Russia decides to end operations in S. Ossetia

Wednesday 13th August, 06:52 AM JST

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Betzee at 10:24 PM JST - 14th August

Those neocons who advocated the invasion of Iraq were confident it would demonstrate an intimidating show of US power, cementing our status as the world’s dominant, and sole, superpower. The result they try so hard not to acknowledge has been precisely the opposite:

The limits of American power — our Army tied down in Iraq, even as we lose a second war in Afghanistan — have been humiliatingly revealed for the entire world to see.

The effects of this strategic failure are now on display, as Russia invades Georgia, while the US can do little more than stand by and complain ineffectually, its once intimidating power exposed as so much empty bluster.

Meanwhile what is SuperLib's response? To engage in Betzee Derangement Syndrome.
sailwind at 10:35 PM JST - 14th August

Those neocons who advocated the invasion of Iraq were confident it would demonstrate an intimidating show of US power, cementing our status as the world’s dominant, and sole, superpower. The result they try so hard not to acknowledge has been precisely the opposite:

I thought the neocons vision was about planting a real democracy in the Middle East musta missed the part of an intimidating show of U.S power.
adaydream at 10:40 PM JST - 14th August

undecidedbout08 - The other problem with the kind of equations that betzee and adaydream come here with (We invaded Iraq,.....

People like the above addressed poster see no bad PR from the effects of being the "School Yard Bully" that george bush and the United States has portrayed.

I guess we need to get together the rest of the National Guard and the Boy Scouts and send them straight to Georgia and kick Russia out.

How the hell are we going to press Russia with no military available? How are we going to tell Russia, after our past telling Russia to stay out of our business, are we going to press Russia that we are so morally correct and the Russians are so bad?

So I'm not pounding the great US War Machine mantra.

I'm looking at reality and consequences of our past actions. We've been such a shining example of deplomancy. < :-)
adaydream at 10:45 PM JST - 14th August

The article may be about "Russia decides to end operations in S. Ossetia"?

But the Russians haven't left. So the article needs to be updated so the real conditions on the grougs are reflected.

Russia ain't giving up what they have gained.

Kinda like what the US wants to do in Iraq. Continue control of a sovern nation. < :-)
sailwind at 10:51 PM JST - 14th August

Let's get down to the bottom line of all this anyway......Russia wants her control of her 'near abroad' again, if you don't know the term google the term Russia near abroad. Putin has been more and autocratic over the years and empowered by oil wealth.......Sheesh, like this hasn't happened before. Russia because of Europe's dependence on oil is going to get away with this. Putin is just another in a long line of oil despots like Chavez, Iran, Kaddafi and the list goes on and on. Heck Sudan....Who cares long as the oil flows.

This is how it really is and why Georgia is going back under the Russia boot, Russia can afford it and take any diplomatic fall out by the west at bay because Europe needs to heat her homes on that cheap Russian natural gas.

When are we ever going learn......Get off the oil, Putin would be toast a long time ago if it wasn't for that along with the rest of the oil fueled dictators and the world would be in a heck of lot better place than she is right now.
sailwind at 10:55 PM JST - 14th August

adaydream

One day I really look forward when you can actually post something that doesn't involve Bush or Iraq.
Betzee at 11:10 PM JST - 14th August

Sailwind,

I agree with your 10:51 post. Putin's going to hold onto control of that oil and the natural gas pipeline infrastructure as long as he can. Because there are so many new states it's logistically difficult to build alternative pipeline infrastructure which would decrease Russia's power. Azerbaijan doesn't want to deal with Turkmenistan and the Azeris have so much oil from the Caspian they don't need to bother with natural gas anyway. So the pipeline across the Caspian which would bypass Russian territory remains a pipedream.
SuperLib at 04:22 AM JST - 15th August

Those neocons who advocated the invasion of Iraq were confident it would demonstrate an intimidating show of US power

Betzee, do you support Russia's actions in the conflict with Georgia? ;)
Betzee at 10:15 AM JST - 15th August

Betzee, do you support Russia's actions in the conflict with Georgia?

Have you any interest in discussing this issue in anything other than personalized terms? This was a more intriguing claim:

People like her will be sure to sanitize any context so it is as broad and general as possible. The last thing they want to do is discuss the realities of each government, the actions of each, the history between the two, etc.

So I read on eagerly to see how you elaborated the differences. Wonders never cease, you didn't (instead simply continuing on in a familiar rant) leading me to conclude you don't see your evident lack of knowledge as any barrier to meaningful discussion.

In fact there are significant differences. Supporters of the invasion of Iraq, for example, might point out that GWB did try to take the issue to the UN Security Council. Yeah, he did. But by embellishing the case against Saddam and making it clear we were going to invade regardless of whether the UN Security Council signed off it was a foregone conclusion they wouldn't and, frankly, we coulda cared less.

