Monday May 28, 2012

Report links CIA to military harsh interrogations

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  • 0

    smithinjapan

    “In my judgment,” Levin said, “the report represents a condemnation of both the Bush administration’s interrogation policies and of senior administration officials who attempted to shift the blame for abuse such as that seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay and Afghanistan to low-ranking soldiers.”

    Exactly! Now, you reopen the cases of the soldiers under new charges (can't charge them again for the same, perhaps) and let them know that if they tell the truth about where the orders came they get off. Haha.

    Seriously, though, this is pretty quickly unravelling and looking worse and worse for liars like Cheney and the rest of the bush gang. I hope Obama was serious about the prosecutions, and some law makers and CIA officials do some hard time. Otherwise, the US admits they are no better than the terrorists themselves.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    smithinjapan: Otherwise, the US admits they are no better than the terrorists themselves.

    Yeah, planning the murder of 3,000 innocents or waterboarding, pretty much the same in my book.

  • 0

    DXXJP

    Is this what dead eye dick wanted??

    Yeah, planning the murder of 3,000 innocents or waterboarding, pretty much the same in my book.

    And sending another 4000 for cannon foder would that also be in your book, or the millions left dead, maimed, or displaced, what chapter would that be. I wouldn't have to much of a problem with all of this if dead eye dick and dubya actually took the fight to the perpetrators but instead veered off the road. You would think with all this intel someone would have had a map of the middle east.

    By the way if I was treated like some of these guys I would probably say I pulled off 9/11.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SuperLib: "Yeah, planning the murder of 3,000 innocents or waterboarding, pretty much the same in my book."

    Your book's not selling very well these days, I'm afraid. When the US proclaims itself to be the champion of virtue and leader of rights and democracy, then uses torture while purporting to defend it, it has stooped to the level of the terrorists and is absolutely NO better. If your 'book' says it's different, your book is simply wrong, and fortunately the world knows it.

    But since you brought up 'the deaths of 3000 innocents', I'll just remind you that the US is in/directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands in Iraq alone.

    Sorry on this one again, chum, but as I said above I hope these guys do some hard time. Either that, or the US admit they are no better than the terrorists -- or were no better under bush. Fortunately Obama has put a stop to it.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    When the US proclaims itself to be the champion of virtue and leader of rights and democracy"

    Who said that.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    Civil libertarians are up in arms over the Bush administration's practice of extraordinary rendition, in which the United States outsources its interrogation of international terrorism suspects to countries that practice torture. And we certainly should be--but it was the Clinton administration that pioneered this despicable practice."

  • 0

    skipthesong

    Bill Clinton: "Torture Like on 24 Is OK" America needs more Jack Bauer like agents says former President" On Meet The Press.

    how come the O admin is not leaking out the torture practices under the Clinton admin? Oh, Hillary is there now, so now I understand. Its ok when Dems do it????

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    skipthesong: "how come the O admin is not leaking out the torture practices under the Clinton admin? Oh, Hillary is there now, so now I understand. Its ok when Dems do it????"

    If anyone can prove that such practices were carried out then I am certainly for making the information public, but it seems there is none. How can you say beyond a doubt there are, when you have no idea? You said, "...not leaking out the torture practices under the Clinton admin.?", so prove it.

    Until then, we air out the dirty laundry we have now. If there's another heap from before, all the more to air when it's found. Speculation on the subject without any fact is simply absurd.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    DXXJP: And sending another 4000 for cannon foder would that also be in your book, or the millions left dead, maimed, or displaced, what chapter would that be.

    Probably the first chapter of whatever book you're writing. Too bad it has nothing to do with comparing interrogation techniques with Al Queda.

    I wouldn't have to much of a problem with all of this if

    Ah, and now you get back on topic and the first thing you say is that you wouldn't have too much of a problem with the interrogation techniques.

    smithinjapan: it has stooped to the level of the terrorists and is absolutely NO better.

