Turkish PM blasts Israel president at Davos
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67 Comments
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0
adaydream
He probably was being attacked. The world community was outraged at Israel's unmerciful bombing. < :-)
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Goya_Vencedor
Geez, I like how you mischievously take facts out of their context to form your own conjecture in order to confuse the subject at matter. Israel has the right to defend themselves from enemies that want to exterminate them.
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SuperLib
I'm glad the leaders are putting the economic crisis on hold to have this kind of discussion. It's great.
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SezWho2
Yes, let's not let a little death and destruction get in the way of prosperity for the rest of us.
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jeancolmar
Good for Erdogan, and shame on David Ignatius for not giving him equal tine to answer that Israeli murderer. Israel began the hostilities with its blockade, which is an act of war. Israel began these hostilities because it did not like that the people of Gaza elected Hamas to represent them in free and open elections. Gaza is indeed an open air prison, but one in which Israeli soldiers slaughtered innocent civilians, including women and children.
One can almost forget for a Turkish oppression of its minorities and its denial of the Armenian Holocaust. Good for Erdogan for snubbing one the butchers of Gaza and the swine who cheered him.
0
grafton
Shimon Peres was angry because he can see the gullible being manipulated & Israel being turned into the aggressor when it was hamas that wanted & started this situation.
Hamas should celebrate because they have “won” the propaganda war, which is what they wanted all a long. The Palestinian civilians paid the price in dead, but so what, hamas doesn’t mind the dead, they still rule & just look at all the money the dumb gullible west are going to pump into Gasa.
What Israel really needs to do now is open a demilitarised zone on the Gasa side of the frontier & kill ANYTHING that enters it. After which they will have no need to talk with the hamas savages. Every time a rocket is fired into Israel fire twenty back randomly into Gasa. Close the Gasa off & forget about it, let them breed themselves into oblivion.
0
Triumvere
No, one cannot "almost forget". We are accountable for our actions, as are states and the citizens that comprise them. That includes Israel and its devistation, its settlements. It also includes Palestine and its Hamas, its rockets, it's suicide bombs. You don't target children (or strap bombs to them) and get a pass becasue of "opression" or insults to your "dignity", or because "the cause" is fashionable with a certain brand of politics.
Meditate on this: claiming Hamas as the "legitimate" government of Gaza is a double edged sword; it makes Hamas' rockets and bombs clear cut acts war, and legitimizes the Israeli response in turn. When the people voted for Hamas, they voted for war, whether or not that was their primarly intention. And war they got, a brutal, "unmerciful" war against a much more powerful foe. There is no such thing as "merciful" or "propotionate" war.
Israel has commitied many sins,to be sure, but if people ever want this conflict to end, they need to stop thinking about "justice" (and revenge) and start thinking about solutions.
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skipthesong
Israel began these hostilities because it did not like that the people of Gaza elected Hamas to represent them in free and open elections" Well, you know, I would be upset if the KKK or the Nazi party again got elected. Why should they be happy that their enemy won an election? Not for nothing, the whole idea behind Hamas has been the destruction of Israel. So, why should they be happy?
Turkey? How many years into modern history did they control Greece? They had their empire, and a large one at that that saw much of what caused such hatred amongst Muslims and Jews.
0
ebisen
Let's not forget that the entire Palestine problem was caused by the Turkish Empire starting a war they couldn't possibly win almost 100 years ago. BUT - a very big BUT - Turkey really advanced it's foreign and internal politics in the last century, one the most impressive advance of a democracy. They got rid of "ruling by Islam" and the religious influence in politics and have quite a modern system (definitely better than USA's bible belt driven ruling). So I can fully understand their PM's frustration - hit the Israelis when and where they didn't expected. This is soo far from Taro Aso and Japanese politics in general :)))
0
jeancolmar
You something skip, Israel was once Hamas's biggest supporter because they saw it as alternative to the PLO. That aside, Hamas is no more the KKK or Nazi party than Likhud. And that aside, it was an elected government and whatever it was the basic rules of civilized international law dictate that the people's rule has to be respected. Israel, were it not run by fanatics and opportunists, would have made diplomatic efforts to work with that elected government. That is what normal civilized people do. But Israel has forgone being a civilized country for all its high cultural trappings. Nazis? The Israelis are the new Nazis.
