Santorum: No apology needed for Koran burning

"Republican presidential hopeful Rick Santorum criticized President Barack Obama’s apology for the burning of Korans in Afghanistan, adding that Afghanistan should apologize to the U.S. for the deaths of four U.S. soldiers .

Huh?

This is pretty much exactly what Gingrich said about this same issue when the news broke.

The only difference is Newt's comments were timely and relevant, while Santorum's comments are..what....a good week late?

Where has Rick been all that time?

Consumed by his pet social issues, that’s where.

It's very interesting to see the conversation among the Republican presidential candidates steer to and so far, stay on social issues.

As I and others have asked before: the economy is a mess. Why are they discussing social issues.?

It should be obvious by now.

1/ the GOP can't run on its economic record: the GOP handed incoming president Obama a tanked economy that was losing 500,000 jobs a month. That same economy is now adding 200,000 jobs per month.

2/ The Republicans can't run on national security (an area they have traditionally been strong in). Why? Even after Republicans squandered billions of taxpayer dollars hunting Osama Bin Laden, even after GWB famously declared he "didn't care" whether the very man responsible for 911 was dead or alive and basically gave up looking, President Obama didn't stop giving a damn, ramped up the search and took OBL out in a decisive action described by the former Secretary of Defense as one of the bravest acts he had ever seen.

President Obama has issued orders that have since led to the capture and death of 10 times as many top-tiered Al Qaeda guys in 3 years than Bush and the Republicans did in 8 years.

RESULT: Republicans: WEAK on defense.

So, what's left? Social issues, the last remaining bastion of Republican greatness, if you can call it that.

The unfortunate downside is that to be 'strong' in social issues in the U.S. election debate, you've got to:

1/ wear your Christian faith on your sleeve, thus alienating yourself from every non-Christian voter and going against your own country's Atheist Constitution that was written by men who wanted to break AWAY from religion (the CoE).

2/ be anti-abortion and thus anti-women's rights, anti-contraception (hello? Didn't the contraception debate end 30 years ago??), anti-gay marriage, and now in Rick Santorum's case, anti-sodomy too - positions that alienate huge swaths of voters.

This GOP is turning out be a gift from the heavens for the Democrats. :-)

I think Santorum would then find himself in disagreement with US military commanders in the field. Not apologizing would put American personnel at greater risk of attack.

These GOP candidates need to understand that this is not an simply an ideological debate. Everyone, including Obama, knows the error was unintentional and the Muslim reaction over the top. As commander in chief, however, he does not have the luxury of taking an arrogant position like Santorum's that ignores realities on the ground.

Not apologizing would put American personnel at greater risk of attack.

Yes, apologizing sure has made things safe over there. Thank goodness for understanding.

Liberal wordview:

Apologies for the (real or invented) buring of korans: needed. Apologies for muslim rioters who have murdered a dozen people by now: not needed at all. The poor fellows just can´t help themselves. We cannot hold them responsible for what they do.

Just brilliant.

Burning of the Korans or not, I thought it was a peaceful religion....

We cannot hold them responsible for what they do.

They are a mob, not a government. Is it standard procedure for a president to demand an apology from a group of rioters?

I have no esteem whatsoever for Islamic extremism or the goons who follow it. But that should not stop Obama from apologizing for a mistake, which burning the Korans was. Do the Taliban now feel emboldened because they sense Obama is a weenie? Would a non-apology from President Santorum/Gingrich leave them quivering in their sandals?

If President Obama did not apologize , then the Republicans will say it' a war on religion.

Is it standard procedure for a president to demand an apology from a group of rioters?

When religious leaders keep encouraging or ignoring such rioters, I do think they should apologize on behalf of the mayhem they help to create.

Santorum is so far out of his depth here he makes a desert look like a spring tide.

He needs to get back to focussing on his area of expertise: imposing 17th century social shackles on 21st century Americans.

He does real well at that.