    So when Canada sends people to Gitmo to oversee interrogations and has suspect picked up on their behalf by the US, then I guess Canada is NO BETTER than the terrorists? Come on, smith. Say it with me. Canadian government, Al Queda. No difference.

  • 0

    neverknow2

    No surprises here. Get ready for a new wave of the same, with the African pirates saga.

  • 0

    DXXJP

    Uh lib are you saying all the people were alqeda, you know this for fact or just these two men. How many were pulled from Iraq and treated to the same southern hospitality. Do you have some truthometer that tells you everyone of them were. How about all the secret locations, what were the techniques there. Funny how they perp walked the people from abu garab, told us all it was a few bad eggs, lied about how many times they in fact used these techniques, and then have the gall to spin it off on Obama somehow.

    I wouldnt have a problem with it IF in fact it was only used on confirmed members, and with in reason. Waterboarding someone 180 some odd times is far from with in reason. IF you dont get any credible info the first couple of times what makes you think you will a few hundred.

    Twisting the laws to suit your agenda, as well as persecuting the few bad apples for your dirty work is that something that me or any other american should be proud of.

  • 0

    teleprompter

    But we now know that Canada and some of our NATO partners also 'tortured' non-uniformed combatants in Afghanistan.

    What is hampering issue of that report?

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SuperLib: "So when Canada sends people to Gitmo to oversee interrogations and has suspect picked up on their behalf by the US, then I guess Canada is NO BETTER than the terrorists?"

    In that respect, no, no better, and should be a great source of shame. There you go. Glad you can admit the US government under bush was no better than terrorists. Not so hard now, was it? And by your own definition you grant them the status of the moral equivalent of Al Qaida.

    As I said, I'm glad the situation has been rectified and people made to pay their dues. You should be too. Now your country is better than the terrorists.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    teleprompter: "But we now know that Canada and some of our NATO partners also 'tortured' non-uniformed combatants in Afghanistan. What is hampering issue of that report?"

    Well, those reports probably got stuck with your other magical reports that don't exist... like that Iraq had WMDs prior to bush jr.'s invasion and were a threat to the continental US.

    Anyway, teleprompter, weren't you smacked down enough yesterday on the issue of supporting domestic terrorism -- errr... condoning torture?

  • 0

    adaydream

    Let's forget about the bush administration being charged with anything. What about the 5 soldiers and the Brig. Beneral that were court-martialed. What about the other people who have suffered from charges of torture. They were just following orders. Those stress positions, slapping, using dogs and dragging them around with dog collars. They were told and taught to use these techniques. But now we find out they were authorized to by higher powers.

    We just let them suffer from the lies? < :-)

  • 0

    TheQuestion

    Your book's not selling very well these days, I'm afraid. When the US proclaims itself to be the champion of virtue and leader of rights and democracy, then uses torture while purporting to defend it, it has stooped to the level of the terrorists and is absolutely NO better.

    I don't buy the virtue bit for a second. The constitution exists to protect the rights of its citizens. I see no moral high ground when dealing with terrorists. Prisoners are far too expensive anyway, especially if all they do is sit around not providing information.

  • 0

    timorborder

    This aint news, things like waterboarding, stress positions and crank-handle telephones have long been used by different countries' special forces as a means by which to toughen up both applicants (to those special forces) and sometimes members. On a mental front, the use of stress positions on people is also widely used along with sensory deprivation. The interesting thing, however, is that by and large, it was always imagined that people who caught special forces soldiers might offer them free dentistry and other rather crude interrogation techniques in order to obtain information, not many people thought that this paradigm would be put on its head and you would have the "good guys" working over detainees.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    Until then, we air out the dirty laundry we have now. If there's another heap from before, all the more to air when it's found. Speculation on the subject without any fact is simply absurd." Are you telling me that the US invented torture?
    No, and the US has used torture during the clinton years too. Look more into it, especially Yugoslavia and you will find it and actually I don't care about that. If Obama's CIA or Clinton's CIA used torture, we won't know about it anyways. Not until at least a different party takes over and that is how it works.

