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Texas boy, 7, shoots 8-year-old cousin

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It's a felony in the states to leave a loaded weapon where a child can have access to it.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I watched today on RT, about how there is book for children of how guns are needed, and also, watched videos where small kids are learning to use guns, and also , they put the number of 3 000 kids every year get killed in US from the fire arms , and that three times more kids , than adults got killed in Japan in same time ( I think last year it was even below 1000 people killed ) . I wonder, those advocates for guns, do they see Japan , where crime rate is low, and murder rate also, and also has no guns ?Japan -no guns , low crime , US, -guns, big crime rate .

0 ( +5 / -5 )

Ah Texas, ah America. You are so lost these days.

7 ( +11 / -4 )

It will probably deal with the problem by offering gun safety classes to first graders or something.

Honestly this would probably be an improvement. Considering that guns are so prevalent here (in the US in general and especially Texas), some people are always going to be despicably irresponsible with them, and kids are liable to encounter them at someone else's house even if said kid's parents don't own them or are conscientious about keeping them inaccessible in their own home, I don't think it's a bad idea to teach even really young kids basic gun safety, like "never point them at people" and "treat all guns as if they are loaded" and "if you or your friends find a gun lying around, don't touch it and tell an adult right away." I definitely knew all that stuff by the time I was in first grade, in addition to things like, "never walk in front of someone holding/aiming a gun" and "don't wander around in the woods during deer season."

2 ( +3 / -1 )

"Many children can get a gun quicker than they can get a book out of the library." (Marian Wright Edelman, president of the Children's Defense Fund.)

8 ( +9 / -1 )

Texas City police say an 8-year-old boy is in critical condition after being shot in the face by his 7-year-old cousin.

But take comfort in the fact that the NRA says it is not guns that kill people, it is people who kill people. This is a perfect example of why, when our kids were growing up, my ex and I refused to allow our kids to go play in any household that had guns. Mistakes/accidents do happen. Pray for his recovery and for his mom as well.

3 ( +7 / -4 )

It's a felony in the states to leave a loaded weapon where a child can have access to it.

A testimonial for a Keystone rifle:

“Thank you for supporting the next generation of recreational shooters. My four-year-old daughter thought the “pink one” was far superior to a black synthetic stock, Who am i to argue? I never would have thought that a pink rifle would be sitting in the rack.”

0 ( +1 / -1 )

time after time and america still doesn't wake up about gun laws. How dumb do they have to be?

2 ( +4 / -2 )

I don't think it's a bad idea to teach even really young kids basic gun safety, like "never point them at people" and "treat all guns as if they are loaded" and "if you or your friends find a gun lying around, don't touch it and tell an adult right away."

Jennifer -- all great advice. But what it means is that kids don't have the "freedom" to grow up without this kind of worry, so some folks can protect their "freedom" to trample on other's rights. I live in a western state in the U.S. that has among the highest rate of gun ownership, and the most "liberal" carry laws, and I am tired of having to worry about whether every time I go out to the movies or a restaurant, some guy is going to lose it, like the guy in Florida did, and endanger my safety.

2 ( +4 / -2 )

Hey, the same thing could have happened if the kid had come across a kitchen knife, a packet of frozen peas or a teddy bear. When a person is determined to kill, they're going to kill and no gun control laws (or nanny-state notions about not leaving a loaded gun lying around) are going to stop them.

It ain't guns that kill people, it's people that kill people. This 7-year-old is obviously a wrong'un and needs to be tried as an adult.

I tried looking at it from the traditional pro-gun pov often spouted here on JT. ...Nah, doesn't work. Children. With access to loaded guns. This is dumber than dumb.

I hope the 8yo recovers with his face in not too much of a mess, and that he and his cousin and both sets of parents become avid and active supporters of sensible gun control law. Splash the boy's face all over the national news. Let the people of America see what happens when the right to 'self-defence' and to kill wild furry animals at will trumps common sense.

2 ( +5 / -3 )

so, by NRA standards, if the other boy had a gun he could've protected himself .

8 ( +11 / -3 )

Capt. Joe Stanton said the boys were playing unsupervised at a Texas City apartment Thursday when the 7-year-old found a handgun and it discharged.

They just don't go boom by themselves.

Children. With access to loaded guns. This is dumber than dumb.

Agreed. But, if a child is knowledgable about guns he or she knows its not a toy.

The boyfriend is at guilt here. And if was his gun.....he will do jailtime.

