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  SezWho2 at 10:02 AM JST - 11th September

  TonyUS,

  Don't be insulting. I think I have an understanding of borders, sovereignty and separatists. But you are right that I do not like the term "big bad Russia". It is pejorative and meaningless.

  As far as the issue of genocide in Kosovo is concerned, that was not an issue at the time of the declaration of Kosovan independence unless, of course, you are talking about Albanian attacks on Serbs. And when you say that genocide is absolutely not an issue with Georgia and South Ossetia, I think you are on very shaky ground. Georgia pursued a campaign of ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia in the early 90s, burning Ossetian villages and driving Ossetians from the country and even out of Georgia. Despite that, the Ossetians remain a majority in South Ossetia.

  The point, however, is that you say Russia has no excuse for supporting the independence of South Ossetia. I say that it not only has an excuse in defending its borders from NATO encroachment but it also has a precedent in Kosovo. The unwillingness to recognize that will not lead to any practical solutions to the problem.

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  TonyUS at 12:40 PM JST - 11th September

  sez we are talking today not the past. Georgia wants control of its land and to impose its form of government that the people od S, Ossetia would be part of.

  I do not say Russia has no excuse... I say they have no right imposing its force upon another country , which Georgia is.

  It is funny not too long ago we forget the moves by Russia to incorporate into NATO.

  It is a shame Russia has slipped back into its thinking in the way of Soviet era... You point that out yourself.

  Ao we will have to deal with that and if that means pushing forward NATO membership for the rest, I geess that will have to be the case as with Ukraine.

  EU tugs at Ukraine amid concerns about Russia http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080910/aponreeu/eurussiasneighbors;_ylt=Aq1qVBaMeGMs.3G3b1HZyz50bBAF No one has to put up with a cold war minded Russia, but they will deal with them in all ways neccesary. It is like dealing with the Warsaw pack, but with out Warsaw. What a kick in the pants that is for Russia. All this is a slap in Russia's face as we are seeing.. A whipped pup wanting revenge and that is what Russia is doing and acting as such.. Pethetic of such a country of power. But.. as we see them acting as such we also see who has come into control of the country.. PUTIN the ex KGB man that has reversed many of the accomplishments that has went forward as for social freedoms since the colapse of the Soviet Union that seems to be comming back to the forfront because of Putin and his history of having authority and power under his belt, in the past and of the present and not wanting to let go of that. Now we are seeing the consequences.

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  SezWho2 at 11:07 PM JST - 12th September

  TonyUS,

  Well we are talking about the past if we are talking about genocide in Kosovo. And if we disallow the past, you would need to come up with a different rationale for ignoring the similarities.

  If you now want to say that you did not say that Russia has no excuse, that's fine. Previously I believe you did say that there was no excuse for Russian actions. Unless that post has been deleted, I think I could find it for you if you give me a dollar.

  I agree with you that Russia has no right imposing its force upon another country. But if others do, why should it not?

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  TonyUS at 03:08 PM JST - 14th September

  I sad Russia has no excuse for invading a sovereign country, period.

  There is a difference with Georgia being a democracy and ruled by law and elections and decisions made by the people. There is no reason Russia should have taken a position in Georgia from the start, from the start I mean when Georgia became an independent state. The people that immigrated or moved to Georgia (S.Ossetia) could have very well settled in with the Georgian government and over time if not liking it there moved back to Russia. There was no reason for Russia to have any presence there from the very beginning, and the people of S. Ossetia live among the rest of the people there and become part of the country and society. It is a democratic country with rights for all and representation for all. Russia from the start has only upheld the situation of that part of the country and supported these people as being encouraged to defy what should have been from the start , Georgia a whole..

  Hey Sez this is just the way I see it and what I think would have been right for everyone and Georgia keeping its dignity and right to securing its own borders. I am not saying you have to agree with me, but I just state my case in stressing my position. Sure Russia wants to show some dominance, but I sure do not agree with their dominance being aggression and trying to come in upon a sovereign country that its base is democratic based on the will of the people and that including those Russians that migrated there whether it being before or after the split from the Soviet Union, they are living in Georgia.

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  SezWho2 at 02:19 PM JST - 15th September

  TonyUS,

  Yes, you said there was no excuse for Russia invading a sovereign country, period.

  When you say Russia has no right to do so, I agree. When you say Russia has no excuse for doing so, I disagree and I have stated its excuse.

