Sadr urged to do more to stem bloodshed

Thursday 24th April, 05:13 AM JST

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SuperLib at 02:04 AM JST - 26th April

Enough already of that tired old soundbyte.

Sadr? Bush lied. The surge? Bush lied. Saddam? Bush lied. Iran? Bush lied. Syria? Bush lied. Israel? Bush lied. The economy? Bush lied. Taxes? Bush lied. The pizza's late? Bush lied. That soundbyte are his earplugs....it blocks any and all new information from entering his head. When you actually bring up the specifics on any situation you're just pulling his string. :)

Here, let me show you:

Daydream, do you think about Sadr's policies and practices?

pulling string
WhiteHawk at 02:20 AM JST - 26th April

SuperLib,

Bush lied about the surge working? Funny, nobody told my B-i-L-to-be. He recently returned from another tour in Iraq, and said the surge has worked great.

But he's only been there, maybe you know more about the situation than he does...?
adaydream at 03:16 AM JST - 26th April

MMMMMMMMM

Sounds like the right get tired of reading the truth.

They get so tired of seeing this war go straight down hill and knowing all along that it was contrived out of lies for greed and revenge.

Sure, if my country was attacked by a warmongering country, I'd be fighting and fighting till I helped push the occupiers out. But you folks sound as iff you'd lay down and just roll over for the occupiers.

Al-Sadr is doing what he sees as the right thing to do against invaders, occupiers, thieves and thugs. But you make it sound as if he's a bad man.

SuperLib, if Iran attacked us, would you just give up and allow them to rule our country as they see fit? Zaphod, would you be for allowing Iraq to decide who gets the natural resourses of our country? Please give me a show of "Oh Yea!! from all those who would be allowing Irani soldiers to walk our streets as the law of the land!!

Next!!...
WhiteHawk at 03:20 AM JST - 26th April

SuperLib, I apologize for that.
adaydream at 04:06 AM JST - 26th April

SuperLib, if Iran attacked us, would you just give up and allow them to rule our country as they see fit? You didn't answer.

Would you just allow the occuping regime to just give away your natural resourses to their friendly interests without retaliating?

Would you allow the occupiers to just walk up and down your streets without trying to kick some occupiers butt?

Would you follow a leader within this country, who stood up against the occupiers?

Where do you stand SuperLib?
WhiteHawk at 04:47 AM JST - 26th April

adaydream, are you seriously putting Iraq under Saddam's dictatorship on the same level as America?
SuperLib at 05:05 AM JST - 26th April

See what I mean, WhiteHawk? It's actually a fascinating case study in psychology. He removes all context from the situation by changing "US troops" to "occupiers" and "radical Shiite cleric" to "freedom fighter," then he makes his case from there. That way in his mind he's not advocating the death of his countrymen, he's supporting the American ideal of freedom. Not only that, he's saying he'd do the same thing. The mental switch is so strong that he's actually saying he'd join a hardline Muslim in killing US soldiers.

Isn't it an absolutely stunning result? The debate is actually over the context. Since I've added it back in he'll have to respond by stripping it all away again. When he feels he's done that sufficiently he'll once again state his position based on the neutral vocabulary. Watch it happen...

pulling the string
GeorgeRouault at 05:12 AM JST - 26th April

America´s war is worse than Saddam´s dictatorship. US doesn´t care about Iraq what do they care? They don´t. They went in and ruined the country and now they want us to belive they care. US should go home. They are there to install a puppet and have permanent bases to help Israeli expansion while coming with BS propaganda such as freedom and liberty. Occupiers and invaders on a pack of lies.
adaydream at 05:17 AM JST - 26th April

Allow me to rewrite my post so you don't whine.

SuperLib, if Iran attacked us, would you just give up and allow Iran to rule our country as they see fit? You didn't answer.

Would you just allow the Iranians to just give away your natural resourses to their friendly interests without retaliating?

Would you allow the Iranians to just walk up and down your streets without trying to kick some Iranians butt?

Would you follow a leader within this country, who stood up against the Iranians?

Where do you stand SuperLib?

Or shall I writre it like so?, If you were Iraqi and the Americans had stolen your country, would you stand up and kill the American occupiers?

If you were Iraqi and the Americans came into your country and gave away your natural resourses to their friends, would you stand up against the Americans?

If you were an Iraqi and Americans had come into your neighborhood and raped a 14 year old girl. Would you be looking for a way to get back at the Americans?

