? so they haven't read it and they don't know? That's just one example of the issues I have with this. If we are looking out for fellow Americans, sure insurance is what is needed to reform and that would include a lot of gov regs place on them a long time ago.
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brotokyo
Skip: I saw in the news several months ago where a 40 something year old American man, who had lost his job and consequently former health insurance, joined the US army so that he and his family could have health insurance, especially important for his very sick wife. He was on his way to war. While I found that story so very sad, I, nonetheless, applaud the man for not looking for a handout. While I won't argue with Cleo that there are some who have not had a level-playing field, there are far too many who would prefer living on the dole simply because it is available.
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cleo
Wise. You're learning :-)
'the dole'? What does the UK system of unemployment benefits have to do with healthcare, in the US or anywhere else?
That's not sad, it's disgusting, that a man should be forced to go and possibly kill people he has no argument with, in order to pay for healthcare for his family. And what would his very sick wife do when he gets himself killed? Go on the dole, maybe? Wait for charity? Or should she sign up to be cannon fodder, too?
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Taka313
Credit where credit is due, Skip. That was a good comeback. I don't necessarily agree with your argument, but your comeback to Cleo was funny as hell.
Taka
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Sarge
"Support from his own party in doubt...
What's up with that?
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ca1ic0cat
You can always find a hard luck case that you want to help but; first, this bill might not help. I doesn't cover all the currently uninsured. Second, more people will lose their jobs as a trillion dollar bite is taken out of the economy. This bill does not do the job; in fact it just lines the pockets of the vested interests.
I'm not saying the republicans could do a better job but doing a lousy job would be worse. Chuck Shumer, Reid, Pelosi, Lieberman,Gingrich, and their followers under the bus and start over. It might be better to dust off Hillarycare and use that as a starting point. At least that didn't pander to the vested interests. Which (along with how it was presented - bad job that) was why it was shot down.
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brotokyo
yes the dole: guess your dictionary has only one definition.
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SushiSake3
Sarge, glad to see you enter the conversation and great to see you supporting this healthcare bill.
Keep it up.
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usaexpat
Seize the moment and pass the great insuarnce company bailout. Don't come crying when you lose the majority because you stuck this bad piece of legislation through with a procedural tactic. I'm really dissappointed that more Democrats aren't standing up to this half baked mess. This is not the reform we want, it doesn't control costs, probably won't have a public option and only eneriches the insurance companies.
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adaydream
We all know that some of the GOP suggestions are pretty good, but their suggestion to stop this madness and start all over was don't during Clinton's first term. I never saw it brought back up by them.
Then after the news about the GOP fear mongering powerpoint training slides we know that the GOP stories are wrong just to scare the American people.
It was one thing for the democrats to say they are fear mongering. It's another when them to take it a step farther by putting together that kind of slides that prove it. < :-)
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Molenir
I've been thinking a lot lately about this issue. And I've got a question for all you posters here. Do you think people have a Right to health care? Seriously. Does everyone have a right to receive health care? And when it comes down to it, who should pay for that right? For that matter, what other rights do you think people have? I mean the commonly quoted. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. Free Education? Privacy? A Job? What rights do you think people have, or should have, and who is it that grants them these rights? Seriously.
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HeyLars
Molenir, I understand your sentiments and its not an easy question. Let me ask you back, do children have the right to receive health care? That is how easy it is to make the question hard to answer.
Another aspect is that I do not think it is a basic right, but more of a right we can afford to grant. I think it beats the heck out of the right of a person to hoard enough gold and land all for himself, on a scale that matches some small countries in both areas. But Americans seem to defend that right a lot. I would happily see that man "reduced" to half a small country so that even the lowliest bum gets his syphilis treated. The rich guy will live. Half a country should be enough for any man.
One more thing to think about is that health care costs less if problems are detected early. So it helps us to at least make things like annual check-ups a right that the government foots because it saves all of us money in the end. Its either that or give hospitals the right to refuse treatement, and I don't think you want that if you find yourself robbed of all your ID and shot and the hospital says "Well, we don't know if he can pay so let him die!".
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Molenir
I believe it is a simple question. What rights do you think we have? What rights should we have, and who is it that grants these rights? Its a complex issue, but a very simple question. To my mind, it cuts to the heart of this issue, and many other issues.