  I think you are using democracy rather like a trump card and I don't believe it is. Even if it were, the exercise of Georgian sovereignty over South Ossetia represents the tyranny of democracy: "People over here says that the land over there is ours." South Ossetians do not agree.

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  TonyUS at 02:12 PM JST - 16th September

  Who are the original settlers of S. Ossetia?? The migrants or those of the original land.. That is the point of who should rule this land. I believe the aborigines trump. And yes I state democracy as a main issue in the discussion that the west, "based on democracy", should position itself on and stand by since that is what we have always positioned ourselves as actions we have taken over the years, decades etc.

  That would be like saying south Florida, parts of Texas, New Mexico, Parts of California, would have the right to succeed from the union because over the years migrants have taken the majority of the population and demands to be independent and then a few decide that they have that right to do so, saying the country of Mexico, or Cuba and then try and dispatch their military power to make it happen. Of course that would be if Mexico or China had more military power than the US. but that is just a hypothetical situation, but what is happening in Georgia and the actions of Russia in Georgia.. This situation would not be tolerated and seen as being right and this falls right in line why it should never happen in Georgia

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  TonyUS at 02:28 PM JST - 16th September

  If it is the excuse issue, sure Russia will come up with an excuse being right or wrong. I find it wrong and there is no excuse for its actions when it comes to the borders of sovereignty of another country. Whether it is afraid of NATO or not, they wish for all of us to believe they are tough and no one is their threat or can damage them, but that is of course the face of the government and something of a nostalgic sentiment that bares no fruit or they would not be pushing all of this down everyone’s throat. They do not want NATO or the west breathing down their necks and all they can do is try and show force in stopping it. but at the same time they are infringing on another nations sovereignty and borders. I am not sure if you are now trying to support their excuses or just saying they have an excuse? Do you support their excuses? In earlier post I took it as you support the excuses Russia has put forth for going into Georgia where I have taken the position Russia should never have had a presents inside of Georgia from the start and especially driving even further into Georgia in the brief time of war. I stand for Russia to get the heck out of Georgia and the people of S. Osettia be governed by the rightful rulers of the land and that is the rulers of Georgia. If those in S, Ossetia do not like that, they can migrate back to Russia eventually and if Russia cares so much about these people they so claim to do, then give them aid in moving back to Russia if that is where they wish to be ruled by because those in these territories are not all from Russia or at that time they migrated there was of Soviet Union, but also original residents of Georgia, being minority or majority makes no difference what so ever in where the Georgia border is and always has been throughout history.. If any one has right to the land it is the original settlers and not to be desided by force of another country, in this case Russia.

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  SezWho2 at 10:49 PM JST - 16th September

  TonyUS,

  "Whose land is it?" is a complex question that cannot be solved by asking who the "aborigines" are. Who are the aborigines in the US? Who are they in Australia? in Kosovo?

  If democracy is a concern, Georgia was not a democracy when the Ossetians settled in what is now South Ossetia. The Ossetians have not been treated particularly well by Georgians and their desire to separate preceded a functioning democracy in Georgia.

  The South Ossetians have a cause and this cause creates a reason for Russian intervention. In other words, contrary to your claim, the Russians have an excuse. It is not that their excuse is unacceptable. It is that it is unacceptable to you.

  You asked if I support Russian intervention. My answer is, "Yes and no". It is "no" in that I do not support armed interventions--and democracy has nothing to do with this as far as I am concerned. It is "yes" in that I think Russia is right to resist the expansion of NATO and that when it finds a just cause that will help it do that I think it can make use of that cause.

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  TonyUS at 12:04 PM JST - 17th September

  Who’s land is it?? Is this a joke or what? It was always the border of Georgia until Russia tries to change that border. This is a no brainer!

  It is not a fair accusation to say the Ossetians as wanting anything because all the Ossetians are not of Russia as your words try to portray them as being. And if Russia is afraid of NATO then it shows that Russia still is part of the mindset of the west its enemy and if the west is its enemy then it is because has portrayed us as being and is keeping us their enemy.. So the Cold War is still on. Not with Soviet Union but what is left of it.. Big bad Russia.. And no. there is no excuse acceptable to me of Russia’s aggression against a smaller country that is no match to Russia’s power, because I do not support Russia in this case in any manner or in any way. You can if you wish but I sure the hell do not the main reason being, Russia has fallen back towards the government controlled country it was years ago. Also their attitude with Putin has fallen back to cold war tactics and aggression. If this is what you support and stand for , hey that is your problem not mine.