-4 ( +2 / -6 )

But what it means is that kids don't have the "freedom" to grow up without this kind of worry, so some folks can protect their "freedom" to trample on other's rights. I live in a western state in the U.S. that has among the highest rate of gun ownership, and the most "liberal" carry laws, and I am tired of having to worry about whether every time I go out to the movies or a restaurant, some guy is going to lose it, like the guy in Florida did, and endanger my safety.

I definitely get where you're coming from. Obviously I'd prefer that kids never have to worry about this sort of thing. But even if my state (Texas) or yours instituted stringent gun control laws tomorrow (basically a political impossibility, in my view), actually getting guns largely or entirely out of homes and off the streets in any kind of reasonable timespan (like, before your kids are grown) seems like a total pipe dream. IDK about your location, but here, most families have anywhere from several to a couple dozen guns of various types, many inherited and unregistered/no record of purchase, and a fair amount of ammo lying around, so even if we stopped manufacturing guns tomorrow, it still wouldn't happen. I'm not saying it doesn't make sense to try to improve things, but I think the unfortunate reality is that kids do have to worry about this kind of thing, and trying to shield them from it entirely in areas where gun ownership is prevalent actually makes things more dangerous. I mean, I wish that people wouldn't drive like fools or be pedophiles, either, but I'd still teach my kids to look both ways before crossing the street and not to get in strangers' cars, you know? In a lot of ways, I feel like it was safer for me as a seven year old to regularly handle guns and be around them all the time than for a kid who knows nothing about guns to encounter just one unsecured gun that slips under someone's radar. I'm not saying the way I was raised was ideal, but I also can't envision (in my lifetime) a world in which a kid here in Texas or most places in the US can confidently expect to never encounter a single unsecured gun, so I do favor gun safety education starting very early, the same way we teach fire safety or traffic safety, etc. Everything I'm saying here is for accidental shootings--deliberate mass public shootings are a different story which obviously gun safety does nothing to solve.

2 ( +2 / -0 )

I also can't envision (in my lifetime) a world in which a kid here in Texas or most places in the US can confidently expect to never encounter a single unsecured gun

Sounds to me like a very good reason to move out of America if you have kids. The world's a big place: find somewhere safe for your kids to grow. Or at least safer. Where people don't have weird ideas about kids needing to learn how to handle guns. And where Santa doesn't bring pink rifles for good little pre-schoolers.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Cleo, you show much concern for children. Do you advocate a car-less society? No bicycles? No lakes, ponds, rivers or pools? Each take way more child lives than guns in the USA.

Jennifer above make very good points. The lack of education is dangerous in life and that pertains to guns. If you own guns and have children you have a responsibility. If you do not own guns and have kids they may find something at a friends house. Catch 22. Complete eradication is not possible Cleo. Just as irresponsible drug use its something we need to live with.

Safe storage education would help accidental shootings. The Chicago crap will continue. It became a culture there. The presidents backyard literally. Now he wants to protect the Central American children. I think it begins at home.

-3 ( +2 / -5 )

Statistics are fascinating. U.S (2012): All poisoning deaths Number of deaths: 46,047 Deaths per 100,000 population: 14.8 Motor vehicle traffic deaths Number of deaths: 33,783 Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.8 All firearm deaths Number of deaths: 32,351 Deaths per 100,000 population: 10.4 Intentional Self-Harm (Suicide) 38,364 Cannabis (Marijuana) 0 Alcohol-Induced Deaths 25,692 Homicide 16,259 Pharmaceutical Drugs 22,134

0 ( +0 / -0 )

you show much concern for children

It is a thread about a child getting shot. Would you rather I show concern for the poor widdle owner of the gun who is now going to be (hopefully) prosecuted to the full extent of the law for leaving a loaded gun lying around?

Each take way more child lives than guns in the USA.

So that makes it OK for kids to have the wherewithal to blow each others' faces off?

Other countries have a much higher ratio of traffic/swimming accidents to gun accidents. Not because the traffic or swimming pools in those countries aren't properly managed, but because the society isn't riddled with guns.

n number of accidental deaths from traffic plus n number of accidental deaths from guns = 2n deaths.

n number of accidental deaths from traffic plus 0 number of accidental deaths from guns = ?

It isn't rocket science.

3 ( +5 / -2 )

@MarkGAUG. 09, 2014 - 09:47AM JST

The lack of education is dangerous in life and that pertains to guns.

