Pro-Russian rebels reject Ukraine peace deal; launch new offensive

@Burning Bush Or on planet Earth we can see that Ukraine is fighting large parts of the Russian army. No cause no matter how noble can prevail against those odds.

Then it is time to send in NATO and hit the criminals hard. They are Russians and caving into them will lead to complete surrender of Ukraine. It is fight or die if not which country will Russia attack next?

According to NATO there no more than 13000 Russo Ukrainians and Russian volunteers combined. There are almost 200000 Ukrainian army against them and that is not counting thousands of "instructors" from EU and USA. So why are they not able to as Poroshenko says "punch their teeth out". From the beginning of this conflict Poroshenko and his cronies are addressing Eastern Ukrainians as Enemy, Criminals and Terrorist and while the Easterners wanted to negotiate a settlement Poroshenko and his western minders kept refusing it. They wanted to settle it by crushing the opposition regardless of the cost of lives, most of this lives are Russian speaking so who cares. Now suddenly Kiev added the word peace to its dictionary, little to late.

Pro Russian rebels, Russian backed separatists, insurgents their Putins army occuping Ukraine, soviet style, creating a buffer state between Russia and the West. The Russian special forces, heavy weapons, advanced anti aircraft systems are more than sufficient yo counter any response from Ukraines regular army.

Ukraine is no match for Russian ground forces, recent rebel offensives are Russian planned and implemented with Russian troops, this is evident in how thuggish separatist leader Alexander Zakharchenko had the militarily capability to gain full control of Donetsk and Luhansk and eventually for President Putin to create a 'land bridge' to Crimea, so Russian troops can roll ever-deeper into Ukraine. Freedom fighters, pull the other one this is Moscow return to a cold war in Europe.

@JoeInTokyo

pro-democracy freedom fighters

By that do you mean anti-democracy Russians?

Now suddenly Kiev added the word peace to its dictionary, little to late.

Typical Russian propaganda. "You said something bad in the past, therefore our complete genocide of your people is justified!!!!" Fact is, you don't want peace and Zakharachenko doesn't want peace. Peace will require getting full NATO troops up to the border of Donbass, apparently.

It's not the soldiers; it's the heavy equipment that matters. The heavy equipment the Eastern Ukrainian forces use were not taken from fleeing Ukrainian forces since Ukrainian equipment are dilapidated. Those heavy equipment has to have come from somewhere else. Russian borders letting thru human "volunteers" is one thing; letting thru heavy equipment is a whole 'nother level. Either the porous Russian borders are incompetent in letting thru so many heavy equipment, or they're complicit. It shouldn't be that easy for any heavy equipment to pass thru "international" borders.

The heavy equipment the Eastern Ukrainian forces use were not taken from fleeing Ukrainian forces since Ukrainian equipment are dilapidated. Not so, look at the pictures. Both sides use identical hardware.

Knock, knock... who's there? Putin. Putin who? Nobama.

When a Russian feels any foreign pressure, he will never give up his leader,” Shuvalov said Friday. “We will survive any hardship in the country — eat less food, use less electricity.”

The tone and language is classic soviet rhetoric, vintage Brezhnev, it was strength of the Russian people that ended the Brezhnev era. Like wise it will be the same fortitude that will be the undoing of President Putin, the Russian population don't want a return to the past Soviet planning and economies.

@Burning Bush

For those who don't know, the OSCE, a European NGO has been stationed at the border in the separatists for months now and they've confirmed that no Russian military equipment has crossed the border.

I've seen the videos on CNN. Only the KGBs masterful spin doctors could fake those. As for the Ukraine government, it is showing all signs of being pro-democracy and pro-EU. This is in stark contrast to Russia which is anti-democratic and anti-EU. It is clear which side is morally superior.

Those who accuse Ukraine of being a Nazi state fall straight into the Godwin's law trap. A few points:

Many Ukrainians did cooperate with the Nazis, but that was 70 years ago and in the context of Ukraine seeking independence from Russia;

Far-right parties failed to pass a 5% percent barrier to enter the Ukrainian parliament;

Volodymyr Groysman, speaker of parliament and the third most powerful position in the country after the president and prime minister, is Jewish.

Not to say that there are not far-right groups with neo-Nazi ties - and that many of their members would not naturally be involved with this fight of national survival - but the same could be said of most any European country, particularly Russia, which is about as fascist as countries come these days.