  Also democracy means a lot when you support that type of institution and that is the institution in Georgia politics. If you can not bring yourself to support that as well it is another problem of your own, not mine.

  As a just cause for Georgia wanting to be a member of NATO??? Another joke??? To stop this crap Russia’s bullying and its attacks upon others..

  Now should we go on speculating.. take a look at this report..

  Georgia: Intercepted calls prove self-defense http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080916/aponreeu/eugeorgiarussia;ylt=AhnanXqJKlIdANBWZz2i9P_uOrgF

  If this is true any argument of Russia going in to protect its so called Russian citizens which are actually Georgian citizens now, is that of a farce because all Russia has done was invade a neighboring country and for what? Nothing but for the simple reason of trying to provoke a war with Georgia because the leader is western friendly and Russia hates that. If this is true, no one can say that Georgia started anything but the fact would be, Russia was and is the Aggressor!

  Russia sounds and act just like the communist regime of China. Lies and deception. paint everyone the aggressor while the blame sits right on the shoulders of the portrayer in this case Russia. Even if this turns out to be false, Russia still had no right to invade Georgia or even have any troops stationed within Georgia's borders from the very beginning.

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  SezWho2 at 01:19 PM JST - 18th September

  TonyUS,

  Long before it was Georgia, it was Iberia and Colchis. These were kingdoms and not states as we know them today. That land has been fought over, settled and resettled from time immemorial. So, putting your rudeness aside, no, I am not joking. I'll resist comment on the "no-brainer".

  I notice also that you did not comment on the first inhabitants of Kosovo, the first inhabitants of Australia, the first inhabitants of the US. If prior and continuous habitation of a land is to be the test, I'd like to know what you would do about these situations and why. Democracy has not played into the border disputes of the past and there is no reason it should play into those at present.

  My words do not try to portray Ossetians as anything other than Ossetians. I don't know where you are getting that. It seems to me that you are building a straw man so that you can talk about democracy. Democracy has nothing to do with this except that Georgia would not be considered for NATO membership if it were not.

  NATO is now a perverse organization that has outlived its usefulness. If NATO were a sincere organization it would include Russia as one of its members. Russia is infinitely more qualified to be a part of any NATO that is not devoted to the containment of Russia but is instead devoted to encouraging democracy. Bad things happen when you try to punish powerful countries by exclusion or humiliation, as witness the treatment of Germany after WWI and the entirely different treatment after WWII. So, no, and once again not rising to your level of rudeness, I was not joking. The joke, if there is one, is the persistent use of sarcasm as a refutation.

  Yes, Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story regarding what happened. Did you ever know a politician to introduce evidence to claim something that was not the case? Let me know when it has been established that the phone intercepts prove what Georgia is now saying. Or should I ask that you let me know when what Georgia is only now saying is proven to be true.

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  TonyUS at 06:00 PM JST - 19th September

  Russia you are a joke with the statement of Russia more to be a member of NAO.. The reason NATO was started because of Russia and its aggression against its neighbors and others like it.

  I do not know where your little world is but it has made an impact on you that is far fetched and full of propaganda that is of deceit when it comes to trying to state facts that are nothing but false. Try to twist your statements that mean one thing and try to say they mean something else, Come on… Those that support suppression because of not knowing any better stay this course you are using to make an argument/ I would rather use sarcasm than some remarks that have nothing but deception stated within them.

  Is it Georgia trying to change the story or is it Putin and his goons lying? Seems you know the answer to that before the truth is even found out. Congratulations on your inside info..

  As aborigines go I am stating at this time SEZ…are those people that did not immigrate from screwed up Russia during the Soviet era, those that have ancestral ties to the land and yes there are those that live there which may be a minority at this time from the infiltration of Russians but they are still there and have every right to stay there and be part of the country of Georgia, but not in your twisted view of the matter. Oh you never said that?? Hahaha Yeah right. Now you say the Russians you have been defending are Georgians,, What the heck or where the heck did that come from? Well why the hell do they have Russian passports and this was in one of your posts that was a reason they neede to be protected, beez you are all over the place SEZ. Your words and statements or so contradicting and just getting down right pathetic.

