Scotland begins historic independence vote

I wish the same for Hongkong and China. In many cases, independence is more practical than being under another state's selfish governance.

Good luck to the Scots and thank you for the impetus. Goodbye Texas, don't let the door hit you.

A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to vote for self-determination. Will the fear-mongerers have stirred up enough fears to scuttle the vote for independence?

I certainly hope the losing side will accept the result without acrimony. Despite it being a divisive issue, I would hate to see it break up families or friendships.

@Brainiac. If it's a close vote the losing side will be screaming it's a fix. It won't end tomorrow. This nastiness will go on for years, the damage is done.

It won't end tomorrow. This nastiness will go on for years, the damage is done.

Elizabeth - are you saying the vote should never have been held, that the UK should never have agreed?

John Galt,

A once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to vote for self-determination. Will the fear-mongerers have stirred up enough fears to scuttle the vote for independence?

Because considering the minuses as well as the plusses is not rational in your book?

Hoping for a no vote myself, but also reconciliation after the vote no matter what the result.

I'm completely lost on the Scotland/UK issue. If Scotland becomes and independent nation, what natural resources, national productivity would they be able to work off of to be a productive nation in a global market? And why does the UK want to keep pretty archaic imperial ideology that was put in place in the middle ages+ that some old king/queens military ventures into conquering more territory for the glory of the "kingdom" that pretty much holds no water in this modern era?

Guess, I'll just sit this one out and watch what happens.

"Because considering the minuses as well as the plusses is not rational in your book?"

Not at all. Independence from England is not exactly unheard of, is it?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v0t5wKp80uA/VBmuXQaDEaI/AAAAAAAASLo/aWE1XHGIVq8/s1600/iL1YeMW9PON0.jpg

HonestDictator: They have 84% of the oil reserves in the UK. I'd say that's a plus!

Elizabeth Heath wrote: "@Brainiac. If it's a close vote the losing side will be screaming it's a fix. It won't end tomorrow. This nastiness will go on for years, the damage is done."

Perhaps. Either way Britain will initially seek to villify and damage Scotland by all means possible. That is until the unpopularity of that policy internationally saturates Westminster consciousness. Thereafter the twinning of Scotland and England will become the nouveau public relations theme. Neither side can sustain a grudge without impaling itself. An homegrown international reconciliation makes much better sense than Max Devo.

@Elizabeth Heath

If it's a close vote the losing side will be screaming it's a fix. It won't end tomorrow. This nastiness will go on for years, the damage is done.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of.

John Galt,

"Because considering the minuses as well as the plusses is not rational in your book?"

"Not at all. Independence from England is not exactly unheard of, is it?"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-v0t5wKp80uA/VBmuXQaDEaI/AAAAAAAASLo/aWE1XHGIVq8/s1600/iL1YeMW9PON0.jpg

First of all, you didn't answer the question.

Secondly, that map does not show "Independence from England", it shows "Independence from the United Kingdom". Thus it really doesn't apply to the South of Ireland, of which it gets the formation date wrong - 1922, not 1916.

HonestDictator

If Scotland becomes and independent nation, what natural resources, national productivity would they be able to work off of to be a productive nation in a global market?

When Singapore separated from Malaysia back in 1965, the same question was asked. Singapore has no drinking water or any form of natural resources. In 2014, Singapore foreign reserve is many times higher than Malaysia and former colonial master Britain. Their economy is roaring as adult Lion. Per capita income is many times higher than both Malaysia and Britain.

If Singapore could do it, newly independent Scotland will make it too. If Scottish say yes to referendum, William Wallace who was the legend of Scotland revolution will smile from the heaven.

By the way, I am not a Scottish. However I am the fan of Brave heart movie who watched it 16 times.

Goodbye Texas, don't let the door hit you.

Funny you would cast a slighting remark at Texas independence on the back of Scotland's potential freedom. Texas is the only state in the Union that was once a country. The Texas embassy still exists in London and is a tourist attraction.

If this wave of freedom and independence will inspire others, maybe Okinawa can shake off it's mainland political parasites and become a free kingdom again.