You hit a nail on the head.

1 ( +2 / -1 )

Well Cleo, I am happy living in the USA with all those guns riddled around here and there. I think too much Hollywood helps you to believe we are still in the wild west days. Shootouts daily in all those towns you know.

he last time I heard a gunshot in any city was....NEVER. Of course I choose not to live in impoverished areas which are the war zones.

And to be honest a world w/o guns would be nice. Realistic, no. In USA just as the rest of the world the bad guys have guns. Yes, Japan, Australia, the UK and the rest of Europe. Keep dreaming!

-7 ( +3 / -9 )

You reap what you sow in a society that glamorizes guns. From video games to movies to t.v, guns, guns, and more guns. And then people are 'shocked' at these incidents of senseless violence. Kind of like the controversy over the movie poster for "Sin City 2." Eva Green's dress was deemed too 'racy' and was banned in certain places. Yet, not one word or outrage over the gun she was holding.

1 ( +3 / -2 )

I lived in south africa for years where all you need is 2 letters by friends saying you are a cool bloke and a 2 week waiting time for your CCR.

Gunshots were common at night and we discussed the calibres used and went back to sleep.

Compare that with my home-country where every male over 18 has served, not easy to get a carry licence outside the home and it is an open carry. Calibres and guns are controlled easy to get a licence for home/protection though.

Back home we got few gun crimes and also low physical fights as your opponent is as least as much trained as yourself in H2H and combat arms.

IMHO, you should be properly trained and have real life experiences before given a public carry licence.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Thats Hollywood for ya! The most hypocritical industry ever assembled.

2 ( +3 / -1 )

Sounds to me like a very good reason to move out of America if you have kids. The world's a big place: find somewhere safe for your kids to grow. Or at least safer. Where people don't have weird ideas about kids needing to learn how to handle guns.

I mean, okay, that may be an option for individual parents, but I don't think the US is going to be, like, completely free of children anytime soon, either, so I don't see how this is an argument against teaching basic gun safety to the kids who do live here.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

I grew up in US with cap guns, playing war, cowboys and indians, dart guns, blank guns, bb guns, and the friends I played with grew up to be regular people. I didn't grow up with the uber violence on TV and movies. No over protectionism. No fear of the neighbor...

A movement to hide all guns and anything resembling them seems to be failing as we read from time to time. More kids were injured with bikes in my time. Those things are dangerous. Two wheeled rolling caskets! Though I still ride bikes.

-1 ( +1 / -1 )

I hear a lot of people calling for the ban of guns when a child has an accident, but never, EVER hear of the demand and call for banning alcohol when there are drunk driving fatalities, alcohol-related violent deaths, and the fact that 70+% of all criminals get their start with alcohol. And on the same day in Texas that this little boy was shot, how many others' lives were saved in Texas because someone was armed? How many people in the USA were saved by someone being prescient of mind enough to have a firearm in their belongings and/or on their person? And how about Japan? Are we forgetting that two men on two separate occasions used knives to kill people in two of the worst massacres of recent times in Japan (the first time being an attack on an elementary school, where eight children were brutally murdered [where is and where was the demand and call for banning knives when that happened])? Hypocrite we much, gun-bashers and firearm-haters? Evil will always find a way, the weapon being irrelevant...

And to Cleo, I'll echo MarkG's sentiments: born and raised in the USA and have been back from Japan, now, for four years, and the only time I've heard a gunshot was when I went with relatives to a shooting range. Also, I was taught by my Dad and Granddad around the age of four or five to know what a real gun is, what it feels and looks like, and what to do if I ever saw one lying out in view (my brother and relatives also). The result? Never once was there any kind of gun accident, nor has there been since, in the almost-43 years of my life, due to someone picking up a gun that was left in view and toying around with it. America is hardly the crime-ridden place you make it out to be, and that includes Texas.

When we start hearing of how more Americans are saving lives and derailing victimhood by being armed, I'll start believing that there is truly balance in the news.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

I don't want to go into personal experiences as I seen guns used properly and less so.

One hard case was a 10yr old taking 2 .45 hollow points in the back for ripping of an ear-ring from a lady.

Also looked down the barrel of .38 that was pulled on me.

Life changes and outlook on guns does too.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Sad story & we will be reading similar again & again from the US unfortunately!

I remember in my Uni days the rugby team took a bus down from Cda to New Orleans & I joined along( to hell with a few mid terms!).........