    The CIA has been known to use torture. Obama says use the Army field guide, where if you so much as raise your voice, you are violated.

    Now, you are tell me that Dick and Bush go to jail because they thought they were doing a service to protect Americans (we are not talking about right or wrong, I am talking about intentions) and the guy who planned the 9-11 attacks goes free because he was treated to a simulated death?

    I can not believe the amount of time that is going into this. And how much is going into doing something about Khalid? 0! he is now being pampered.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    skip: "Are you telling me that the US invented torture?"

    Calm down already! Where on earth do you get your jumps in logic from a person's post that the US should not stoop to the level of terrorists to that person saying the US invented torture? How could I possibly say they are doing what terrorists do if they themselves invented it? Think before you post, man!

    "No, and the US has used torture during the clinton years too. Look more into it, especially Yugoslavia and you will find it and actually I don't care about that."

    I do love when the people that make outrageous claims tell the skeptics to simply search for the proof themselves. At least you didn't ask me to 'prove that they did not'.

    "If Obama's CIA or Clinton's CIA used torture, we won't know about it anyways. Not until at least a different party takes over and that is how it works."

    Geez... then you'd think the bush admin. would have easily brought such documents to light to defend their cause, no? If Obama does indeed use torture, after declaring he will not and leaking the bush admin. endorsement/use of it then I hope it indeed sees the light of day later.

    "Now, you are tell me that Dick and Bush go to jail because they thought they were doing a service to protect Americans (we are not talking about right or wrong, I am talking about intentions) and the guy who planned the 9-11 attacks goes free because he was treated to a simulated death?"

    If dick and bush are guilty of torture, then yes I say they go to prison. I do not at all say the guy who committed the terrorist acts of 9/11 go free -- where did I say that? bush and cheney can share a cell with him. bush and cheney have done NO service to Americans by doing what the terrorists do, and saying it's 'even Steven' doesn't change that fact. You set a dangerous precedent when you declare yourself (and not you, skip, I mean in general) to be morally superior and yet stoop to the same tactics as those you claim to be superior to.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    DXXJP: I wouldnt have a problem with it IF in fact it was only used on confirmed members, and with in reason.

    It's interesting that you and I agree on that. It sounds that you're outraged by the torture in Iraqi prisons but not so much outraged by the torture on Al Queda operatives? Again, probably something that you and I agree on because we feel the situation requires extreme measures for such people, but not as a policy to be used lightly with large groups of people. That's why it's hard to figure out what one policy should be used for everyone, or if that's even the right way to go.

    Waterboarding someone 180 some odd times is far from with in reason. IF you dont get any credible info the first couple of times what makes you think you will a few hundred.

    Well my guess is that they asked new questions, not the same question over and over again. But in reality, who knows. And who even knows what constitutes one "waterboarding." The put a rag on his face and then pour water over it. Is it one session? Or one pour? Or one day?

  • 0

    skipthesong

    bush and cheney can share a cell with him." Ok, I agree!

  • 0

    skipthesong

    As long as yous are down with getting the dudes that killed people on 9-11, I'm all ears to hear your gripes about Bush.

  • 0

    skipthesong

    Didn't they already die?" That's a damn bad joke. You know well what I am talking about.

  • 0

    DXXJP

    Yes - my apologies. Certainly there are more at fault that need to be brought to justice.

    Yes and If I remember right dubya said he wasnt interested in UBL. So why torture a guy so many times?. Wasnt this the whole intention, to find UBL?. So what does that say to all of us, what its says to me is that dubyas use of the laws are different than the laws used on us.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    skipthesong: "As long as yous are down with getting the dudes that killed people on 9-11, I'm all ears to hear your gripes about Bush."

    Have never been against it, nor will I ever be (getting the people who plotted 9/11 that are not yet caught/dead).