0
WilliB
Erdogan reveals himself as the islamist fanatic that he is. He repeats the islamist talking points (like jeancolmar does here), and ignores reality.
How does he want Israel to respond to Hamas aggression? He does not tell. The implication is that Isreal must cease to exist, as Hamas states in its charter.
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timorborder
This is interesting. Rather than Israel being targeted by the "usual suspects" (those Islamic countries that need to get their own house in order before pointing fingers), it is being criticized by Turkey, one of the most pro-Western Islamic countries in the world. This could be very interesting if the arguments put forward by Turkey gain some traction.
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sabiwabi
WilliB, can you read? "As he spoke, Peres often turned toward Erdogan, who in his remarks had criticized the Israeli blockade of Gaza, saying it was an “open air prison, isolated from the rest of the world” and referred to the Palestinian death toll of about 1,300, more than half of those civilians. Thirteen Israelis also died."
All Israel has to do to stop the rockets is treat the Palestinians as human beings, not as cattle.
Also, you seem to be confusing Islamist fanaticism and common human decency.
BTW, did Erdogan really refer to the 13 Israelis who also died? Me think not!
I'm curious to know who applauded.
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sabiwabi
Pot, meet kettle.
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skipthesong
You something skip, Israel was once Hamas's biggest supporter because they saw it as alternative to the PLO. That aside, Hamas is no more the KKK or Nazi party than Likhud." Once! Once! and now? Well, they ain't. You are asking people to be happy that their enemy is running the place. I am however happy to see you acknowledge the resemblance.
And, while I think Turkey is a great place and the people are cool, Turkey is just as much responsible for what is going on there if we connect this story with yesterday's posts. With all the real and actual genocide going on in the world, I find it odd that only the Gaza conflict is in the headlines and ONLY the Jews are the bad guys.
0
bebert
And you continue to steal more land and populate it with religious fanatics, even when your meal ticket, the USA, meekly asks you not to.
4,000+ American lives given in the Iraq War wasn't worth it to make the Middle East safe for Israel, especially when Israel shows no -NO- gratitude for the American sacrifice.
Let's just hope this is the beginning of the end of good relations between Turkey and Israel.
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smithinjapan
'“Why did they fire rockets? There was no siege against Gaza,” Peres said, his voice rising in emotion. “Why did they fight us, what did they want? There was never a day of starvation in Gaza.”'
Never a day of starvation in Gaza?!? No seige?! Euphemize things all you want, a seige is certainly what it was and is, and the result is a Warsaw-like ghetto.
Why am I not surprised that the moderator, who allows Israel full time to speak but cut off the Turkish PM, is American?
0
SuperLib
My, my, my...someone is full of propaganda this week...
0
techall
As if the Turks don't shell and bomb Kurd town is Northern Iraq every now and then.
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SuperLib
I believe the blockade started a year and a half after Hamas was elected so I don't think you'll find much support when you say the blockade was because of the election. Egypt (and Israel) started the blockade after Hamas took over Gaza by force, slaughtering innocent Palestinians. Some might even call it genocide.
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sabiwabi
I think this is the beginning of the end of good relations between the world and Israel. Once the American public wakes up, their government will hopefully follow.
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wuzzademcrat
"Never a day of starvation in Gaza?!? No seige?! Euphemize things all you want, a seige is certainly what it was and is, and the result is a Warsaw-like ghetto."
I just laugh at people who are telling you one week that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth! and a week later try to come here with insinuations about an orchestrated genocide being carried out there by Israel.
Question - why does Hamas have all that firepower and yet, supposedly, no food to feed familes which are over twice the average size found in North America or W Europe?
What really amuses is that the same posters here who will defend Hamas are also the staunchest gun control proponents on threads even tangentially touching upon gun ownership in the US.
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sabiwabi
No, severe restrictions were imposed immediately after the election. Israel has had a stranglehold on Gaza ever since.
