Turkish jets hit Kurdish rebels in Iraq

Tuesday 07th October, 05:40 AM JST

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SezWho2 at 12:10 PM JST - 7th October

CavemanLawyer,

It's possible, isn't it, that blood and death is the only way that contested territory changes hands? If the US could have purchased its portion of North America the way the Dutch were reputed to have bought Manhattan, we would have saved lots of blood and death. But oddly enough many of the natives resisted the notion that the land was France's or Spain's to sell.

I agree that an opportunity was lost in the invasion of Iraq to settle a border dispute in the north. I don't agree that Turkey would have willingly given up its own territory any more than Serbia or Georgia are willing to give up what they consider to be theirs. However, there was no reason that in Iraq at least we could not have exercised the quintessential self-bestowed Anglo prerogative to redraw borders and redesign the world. Basically, with our no-fly zones we had already done that. Whether anyone would have been happy with the solution is another matter.

Turkey has the resident power in that region and it has been somewhat forbearing, I think. Apparently Turkey's patience is at an end. An independent Kurdistan might have been a good idea at one time and might be a good idea in the future. But I don't think the Kurds will presently consent to an independence without Kirkuk and I don't think the Iraqis will just give it to them. So, where do we go from here?
Nippon5 at 12:27 PM JST - 7th October

taniwha , That would be why I posted the articles showing the statements to verify my statments, but as they say.....

You can lead a horse to water but you cant make them drink.

Being a discussion board people will have different understandings of what they read and how they come to a conclusion on the facts, I dont agree Iraq was stable (even during the controlling times of the desert shield and the no flys and such) as it was always involved in wars and internal conflict. Sweden is stable, Canada is stable. But to you its a stabel enviroment and thats that its what you believe.

You are also correct on the part about Turkey stating they would not allow a Kurdish state in Northern Iraq, they claimed that would lead to a war. Also Sezwho2 is correct on the Kirkuk area being a stiking point on any change of borders from what they are now. Iraq doesnt wan to give up an oil rich area neither does the Kurds...

As where do we go from here, we dont its not our concern and we should allow those countries to work it out..
SezWho2 at 01:25 PM JST - 7th October

Nippon5,

I can live with allowing those countries to work it out if they keep it in their countries. However, as long as we (the US) are in Iraq, that will be kind of difficult.
taniwha at 01:25 PM JST - 7th October

Nippon5

Okay. this is getting away bit from the topic of the Kurds, but then Iraq is part of their story. What you saying now is a good deal different to what you said above.

I do think there are levels of stability. I find myself in agreement with much of CavemanLawyer's version of stability within a state.

When the term 'stability' is applied to a nation state, then it is likely we are assuming we agree on the principles behind nation building. To be fair, I admit to being a bit too strident, claiming "Iraq WAS stable". But what I was trying to get across is that Iraq was a dictatorship.

A dictatorship by convention is about repressing dissent with absolute authority in the hands of the dictator, al be it one individual or a group of them. Under that definition Iraq remained a dictatorship for 20 years. Remember that Stalin's Russia, Mao's China and Pinochet's Chile were dictatorship that lasted longer than a decade also.

Since you were talking about stability in terms of state control than I think Saddam's Iraq qualified as being stable enough, that is, for a single ruler to maintain rule (through the repressive security forces) and stay in power for 20 years. Which all just goes to show that stability can be mean many different things to many different people.

How do the Iraqis you meet these days rate their country's stability? You know that since the 2003 invasion of Iraq there has been 1 million Iraqis killed, and on top of that the number of Iraqi refugee exceeds 3 million people. I would hardly think that we should start talking just yet about stable Iraq was under Saddam's dictatorship. People will start making comparisons.
CavemanLawyer at 01:46 PM JST - 7th October

I don't agree that Turkey would have willingly given up its own territory

I did not say "would have" and I sure did not mean it. "Should have" would be more like it. Whether land that Kurds live on is Turkey's own territory is something I find debatable in the face of an independence movement.

All else I think we agree on.

So, where do we go from here?

All I got is continuing to preach fairness and justice and the right of a people to self determination over tight fisted selfish greed the depraved desire to rule as many people as one can. --Cirroc
Nippon5 at 02:40 PM JST - 7th October

SezWho2 at 01:25 PM JST - 7th October

Nippon5,

I can live with allowing those countries to work it out if they keep it in their countries. However, as long as we (the US) are in Iraq, that will be kind of difficult.