Anyway the team gets to stay at an alumni's house from the team hosting the Mardi Gras rugby tourney, so he just says he will leave the doors open & we have the run of the place for 4days.

Well 15min later one guy opens a drawer looking for a bottle opener & finds a loaded hand gun, everyone has a gander at the thing than we called the alumni guy to come & take it, so he does, jumps in his car & offers to drive a couple guys to buy beer for us, tossing the gun to the guy in the passenger seat & tells him to put the gun in the glove compartment, guy opens the glove compartment & out rolls ANOTHER hand gun & the guy says yeah just toss it in with the other one & speeds off!!

WTF.........had a great time down there but SO glad I didn't grow up in a country with so many guns & I grew up with rifles so I know what guns are, but all the hand guns.............. too stupid & DANGEROUS!

1 ( +1 / -0 )

@Jason LovelaceAUG. 09, 2014 - 11:19AM JST

I hear a lot of people calling for the ban of guns when a child has an accident, but never, EVER hear of the demand and call for banning alcohol when there are drunk driving fatalities, alcohol-related violent deaths, and the fact that 70+% of all criminals get their start with alcohol.

Alcohol was invented for pleasure and relaxing. Cars were designed as improved and much more mobile transport by comparison to horses or trains. Only guns were inveted to kill. Can you understand a difference?

@Jason LovelaceAUG. 09, 2014 - 11:19AM JST

And on the same day in Texas that this little boy was shot, how many others' lives were saved in Texas because someone was armed?

Nothing, except an assumption. Without any ties to real life.

1 ( +3 / -3 )

GW, that Alumni was reckless with his guns. Reckless owners are the accidental shootings number one cause. I do have a problem with some people treating guns like toys. They are a big problem.

The other problem is the war-zone neighborhoods. An absolute lack of respect for life with those shooter guys.

As for experience, I looked down the barrel of a .45 in high school. An idiot friend thought it was funny. The gun was empty he said, and it was. Problem is all to many idiots think the gun is empty until! Handle a gun the way they are designed to be. Loaded or not. "Never point at anything you don't want to shoot"! Quite simple, not dangerous at all.

-3 ( +0 / -3 )

'Hypocrite we much, gun-bashers and firearm-haters?'

I think all decent people should hate and bash guns. I'm very suspicious of those who don't hate guns or at least see them as a necessary evil. I lived in Texas for a while, and the love of guns I saw from many is a sickness which needs therapy. Love of guns is a vice like alcohol abuse, drugs and gambling and when more people see it this way we may make progress.

-1 ( +2 / -3 )

The lack of education is dangerous in life and that pertains to guns.

MarkG -- nonsense. That implies that a parent who does not educate their children about a lethal weapon is negligent, and not the jacka&& who deliberately took the risk of endangering kids' lives by owning it in the first place.

Well Cleo, I am happy living in the USA with all those guns riddled around here and there.

And I live in the U.S. too, and I think its disgusting that a minority -- estimated at 30% of households -- that own guns are dictating the way the majority have to live their lives, and that an even smaller minority -- about 4 million people -- who are members of the NRA, can hold our Congress hotsage when the majority of Americans -- nearly 60% -- favor stricter gun laws.

0 ( +3 / -3 )

Two incidents with guns come to mind growing up in the US:

I went to my neighbor's home to play at around 9 years of age. We were in the basement near the laundry room. Her bedroom was there. (1970's). Her very adult brother (out of the military) was home and pulled out a pistol and held it at her because she did not clean her room..... daytime, we were playing! He threatened to shoot her and I was standing right next to her! No tears, just a real sense of danger and the necessity to get that room cleaned!! Forward about 20 years later, and he has married, had kids, divorces, returns to the same home and shoots himself in the head and dies.

I was in high school in the same suburb. Was at a restaurant with my classmates and told to go into the kitchen to take cover. (1980's). A man was outside shouting about his misery, loss of a job, divorce perhaps and had loaded rifles aimed at our restaurant.

Both incidents left a deep impression on me. Both incidents are treated with a shrug of the shoulders and a non-chalant attitude. Part of my memories. All too common to some, unbelievable to others. Never seen a weapon in Japan. Oh, someone threw peanuts at me on the train once, met any number of exhibitionists and even some sexual harrassment. Have to watch out for a few people with knives now and then but no guns in the home of my kids' play mates. Life can be lived without them. It is possible.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Jerseyboy, do you duck and hide when you hear all those guns fired all day long. If your not NOBODY is dictating to you how to live your life. It was the Second Amendment in the US Constitution allowing citizens to own guns. If you want to change that thats a whole other story.