Ben, are you another poster who pretends for the sake of a poor argument not to be aware the Afghan government and president Karzai don't have control over their own country, let alone the religious leaders??

let alone the religious leaders??

Gimme a break. Who do you think encourages this kind of behavior at the mosques? Basically, the Taliban is still very much in control of the country and the religion. Karzai wants to give it to them officially, too. I see no reason to keep apologizing to people who idolize a book more than human life. I say the US and other forces should get out of the country and leave them to their own devices. They had a chance to change their country and they blew it.

“The response needs to be apologized for by (President Hamid) Karzai and the Afghan people for attacking and killing our men and women in uniform and overreacting to this inadvertent mistake,” Santorum said on NBC’s “Meet the Press”. “That is the real crime here, not what our soldiers did.”

No, Rick. The apology was for the moderates who probably would feel some kind of sincerity attached to it. Obama doesn't go around apologizing for regular citizens like the nutjob who tried to burn the Koran last year.

The only difference is Newt's comments were timely and relevant, while Santorum's comments are..what....a good week late?

That what happens when you're asked a question about it on The Sunday Talk shows a week later.

@BJ

Why would one imagine that burning the Koran would not be enough of an act to provoke a violent reaction?

The muslims that I have met have embraced their religion and its teachings with the utmost respect.

An occupying force burns a holy book and you don't expect a reaction?

How would the Israelis react if a group of Palestinians burned the Torah in the center of Tel Aviv?

How about some Muslims burning the Christian Bible in the Bible Belt of the US?

I am sure that you have the capacity to imagine what could be the outcome of such an act-as the US soldiers should have.....

I do agree that the US should stop meddling in the affairs of Afghanistan and end their de facto occupation though.

“This was something that happened as a mistake. "

Exactly, people should apologize for their mistakes, Mr. Santorum. and bear the consequences.

Santorum and the Taliban followers have similar views on morals and human behaviour. But because they follow different mythologies they are at each others throats. If this lunatic makes it to the top (unlikely but who knows in the US) then we have the Crusades made modern...... Could he be the Antichrist?

sailwindFeb. 27, 2012 - 10:38AM JST : The only difference is Newt's comments were timely and relevant, while Santorum's comments are..what....a good week late? That what happens when you're asked a question about it on The Sunday Talk shows a week later.

It's only been a week since it happened like 6 days ago. The news reported on February 21st. Japan is one day ahead of the States.

"Santorum's comments are... what... a good week late?"

"That's what happens when you're asked a question about it on the Sunday talk shows a week later."

Good one.

“This was something that happened as a mistake. "

Exactly, people should apologize for their mistakes, Mr. Santorum. and bear the consequences

Love-not,

He's pretty clear that it was a mistake and the U.S should take full responsibility for it. But that it was not deliberate act and by apologizing that is impression that the U.S has given. That the burning of the Koran's was a deliberate malicious act on our part.

Santorum says that rather than saying he was sorry, Obama should have only acknowledged that burning copies of Islam’s holiest book in a trash pit was wrong and taken responsibility for the incident, “but to apologize, I think, lends credibility that somehow or another that it was more than that.”

.

Why isn't Santorum running for the Taliban again? Seems like if he got the chance, he'd feel very comfortable installing Sharia law in America. 

For the record from the ABC This Week Transcript: .....his exact quote was this:

I think what we say is, look, what happened here was wrong. But it was -- it was not something that was deliberate, and we are -- we -- you know, we take responsibility for it. It's unfortunate. But to apologize, I think, lends credibility that somehow or another that it was more than that.

@sailwind--I don't see at all how apologizing gives an impression that it was a deliberate act. If your kid accidentally breaks a vase at a friend's house, do you not apologize?