I hope the people of Scotland wake up and realize only the politicians will benefit. Every story I read is a small group of parasite politicians are trying to convince the people to vote for independence. One thing history has proven over and over something politicians have to force on people or sell people on, is something the people should be against. If the people of Scotland really wanted independence, the people would not need to be convinced or forced. A vote for independence will result in only the political class of Scotland taking power and wealth for themselves at the expense of the people. I am not implying uk politicians are not Also parasites. What is happening is some Scottish political wannabes can't get power because others have it. So they will r e'er place uk politicians with themselves only in all of the confusion and complexity of independence, these Scottish politicians will scam even more money and power than the uk politicians are. Scotland is on a path to ruin simply because of the greed and arrogance of a few politicians. Good luck, it will be decades to recovery, if ever.

why does the UK want to keep pretty archaic imperial ideology that was put in place in the middle ages+ that some old king/queens military ventures into conquering more territory for the glory of the "kingdom" that pretty much holds no water in this modern era?

People assume that the union was the result of big bully England conquering and subduing poor little Scotland. Not so.

English attempts in the middle ages (13th-14th centuries) to take over Scotland by military force were unsuccessful (except that they provided material 600 years later for the highly-enjoyable but not necessarily totally accurate film Braveheart).

The two countries came to be ruled by the same monarch when the English Queen Elizabeth I died without progeny and her cousin James VI of Scotland was proclaimed James I of England. No 'military ventures into conquering more territory' there. James came to the Scottish throne at the age of 13 months and to the English throne at the age of 37, so it hardly seems right to call him 'some old king'.

The Acts of Union were passed in the English and Scottish parliaments in 1706 and 1707 respectively.

If Scotland becomes and independent nation, what natural resources, national productivity would they be able to work off of to be a productive nation in a global market?

In addition to the North Sea oil that has already been mentioned (some three-quarters of which have already been extracted), Scotland will for many years to come be able to rely on its plentiful haggis plantations; whisky lakes; fried Mars Bar mines; sporran farms; porridge bogs; shortbread deposits; scone orchards; and bagpipe ranches. Scotch mist however has already been exported all over the world, is easily produced and cannot be expected to bring in much in terms of revenue.

And what if Shetland wants a referendum on independence from Scotland in the event of a yes vote. They'd have enough oil money per capita to live like kings.

Federal governments are moneymakers.

If Scotland secedes, it will have its own federal government, on its own turf, and can keep all the proceeds in-country.

Maybe someday Edinburgh will be the chief city of Britain and London just a backwater.

Voting starts in one hour's time. It feels a bit like a football match. I support England against Scotland but I'd sure miss them if they leave. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scots. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kyns0nxsRcU

Suppose "Yes" loses. How many years til the next referendum?

I hope they don't vote yes and will be sorry to see them go if they do. The damage is done however, the other regions of the UK , particularly England, are now looking for greater powers of their own. The age of shared resources and looking out for each other looks to be over. The 2 million or so disaffected Scots that vote yes have lit a fire that will affect 65 million. Ironically in a few years time when they vote to join the EU they will be back to square one.

'The damage is done however, the other regions of the UK , particularly England, are now looking for greater powers of their own.'

Perish the thought. Countries wanting to be governed by the people they vote for. Ludicrous idea.

Nathaw,

By the way, I am not a Scottish. However I am the fan of Brave heart movie who watched it 16 times.

So you get your passion and facts from a Hollywood movie? Sheesh!

Jimizo,

Perish the thought. Countries wanting to be governed by the people they vote for. Ludicrous idea.

And what if Aberdeenshire, the Shetlands and the Orkneys find the people they vote for do not have supreme power in Edinburgh? Yup, one part of a country insisting that it should always have representation in the government of the day is ludicrous.

Straining to loosen ties with England but wary of going it alone.

Afaic the irony is that if Scotland gets independence from the UK, they will then turn around to join the EU.... thus replacing a democratic and functional union with an undemocratic, Kafaesque monstrosity run by unelected megalomanic Eurocrats in Brussels. What an exchange!

"what natural resources, national productivity would they be able to work off of to be a productive nation in a global market"

Good question. In addition to Cleo's list of riches, here are some other snippets: 8.4% of the UK population, 60% of the UK fishing catch (12 countries fish in Scotland's waters, and it represents a significant part of Spain's economy); about 90% of UK's surface water; about 25% of Scotland's generated electricity is exported; 50% of UK's wind turbines (resource or liability?); about 50% of UK woodland.