I favor stricter gun laws. This "boyfriend" if he indeed owns this gun needs jail time. Extremely irresponsible of him. Maybe the mother, same goes for her. If she left it laying around, jail time. The 7yo boy did nothing wrong. He was playing. Unfortunately it was no toy!

0 ( +0 / -0 )

Good old U-S-A and the right to bear arms. Obviously these kids NEEDED the gun for SELF DEFENSE!! If the eight year old had been armed obviously this would not have happened! Where's the NRA?? Why aren't they introducing a "guns for tots" programs and future programs on how to have guns in the womb to get them ready for real life?

0 ( +1 / -1 )

First off, this is clearly a bad home situation with irresponsible parents who left the children unattended, a gun where the children could get it and generally these parents should never have been allowed children and should DEFINITELY never have been allowed a gun or anywhere near a gun.

If anything this underscores the need for SOME sort of barrier to gun ownership, because at present you have irresponsible idiots like these parents getting them, and that's just daft.

Jennifer RichardsonAug. 09, 2014 - 08:12AM JST Honestly this would probably be an improvement. Considering that guns are so prevalent here (in the US in general and especially Texas), some people are always going to be despicably irresponsible with them, and kids are liable to encounter them at someone else's house even if said kid's parents don't own them or are conscientious about keeping them inaccessible in their own home, I don't think it's a bad idea to teach even really young kids basic gun safety, like "never point them at people" and "treat all guns as if they are loaded" and "if you or your friends find a gun lying around, don't touch it and tell an adult right away." I definitely knew all that stuff by the time I was in first grade, in addition to things like, "never walk in front of someone holding/aiming a gun" and "don't wander around in the woods during deer season."

I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti-idiot. My grandfather kept a pair of shotguns in the garage for shooting rabbits and other farm pests. I saw them every day, and I had zero interest in picking them up.

Why? Because my grandfather and father took me shooting quite early (around 6 or so) and I got taught the basic safety rules (don't load it until you need it, don't point it at any living thing unless you intend to kill it, don't take a shot unless you're sure you'll hit and kill - the hunter's ultimate responsibility is a humane kill, etc.), and I got to fire it... and after my shoulder stopped hurting I realised that guns were loud, kicked like a mule and were actually not as fun as they looked. The point was driven home when we got back and I had to spend 30 minutes cleaning, polishing and oiling the shotgun before putting it away, updating the ammo count, checking the spare shells for mildew or damage, and generally doing the dozens of little tasks that amount to responsible gun ownership.

And this is the difference between a class where kids get told stuff and responsible parenting where you experience stuff and find out that guns are really a huge pain in the posterior. You can tell kids that the fire is hot until you're blue in the face and they'll STILL touch it someday. Or you can let them touch a candle flame and see how much it hurts (without any real harm) and they'll remember for life.

Classes won't cut it, and a teacher can't safely instruct dozens of kids in gun safety. This is something that parents who own guns should be doing together with their kids, possibly overseen by an instructor at their shooting range. It doesn't belong at school.

1 ( +1 / -0 )

And this is the difference between a class where kids get told stuff and responsible parenting where you experience stuff and find out that guns are really a huge pain in the posterior. You can tell kids that the fire is hot until you're blue in the face and they'll STILL touch it someday. Or you can let them touch a candle flame and see how much it hurts (without any real harm) and they'll remember for life.

For sure. Although actually I had the opposite reaction from you; I didn't think guns were a pain at all. I started shooting at five, got my first deer at six, fell in love with hunting (okay, with the delicious homemade sausage my dad made from my deer) and still get most of my meat that way. But still, I quickly got over any idea that guns were glamorous or anything like that. I knew exactly what to do and what not to do with them and had zero interested in "playing" with them or showing them off to my friends or anything like that.

Classes won't cut it, and a teacher can't safely instruct dozens of kids in gun safety.