  Seems you want to jump all over the idea that Russia is telling the truth and deny any assumption Georgia is lying and Russia is to blame.. Which Russia is to blame for all of this because they never left Independent Georgia to begin with. So your argument does not even have a base to start with/ Russia has been the main instigator from the very beginning and that is a statement of FACT. Take it as being rude if you wish but the truth is the truth like it or not. No trying to sugar coat the demon that is raising its head and there are many allies rethinking Russia's aggressive stance in the region , even Australia considering stopping sales of Uranium to them because of all this going on.. Sorry to say but you are standing with the losers and those seen as the one to instigate their own separation from the world and its affairs.. I know you just cannot stand that.. Big bad Russia is going back to its rightful position in the world to be Mr. Putin’s long time retraction of a society that is a friend to the world.. Putin started the reversal from the first time he became president with his KGB background leading his direction for the country. Too bad the people are willing to go back to where they fell from in the past.

  Call me rude?? It is fine I have heard China supporters attack those opposed to communist rule the same way.. I have debated many propagandists in the past mainly from China but here on this issue with Russia you are definitely a pro Russia propagandist, as for trying to twist statements you have made into meaning something other than what they were originally and to support another country invading another smaller less powerful one , it shows your remarkable sence of big guy controlling the little one. Oh you did not say that directly? :) It is being said with every one of your posts, twist it as you wish but the meaning is plain.

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  SezWho2 at 09:23 AM JST - 20th September

  TonyUS,

  Yes, NATO was started because of Soviet aggression. That is exactly why Russia is upset. Today's Russia is not yesterday's USSR but that is the lens through which the West continues to view Russian actions.

  You disparagingly speak of my "little world" in a tone which is nothing if not rude. And in the same paragraph you speak disparagingly of those who support suppression. The Georgians support suppression of the South Ossetians, Ossetian culture and the Ossetian language.

  Putin and his "goons" (notice how you use language that totally prejudices your arguments) may be lying. However, with the information about phone intercepts, Georgia is definitely trying to change the story. I don't know what actually happened--perhaps no more than you do--but I do know what the established story is: Georgia moved against Tskhinvali and then Russia responded. It could be true that Georgia is trying to correct that account. It is definitely true that Georgia is trying to change it.

  Your paragraph about "aborigines" is incoherent to me. The one thing that is clear from it is your contention that the Georgian minority have every right to enjoy Georgian customs and Georgian culture within the historic borders of Georgia. As before, however, you do not explain why that does not apply to the "aboriginal" Serbs in Kosovo. Nor do you explain how your concept of aboriginality applies to other countries and other cultures--Australia, the US, etc. Furthermore, you seem to suggest that the Georgian minority have the only claim to these lands, which, I think is not true. The Ossetians were driven into that area by the Huns, settled in an area called Kudar which is now part of South Ossetia. Ossetian claims in that particular part of the world are long and strong. Moreover, in this same paragraph, you say that I am now saying that the Russians I have been defending are Georgians. That is simply incorrect and I challenge you to find any textual support for that.

  You say that I want to "jump all over" the claim that Russia is telling the truth and Georgia is lying. That also is not correct. At the risk of being repetitive, I do not know who is telling the truth, but I do know what the established story is. I also know that the "phone-intercept" story hasn't gained much traction. Furthermore, you state as fact that Russia has been the prime instigator of all the problems in Georgia. That is not a fact. That is your supposition. Georgia faces legitimate ethnic problems from within and Georgia has dealt with these in a heavy-handed manner.

  Yes, I call you rude. I call you rude because you do not argue the points. Instead you use colored language, you disparage your interlocutor instead of defeating his points, you run from questions that are posed of you and demand the primacy of your own questions and your right to introduce prejudicial statements as fact. That is not only rude but a bit boorish as well. If you can manage to elevate the standard of your dialogue we can talk more on this point later. At this point, however, you offer only fulmination and not argument.

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  TonyUS at 12:44 PM JST - 20th September

  >

  Sez it is Russia's actions and their system that has faltered back to controls and its aggressive actions. .. And Why you defend such a government that has backpeddles on reforms.. There is something you are not telling. This is where you want to deny democracy as a part of this. Georgia is a democracy set with in invaded borders as we witness today SEZ.. A country set by laws and of the will of its people within these borders and S. Ossetia is within these borders and not of RUSSIA.Get it?? That is not too hard of a point to let settle in. Look at a map if you need it more defined..watch the news they will show you a map of the borders and where S. Ossetia lies. Within these borders lies a government that is voted in by the majority vote of the people... Still with me??? Now where did I miss something when it comes to soverienty of a country?? Tell me where you bring Russia ahaving a right to be within Georgia's borders with a government in place and voted into place for that country by the majority of the country. S,Ossetia is full of separatists along with incividuals that are for a united government that was elected in by even some of these people that live in S. Ossetia that do not have Russian passports.. that you say has claim to????? What is that statement all abuout.. Again get you a map and look at the borders that Russia has trampled over and from the beginning stayed within.

  again Exactly .,. the Georgians you are Georgians that migrated there during the Soviet Union

  here is one of your post that you say you are not sure of now but was earlier..as you said above...

