Obama says economic stimulus bill vital to avoid 'catastrophe'

Tuesday 10th February, 06:32 AM JST

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HeathenCabin at 01:41 AM JST - 11th February

"Schumacher's "Small is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered."

Groovy stuff, man. I got my first copy when I was 16.

I have never heard of this- but searches make it out to be some type of environmentalist economic thought...
30061015 at 02:27 AM JST - 11th February

it grossly underestimates the future wealth-creating capacity of the nation

All markets depend on consumer confidence and projected earnings. The US has the lowest savings rate of any industrial nation. "Wealth creation" has been the myth of endless home equity lines of credit to refinance everything under the sun, including Wall Street. Any new "wealth creation" (debt driven froth) is no match for the fundamental systemic rot in banking, decades of Wall Street scamongering, the mortgage meltdown and credit crisis, dollar devaluation and job destruction, as the tsunami eventually sucks bankrupt nations out to sea.
yabits at 02:38 AM JST - 11th February

All of the gains are from private individuals/businesses in some way or another you just never see the connection(the need for efficient travel->wheels=>sailing ships/carriages=>steam engines, and so on and so on, government did not invent nor create these things-and it is only 1 example at that!!!!).

To use a modern example, are you saying that governments have had no involvement in space travel? That everything done in going to the moon was all done in order to satisfy market needs? How about the Internet? That started out as a government project to connect computers together, completely funded by the government in the 1960s.

One can go back in history and see that, in order to make his way to the New World, one of the first things Columbus had to do was to seek a government handout.

Without the individuals, and businesses, continuously striving for efficiency/gains/advances for human satisfaction of wants is what actually causes "basic research."

It is you who simply don't know any better. Most basic research is done for the sake of pure knowledge, and a lot of the stuff that comes out of it individuals may not know how to apply for decades, if ever. Individuals and business work on much shorter time horizons and expect a more specific and definite return.
yabits at 02:55 AM JST - 11th February

All markets depend on consumer confidence and projected earnings.

And what kind of confidence can be built on economic practices that are not sustainable and ultimately self-destructive? If we could turn back the clock, what part of the cycle of self-delusion that has led us to the edge of catastrophe would we like to return to?

"Wealth creation" has been the myth of endless home equity lines of credit to refinance everything under the sun...

Just because wealth creation has been plied into myths does not mean that wealth creation itself is a myth. It requires an examination into the fundamental facts of nature and of the human condition.
HeathenCabin at 03:20 AM JST - 11th February

To use a modern example, are you saying that governments have had no involvement in space travel? That everything done in going to the moon was all done in order to satisfy market needs? How about the Internet? That started out as a government project to connect computers together, completely funded by the government in the 1960s.

One can go back in history and see that, in order to make his way to the New World, one of the first things Columbus had to do was to seek a government handout.

t is you who simply don't know any better. Most basic research is done for the sake of pure knowledge, and a lot of the stuff that comes out of it individuals may not know how to apply for decades, if ever. Individuals and business work on much shorter time horizons and expect a more specific and definite return.

It is you, yes you yabits who does not know any better. You cannot see that all the funding and research, the sacrifices, came from the private markets in order to let the government succeed in going to the moon. The redirection/theft and destruction/reduction of available resources/capital/wealth/education funded it all, and it all came from the "private markets," or you know, the people who produce everything based on the want to be satisfied.

Columbus seeking a government handout- guess what again, it was funded by the individuals who are successful who pay taxes/were robbed to the government in its many different forms, even back then. Yes, you cannot see that the GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE WITHOUT STEALING IT FROM THE PRIVATE SOURCES/INDIVIDUALS/BUSINESSES. You only see the effect of government theft from other parts of the economy at the time, without realizing what might have been.

You think that government is good, that all advancements come from government, without even realizing that all the resources, all the wealth, has actually and will forever be the reason for success and failure of whatever you state the government needs/succeeds in doing. It is you who is delusional-
yabits at 04:00 AM JST - 11th February

The redirection/theft and destruction/reduction of available resources/capital/wealth/education funded [space exploration], and it all came from the "private markets," or you know, the people who produce everything based on the want to be satisfied.

I am glad you agree that it was the government that redirected funds to stimulate space exploration.

Now, any knowledge and advancements -- things that would not have been possible without the government redirection -- that end up getting turned into valuable materials and products will have that original government redirection to thank for it.