I wasn't thinking of actual hands-on gun safety classes (I definitely don't think that belongs in school, and seems likely to end in total disaster), just a sort of general "this is what you should do if you or your friends encounter an unattended gun or if you see someone improperly handling a gun" lecture. I mean, do I think it will solve all problems? No. It will probably be about as effective as those "why drugs and smoking are bad" skits and "make a family emergency plan in case of fire" seminars we used to have to go to in the gym, but I actually do think that having things like, "never point a gun at anyone or anything you don't want to kill" and "never assume that a gun isn't loaded" drummed into your head every year at those obligatory meetings might be marginally effective, especially since it's clear that a lot of parents are irresponsible jerks who will never even mention these very basic things. Although, I was also the kind of kid who actually did go home and make an emergency evacuation plan after the seminar, so maybe even my dimly positive expectations are exaggerated. I will say though that I've seen kids change their behavior after I've explained things to them--like, neighbors' kids whose idiotic parents were letting them "shoot" at their siblings (and me) with a .22 because "it's fine, it isn't loaded."

This is something that parents who own guns should be doing together with their kids, possibly overseen by an instructor at their shooting range. It doesn't belong at school.

Agreed. My suggestion was more to fill the gap for kids whose parents are 1) either incredibly irresponsible gun owners 2) non gun-owners whose kids might still encounter guns owned by group 1. And again, not at all thinking of actual hands-on handling of guns in school.

0 ( +1 / -1 )

Oh look, another story about a "responsible" gun owner whose child got access to their handgun and shot at another child they were "playing" with. Ghyuk, more 'murican common sense again. Hope the gun owner gets penalized to the fullest extent of the law. The really ignorant ones responsible for these situations get to deal with their consequences which unfortunately results in the loss of one if not both of their children.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

Where's the NRA??

I don't know much about this subject, but shouldn't it be the lawmakers who are allowed to accept money from interest groups that you should be accusing?

1 ( +2 / -1 )

@tinawatanabe

The lawmakers are definitely a problem, but the NRA (leadership, not necessarily membership) are sort of evil and crazy and greedy (and I say this as someone who is relatively pro-gun, in that I own them and use them regularly and do not hate guns qua guns).

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Jennifer, It is the lawmakers that make a law that makes gun control, not NRA. I don't understand why NRA has to be accused of for being evil and crazy and greedy.

0 ( +2 / -2 )

It's a felony in the states to leave a loaded weapon where a child can have access to it.

Elsewhere its managed by commom sense.

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@ tinawatanabe

Well, I think that people who lobby for horrible things are horrible, regardless of whether they make the laws or not. For instance, the Westboro Baptist Church (the "God hates f@gs" people) are despicable, despite the fact that they don't actually draft the legislation that determines the rights (or lack thereof) of GLBTQ people. I hate neo-Nazis whether or not they have any legislative influence whatsoever. The NRA lobbies for things like restoring gun rights to serial abusers and murders, out of some combination of rabid ideology and cynical financial self-interest, therefore they fall somewhere on the evil/crazy/greedy spectrum, to my way of thinking. Luckily for me, I have enough bitter political resentment to cover both corrupt legislators and awful lobbyists.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

This is the natural outcome of a guns everywhere policy created by the NRA, in order to sell more guns of course, and then a rubber stamp republican congress who cannot do enough to help kids get killed like in this example.

Fact is guns in the home is a major cause of death in homes. You have guns in the home your kids are at greater risk for being shot. Doctors know this but in Texas they are prevented by the NRA and Rick Perry to tell parents this truth. It is amazing. How republicans sleep at night knowing that their gun fetish is killing kids everyday in the USA. It is a sickness. A terrible sickness.

-1 ( +1 / -2 )

Texas is ranked last or pretty close to it in literacy, so even if they got that book, well, you know, there's always the movies.

To be fair, we have a very large immigrant population, many of whom do not speak English well (or at all), so our literacy stats are skewed. (Not that we don't have massive problems in this area even aside from the ESL issue, because we absolutely do.)

1 ( +1 / -0 )

Jennifer RichardsonAug. 09, 2014 - 02:03PM JST Agreed. My suggestion was more to fill the gap for kids whose parents are 1) either incredibly irresponsible gun owners 2) non gun-owners whose kids might still encounter guns owned by group 1. And again, not at all thinking of actual hands-on handling of guns in school.

And this is where you and I part ways.

Kids who's parents are irresponsible gun owners will copy their parents' irresponsible behaviour. A 1 hour (or even 10 or 20 hour) class at school won't do a blind blessed thing to stop them copying the behaviour they see every day at home. The solution here is to take the guns OUT of the hands of irresponsible gun owners, not waste time at school trying lame band-aid solutions.