By contrast the Russians skipped that step and simply invaded. Then they spoke about hauling the Georgian president off to the Hague to face charges of genocide. Yet they have had people on the ground for years in South Ossetia, so why didn't they bring this to the attention of the world earlier? Moreover, disinterested groups like Human Rights Watch have documented no such crimes against Saakashvili. The families of the thousands of Chechyan separatists killed by the Russians might also find Moscow's new-found concern for the rights of ethnic minorities a bit disingenuous to say the least.

In short, it would have be interesting to debate this (with someone other than myself). Instead all I got in response were posts questioning my patriotism. This does not bode well for our country as we face new challenges such as the reascendance of Russia.
SuperLib at 12:44 PM JST - 15th August

Betzee, do you support Russia's actions in the conflict with Georgia?

Don't worry, I know you won't allow yourself to answer. Your personal opinions might undercut your attacks on America. But from time to time it is kind of fun to point out the cage you've locked yourself in. Here's a peanut for ya....
Betzee at 09:52 AM JST - 16th August

Don't worry, I know you won't allow yourself to answer.

Wait a minute, isn't SezWho awaiting your response to the same question on the other thread:

I think I was asking you why you think you support Georgia in following up on your comment that you thought you supported Georgia.

I'm less concerned with whom anyone posting here supports, or thinks they support, than the number of Russians who back their government to the hilt. Not only did I hear this from someone in Moscow but in perusing the LA Times feedback section I noticed many posters who identified themselves as Russian in one way or another, declaring Moscow had acted with the utmost restraint. These are presumably residents of LA's large Russian immigrant community. Nationalism is portable, however.

This is not the first time we've confront such a reality in 2008. In the spring we saw the Chinese get their knickers in a twist over criticisms of the way Beijing handled unrest in Tibet. It didn't matter if they were inside or outside the motherland, they were equally adamant about who was right and who was wrong.

Not to exempt Americans, things got similarly shrill here in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. Reason just goes right out the window as everyone starts waving a flag.

The reason this is troubling is because globalization is premised on the belief that economic rationality trumps all other considerations. In other words, the profit motive is universal and not culturally specific. Yet Putin was willing to cut the gas to the Ukraine over a dispute, I don't doubt he'd do the same thing to Western Europe.

So much for the view that global integration protects us from war because nobody wants to risk the prosperity it has provided.
SuperLib at 04:20 PM JST - 16th August

Nope, I answered that, plus I've given my opinions about both Russia and Georgia several times.

Betzee, do you support Russia's actions in the conflict with Georgia? Excuse me while I put the lock back on your cage... ;)
Betzee at 12:00 AM JST - 17th August

Betzee, do you support Russia's actions in the conflict with Georgia?

Obviously I do not. Yet that does not prevent me from appreciating the irony of this unexpected turn of events. I mean the Georgian Foreign Ministry has issued a statement reminding the world that "invading the territory of a sovereign state and bombing its territory is unacceptable in the 21st century."

Huh? Is this not the same Georgia which dispatched 3,000 troops to Iraq to support GWB's preemptive strike against a sovereign state in 2003, a military assault which included bombing its territory?
undecidedbout08 at 03:38 AM JST - 18th August

BBC reports Ukraine is worried by Russia

"Ukraine offers West radar warning

Ukraine has said it is ready to make its missile early warning systems available to European nations following Russia's conflict with Georgia. " http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/europe/7566070.stm

and today we read that

"Germany offers support for Georgia's NATO bid

By MICHAEL FISCHER – 4 hours ago

TBILISI, Georgia (AP) — German Chancellor Angela Merkel is offering strong support for Georgia, saying the country is on track to become a member of NATO.

Merkel flew to the Georgian capital of Tbilisi on Sunday, two days after she met with Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in the Black Sea resort of Sochi.

In a speech Sunday, Merkel also suggested that NATO could help rebuild the tattered Georgian military.

Merkel supports the EU cease-fire, saying it needs to be followed "immediately" and that Russian troops need to pull out of neighboring Georgia."

Yup. That 'Russia invaded in response to what US did in Iraq' meme really lookin credible...
dpurcell84 at 03:23 AM JST - 19th August

What needs to be remembered is Georgas very strategic position. It is literally the lifeline to former Soviet Union states, and, I might add, a lifeline to Afghanistan. In addition might I point out whose side Russia is on in the Iranian issue? Who shipped nuclear materials to Iran? Didn’t the US just move a fifth battle group into the region? Without a response to Russia? I can't help but feel that Georgia is an unwilling pawn in a much larger game. It was pointed out that that Germany has now offered its support for Georgas NATO bid; I would like to remind everyone that it was German and France who blocked Georgas NATO bid because of fear of Russia's economic protest (oil). Russia is not an innocent victim in this. Remember who Putin was, the head of the KGB, and also quiet an accomplished chess player. I wonder what he thought of the American political process. Sitting in his marble halls sipping iced Vodka while Hillary tried to cry her way into office. What a sad state my nation has fallen too