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kinniku
Incorrect. The borders were closed after the battle of Gaza in June 2007, Hamas won in the elections in January of 2006 or over a year before. Glad to see you suggest that Israel did not have a 'stranglehold' on Gaza before that time (June 2007), though.
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samuraisam
Turkish Prime Minister's reaction was understandable to Mr. Peres' typical remarks.
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/sieg01_.html
Isreali response is getting outright shameless these days. I was mentored by Henry Seigle during my graduate training and he is great man. We are looking at outright genocide coming in the next 5-10 years, and for him to be this prevoked, to bring out truth, may "god" help us all.
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samuraisam
Correction Seigman. Been a long time since i've been in school.
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skipthesong
We are looking at outright genocide coming in the next 5-10 years" Yup, and many of the posters here will be helping in the extermination of the Jews...
Perhaps next time the Jews should have picked some deserted Island as their home.
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medievaltimes
He probably just had to use the toilet.
0
google_yahoo
Again a Jewish Journalist,"David R. Ignatius" comes to protect Israel. Which shows the impartiality of the debate.
0
SezWho2
SuperLib,
I think the proper retort to that is, "I know you are, but what am I?"
You wouldn't have to post such silliness if you were to abandon the notion that sarcasm is a meaningful contribution or if you concerned yourself with what people said rather than speculating on why or how they said it.
Of course, the function of Davos is not to resolve the dispute between Israel and Palestine or even to affix blame for it. But as Netanyahu said, the financial meltdown is reversible and in that half of his observation he was right. That is going to be dealt with no matter what happens in Davos. And what has happened in Davos in the past, or in all the economic councils among the talking heads, has done very little to help the third-world boot-strap itself or even give it a leg up.
So, what is more important than peace? Perhaps that confrontation was exactly what was wanted and needed.
0
skipthesong
I'd like to see Turkey take a stance on other genocides going on in the world...
0
AlfGarnett
i applaud what he done. He was trying to help make peace but sees Israel commit brutal genocide on the Gazanas , and he is rightly cheesed off.
Strewth, can't people see Israel and the US are isolated. The world majority have the ame anger of the Turkish Pm simply because them Israelis is in the wrong.
0
some14some
Shoe thrower, this time from Turkey, quite understandable.
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skipthesong
Turkey is one of the last countries to make any statement such as this.
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sabiwabi
June 2007 might be when the current blockade started, but severe restrictions were imposed immediately after Hamas won the election. Might not have been as severe as it is now, but Israel immediately imposed restrictions to collectively punish the Gazans for having elected Hamas.
kinniku, You often seem to do this kind of thing: try to refute other people's posts with facts, which might be true, but omit important information.
0
sabiwabi
But this is not a conflict between Jews and Muslims, its a conflict between zionist criminals and humanity.
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skipthesong
sabi,
This is a conflict between Jews and Muslims, there just happens to be others who live in both places.
Why, why were not the Jews allowed to claim independence as well as moving in? Because they didn't want Jews living there. From day 1 after the UN granted Israel the right to exist, they were bombarded left and right.
If the Palestinians have a problem with the country of Israel, hey, instead of cheering the Turk, they should be yelling at them.
0
sabiwabi
skip,
Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived together in Palestine in peace for a long time, until the zionist criminals set out to create a judeo-supremacist state on Palestinian land.
0
smithinjapan
wuzzademcrat: "I just laugh at people who are telling you one week that Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth! and a week later try to come here with insinuations about an orchestrated genocide being carried out there by Israel."
Ummm.... sorry, but are you suggesting that genocide can only be carried out in vast swaths of land with no people? On the contrary, the more people packed into one place and starving, the more that are going to die. Perhaps you ought to take grade 1 Mathematics while the rest of us adults talk. What's more, do show me where my post states that I believe genocide was being carried out. I can easily go back and show you posts in former threads where I argued AGAINST people who said that this is genocide, saying that was too extreme, but I do agree that for the morons on said threads who said arguing against Israel is akin to being for the holocaust... well... it's clearly a LOT easier to compare the situation of Palestinians to the suffering of Jews 60 years ago than it is to say you support a holocaust if you don't believe the Jews have the right to slaughter innocents.
