Palestinians angered by Netanyahu peace terms
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0
adaydream
Well, we saw Israel's first move.
First step of the dance. < :-)
0
skipthesong
he put up something that to date no one has. It has been left open. Go to the negotiation table instead of out right rejecting it.
Why should he meet all DEMANDS at step one?
Jerusalem was a Jewish capital. It should have stayed that way a long time ago!
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kinniku
Actually, one thing that is particularly glaring is the lack of any mention of Hamas. Abbas and Netanyahu can trade quotes and comments all they like, but they are both ignoring the giant unmoving elephant that is Hamas. Even if these two were to agree right off the bat (of course completely unlikely), it would not mean very much if they both cannot figure out a way to get Hamas into the mix.
skip, I agree that it is a largely overlooked part of Netanyahu's speech that he even says he would be willing to have an independent Palestinian state. I don't think he has ever said that before.
Instead of either side rejecting each other, they should be made to sit down together and talk it out and Hamas should be made to sit there with them as well.
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skipthesong
kinniku: That is exactly what I am saying!
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kinniku
skip,
Yes, I know. It would be nice if both the Israelis and the Palestinians would start to focus on the positives in each others' statements (when they exist anyway!). However, we will probably be waiting for a while still for that to happen unfortunately.
0
sabiwabi
Wow, what a positive and balanced sounding comment. Unfortunately, this is not a balanced situation. Its like saying "it would be nice if we look at the positive side of the holocaust". In other words, there are some things that must be aggressively condemned and not look at their positive side.
0
Helter_Skelter
A Palestinian state. Now we can add another worthless Muslim Arab state to the 22 existing worthless Muslim Arab states. What a waste of land.
0
kinniku
Ummm...thank you. However, it was not what you refer to as 'a positive and balanced sounding comment'. It was in fact a positive and balanced comment full stop. Although I can imagine how it might be difficult for you to recognize balance and positivity since you seem to lack them yourself, especially regarding the topic at hand.
Again, this is your problem in being able to fully understand the situation at hand. It is not nessessary for a situation itself to be balance in order to have (or at least make an honest attempt at) a balanced opinion of said situation.
That is quite a curious attempt at an analogy considering your past excuses for Nazi behaviour in WWII, your suggestion that you would not be surprised to find that Hitler was actually a 'nice guy', and the fact that you have never been able to aggressively condemn Nazi behaviour in WWII in your comments about that period of history.
Although there are indeed 'some things' that 'must be aggessively condemned', logical people clearly realize both sides have a right to exist and both sides need to learn to respect each others right to exist.
Both Israelis and Palestinians need to be made to understand in positive and clear terms both can comprehend that further fighting and anger with accomplish nothing but a continuation of violence and hate. A two state solution is the only way to end the cycle of violence.
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kinniku
Helter,
None of us can know or say with any accuracy what kind of state the Palestinians will make. However, it is their right to make whatever state they wish to. One would hope it will be a nation that knows the ways of peace and prosperity and is able to provide them to its people.
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Helter_Skelter
Sure we can.
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kinniku
No, we can make educated guesses based on previous experience and history of the region. However, a Palestinian state would be unique because of the need for continuous cooperation between Palestine and Israel on a daily basis. This would make it much more difficult for the kinds of cool peace seen between Egypt or Jordan and Israel.
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JoeBigs
How can you say that? Before Israel was a state many of their founding members were terrorist trying to win independence for themselves.
So your base argument that a Palestinian would be worthless is deeply flawed.
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Helter_Skelter
"Palestinians" are Muslim Arabs. Look at the Muslim Arab world. I rest my case.
0
kinniku
Helter,
To paint any one group of people with one brush based solely on their religion or ethnicity is what is known in the civilized world as 'racism'. If that is the only true basis for your argument, it is indeed a flawed one. In addition, as JoeBigs correctly points out, there are in fact many countries that were founded by people who were thought to be 'terrorists' at the time (and they actually were mostly terrorists, at least to the targets of their actions). Of course, no one person would ever or should ever condone the killing of innocents. There is no argument about this. However, the reality still remains that revolution can be and many times has taken the shape of terrorism.
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Helter_Skelter
The civilized world has created political correctness in which the truth has now become "racist". But by all means, tell me the great contributions to the world made by the Muslim Arabs in the last five hundred years. Tell me about all the democracies and thriving economies of the 22 Arab nations. Tell me about the great civil rights and enlightment of these nations.
You can't because they are failed nations. If it weren't for their oil wealth, their socioeconomic status would be that of Sub-Sahara Africa. A "Palestinian" state would be no different. Yet, for some reason, you think this state is going to be different. As a usual admirer of your posts, on this one you sound like one of those leftists who lives in a world of wishful thinking.
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kinniku
Helter,
I actually have no idea whether it will be different or not. I only offer the possibility that it could be.
As you already must know, I am not attempting to defend the lack of civil rights or enlightenment etc in any country. However, there are an awful lot of what might be considered by some or even many as 'failed nations'. They are not solely countries of one religion or another. There are even some that might be considered so in Asia.
It is not a matter of me taking up a 'leftist' point of view or even of wishful thinking (although I will readily admit to being wishful about the prospect of a future state of Palestine)as it is me being willing to judge the future state of Palestine on its own. You are passing judgement on a country that does not even exist yet and sadly it seems you are basing this on the religion of some of that future countries citizens. That is where we disagree.
