U.S. teachers take up arms to prevent mass shootings

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  • -3

    Hide Suzuki

    crazy people vs crazy criminals,

    it will never stop, let them continue their stupidity

  • 0

    alimel1969

    I don't like this at all. I don't want a gun in my childs classroom. If the schools are that concerned then they should have armed officers on school grounds but not arm the teachers. I worry more of a careless teacher than I do a crazed gunman breaking into my childs school. And I am a gun owner and a member of the NRA (required for my local gun club membership). Though their encouraging arming teachers and comments of late are making me rethink my membership.

  • 7

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    " and educators, determined not to allow a repeat of the Newtown massacre, are flocking to training sessions.…" “We had about 400 that wanted to do it and we only had seating for about 180,” USSC board member Bill Scott told AFP."

    "As teachers stripped semi-automatic pistols on tables at the USSC gathering, Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein was putting the final touches to a bill that would ban weapons like the one Lanza used in Newtown."

    Pardon me for pointing out Feinstein' blatant hypocrisy, but Feinstein has had a ConcealedCarryWeapons permit since 1995, quite a feat in the bastion of liberty known as California. Doesn't it ring very hypocritical to the anti-gun lobbyists that the elite send their children to private schools with numerous armed guards, not to mention the Secret Service(SS) guarding Obama's daughters at that same school? Reeks to high heaven!

  • -7

    Thomas Anderson

    Only in America.

  • 6

    plasticmonkey

    They tend to pick targets where they know there will be lots of innocent victims and they’re not going to encounter any resistance.

    So by that reasoning, these 'bad guys' will stop shooting up schools and start shooting up family restaurants. Until we arm all service staff. And then they'll start shooting up malls, bookstores, cafes, public libraries, swimming pools, etc, until everybody is armed all the time, clothed or naked, awake or asleep.

    It's an arms race to oblivion. Utterly pathetic.

  • -3

    technosphere

    Better solution. Convert every American school into Gulag type camp, with curtain on perimeter and submachine gun turrets mounted on towers. After that you will get a 100% safe school territory.

  • -5

    Dara Danh

    I'm really for it, but as long as there are having the children and safety of students and staff in mind, I guess. But all firearms should be locked and hidden away from view. maybe a emergency lock box. and make sure the firearms isn't loaded, for fear of accidently discharged.

    I'm against the assault rifle ban, mainly because it will give the criminals who already own and/or can obtain them illegally a huge advantage over law-abiding citizens.

  • 5

    yabits

    So by that reasoning, these 'bad guys' will stop shooting up schools and start shooting up family restaurants.

    Yes, and so it is better for communities and society to work on pre-emptive measures such as a simple database that indicates who is purchasing large amounts of guns and/or ammunition. Lanza came with enough ammo to kill the entire school.

  • 2

    noriyosan73

    Will the teacher be required to complete a weapon certification course in order to remain employed? Will the teacher have to swear in writing to use the weapon when confronted by a trespassing criminal? Will the teacher be granted immunity if the teacher kills a student or employee? The USA needs to follow the example of many Asian countries by executing criminal for the first offense rather than following the dogma that any criminal can be rehabilitated in prison.

  • 1

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    Perhaps one point many people have overlooked is that it took 20 long minutes before first responders arrived on the scene in Newtowne during which time the carnage continued. Waiting for someone to save you is how the people have been conditioned to act. You see this "victim" mindset repeated in so many situations. How about being proactive for your own sake? Certain commentators deride those who plan ahead, using the term "preppers" as a pejorative, but when there's a natural disaster , those who prepare will more likely survive intact, including their family.

    These educators are willing to protect those children in their charge and for whom they care. It's being proactive.

  • -3

    SushiSake3

    Arming teachers still won't make American society safe.

    No! I recommend arming all social workers, especially those who deliver meals to elderly folk, most of whom are no doubt packing serious heat in their strollers and walking aids.

    Who knows when an unarmed social worker will be shot dead on the doorstep by an upset granddad whose grandson was shot last week at school by a crazed gunman who was p*ssed because his mate was shot by another gunman who went nuts because his son was caught in the crossfire in a shootout by a gunman who ........?

  • -3

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    " who is purchasing large amounts of guns and/or ammunition…"

    Funny you should mention that. Homeland Security has contracted to buy up to 450 million .40-caliber bullets -- and that total exceeds the nation’s population.

    So, that would hopefully top your list, no?

  • 1

    lucabrasi

    Problem is, the very teachers who choose to be armed are likely to be macho types, interested in guns and looking for an excuse to use one. How long before an innocent visitor to the school is gunned down by an over-zealous educator. Or someone having a bad day after a row with a parent decides to "go postal" on their class?