"Question - why does Hamas have all that firepower and yet, supposedly, no food to feed familes which are over twice the average size found in North America or W Europe?"
I haven't ever checked, but I'm pretty sure you can't digest the parts that are used to make bombs. I also can't quote you stats, but I'm pretty darn sure there are more people in Gaza eating than there are bombs and bomb makers. Both weapons AND foodstuffs have to be smuggled in with the walls put up there, and while it may only take a certain amount of parts to make bombs and rockets, it takes a whole lot more food to feed all the people there, and the supply of the latter has to be constant.
"What really amuses is that the same posters here who will defend Hamas are also the staunchest gun control proponents on threads even tangentially touching upon gun ownership in the US."
Show me who's defending Hamas.
Oh wait! that's right... you're of your many past handles' mindframes that if you don't support one group, you automatically support the other. Hmmmm... guess it really makes your head spin when the same people who are against Israel's excessive reaction are also against the Hamas government. The black and white logic you espouse has been proven to be not only the 'logic' of the mentally deficient, but of losers world-round. Get with the times, my friend, and get a little more real.
I ask again, do you believe this Israeli moronic claim that 'no one has starved in the Gaza'? and that Israel is the victim here?
The Turkish PM was fully right in walking off the stage. It was very good of him to admit it was not because of the Israeli PM but because of the biased American moderator, though.
0
smithinjapan
As I and many people stated before... Israel's biggest mistake in all this was underestimated world outrage for its crimes against humanity. While I can't think of a single country that outright supports Hamas, aside from Iran, perhaps, and more than a couple of posters who went above and beyond in trying to defend them (and got ripped apart in the process), Israel has lost pretty much all world support. No one is buying the 'impassioned' "Why did they fight us?" victim crap after what Israel did in Gaza. Oh, sure... this is only the Turkish PM that walked off, but I'm quite sure he's getting a hell of a lot more support for doing so than the poor little victim PM of Israel.
Israel made a big mistake in being extremely excessive with their retaliation, and now it's starting to show. Not to worry though, for those of you who believe Israel can do now wrong; if Obama gives them carte blanche, which would be a travesty, Israel will simply go back to 'who the hell cares what you think'.
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wuzzademcrat
smithinjapan:"Israel has lost pretty much all world support."
Can you be specific, just once?
0
YangYong
Nice one. Like any bully who doesn't know, a kick in the pants wakes them up. 'Oh, I see, THAT'S why I got it back'.
0
YuriOtani
I suppose Israel was suppose to kill in direct proportion to their dead, etc? Have a few rockets fall well do the exact in return. Does this have to go down to the types of people killed? What would of the correct response to the Hamas attacks been?
0
gonemad
Then Hamas does have the same right, doesn't it? Why do you make a difference?
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Again, incorrect. You can keep repeating that, however, what made things more severe (and in fact led to direct fighting between Israel and Hamas) was Qassam rockets being shot into Israel and the capture of the Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit. It was not "immediately after the election".
I believe those sanctions were US-led, not Israeli led (although they were definitely supported by Israel)...The US considered and still considers Hamas a "terrorist organization", as does the EU and many other parts of the world. Unfortunately, Hamas does not give people a chance to think otherwise...
You should be careful of the huge amount of information you constantly "forget" to include yourself before chastising others...
0
kinniku
Yeah, it was smiles and happiness all around. All we need is another "empire" to come along and make things wonderful again...
What exactly do you ingest to see the fantasy world that you do? The Ottoman Empire finished a long time ago and its end had nothing to do with "Zionist criminals"...
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
It is kind of hard to take you seriously when you write things like this:
It seems to me that you see "Zionist Criminals" and "Jewish" as being the same thing...
That certainly explains a lot.
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sabiwabi
Kinniku, amazing that you continue to paste old (very old) posts without the proper context. Also amazing that you haven't been able to provide an adequate answer. That certainly does explain a lot. And yes, most "Zionist Criminals" are "Jewish", but why are your implying that I believe that Jews are zionist criminals? Being deceptive again?