Santorum and the other GOP candidates have a pre-established narrative of Obama being weak-kneed in foreign policy, which is a pretty far stretch of the imagination considering the scale of military action under his administration. Santorum is barking up the wrong tree.

kurisupisu,

They burned the books privately on their base. It was not out in public. It was wrong, really wrong, but do not exaggerate what happened. There are enough people doing that and being killed in the process. I am sure many Muslims embrace their own religion and its teachings with respect. Then there are those, like these rioters, that ignore the teachings in Islam about forgiveness. I have never said I did not expect a reaction. What I said, and I thought I was quite clear, is that violent reactions should not be sanctioned or excused by religious leaders. These soldiers did not burn the books in the center of town, did they? Then your question about other religious books being burned in the center of town has no relation to this discussion. By the way, since you asked, how many have been killed as a result of burnings of Bibles and the like in recent history? Cartoons and books are not more important than human life. Violent reactions that lead to the deaths, in many cases of the protesters themselves, should not be sanctioned, encouraged or excused.

Exactly, people should apologize for their mistakes, Mr. Santorum. and bear the consequences.

No, if it was not deliberate act, as it seems it was not, that there should be an apology and forgiveness.

Santorum also said that separation of church and state "makes me want to throw up." Perhaps he could kill two birds with one stone by throwing up on the Koran. In Santorumland, it's one theocracy against the other, after all.

Laguna,

His entire qoute was:

"I don't believe in an America where the separation of church and state are absolute," he told 'This Week' host George Stephanopoulos. "The idea that the church can have no influence or no involvement in the operation of the state is absolutely antithetical to the objectives and vision of our country...to say that people of faith have no role in the public square? You bet that makes me want to throw up."

I would harbor a quess that even you are glad that a Baptist Minister by the name of Martin Luther King Jr had added his voice to the public square. I know I am.

An occupying force burns a holy book and you don't expect a reaction?

How would the Israelis react if a group of Palestinians burned the Torah in the center of Tel Aviv?

I would expect a reaction, but killing in the name of a written scripture? Islam, Muslim, Christian, or whetever....I don't think so.

I would expect a reaction, but killing in the name of a written scripture? Islam, Muslim, Christian, or whetever....I don't think so.

Exactly. I cannot figure out why people seem to be willing to accept violent reactions as a reasonable reaction. It strikes me as rather condescending. Oh, don't you understand? It is natural that Muslims should react violently kind of thinking just stumps me. It is not natural, nor is it correct.

I would expect a reaction, but killing in the name of a written scripture? Islam, Muslim, Christian, or whetever....I don't think so.

when fanatics are involved it was unavoidable.

Ben - "It strikes me as rather condescending. Oh, don't you understand? It is natural that Muslims should react violently kind of thinking just stumps me. It is not natural, nor is it correct."

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but what you or others think is "right" is irrelevant.

Your logic applies to Afghan religious culture and its people about as much as theirs does to yours and you.

ie: zip.

And among the real and wannabe leaders in America, president Obama's the only one who understands this.

Sorry to burst your bubble mate but what you or others think is "right" is irrelevant.

Maybe. However, the same goes for those who think idolizing a book is more important than human life. Surprised you would side with that side.

Your logic applies to Afghan religious culture and its people about as much as theirs does to yours and you.

Perhaps you could point out where killing and rioting over a book is part of 'Afghan religious culture'. I constantly hear how people should be understanding these extremists. Nah, not until they try even the least to understand themselves. Until then, they are just a bunch of nuts overreacting and doing so very violently.

In fact, let me continue: Sushi you obsess with Santorum and his religious agenda and yet ignore or seemingly excuse the violence due to religous extremism we have seen in recent days . Could you share how you can manage this? Santorum may be an unrealistic religously obsessive candidate, but I have not seen him calling for killing and riots over religion. Maybe I just missed that part, huh?

Let me get this straight.....I'm no pro at understanding any religion, but how do you believe in a cow being sacred, but killing a fellow human being? If a person gets so worked up over the burning of thier written scripture, I would take it that they are "believers?" So killing a cow...NO,....but killing another human...YES? hmmmmmmm....

Santorum is an idiot! If this idiot, heaven forbid, ever becomes US prez, this idiot fool will make George Bush Jr. look like a shining example of what is a good prez, would not be surprised if this idiot Santorum would even start WW3!!