You think that government is good...

As long as there is more than one individual on this planet, there will be government. Good or bad, it's a reality. I believe government can be made good, especially when it acts to prevent or limit the destructiveness of individuals who are only out for themselves and give no thought to impact of their actions.

that all advancements come from government

No. I never said something so absolutist. It appears to be you who has taken the absolute position that no advancement has ever come from the actions taken by government.
yabits at 04:18 AM JST - 11th February

The Senate just passed the stimulus package. Three Republican "mavericks," and not John McCain, voted with the Democrats and Independents.
Good_Jorb at 04:45 AM JST - 11th February

Individuals and business work on much shorter time horizons and expect a more specific and definite return.

Yes, by applying for intellectual rights from government funded organizations, using binding contracts that are legally enforceable in a government funded court of law, transporting thier goods on government paid for infrastructure and relying government funded police, firefighters and utilities to keep them safe and running.

Yes, you cannot see that the GOVERNMENT HANDOUTS WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN POSSIBLE WITHOUT STEALING IT FROM THE PRIVATE SOURCES/INDIVIDUALS/BUSINESSES.

If the government hadn't given Columbus handouts, then those PRIVATE SOURCES/INDIVIDUALS/BUSINESSES would not have benefited from the wealth found in the new world. It would be doubtful that any private individual would fund Columbus's expediation give the risk, size and if government didn't exist lack of enforceable contract law.
ca1ic0cat at 06:10 AM JST - 11th February

I'm not sure that the horse hasn't already bolted the barn but I wish Obama all the luck in the world on this one. It sucks to be unemployed and I wouldn't wish it on anybody.

I just wonder where they are going to get the money from. We're talking $1.5 trillion in spending in the last six months and that doesn't count Iraq or Afganistan. This could all result in hyperinflation if things get out of control. That would really get ugly.
adaydream at 07:31 AM JST - 11th February

Barack Obama is the right leader at this time to help get us out of the place we were in because we allowed the free market to run unabated. We watched the free market go about it and watched them collapse from their creative accounting and theft.

Then we listen to posters here tell us how the market can get us back out of where we're at now. And they are so sure that their way is the right way. Well guys your side had that chance and it buckled at the knees.

Sit back now and allow the democrats to show you how it's done when your side failed. < :-)
Molenir at 08:21 AM JST - 11th February

Barack Obama is the right leader at this time to help get us out of the place we were in because we allowed the free market to run unabated. We watched the free market go about it and watched them collapse from their creative accounting and theft.

He's the right leader to lead us in the direction no one but socialists and communists want the country to go. Unfortunately he is not the person to lead on the subject of economic reform and despite being called a "Stimulus" package, its going to end up having a negative effect on the economy.

Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed, that if a budget stays the same or the increase just matches inflation, its called a cut, if a measure is going to have a negative effect, its called a "Stimulus" and something thats designed to stifle free speech is called "Fairness". In my opinion, Democrats have got their labels mixed up.
GJDailleult at 08:39 AM JST - 11th February

Banking industry wasn't really broken. It had some problems that needed to be addressed,

Hey hey, that is what I was saying to my wife at the ATM outside the casino on our holiday. "I'm not really broke, I just have some problems I need to address." They are broken, and broken banking systems destroy money and wealth. Very simple stuff. As for the never-ending "all government is bad" stuff their is a very simple solution. Create a special tax waiver. In exchange for not having to pay any tax or have any dealings with the evil government, the individual agrees to make no use of any government services. Problem solved!!!
yabits at 08:49 AM JST - 11th February

Speaking of which, has anyone else noticed, that if a budget stays the same or the increase just matches inflation, its called a cut...

I have long been aware of that, but I understand that whether a budget item is a cut or not is determined by whether or not the project allocation matches the projected need.
wuzzademcrat at 10:16 AM JST - 11th February

yabits: "The Senate just passed the stimulus package. Three Republican "mavericks," and not John McCain, voted with the Democrats and Independents."

Independents?

Nice try.

3 RINOs sided with a Democrat majority that couldn't produce a single dissenter to the worst piece of financial legislation since the 30s.

The porkulus is theirs. They own it - lock, stock, and barrel.
yabits at 12:26 AM JST - 12th February

One of those Independents, Joe Lieberman, was prominently featured at the Republican Convention, and was even under consideration as the running mate for the party.

You can go back to praying that the stimulus package will fail.