0
sabiwabi
You keep on doing the same thing. You write something that is probably correct but which does not refute what I wrote. So still haven't provided anything to explain why I was incorrect.
I'll try one more time. After the elections, Israel imposed severe restrictions on Gaza and they later became more severe (maybe in June 2007, as you wrote). Even Christiane Amanpour on CNN, which you trust, stated several times how Israel has had a stranglehold on Gaza ever since Hamas won the election. Just because the restrictions later became more severe does not mean, as you are implying, that they were not there immediately after the election.
0
sabiwabi
Again, that might even be true, about who led the sanctions, but Israel certainly participated/contributed to them. Anyway, we can't really distinguish between the US government and Israeli government. Recall how Olmert told Bush how rice Rice should vote on a resolution.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
Thank you so much for your response...
Let me address your points:
You are still incorrect about supposed "Israeli" restriction immediately after the Hamas victory in the elections. I believe those sanctions were US-led, not Israeli led (although they were definitely supported by Israel)...The US considered and still considers Hamas a "terrorist organization", as does the EU and many other parts of the world.
Your claims of the US and Israeli governments being one and the same rings extremely hollow considering your demonstrated lack of perspective and balance, in addition to your demonstrated bias against Jews and/or "Zionists". Of course Israel participated in the sanctions. Why shouldn't they? They had every right to do so. You seem to have forgotten that in addition to the US, the EU also participated. Sorry, you are wrong again...
If you think I am wrong, perhaps you could specifically speak to the 'restrictions' you are referring to to clear things up. What specific 'severe restrictions' specifically came about immediately after the elections?
A post from October 2006 is not that "old". I see you really have not read what you wrote. You wrote "Zionist and/or Jewish controlled". In case you have forgotten what 'and/or' means, it means you are both claiming all Western media is Zionist or Jewish or both of the two and you are further suggesting this is a bad thing. No deception. By the way, what "context" is needed for what most people would consider a racist statement. If someone says they hate such and such a people and you come back with nahhh these other people are worse, you are being just as racist as the people to whom you are responding.
Besides, you still felt the same way about "Jews" in January 2007 when you wrote:
You've written so much of this that it is still amazing that you would attempt to deny what you wrote...
0
sabiwabi
Thank you for agreeing that Israel participated in the sanctions after Hamas won the elections. This is consistent with CNN's Christiane Amanpour's repeated comments that Israel has had a stranglehold on Gaza ever since Hamas won the election.
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kinniku
That is not what you wrote however, is it? You wrote it was 'immediately after' Hamas won the election. BTW, I will discount what you write about CNN as you constantly claim you do not trust them.
0
sabiwabi
kinniku, yes it was immediately after Hamas won the elections, or maybe a few days after, stop splitting hairs again. It was definitely way before the June 2007 you were pushing.
Indeed, I don't trust western media, they have an obvious pro-Israeli bias. I bring up CNN because you specifically stated you do not have a problem with CNN. And Christiane Amanpour on CNN, which you seem to trust, stated a number of times that Israel has had a stranglehold on Gaza ever since Hamas won the election.
0
kinniku
sabiwabi,
You are still incorrect. It was not immediately or even 'a few days' after Hamas won the elections. As I asked earlier: If you think I am wrong, perhaps you could specifically speak to the 'restrictions' you are referring to to clear things up. What specific 'severe restrictions' specifically came about immediately after the elections?
As to your comments about CNN, I am sorry but when you constantly discount a source of information, you cannot then choose to use that same source to attempt to support your argument. This is particularly true in this case for two reasons: One, your record of misquoting people is quite established. You even seem to have trouble quoting something I wrote a few posts ago. Two, while Ms. Amanpour might be an excellent reporter, she was offering an opinion and not neccessarily describing specific facts. Of course, since you are unable to provide specifics regarding the restrictions to which you are referring, I submit that it is possible that Ms. Amanpour was not referring specifically to Hamas winning elections and was referring to Hamas taking over Gaza. However, as I said, it does not matter what Ms. Amanpour meant as you have discounted her and her organization as a source too many times for you to now attempt to use it to attempt to support your argument.
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