I'm trying to put myself in the shoes (or sandals) of an Afghan.

Your Koran is your Holy Book, your guide book towards life as a muslim. The words in the Koran are supposed to be those of the Prophet Mohammed.

So, If I were an Afghani muslim, I would interpret 'burning the Koran' as 'burning the words of the Holy Prophet Mohammed' and, being a muslim, I would obviously be upset over this.

However, as Ben_Jackinoff said,

"It is natural that Muslims should react violently kind of thinking just stumps me", considering that it is meant to be a religion of peace and forgiveness.

So what is the real cause behind this event and many other terrible incidents we constantly hear coming from Afghanistan? It is the reaction of a people who are most probably sick of war (going on 10 years now, not to mention the war with the Soviets in the '70s so we cannot even begin to imagine what kind of state of mind they are in), and terrified in a land run by extremists and druglords. Does that condone such actions as killing people to avenge the burning of your holy book? No, but we all know how humans can and do act in a war. The animal within is unleashed. I'm not referring to any one particular race but ALL mankind.

The Afghan people are lost and bewildered. They don't know who is running the country any more nor who to trust. Some of them listen to and obey the Taliban but 9 times out of 10 not out of respect and sympathy but simply because of FEAR. And fear will drive people to do terrible things, purely for the sake of survival. The country is a total mess.

I don't believe in an America where separation of church and state is absolute.

Santorum continued, "Like that 'Thou shalt not kill' part - we can ignore that, what with capital punishment and the military industrial complex and all - yeah, I'm definitely pro-separating that kind of thing. In fact, when I say 'not absolute,' what I mean is 'separation of MY INTERPRETATION of church and state. "

Any religion that advocates killing anyone who draws cartoon characters of their god does not deserve an apology for anything. Any religion that advocates killing anyone for defacing their holy book does not deserve an apology for anything. Any religion that routinely stones its people to death for religious infractions does not deserve an apology for anything. Any religion that has a basic concept in its teachings that anyone who is an unbeliever is to be killed for the glory of their god, does not deserve an apology for anything. Any religion that treats its women as less than human and has a basic premise that women are unclean, does not deserve an apology for anything.

Oh, I understand why he wants you to go to college. He wants to remake you in his image.

Santorum continued, "Not black, I mean - though no doubt he would do that too if he could. I mean that he wants you EDUCATED, which would in turn tend to make you TOLERANT and enable you to think rationally for yourselves. We can't have that, and by 'we,' I mean the Republican Party: the party dominated by the under-educated. Ever read 'Animal Farm'? No? I didn't think so - and that's good. You are my base, and by clinging to your religion and guns, you will remain so."

Santorum continued, "Like that 'Thou shalt not kill' part - we can ignore that, what with capital punishment and the military industrial complex and all - yeah, I'm definitely pro-separating that kind of thing. In fact, when I say 'not absolute,' what I mean is 'separation of MY INTERPRETATION of church and state. "

Channeling Santorum?

Isn't this more like since he is a Republican and a Conservative that does not dovetail with your politics as to t"separation of church and state" that you find so disconcerting. There is no doubt that others who are people of deep faith have used their faith in the public square and affective great political change in the "state" for the betterment of all not just in the United States but all over the world, Bishop Desmond Tutu, Ghandi, Mother Teresa just to name a few besides Martin Lurther King Jr. is this not historical fact?

Bishop Desmond Tutu, Ghandi, Mother Teresa, and Martin Lurther King Jr. all have two things in common: they made history-changing contributions to the world; and they each belonged to different religious traditions. As such, they would most certainly oppose any mingling of church and state.

Laguna,

An article from the left leaning Huffington Post is a most excellent read on the subject:

King's life challenges conventional wisdom on both the political right and left about the proper relationship between faith and politics. First of all, Christianity is not necessarily politically conservative. Secondly, America's political history would evidently be worse if Christianity had played no part in it.

