McCain, Obama get tough, personal in final debate

Thursday 16th October, 12:35 PM JST

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coulrophobic at 03:16 PM JST - 17th October

Where did I mention party affiliations?

Here:

The War President claimed the rich and elite as his 'base'.

Unless you are now saying 90 percent of the country fits the description of 'rich and elite'.
dennis0bauer at 03:25 PM JST - 17th October

The rich and elite are democrats, republicans and others. it means exactly what it says don't read your own views in it.
cleo at 03:27 PM JST - 17th October

Baldie -

I'm not interested in the whys and wherefores; if the majority of Americans are happy to have the country in a virtually permanent state of war, for whatever reason, that's their choice; but they need to be prepared to foot the bill for their actions. Whether Iraq is costing more or less than other wars is also quite beside the point; If I have an empty wallet today then I cannot afford even a cheap meal, regardless of whether I was eating gourmet yesterday (or perhaps because I was eating gourmet yesterday....)

If the US is not broke, please pay for your own wars (by raising taxes from the people who supported the war) instead of asking other countries (whose people did not support the war) to pay for you while your own people get a free ride in the form of tax cuts.

I do understand all the stuff about tax cuts helping the economy/tax hikes hurting the economy; perhaps if people hurt a little bit they'll be less ready to support politicians who are eager to drop bombs, and we'll all be better off (in many ways) in the long run.
cleo at 03:46 PM JST - 17th October

coulrophobic -

Sorry if I confused you.

Two separate arguments: 1) 'It's wrong to tax the rich, it's wrong to punish people for being successful' and 2) 'There should be tax cuts for the lower-paid'.

1) I see nothing wrong with taxing the rich at a higher rate than the not-rich; as I explained above, an across-the-board tax rate is not equitable, but places a disproportionate burden on the less well-paid. In America's case, Bushie claims the rich as his own, so it's only fair to ask them to pay a fair share in bailing out his failed policies.

2) If a country's economy is doing well and there's money to spare, then passing on that wealth to the man in the street in the form of tax goods is a good thing. But when the economy is not doing well - the country is at war (on two fronts) and the economy is being compared to the Great Depression - then demanding/promising tax cuts seems sheer folly. Especially when some posters are happy to remind us, when it suits their argument, that even poor people in America have a higher standard of living, in terms of number of cars/TV sets/etc than the supposedly comfortable middle classes of other nations.

If people, rich and poor, find they have to pay for the wars they start, maybe there'll be fewer wars started, at least by the so-called democracies.
YangYong at 07:10 PM JST - 17th October

Having recorded and edited the debate down to McCain's silences / grimace / eye bulges and huffs I now have a good opportunity to teach children a little about "Stranger Danger".
SezWho2 at 10:51 PM JST - 17th October

tigermoth,

Thank you for your response. It seems that there was some confusion about the "$5K hit", but it now seems to be cleared up, so let me address a couple of your other points.

You seem to me to put down an individual's success entirely to that individual's own efforts. I don't think that is true. I think individual effort is very important. However, so is luck--being in the right place at the right time with the right offering. So is social approval of your product. (No matter how hard they worked, the dealers just couldn't get those Edsel dealerships off the ground.) We are all connected. And if we can dare to make the judgment that the executive of a failing financial organization should forgo the contractual compensation for which he worked, I'm not sure why we should scruple at asking any high-income person to pay more.

As to who we are benefiting in increasing the taxation on lower income people, I don't think there is any doubt that your wife has seen some things that make her doubt the system. But that system's have been put in place for all who meet the criteria of those programs. Yes, there is fraud, theft and misuse of funds. I'm certainly in favor of cleaning that up. Is anyone not in favor of it? But look at the other end of the spectrum--the banks, the insurance companies, those on which Obama's tax increases will most impact. There's fraud, theft and misuse of funds. Unless you have reason to believe one is worse than another, that doesn't seem to be a good reason not to tax or not to design benefit programs.

Finally, if you want to think of taxes in terms of punishment, I guess that's OK, but to me it's a very strange way of looking at it. There is no upper limit on the amount of wealth that a person can accumulate. Punishment would be taking money away from people--taxing someone more than a dollar for every dollar earned. Taxing someone ninety cents on the dollar might remove the incentive for someone to increase his pre-tax income from $1,000,000 to $1,000,001. But looked at another way, how much marginal effort would be required to effect that increase?
coulrophobic at 11:52 AM JST - 18th October

"While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six."
Yuukorin at 11:55 AM JST - 18th October

"While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six."

Why that's more expensive and potentially damaging to health than an ongoing war of liberation in Iraq isn't it?

They can have their lobsters and I'll toast them to less death on a global scale and paranoia in your backard.
labrat at 06:49 PM JST - 18th October

"While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six."

I guess the wife of a presidential candidate can't have a nice dinner now. They all eat caviar, drink champagne, and fly on private jets. They are politicians, they don't dine at Denny's. What were you thinking?
Simon_Foston at 08:17 PM JST - 18th October

"While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six."

I can't imagine her getting through all that by herself. But if it was her own money, who cares? Anyway, what do you think Cindy McCain orders up from room service? Cheese on toast?
Nessie at 08:29 AM JST - 19th October

"While he was at a meeting at the Waldorf-Astoria at 4 p.m. Wednesday, Michelle Obama called room service and ordered lobster hors d'oeuvres, two whole steamed lobsters, Iranian caviar and champagne, a tipster told Page Six."

When you have one house and one car instead of more homes and cars than you can count, you tend to have cash left over for room service.

And I like the "Iranian" detail here. Those Obama's are so thick with the I-rainyuns they eat I-rainyun caviar!
coulrophobic at 01:36 PM JST - 19th October

Obama reviewed one of William Ayers' books way back in 1997.

He lied in that debate.

http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=64

More proof that Obama worked closely with William Ayers the failed domestic terrorist and that he lied and continues to lie about his association with an unrepentant marxist nutjob.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/971106/justice.shtml
coulrophobic at 02:36 PM JST - 21st October

McCain should have released this, and should have done it weeks ago.

Devastating.

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=TfF15cUc9AM
Lieutenant at 03:35 PM JST - 21st October

Cmon, people, get a life. Please please please...

No deal.

President Obama to win on November 4, 2008, and every day after that.
SezWho2 at 06:47 AM JST - 22nd October

coulrophobic,

For once we agree. McCain should have released that weeks ago.

Devastatingly ridiculous and patently false.