Yes and before us it was Russia and before them 3 times Britian... We need to allow the country to go its course, we cant always be the captain of the ship. I hope we can get out as soon as possible, but I dont want to have us leave it without Iraq having its own internal controls.. Hopefully soon this topic of the US in Iraq will not be a topic anymore....
CavemanLawyer at 02:46 PM JST - 7th October

Hopefully soon this topic of the US in Iraq will not be a topic anymore....

I believe our military industrial complex has every intent to keep a base in Iraq. They may view that as a means to distance ourselves from the Saudis. Allowing Turkey to attack Iraqi Kurds could present a compelling way to convince the Iraqis they need us for security. --Cirroc
SezWho2 at 03:23 PM JST - 7th October

CavemanLawyer,

Yes, I understood that you meant "should" have given up the land. My comment was that they "would not" have done so willingly. I think "should" invokes an action that appeals to a concept of the best thing to do. I think "would not" recognizes that there might be a difference of opinion about what is best. That's all I was saying about a Turkish refusal.
CavemanLawyer at 04:19 PM JST - 7th October

That's all I was saying about a Turkish refusal.

Agreed. Most unfortunately for the human race, it is par for the course.

I see that our disagreements are often small. Glad to know that another thinks much the same as I do. --Cirroc
taniwha at 04:36 PM JST - 7th October

I think you are all skipping over the point somewhat conveniently. Nippon5 touches on it -

Yes and before us it was Russia and before them 3 times Britian... We need to allow the country to go its course, we cant always be the captain of the ship. I hope we can get out as soon as possible, but I dont want to have us leave it without Iraq having its own internal controls.. Hopefully soon this topic of the US in Iraq will not be a topic anymore....

Iraq wasn't Iraq until the allies carved it out at the end of WW1. That colonialist desire to create a client state so that its resources could be harvested is still with us now. The problem the West faces is a direct result of messing with the locals to divest them of their resources/treasures. Today the imperialist aim is to control access to all the oil in the ME. That's about it.

Nippon5 is right, there will have to be some kind of "internal controls" in Iraq. But don't fool yourself, they won't be placed there by the common wishes of the Iraqi people. They will be placed there by a proxy government, like the one they have now, in the pocket of the US. Actually that is precisely what has already happening. And its not working. It won't work and it can't.

This is one of the main reasons the conflict in Iraq is not near over. The other reason is whole ME is totally destabalized at this point. It will blow up. That much is certain. Whether a major conflation just develops from here slowly growing, or explodes out of another major attack from the West, say upon Iran, it all can no longer be put back together.
skipthesong at 06:55 PM JST - 7th October

Just because you and a group of you want to have a separate country does not mean everyone must be obliged to grant you one. If people here are going to root for everyone who wants to set up a separate state, bear in mind you will be going around in circles.

Turkey has a right to defend themselves and regardless of where their enemies lie, it should be understood that going into Iraq is more a fault of the PKK and not Turkey.
taniwha at 07:57 PM JST - 7th October

Hey Skip

We all have a right to defend ourselves.

But many who claim the right find themselves labelled terrorists, whereupon, like magic, they don't have any rights, not even to defend themselves.
adaydream at 10:58 PM JST - 7th October

We attacked Iraq and stole it from the Iraqi people, so by occupation, these people are Americans/Iraqi citizens.

So, by occupation, these PKK rebels are Americans/Iraqi citizens. This being said, why isn't the Iraqi government and/or United States involved in trying to resolve this cross border crisis.

I think it was last year that the United States turned a blind eye to Turkey's first attacks since our occupation. We allowed and by doing nothing condoned the killing of Americans/Iraqis by occupation. I hear all this crap about we protect our own. (Remember Georgia, and Russia attacking?) This is similar and we're saying and doing nothing. < :-)
adaydream at 08:24 AM JST - 8th October

Again, these are Americans by occupation and Iraqi citizens by birth. Both governments need to get off their ass and protect their citizens. < :-)
SuperLib at 02:08 PM JST - 10th October

Wow...daydream is telling the US to attack and kill Turks. I never thought I'd see the day coming...heh.