Please, stick to the facts and avoid the Nazi rhetoric.

itsonlyrocknroll Pro Russian rebels, Russian backed separatists, insurgents their Putins army occuping Ukraine, soviet style, creating a buffer state between Russia and the West. The Russian special forces, heavy weapons, advanced anti aircraft systems are more than sufficient yo counter any response from Ukraines regular army.

And one more time south- east Ukraine is a industrial region with Russian population ( about 10 millions)

They fighting not for Putin's glory but for their homes

Russian -are better fighters in Europe at least - so no surprise that when Russian from Donbass received enough

artillery , tanks and ammo - they are able to crash army of Ukrainian nationalists

The so called "peace " was broken by Ukrainian artillery attack along the entire front

And today Russian militias successfully attacking Ukrainian Army at many points

The problem of Ukrainian nationalistic army - low moral (most of the soldiers - forced to join army and very scared)

Very bad organisation and corruption

Not enough food , no medical support

The map of conflict :

http://militarymaps.info/

Burning Bush, please read what I wrote: it is true that hyper-nationalist elements exist, but they exist on both sides - and, arguably, more so on the Russian side.

Instructive might be a look at Belarus, arguably Ukraine's twin. The president, Alexander Lukashenko has been in power since 1994 (remember Clinton?) largely because he has continued many Soviet-era policies such as state ownership of large sections of the economy; brooks no political opposition (his opponent in 2006, Alaksandar Milinkievič, was detained and beaten by police; he won his forth term by 80% to 3% to the runner-up in an election Russia called fair, after which rival presidential candidates and protestors were beaten and arrested by the state militia and sentenced to prison); and toadies to his Russian overlords.

This is Putin's vision of Ukraine: a Russian satellite state which enserfs its workers and toes the line. How Ukraine will turn out if left to its own devices is unknowable, but it certainly could not be worse than Putin's plan.

Hi Olegek, If Russian were genuinely recognised as a equal language and culture could you put your hand on heart and commit/support a consensus peace accord under one nation?

President Putin agenda is clearly focused on a misconception that Russia is under some sort of threat. President Putin has been actively courting Europe's energy market. Nato is a shell of its former self. Ukraine economy will take 15 years minimum to turn around. Even best guessestimate points to a shrinkage of some 7.5% in the current financial year all resulting from the conflict with eastern separatists. It makes little sense to destroy there homeland rather than sit down and agree a peace settlement. President Putin wants to return the map to a Soviet era irrespective of the wishes of the people of Ukraine.

The heavy equipment the Eastern Ukrainian forces use were not taken from fleeing Ukrainian forces since Ukrainian equipment are dilapidated.

Not so, look at the pictures. Both sides use identical hardware.

No, the Eastern forces' equipment are not dilapidated and newer. Can't just get those parts anywhere.

For those who don't know, the OSCE, a European NGO has been stationed at the border in the separatists for months now and they've confirmed that no Russian military equipment has crossed the border.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/12/18/us-ukraine-crisis-osce-idUSKBN0JW1Q320141218

OSCE, as the article indicates, is only 22 people at 2 checkpoints.

"European security watchdog the OSCE prolonged the mandate of its observer mission at two Russian checkpoints"

"The mission of 22 civilian observers"

They can't patrol all the borders, but Russia can, night and day, since it's their borders, if they want to.

Laguna please read what I wrote: it is true that hyper-nationalist elements exist, but they exist on both sides - and, arguably, more so on the Russian side.

Typical mistake - Russia consists of more than 180 nationalities

All of them are equal in their political rights unlike EU members - Latvia & Estonia

There are no "tru Russian" it is zero Russian nationalist in Russian Parlament - unlike Ukrainian

And hyper-nationalists & nazi - is a base of Ukrainian assault on South-East

From the beginning of putsh in Ukraine - slogan was - "shoot Russian from "atomic" machine gun "

Promise them everything and then hang them

OK - good Ukrainian hyper - nazi burn alive more than 50 men in Odessa

Is it possible in Russia ? Is it possible in Donbass ?

Instructive might be a look at Belarus, arguably Ukraine's twin. The president, Alexander Lukashenko

About 1 million Ukrainian run to Russia and Belarus

So - look and look attentively !

This is Putin's vision of Ukraine: a Russian satellite state which enserfs its workers and toes the line.