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Helter_Skelter
Yup, I'm basing it on the religion and culture. And I have a good data set to make such an opinion. I too wish the "Palestinians" would create a productive state that lives at peace with its neighbor. But you don't need a degree in political science to know the likelihood of this is zero. Netanyahu knows this and it's why he smartly insists that any new Palestinian state be demilitarized.
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kinniku
Helter,
Wouldn't it be better to base it on specific actions, plans of action or laws of this new Palestinian state? If someone were to say to me, 'I disagree with Country A because they have instituted such and such a policy or law. This would be a valid argument against Country A even if I were to disagree with said argument. However, I do not think it becomes civilized people to make judgements based on culture or religion, be they judgements about people or countries.
Personally, I think Netanyahu did make a much ignored leap ahead with his statement of the acceptance of an independent Palestinian state. People who wish to poo-poo this will say it is not enough. Of course, this is true. However, it is a step forward and it would be nice if it lead to further steps. Unfortunately, I am pretty sure those steps will still be a while in coming.
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Helter_Skelter
Well, the attempt to democratize the "Palestinians" resulted in the election of the terrorist group Hamas. Look at the failure of nation building occurring in Iraq. The Western paradigm of democracy that you experience doesn't translate to these countries. So the actions and laws of the Palestinian state will inevitably be like every other Muslim Arab state.
Even if they're true? One can never understand and solve problems if they're not based on the truth. There are far too many serious problems in the world to solve without having to be worried about being "unbecoming".
0
kinniku
These do not have anything to do with the religions of the people in these countries. It has to do with failed policies with regard to the people. Again, there are similar failures all over the world. That clearly shows us these are not religiously based failures. The Palestinian Authority did a horrible job of taking care of the needs of its people in favor of lining Arafat's pockets and continued its lousy job even after Arafat died. Hamas, on the other hand, did provide social services to its people (in addition to providing terror to Israel). That is why they won. It was less Hamas winning than the PA losing. It was in fact the PA's to lose. In Iraq, the US (mainly) did an absolutely horrible job of maintaining the country after the war (the initial one anyway) finished. That is the failure there to a great degree.
Maybe so, maybe not. Each country in the ME has a different degree of democracy. You cannot compare Jordan to Saudi Arabia for example.
Again, this is possible. However, I think if there is an independent state of Palestine, it will have no choice but to have a closer relationship with Israel than other countries. If they are not willing to do so, Israel will never agree to their terms.
Short answer? Yes. Long answer? Even if you think they are 'true', they are racist. Just because you know an African with good rhythm does not mean all Africas have good rhythm. Just because you know a cheapskate Scottish person does not mean all Scottish are cheap. Just because there are terrorists of a certain faith, it does not follow that all those of that faith are terrorists. So, yes these statements are racist because they are solely based on race, religion or ethnicity.
Yes, and there are far too many serious problems in the world to solve without having to lower the discussion into a race and/or religion based accusation-fest. Better to speak specifically about specific concerns rather than broad generalizations that cannot and will not lead to productive discussion on solutions.
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Helter_Skelter
No, the US did a horrible job in believing it could occupy an Islamic Muslim nation and instill Western ideals. Like you, there was wishful thinking into believe this country could be transformed into a thriving democracy. Countries like these actually operate better under dictatorships and monarchies. What happened in Iraq after the invasion was predictable.
Is saying Asians are intelligent hard working people also racist, or is racism defined only when you say negative things? I believe there are common characteristics of the people within a race, religion or ethnicity. I do believe some generalizations can be made which are true. It's certainly not PC. But it tells me that a Palestinian state is not going to be the panacea some anticipate, nor will it solve the Palestinian's problems or Israel's.
0
kinniku
There are two problems with this argument. One, the US did not really 'occupy' Iraq in the immediate aftermath of the war in the same way they did in Japan, for example. That was a real occupation. Two, 'Western ideals' and democracy are not neccessarily mutual inclusive. The fact is the US did not take complete immediate control over Iraq right away and that was a major failure. Had they done the same thing in Japan, it would have failed in Japan, too.
Based on the US's lack of solid action right away, yes, it was unfortunately very predictable.
Yes, it is. People should be judged on their merits and not what their race, religion, etc is. Although it sounds like a compliment, you are basically saying to someone that it is only natural they are intelligent hard working people if they are Asian. It is basically a left-handed compliment and does not fully respect the individuals achievments. This is not about being 'PC'. Think about if someone complimented you and added, 'But, well, you are part of 'such and such' a group, so that is why it is true.' You probably would feel less (or not at all) complimented than if they just complimented you directly. In addition, if you have ever lived in Asia, you would know there are just as many non-intelligent lazy people here than anywhere. Generalization, while sometimes having some truth, take away from individuality and as such are not particularly accurate in the real world. There are way too many exceptions to each generalization.
Well, I never said it would be a panacea. I quoted a Jordanian Middle East expert on another thread in which he stated that peace between Israel and Palestine would probably have little or no affect on the Middle East at large. However, I do think it would solve the majority of Israel and Palestine's problems with each other and I think that would be a major improvement over the present situation.
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