King believed that religion and politics must remain distinct from one another, yet not entirely separate. He wrote the following: "The church must be reminded that it is not the master or the servant of the state, but rather the conscience of the state. It must be the guide and the critic of the state, and never its tool."

King's view bears repeating: The church must guide the state (listen, ye followers of Hitchens), but never become a mere political tool (hark, ye followers of Falwell).

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nathan-harden/the-faith-of-martin-luthe_b_427143.html

incident is isolated-it is not.

Bodily mutilations,civilian deaths,corpse defilement etc.

All of the above have been meted out in Afghanistan by US soldiers. Almost (officially) 3,000 deaths in the country due to foreigners killing the indigenous population.

How should the people react to this situation Ben?

How would you?

Do you really think that it is necessary for some evil mullah to whip the population to shed some foreign blood? What has really pushed the Afghan people to attack the good ol' US of A?

Now, if anger is vented at an occupying opposing force (army) by civilians of Afghanistan and the occupying soldiers become collateral damage then that is the toss of the dice.

If you take a moment to check the link below you will see that President Karzai has labeled the US military as 'an occupying force'-what do you suppose he means?

The leader of Afghanistan labels the US an occupying force,work that one out

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_caused_by_ISAF_and_US_Forces_in_the_War_inAfghanistan%282001%E2%80%93present%29#Civilian_and_overallcasualties.282011.29

Gee and all this time I though apologizing meant "acknowledging that something was wrong and taking responsibility for it" crazy me... I'll try and remember this next I forget to leave the seat down for my wife... *"You know honey, it was wrong of me to leave it up and I take full responsibility for it but I'm not sorry ...cause that would mean somehow or another that by me leaving it up was more than that." *

kurisupisu,

Your are mistaking me for someone that wants to see foreign troops continue to stay there. I don't. Karzai is going to sell his country out to the Taliban. Then, they will destroy him. I don't put much into what he says.

However, now you are arguing that the protests have nothing to do with Islam, that they have to do with violence acted upon them by US forces. Again, could you please point out the protests against the Taliban when they bomb markets, etc? I am having trouble finding them.

How would I react to burning of a book? I might or might not protest. I would not threaten to kill or attempt to kill anyone over it. Would you?

Do you really think that it is necessary for some evil mullah to whip the population to shed some foreign blood?

Yup. I do. Witness reaction to cartoons published in Europe, which unless I am mistaken is not anywhere near Afghanistan. Deaths and death threats. Tell me again about how the mullah do not whip the population into a frenzy. Then maybe you can tell me some other fairy tales.

But, but, but I thought it was a religion of peace?

There is nothing wrong with religion, it's people that screw things up!

Accident or not, an apology is the right thing to do because the actions caused a great deal of offense to a group of people. The American Government are not above apologising to groups of people. And it doesn't matter that the religion in question is associated with groups that oppose the US - the right thing to do is apologise. Thank God President Obama is empathetic enough to see that.

Accident or not, an apology is the right thing to do because the actions caused a great deal of offense to a group of people.

When do apologies lose their meanings?

Santorum is 100% correct here. Obama apologizing for this is a national disgrace to American people.

Remember people, Islami violence is by no means limited to Afghanistan. In the Cartoon Controversy, violence reigned from Syria to Gaza to Pakistan. The irony was that the original cartoons (as published in Denmark) weren't even the ones that caused the uproar- the imams had to use fake cartoons to whip up the crowd.

Oh, and the newspaper that printed them also apologized. Didn't seem to do much good as the violence continued, including attacks on the artists.

Also lost in the issue is the allegation that prisoners themselves defaced the Korans first, using them to pass messages back and forth. That defacement is what prompted the burning. Perhaps the guards should have consulted someone as to the proper way to dispose of the books, but that is easy to say in hindsight.

So, it seems that apologies dont work, and that the violence will happen regardless.

Frankly, that place isn't worth another drop of blood or dollar of aid. Let them wallow in their medieval wasteland unhindered.