SuperLib?
WhiteHawk at 05:17 AM JST - 26th April

Ah yes, I see what you mean now. I've witnessed such logic-torture before. It's always as frightening as it is entertaining. On the one hand, you're thinking "wow, it's fun to watch this person do this to themselves, just to meet the criteria of their own prejudice", but then you realize "oh no, this person is free to roam publicly". :)

Of course, if he really believed his own rhetoric, he would actually join these "freedom fighters". So he's really just trying to see if he can convince anyone else as well as he's convinced himself.
WhiteHawk at 05:24 AM JST - 26th April

GeorgeRouault:

America´s war is worse than Saddam´s dictatorship. US doesn´t care about Iraq what do they care? They don´t. They went in and ruined the country and now they want us to belive they care. US should go home. They are there to install a puppet and have permanent bases to help Israeli expansion while coming with BS propaganda such as freedom and liberty.

America doesn't care about Iraq? If that were the case, we would've put their oil on our ships and left them to put the country back together by themselves (and fight off Iran and Syria at the same time).

As for the "puppet", who would that puppet be? Oh, that's right, you don't know because the Iraqi people haven't chosen him yet.

Israel wants to expand? Where did you hear that, at your KKK meeting? Israel wants to expand into Iraq? Syria? Lebanon? Iran? News to me.
adaydream at 05:25 AM JST - 26th April

I'm seriously stating that if I was an Iraqi and I'd seen what America had done to my country, you bet your life I'd be looking for a way to get back at the Americans.

If I was an Iraqi and I'd seen my country's infracstructure destroyed by the Americans, you bet I'd be looking for a way to sabatage the country that attacked me.

But you gentlemen make it sound as if, it makes no difference where your allegence lies or your personal beliefs, only America is right. Strike down all Iraqi's that want to stand up for their belief's.
adaydream at 06:31 AM JST - 26th April

So what's wrong with the context of my kwestions now? Since you still can't get the cajones to answer a direct kwestion. Should I reword it for you, again?
Zaphod at 03:28 PM JST - 26th April

adaydream:

What kind of "Iraqi" are you talking about? Sunni, Shiite, Kurd, Christian? Has there been on single terroist attack by Kurds?
SuperLib at 03:49 PM JST - 26th April

daydream you're caught in your "what if" trap and if you can't see the light then I can't imagine I'll be able to type a few words and bring you out of the darkness. As much as I want to help you, and I really do, I know that it's probably not going to happen.

Let me try a different approach with my own "what if" scenario....

Imagine I tell you this story: A criminal (John) is holding someone hostage and it looks like he's about to shoot the hostage. A policeman (Mike) enters the situation and kills the criminal (John). Given the facts of the situation I'm guessing you'd support the use of lethal force.

But instead of telling you the specifics of the situation, imagine I completely remove the context of the police officer and the criminal. All I say to you is this: Today Mike shot John. He shot him dead. Do you support one person killing another?

Do you see how removing the specifics of the situation can produce an entirely different response?

The example isn't used to make you believe the US is a police officer and Sadr is a criminal. That's not what this exercise is about. It's about ways to present information to trick someone into supporting something they really don't support and vice versa. Usually it's used by someone tricking another, but you're actually doing it to yourself.

Opinion polls often use the same propaganda. They get you to agree with some bland, non-specific concept such as "Do you support the environment." You say, "Yes, of course." Then they take your yes answer and insert it into a specific situation that you most likely do not agree with. For example, maybe it's a group that want to ban all cars. They say, "See, daydream supports our ban on cars. He answered 'Yes' to our survey."

Your "what if" scenario isn't even credible. You're imagining Iran invading America and you're leaving it at that. You're thinking about how much you enjoy your country and freedom and you're imaging someone coming in and taking that away and you'd fight for it. And it's a noble cause.

But that's not the reality of Iraq. In reality Iraq was run by a brutal dictator that committed genocide against his own people. They don't like the US being on their soil, but they sure as hell aren't going to fight to remove elections and restore a man like Saddam again. Your imagination removes their reality and inserts your reality, then you're commenting on how they would feel based on your reality. That's where your argument falls apart. Just the simple fact that a vast majority of Iraqis do not take up arms against the US should tell you that your opinion might be different from theirs. Add to that the fact that Iraqis are fighting with Americans to counter Sadr should also tell you that you're not accurately describing what they feel. And since Sadr is fighting to remove democracy and install his Shiite agenda that should tell you "freedom fighter" isn't an accurate description at all. There are so many glaring examples in the reality of the situation that your thought process removes entirely when making a decision.

You've warped the situation to such an extent that your comments only make sense in your "what if" vacuum. All of your comments are actually a barrier you're putting up to keep yourself locked in that vacuum. But at some point you're going to have to exit that vacuum and deal with the specifics of the situation at hand.