  • 0

    bushlover

    I don't care. I'm for torture if it means getting the guys who hide in failed nations and can get away with murder in their own mind being supported by the "amnesty" and "politically correct" crowd. If it can save people I have no problem with treating these scumbags just like they treat people who don't agree with them. Long Live Gitmo!

  • 0

    Taka313

    When the defense for your actions pretty much so starts and ends with, "...but...but...but...look what the other guy is doing," you have no moral authority.

    Taka

  • 0

    adaydream

    If we can lock up the ones who used the techniques authorized by the bush administration. Then it's only fair to put those people who authorized these torture techniques before a court and prosecuted as such. They should be in the cells right next to the ones charged and found guilty of using those techniques.

    But I keep reading how the bush administration should be given a break, but no one thinks that the ones who used these torture techniques should be pardoned? Only glorify the leaders.

    george bush, dich cheney and donald rumpsfeld are traitors to the American people and should be tried and locked up in prison. < :-)

  • 0

    jeancolmar

    Welcome to the new euphemism: "Harsh Interrogations." It torture. And people who commit torture belong in prison.

    Oh yes, torture is responsible for a lot of false confessions.

  • 0

    grafton

    “harsh interrogation tactics”

    When its torture call it torture.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    I agree that torture is probably good for a lot of false confessions. But I'm curious about whether it gives information other than confessions, like locations, plans, names, etc.

  • 0

    smithinjapan

    SuperLib: "I agree that torture is probably good for a lot of false confessions. But I'm curious about whether it gives information other than confessions, like locations, plans, names, etc."

    I'm sure in some cases it does, and equally as sure it probably gives false locations, plans, names, etc. in some cases, too. Only the person under 'interrogation' would know.

  • 0

    adaydream

    I want to see a thorough investigation. I bet there are much worse things then what we have been led to believe actually happened. I bet we are just looking at the tip of the iceberg where it comes to torture and the methods used.

    If you or I was suspected to have committed acts against humanity that were torturous to another person or animal, we'd have the full weight of the law looking into our actions.

    I want a top to bottom investigation, who did what and who authorized what. Then we'll look at charges.

    Also look at pardons, returning to full duty, pay status and return of all fines, fortures and promotions missed. < :-)

  • 0

    bushlover

    [I want a top to bottom investigation, who did what and who authorized what. Then we'll look at charges. Also look at pardons, returning to full duty, pay status and return of all fines, fortures and promotions missed.]

    Good Luck on your personal justice mission. Some people that protect the country may have to do things that are not palatable to you and you want to hang them for it. I want to see if any information gained was checked out and actually did avert any incidents of mass murder in America. Why not just call them baby killers and be done with it if it will make you feel any better?

  • 0

    Taka313

    It seems the "torture works" crowd not only left their sense of morality at the door, they got a lot of it wrong to boot.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/23/opinion/23soufan.html

    Defenders of these techniques have claimed that they got Abu Zubaydah to give up information leading to the capture of Ramzi bin al-Shibh, a top aide to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, and Mr. Padilla. This is false. The information that led to Mr. Shibh’s capture came primarily from a different terrorist operative who was interviewed using traditional methods. As for Mr. Padilla, the dates just don’t add up: the harsh techniques were approved in the memo of August 2002, Mr. Padilla had been arrested that May.

    Taka

  • 0

    adaydream

    My personal justice mission?

    There are numerous soldiers that have been court-martialed, reduced in rank, forced out of the service and are serving time in the brig for the very same torture techniques that you justify.

    Do you believe that this is my personal justice or that these people need justice.

    bushlover, you'd leave these people locked up for your personal heros who authorized these techniques. You don't care as long as george bush, dick cheney and donald rumpsfeld walk scott free.

    I don't care for your kind of justice. < :-)

  • 0

    SuperLib

    daydream: I want a top to bottom investigation, who did what and who authorized what.

    Why not just make up your own report and publish it? I can't imagine that any report that doesn't confirm your imagination will be taken seriously anyway.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    smithinjapan: I'm sure in some cases it does, and equally as sure it probably gives false locations, plans, names, etc. in some cases, too. Only the person under 'interrogation' would know.