For group 2, those kids without guns in their houses, it is probably because their parents don't like guns. Forcing them to learn about guns at school and sending the message that guns are acceptable is against the parents' wishes, and the school and state have NO right to interfere there.

0 ( +0 / -0 )

The solution here is to take the guns OUT of the hands of irresponsible gun owners, not waste time at school trying lame band-aid solutions.

Well, yeah, except by the time they've proven they're irresponsible, someone's likely to have already died. Plus, it's the same problem I addressed before--enforcement. I mean, say I was an irresponsible jerk and left one of my handguns laying around when my little cousins came and one of them shot the other. Say that the court decided I never got to buy another gun, ever. Say even that they declared all my current guns should be confiscated (I'm not even sure if that's a legal possibility, but say it was).

The fraction of guns that I own that I bought myself, that there is even any record of me owning, is maybe one in twelve, and there's no registration in Texas at all. Most of my guns are inherited, or were given as gifts or traded between friends. Even if they sent officers to, like, search my house or something (again, seems unlikely), I could put my guns in a box and stick it in at a friend's house or in the pasture or whatever and no one would know I had them. And this is completely disregarding people who acquire guns through criminal means. Maybe if another kid died because of my negligence, they'd throw me in prison? Then when I got out, I could go pick up my guns from whoever was storing them.

I'm not arguing against gun control; I'm not even saying this idea is not a "lame band aid"--I think it is, actually. But again, I think there's going to be a huge gap between the passing of stricter gun control legislation (if it ever gets passed) and a meaningful decrease in the amount of circulating guns and irresponsible (or downright criminal) gun owners out there. And obviously there are a lot of kids out there in the meantime who are encountering guns and view them as toys. Public school is where we have the most access to malleable little child minds all gathered in one place for convenient brainwashing purposes, so why not at least try? We have time for hour-long pep rallies before football games and abstinence-only pledge seminars...

And you say that there's no way that kids won't just follow their parents footsteps, but I don't necessarily think that's true. Lots (basically all) my classmates had parents who smoked, but after a lifetime of lame skits in the gym and commercials featuring blackened lungs and health class lectures, many fewer of my peers smoke than their parents. I know that stuff had an impact on me; both of my parents are smokers, and I never touched one, because all that stuff creeped me out. Wouldn't an hour or two a year and however much some PSA commercials on TV cost be worth it, even if it had a minimal impact? I'm mean, the "impact" we're talking about is kids not dying.

Forcing them to learn about guns at school and sending the message that guns are acceptable is against the parents' wishes, and the school and state have NO right to interfere there.

Fair point, but I'm not sure teaching basic safety necessarily sends the message that guns are acceptable. We teach kids what to do if they suspect that a friend is being abused or neglected, or what to do if they see a friend taking drugs or playing with matches or whatever. I think teaching kids what to do when encountering unattended guns pretty much falls into that category.

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Yet, night knight, the combination of alcohol and cars, alcohol and motor bikes, alcohol and high speed boats, alcohol and violence, and alcohol and plain stupidity account for more deaths per year than gun violence, the "difference between the two" being irrelevant. Guns weren't made to just kill, they were also made as a deterrent to violence and violent acts. Yes, some people misuse them, as people also misuse alcohol and cars and other every day things. The fact of the matter is, gun haters call for the banning of guns simply as a knee jerk reaction to senseless tragedies such as this one, yet when senseless tragedies happen far more frequently when alcohol is a factor, nobody calls for the banning of alcohol. Instead, we hear "responsible drinking", "education of alcohol", and "drink responsibly". Can we not call for the same, night knight, and others, with regards to weapons of any sort? Is not this what the NRA is calling for with its Eagle Project?

Yes, yes, night knight, those stories really didn't and don't happen; they're just make-believe like Grimm's Fairy Tales. Keep believing this and sticking your head in the sand. It's just like the Rape of Nanjing and the Bataan Death March: since these didn't appear in J-History textbooks, they must not have happened either. But just so we're clear.........

http://gunssavelives.net/

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/02/02/10-stories-that-prove-guns-save-lives-n1503549/page/full

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell

http://www.shtfplan.com/headline-news/white-house-study-finds-guns-save-lives-consistently-lower-injury-rates-among-gun-using-crime-victims_06272013

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2013/04/02/guns_save_lives_117747.html

These may or may not be "(w)ithout any ties to real life", but I'll let you, night knight --- and anyone else who cares to peruse these --- be the judge of that.