  Furthermore, you seem to suggest that the Georgian minority have the only claim to these lands, which, I think is not true.

  TonyUS,

  I don't know how many times that I have to say that I know that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. No matter how many times you repeat this fact, it adds nothing to your argument. No matter how many times you suggest that I don't know this fact, it adds nothing to your argument.

  here is where your assumption that Georgia is lying and now say you did not take a stance as such

  Yes, Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story regarding what happened. Did you ever know a politician to introduce evidence to claim something that was not the case? Let me know when it has been established that the phone intercepts prove what Georgia is now saying. Or should I ask that you let me know when what Georgia is only now saying is proven to be true. But you do not say prove that Russia's story is the truth and that it is an established story when it is only Russia that come out with that statatement, I seen where there was anything to back that as being the truth .only Russia's statement.

  I'm also aware of that South Ossetians do not want to be part of Georgia.

  And who are S, Ossetians??? You are wrong.. not all wish that , it may be the majority there but those are migrants from Soviet Union which is the majority and the arguement has been all along that Russia's actions was to protect these people with Russian passports as if these people are Russian citizens, and they are not. Your littel twist here is trying to catagorize them as Ossetians instaed of Georgians, in which they are, but for some reason have Russian passports instead of Georgian passports.

  I do not argue the points? All I list are points and facts while you want your words to mean one thing until you are confronted on them, then you say you d id notmean it in that text but something different.. just have to shake my head. You are all over the place SEZ even when it comes to your own statements.

  As for who planned what and who was first to act, no has proven anything on either side so let us see the proof from one of them to confirm their statements as to the order of events. No one knows if there has been no proof brought forward including Russia.

  W

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  SezWho2 at 10:26 PM JST - 21st September

  TonyUS,

  I find your post to be toxic. The quotations that you use to try to prove that I am being inconsistent instead prove that you do not understand and that, in fact, you are not even paying attention. If you could manage to make an argument without making it personal, we could continue this little discussion. But instead you seem to want to make this personal and have chosen to adopt a sophomoric style of rebuttal. You do not even afford the courtesy required by the guidelines of the message board.

  Let's just take two cases in point, focusing on the first two instances in which you have used my words to try to demonstrate imaginary inconsistency:

  First, there is no inconsistency between saying that Ossetians have a claim to the land and that South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. If you are going to argue aboriginality, Ossetians have a claim. If you are going to argue current legality, South Ossetia is a part of Georgia. This is really not very difficult to understand.

  Second, the long quote beginning with "Yes, Georgia is trying to change..." is incorrectly attributed to me. Part of those words I have written. Another part was written by someone else. If this is not dishonesty on your part then it indicates sloppy thinking and faulty reasoning.

  If you will pay closer attention you will find that I have never said that Georgia is lying and I have never reversed my position. What I said was:

  (a) Georgia is trying to change the prevailing story. This does not assert truth to the prevailing story, and

  (b) Georgia's version of the story could be true.

  Again, there is no inconsistency.

  Your argument against my points is predicated on statements that I have never made. You attribute sinister motives to me because I do not believe that it makes a difference that Georgia is a democracy and when I say that the right or wrong of Russian action has nothing to do with the form of Georgia's government. You abuse the privilege of using my screen name, using it far too often for common politeness and capitalizing it to make some imaginary point and you attempt to patronize me with your "Get it?"s and other snotty jibes.

  I think we're done here. I have always tried to disagree without being personally disagreeable, but you are determined to be disagreeable and in the future I shall happily make an exception in your case.

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  TonyUS at 04:30 PM JST - 23rd September

  yes sez this is dumb to continue an arguement when you and I will never see eye to eye on the issue, Just as Russia does not see eye to eye with The US Europe or any other western democracy or those that are western allies even Australia. Seems there are not too many that stands with you and Russia on this point. Even China wich I demise stays silent on this issue because of the well deserved sepratists that could benifit in that country from what Russia is standing for there in Georgia. Russia is not getting much support from any where except from those that are threats to democracies around the world still today. Like a new Warsaw pact but with out the democratic Warsaw of today, but same idiology of that group in the past.

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