As far as I understand - last legitimate president of Ukraine - Yanukovich was displaced as a result of putsh

organised and financed by EU&US after refusing follow their orders

After THAT civile war started

SO - not Obama not Merkel are Ukranian

And they can't be more Ukranian that citizens of this land

Russia consists of more than 180 nationalities

Somewhat limited compared to the US, but both countries share a similarity: some are more equal than others. The difference is how these differences are balanced out over time. If Russia would grow up and accept true democracy, perhaps it wouldn't find itself where it is: surrounded by Kremlin-controlled autocracies or free people desperately trying to get away.

Laguna Russia consists of more than 180 nationalities Somewhat limited compared to the US, but both countries share a similarity: some are more equal than others

Sorry - it's NO similarity with US - most of nationality in Russia are indigenous peoples : they live where they lived

before entering Russian State and of course can use whole territory of state - they are not emigrants

And not only Russian (and what is Russian ? ) but all nations create base for a Russian state

And as we know US gov send indigenous peoples to reservations ( not suitable for the land of the free and the home of the brave.) - it's a really BIG difference

Russian are NOT white . Russian are NOT europeans .

So nothing common with British or French empires , or Spanish one

itsonlyrocknroll Hi Olegek, If Russian were genuinely recognised as a equal language and culture could you put your hand on heart and commit/support a consensus peace accord under one natio

Hi !! - and what the problem with this recognition ? Why it is a open question ?

What the problem with human rights in West-oriented Ukraine ? Why this is subject of the bargain ? Why this is not a base of Europe - oriented Ukraine ?

After bloody civil war and mass destructions - why not think about equality ? You don't think it's a little bit strange and little bit too late ?

After Ukrainian Army is crashed for second time in a less than half a year ?

22 years Russian in Ukraine demanded equality and the first decision after putsh was cancelled even regionals rights of Russian language . So it was a start point for a civil war

Nato is a shell of its former self.

And Russia has pale shadow of a Soviet Army And Warsaw Pact does not exist anymore

It makes little sense to destroy there homeland rather than sit down and agree a peace settlemen

As I said many times - it's civil war

Or war between Russia and USA on the next level but not the war Kiev VS Moscow

they are not emigrants

Well, most of them aren't - and the ones which are not probably wish that they were.

There are many things that are made to believe in favor of those who control the money, yet it is a totally different story. After 9/11, I do not believe anything in the western media.If anybody has a valid point in this forum is Olegek.The same people who started he Pussy riots were the same who started the civil war in Yugoslavia.

The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-()()()()(*)es, barbarians, and chronic drunks.

---Patton

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-18/ukraine-admits-its-gold-gone

They only ones that "trust" this Ukraine criminal Gov are the ones that are stealing from the people of Ukraine.

Olegek I am referring to the 2012 language law, recognising Russian as a second language, bilingualism in regions where ethnic minorities make up at least 10 percent of the local population. A revision of this law could make at least 13 of Ukraine's 27 regions adopted Russian official language. Depends how one defines 'problem'. The abolition of the law ignited or afforded Moscow to the political means to intervene in what the Kremlin described as "outright as a violation of ethnic minority rights”......However any peace protocol is always going to be undermined by Moscow whose ultimate goal is secession.

itsonlyrocknroll Olegek I am referring to the 2012 language law, recognising Russian as a second language, bilingualism in regions where ethnic minorities make up at least 10 percent of the local population. The abolition of the law ignited or afforded Moscow

OK - the struggle for this law ( or better one) - lasted 20 years of Ukrainian Independence

Immediately after the putsh it was abolished - Ukraine had no legitimate government, huge economic and political problems

Situation was VERY dubious - the strong and fast measures required to save the country

But first movement was to abolish that law - really strange ?

First putsh Second abolishing lanuage law

And the country was lost - Russian population of Ukraine lost any trust to this state

If Ukrainian nationalists cared sooo much about " united Ukraine " - why they act so destructive ?

Compare - Crimea " annexed " by bad Putin - all quiet nobody was hurt

Ukrainian Donbass - mass destructions and heavy losses ....

Strange but population of Crimea recognised Russian government

And population of Donbass does not recognised Ukrainian government

Poroshenko problem is that he can not win the hearts of Donbass residents without artillery and tanks

@Olegek You can have your Donbass but I will come and defend the land bridge to Crimea myself if I have to. The hypocrisy from Russia will be stopped soon, one way or another.