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Wolfpack
Sushi:
I got news for you Sushi - the Founding Fathers feared government and that is why America exists. The Consitution is based on negative rights - things the government cannot do. Whenever the government has the power to give you something, it has the power to take it away as well. They are rioting in Greece and Spain now because the people became dependent upon their government and now that the government cannot afford generous benefits anymore, they are necessarily attempting to scale them back. Americans today are becoming aware of the false security of big brother and have rejected ObamaCare.
Try as they might, the Democrats are tilting at windmills by continuously pushing their ideological health care plan. It was supposed to be Jobs Job Jobs! But no, it's still health care. It's over, give up on this stupidity and focus on the economy - that's what the American people want. ObamaCare is dead.
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Wolfpack
HeyLars:
What gives you the right to say how much is enough for any person? Each person should be allowed to decide that for themselves. It's called freedom. What if someone in power were to decide that you deserve much less than what you believe you should be allowed to have? What you end up with is a country where the vast majority of the people live in poverty and a small number of government elites enjoy the priviledges that power provides them. Any decision about how much wealth any one person can have will always be subjective and different for each person.
This isn't necessarily true although I do agree that it is a good idea to get regular checkups. The problem with this is that to test everyone for any and all of the most expensive deseases costs a great deal and studies have shown them to be more expensive than treating those much fewer number of people that actually get the desease. It would be better for those people without health coverage to give up cablevision, iPods, cell phones, and all of the other "can't live without items" of modern life and buy some health coverage so they can get preventative care. However, people are free to make their own choices and many choose unwisely. The government should only be concerned with the 10 million or so that are truly poor and cannot afford health care.
It is illegal in the US for any hospital to deny life saving care to any person regardless of their ability to pay. Hospitals spend a great deal of money providing free health care.
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sf2k
Please do nothing. There is nothing worse than happy people going through the motions of regular checkups and reducing their rick factors all at an affordable price that no one could afford on their own.
Please pay nothing. There is nothing worse than paying your bills and preventing indentured servitude to the largest totalitarian state bank account that you helped build and pay into your whole life and in a way your forebears could never justify.
Please say nothing. I'm sure your mega-millionaire representatives have your best interests at heart and tell you so day and night and not the multinational corporations in which they kneel to every morning
Good Night, and Good Luck
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sf2k
Please question everything. If it's too good to be true, it is. Get what you want out of it but forgo the conspiracy theory OMG GOvt is in CONTRol mindnumbing logic. They are already in control, by you the voter.
Please be patient. Gov't bills are actually pretty complicated and if the principle is sound then great while applying the screws to the insurance companies. If you don't feel it works, that's okay, but have a reason why.
Please try again. If truly this bill cannot be passed it doesn't mean that other similar bills also cannot be passed. Look to the future where America is a part of a world of lower medical bills that are not forwarded by American profiteers but medical advances for the sake of people.
Good Night and Good Luck
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Gombei424Canada
sfk2:"Good Night and Good Luck"
Bingo!It's refreshing to know I am not the ONLY Keith Olbermann fan on this website.Keith is fabulous(almost as fab as Barack), and I just know he is pulling his hardest for Barack,and he is really stroking opinion in favour of passing this bill.Extreme kudos for including him in the struggle.
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Sarge
Sushi, what makes you think I support this debacle?
Gombei at 4:25 PM - Good one.
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sf2k
a cogent note from another site:
"""Taxes are only collected by the government. The PUBLIC imposes taxes upon themselves to be used for the public good. That is why we have an infrastructure, hospitals.... The PUBLIC votes for individuals to monitor and spend this collected Tax Money in the best interest of the PUBLIC. Unfortunately, often times those that have been voted in ABUSE the public's trust and spend this money frivolously, thus not providing for the public good. That is called Politics.""" End civics lesson.
If American's keep thinking government is bad, then it is out of their own poor choices in voting surely. But if they think that having a more controlled health care is in the public interest, then it's nothing to be scared of. You're a voter, you're in charge.
Now that the Democrats are in charge they will act. When the Republicans were in charge they acted. It's fair. If during a general election later people want to repeal the law, get a majority to do it. If you can't then move on and recognize closure.
I know it's not my country but it's always fascinating to explore why Americans think they are free, when they insist upon another group of citizens not to be.
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elbudamexicano
I pray one day the USA will join the rest of the modern western countries that all have health care as a BASIC RIGHT for their citizens. I am sure folks who were or are in the US military know they can go to a dentist etc..all for free thanks to our TAXES, but once you get out of the military it is a whole different ball game, oh, let me not forget if you are a rich fat cat in the US Senate or Congress, you can also have the best medical services in the modern world and then you can vote to give yourself a raise right?
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