Questions unanswered in the world press: Why were Korans left on a US base in an unsupervised area? How many were burned? How is it that the burning was discovered? Isn't that telling? Are Service personnel aware of Islamic laws concerning the Holy Koran? These are questions that might be addressed. The violence doesn't make sense unless the action was judged as an intentional violation.

it is surprising that so many Democrats fall for what they themselves are so adept at producing. I am talking of course about manufactured outrage.

There are videos all over the net the last two days of a Koran dumping in Pakistan a couple years ago. Their holy books dumped in a filthy ditch. No shrieking crowds, Islamic rage boys foaming at the mouth, going on killing sprees . Just some old Pakistani guy lamenting the treatment a bunch of old books got.

Oddly, I haven't heard about WHY the books were being burned. Even an atheist would probably not burn writings that are commonly known as scriptures to one religious group or another. This seems to only show either utter insensitivity to the local culture or utter contempt, either of which are unacceptable. The fact that Santorum The Sanctimonious uttered something so stupid should come as no surprise. I may disagree with BHO about everything, but in this one case as Commander-in-Chief he has to take the heat and apologize. HOWEVER, the rioting and killings are also wrong.

Burning of the Korans or not, I thought it was a peaceful religion....

Who said this was anything about religion - it is a deliberate attempt to incite hatred amongst Aghanis against the NATO forces, those thugs think they can oust NATO this way, and clearly are desperate in their methods now.

Obama did the right thing, because the ordinary people in Afghanistan need to see the proper balance restored. The hatred provoked by Taliban vs the warmth of US president. If Sanitorium was president, the situation would escalate way out of control, and you would have sharpened the tools the Taliban are using in order to recruit more followers.

@J4p4nFTW. We are not disgraced at all. That's my President, my Commander in Chief. He did exactly what I expected him to do. He took the high road. He admitted that a serious error in judgement had been made. He sought to mend instead of defend.

Instead I am honored by him and extremely appreciative that America has a sensible President.

America can not afford to have an idiot at the helm of a nuclear nation who believes he his too high, too proud to offer an apology when one is rightfully due. We'd be just like Japan if we had politicians like that.

Obama is on track when it comes to representing the diversity of America. It doesnt stop at our borders.

He admitted that a serious error in judgement had been made.

Burning a Koran is never a serious error in judgement.It is always the correct course of action.

The reasons for the violent reaction are not from one action but many. Unfortunately, it is not just the burning of a book that is the issue but 3000 deaths caused by foreign armies and their pviolence as well. (see the link in my prev post)

@Ben_jackinoff

As to the question as to whether I would feel the need to kill someone (over the Koran) is answered in the post above and is purely hypothetical but you can be sure that if one of my family had been murdered or maimed by an invader's bomb or bullet that I might feel the need for justice. Lastly,to debate whether the Taliban is more or less evil than the US army is surely a topic for another day and post?

I'll try and remember this next I forget to leave the seat down for my wife... *"You know honey, it was wrong of me to leave it up and I take full responsibility for it but I'm not sorry ...cause that would mean somehow or another that by me leaving it up was more than that." *

I somehow doubt President Obama is going to write a formal letter of apology to his wife that he left the seat up. It would then be a documented record and she might hold him accountable for any such infractions in the future.

Sushi: "Santorum... he'd feel very comfortable installing Sharia law in America"

Um, no, he wouldn't.

kurisupisu,

You write as if you seem to know these violent protesters very well. However, when interviewed, they talk about the burning as the reason, just as the cartoons were the reason for deaths and threats all over the world. The burning seems to be the main reaons they want the occupation to end. If these people were protesting violence, they would have been out in the streets when the Taliban poured acid over young girls who just wanted to get educations, or when the Taliban kills police officers or kills and maims normal people going about their days in markets, not just when their books are burned or someone draws a cartoon. However, I have not seen such protests, have you? People say the apologies are a great thing. I think they are the civilized thing to do, but they are never accepted anyway. The deaths and threats continue, apology or no apology.