    Well, the people who use the information to arrest people or stop plans would also know.

    The fact is this....no one really supports torture unless it's done to the right people and it gets information. Then we all support it if we believe lives will be saved. It's a paradox that there is no solution to.

  • 0

    adaydream

    So SuperLib, you seem to be like many others of your ilk. Leave the ones who were prosecuted in the brig, demoted, discharged with dishonorable discharges as is? You have no need for justice for the ones who followed the orders you sanction?

    It's very evident who wants justice and who wants george bush protected. < :-)

  • 0

    ca1ic0cat

    The latest reports are that Congress was briefed on the techniques and the results as early as 2002. Does that mean we get to put the whole lot on trial for war crimes?

  • 0

    adaydream

    That doesn't mean the full congress. That means a hand full of congressmen who swear to keep their mouths shut.

    But SuperLib and bushlover, do you want the men and women soldiers who have been penalized for these harsh interrogations that you justify to stay in prison?

    Do you want them to face the humiliation of dishonorable discharges and confinement for these crimes that you justify?

    There were eleven US soldiers have been convicted in the Abu Ghraib scandal. Remember Charles Graner, Lynndie England and Janis Karpinski?

    "The former brigadier general punished for dereliction of duty, Janis Karpinski, said the report vindicates her" and she never entered the side of the prison that the military interrogators operated.

    Do we just say, too bad? < :-)

  • 0

    LIBERTAS

    Latest reports (can't supply links right now but will keep trying) say Rice, Rumsfeld, Slam Dunk Boy himself right up to Darth and "W" ALL signed off on this. Off with their heads!

  • 0

    SuperLib

    It's very evident who wants justice and who wants george bush protected.

    That's right, daydream. Everything I do is done for the sole purpose of protecting George Bush. Just like you, people around the world are thinking about George Bush every single day.

    There were eleven US soldiers have been convicted in the Abu Ghraib scandal.

    I think people are talking about interrogations, not abuse at prisons.

  • 0

    LostinNagoya

    Libertas:

    Latest reports (can't supply links right now but will keep trying) say Rice, Rumsfeld, Slam Dunk Boy himself right up to Darth and "W" ALL signed off on this. Off with their heads!

    I saw it on CNN. It´s really disgusting how these high ranking lawmakers and politicians allowed US go immoral.

  • 0

    bushlover

    To back up what SuperLib said: What you talk about daydream is abuse of prisoners and yes those people responsible, the names you mentioned, deserve to do their time for abusing their duties of only guarding prisoners. Interrogations would have been done by more experienced intelligence officers while they were in military custody. I believe you always are just try to jump on the bandwagon and hang anyone that happened to be close to it during the Bush administration. Funny how you go directly for Bush. Not saying he's entirely innocent himself but maybe as he sees it, how much self loathing should we do to feel guilty that we had to extract information in harsh ways. I'd pick waterboarding any day over decapitation and mutilation. Maybe you think that Jack Bauer and his direct line to the President was real. I got a secret for you. ... It's Television mate.

  • 0

    adaydream

    Gen. Geoffrey D. Miller took the interrogation techniques from Gitmo to Abu Ghraib. Gen. Miller was the military police. Gen. Miller commanded the soldiers who committed the tortures and interrogations.

    george bush and the gang of followers authorized those techniques. Those techniques that you so aptly defend were authorized from Washington, DC, started their authorized use in Gitmo and funnelled to Iraq.

    the names you mentioned, deserve to do their time for abusing their duties of only guarding prisoners.

    No, the pictures got out showing common practice on the military intellegence side of the prison.

    B/Gen Janis Karpinski didn't even have authorization nor access to the military intellegence side of Abu Ghraib and she received a letter of repremind.

    bushlover, these soldiers did exactly what they were told. The problem is, pictures you know. They were authorized to do these techniques, and paid with their careers? But in your book that's okay. < :-)

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