@some07791 No, there was a strong call for a referendum, so it's right one is being held. But both the Yes and No campaigns have been so poorly handled that they have allowed lies, anger and pure hate dictate the agenda.

The thing I object to is that the Scottish nationalists are not hardcore.

If they do gain independence they should make their own currency, have their own Scottish head of state, make Gaelic the national language, etc...

Yet none of this has been suggested by nationalists during the campaign.

Instead, they want to keep the pound, keep the queen and keep speaking English.

Come on Scots... get rid of this wishy-washy nationalism and take it all the way...

60% of the UK fishing catch

That's going to be a serious problem for England's only decent food, fish & chips. After that, the only thing left will be Indian food and pizza.

@DaDude,

There may be a tripe and onions revival. My mother would have liked to see that.

That's going to be a serious problem for England's only decent food, fish & chips. After that, the only thing left will be Indian food and pizza.

Don't forget toad-in-the-hole and spotted dick.

My wife would be furious if I didn't mention shepherd's pie.

"The anarchist position is that there should be no violent, involuntary, centralized power. Because of that, anarchists look positively upon any region which decentralizes its power as is the potential case in Scotland. The goal is to eventually see every state in each country become sovereign, then every city... and eventually 7 billion sovereign "governments" on Earth. The anti-thesis of this is what The Powers That Be (TPTB) are pushing, one giant government that governs the entire world.

If Scotland does secede from the UK... and we always say here, "If at first you don't secede, try try again", it does not necessarily mean that Scotland will be all that much freer than it was before if it chooses to remain within an even bigger and more centralized power, the European Union. If Scotland does secede from both the UK and the EU, however, then it will be a sovereign country. And that would be better than what it is today and we would heartily support it."

Berwick.

Whether the final vote is Yes or No exposes the fact that a very large number of Scotsmen reject Westminster and that further autonomy is inevitable. The power of Britain is waning. Independence is thick in the air, not only in Scotland, but also in Catalonia, Venice, Flanders, and probably others. Decentralization is the future.

Politicians are the worst kind.

If Alex Salmond loses his campaign to become prime minister of Scotland tomorrow morning, will he resign as First Minister for Scotland? Useless Cameron, who has been outsmarted by the SNP throughout Salmond's personal campaign, has his fate sealed. If he loses, he's finished. If he wins by small margin, he will forever be the man who risked the union with such complacency. Politicians cannot help being unpleasant to look at (look at Japan!) But can they not at least make an effort to look healthy? Gordon Brown and Salmond both look as if they are seconds away from an imminent heart attack. As if they are going to explode. Should not these Scots be setting an example to a country in which the most populous city has the lowest life expectancy in Europe? Sheesh, come on folks!

Independence is thick in the air, not only in Scotland, but also in Catalonia, Venice, Flanders, and probably others. Decentralization is the future.

I'm sure the Russians or Chinese will find those quaint notions very helpful when they send in the tanks.

I'd rather have sprawling multicultural "empires" than the devastation that was wrought by romantic nationalism in the 20th century.

John Galt,

" Independence is thick in the air, not only in Scotland, but also in..."

I agree, but it isn't just independence from a larger parent state that is driving this. While there are many reasons Scots may be voting Yes, I think most of us feel a strong warmth to England, to places such as Newcastle or Liverpool and even the southerly Brixton. There is a view that forces greater than ourselves dictate how much we earn, how much we pay for electricity, where we cross the road, what food we should enjoy, etc.

Robert Burns wrote, "Bought and sold for English gold, what a parcel of rogues in a nation". The rogues were the sellers and Scotland's own.

We've had lots of calls today from friends and family in Japan. They seem to suddenly know more about Scotland than me. Maybe their revenge for me boring them with interesting facts about Japan.

It's not every day you get to vote to create a nation state. Apologies if I seem a little tired and emotional. I fear the result may be a tad depressing. Why change, after all? (But fingers crossed.)

I don't really mind which way the angry ginger stepchildren vote. As long as they shut up whining.

I voted NO today

The vast majority of the YES voters are unwashed, semi literate, football hooligans whose idea of democratic debate is to break the windows of anyone daring to display a NO sticker.

Well they voted No. Good. Now the nation has to pick up the pieces of a very divisive campaign.