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@Jennifer Richardson

I can see your point about lax gun control, however the situation isn't as hopeless as you make it sound. There's a single simple, easy and effective solution... limit ammo. Ammunition has a limited shelf life and within about 10 years the system should come right. Tag each round (a sliver of metal with a higher melting point inserted into the base of the round - the lab just applies enough heat to melt lead, extracts the sliver and the round is identified), require people to account for their ammunition use (e.g. 100 rounds at the firing range, co-signed by the range supervisor), require people to identify themselves when buying ammunition and scans the box and ID into a national registry, etc. This is hardly rocket science and not hard to do.

If a bullet is found where it doesn't belong then it can be traced back to it purchaser quickly and easily. If you want to buy rounds you have to show your license.

The gun is not the problem, the bullets are, and bullets are very easy to control.

What's best is that the "right to bear arms" isn't interfered with... but it is now paired with the responsibility to account for how you used those arms.

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@ Frungy

Yeah, restricting ammo in that way sounds like it would work, if it has that short a shelf life. Was actually unaware of that--I've never noticed any expiry date on any of mine or had anyone tell me that, but I tend to rotate through mine at least every few years, since I don't really stockpile & I shoot regularly.

I just asked my dad & he said he'd used shotgun shells that were 30 to 40 years old with no problems, maybe a misfire or two out of several hundred shells. Internet anecdotes are backing that up--firing military surplus from the 50s, for instance, and getting 100% fire rate. I'm also seeing quotes mostly of 20+ years for properly stored ammo before it starts to degrade--but that means a decrease in accuracy, not failure to fire. So I'm wondering where you get your 10-year figure? Not trying to be combative, honestly wondering, because it seems like a pretty big difference between "in ten years most of the ammo that people currently have stockpiled (or would stockpile before a law goes into effect) will be more or less unusable" and "in 20 - 50 years that ammo will not be as accurate and may occasionally misfire." In the first case, I think there's real potential for effective gun control in a reasonable time frame; in the second, not so much...

Still, I think you're right that ammo is indeed the best leverage point for any kind of effective restrictions.

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The funny thing is, despite ALLLL the guns in america,the amount of times a gun has ever actually successfully been used in self-defense by a civilian is so low that it is considered by anyone with a background in statistics to be "statistically insignificant". "Gun accidents" alone, which isn't much, even kill more than civilians reportedly save in self-defence.

The amount of violent gun crimes on the other hand? Almost too high to keep track of.

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Jennifer RichardsonAug. 10, 2014 - 11:56AM JST So I'm wondering where you get your 10-year figure? Not trying to be combative, honestly wondering, because it seems like a pretty big difference between "in ten years most of the ammo that people currently have stockpiled (or would stockpile before a law goes into effect) will be more or less unusable" and "in 20 - 50 years that ammo will not be as accurate and may occasionally misfire." In the first case, I think there's real potential for effective gun control in a reasonable time frame; in the second, not so much...

A fair question. Its a combination of two factors:

Ammo does have a limited shelf-life, but it depends hugely on how well it is stored, local climate, etc. I've mostly lived in humid and/or wet countries. Moisture significantly shortens the reliable life-span of ammunition, as does careless storage and careless handling. Stored by a professional in a moisture-controlled environment I can well believe the 40 year figure, however stored by someone who is careless I think that 10 years would be a realistic figure.

The most important part though is that ammo is used. I cannot imagine ANYONE having more than a 10 year supply stockpiled, not even the biggest gun nut. Someone who's not using their gun and not firing off ammunition is unlikely to have a large supply. Someone who's using their gun might have a bigger supply, but will run through it faster.

The number of cases solved by identifying the ammo will probably start off small, but by about the 10 year mark it should hit around 90% and stay there, because some people will be able to employ professional gunsmiths to make them custom rounds for criminal activities, however these would not be run-of-the-mill thugs, and you can be pretty sure that drive-bys would stop being 100 rounds sprayed at random and instead become 2 precise shots, because custom-made rounds would be expensive (both in time and materials and in the risk the gunsmith was taking by making the rounds).

Watch Chris Rock doing some standup on this topic, it is pretty hilarious, but he has a darned good point (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II).

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@ Frungy

Thanks for your well-considered answer. Your comments have changed my perspective on this issue. And that Chris Rock vid was funny!

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