    Bad news for civilisation.

  • -1

    Laguna

    A sad, sad comment on the reality of America. The "three Rs" have become four: reading, writing, arithmetic, and revolvers.

  • 0

    yabits

    Homeland Security has contracted to buy up to 450 million .40-caliber bullets -- and that total exceeds the nation’s population. So, that would hopefully top your list, no?

    Gee, Herve, a list is exactly what is needed. Glad some of this is getting through.

  • 2

    sailwind

    Dr. Suzanna Hupp, her testimony before Congress should be required viewing by everyone who before debating this issue.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEJFAvA-ZUE

  • -1

    SuperLib

    Yeah, I'm guessing a lot of these people are gun loving nutters who think they've just found a way to bring their precious babies to school with them.

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa: Perhaps one point many people have overlooked is that it took 20 long minutes before first responders arrived on the scene in Newtowne during which time the carnage continued.

    A lot of people are probably focusing on the fact that some gun nutter lady had quite a few weapons and her nutjob son had easy access to them. And you aren't really giving me a lot to cheer for when your plan only ends up with 10 dead kids instead of 20.

    And may I ask when your plan has an end? Let's say you are successful, you put guns in schools, and no school shooting happen. Instead they happen at other places where people congregate. Will you chime in with the same response of arming people at those places, too? I feel like we should be working backwards and I should ask which places you would not like to see guns. Are there any?

  • -2

    zichi

    A tracking device should be built into all guns and if disarmed would also disable the weapon.

  • 2

    The_Pope

    Lets see, there are armed guards in banks and government buildings, so are you saying money and politicians are more important than our children???

  • 1

    Farmboy

    With a few teaching tools, like a notebook, chalk, a bazooka, a few grenades, and some small, satellite controlled nukes, educators will be ready to take out any dangerous, mentally disturbed kids. Meanwhile, the "Learn or Die" disciplinary series will undoubtedly help motivate any laggards that have been holding back the classes. America will without question continue to be a world leader in education.

  • 0

    gokai_wo_maneku

    This may look great now, but wait for the first teacher to snap and go crazy and shoot up all their students. Then how will it look? How many mass shootings like this will it take before teachers will be disarmed.

  • 0

    BurakuminDes

    Once one of these teachers goes nuts and guns down their whole classroom - which will happen, no doubt about it - these gun-crazies will then promote all children carrying assault weapons to school "for protection". There is no end to the madness of the gun crazies in America.

  • -1

    SushiSake3

    If anything even half resembling this nutjob idea is implemented, it will become another step in Amerika's ongoing slide into anarchy. If teachers are allowed to carry arms, who will be next? Hospital staff, nurses, bus drivers? Pizza delivery drivers?

    What a joke. 

    The right wing blogs have been going off - even now - about how gun registration is - somehow - a breach of privacy, while the same folks don't make a peep about how drivers license, SS and tax number registration requires the turning over of more personal information.

    The real whackos out there are the ones who are actually taking this proposal seriously. 

    Americans need to take their country back - from the nutjob extremist TeaPublican wingers - most of them conservatives. 

  • -1

    SushiSake3

    America's now well on her way to resembling an outlaw-filled African state.

    More reason than ever to close the borders - keep the gun crazies inside.

  • 2

    Farmboy

    Hospital staff, nurses, bus drivers? Pizza delivery drivers?

    Well, at least pizza delivery drivers, I think.

  • 0

    SuperLib

    The_Pope: Lets see, there are armed guards in banks and government buildings, so are you saying money and politicians are more important than our children???

    Gosh, you've talked us all into a corner with that one. I guess I have no choice but to support armed schools. Dang.

  • -3

    skroknog

    Wow. All I can say is wow. Sounds like the whole of America is turning into Tombstone.

  • -1

    Madverts

    "Once one of these teachers goes nuts and guns down their whole classroom - which will happen, no doubt "

    On that day Wayne la Pierre should be in the dock for inciting murder.

    I can't believe the Newtown massacre isn't going to change things. Crazy, crazy people.

  • -1

    sailwind

    I tend to consider teachers on pretty much the same standard as I do airline pilots. Trustworthy and responsible with the charges they have been entrusted with. The possibility always exists that a person may snap no matter what profession one engages in, but I'm pretty confident that before a teacher or an airline pilot that has a access to a weapon is going to go mental is going to be way, way down on the list of my concerns.

    As a matter fact, airline pilots have volunteered to be trained and armed since after Sept 11, that's over ten years now. Not one has gone mental over the souls that have been entrusted to them during their flights.

    Also I see no one, even with the airline program that is forcing a person to take the training or to be armed if they do not wish to be as any sort of condition for employment. Only those that have no qualms or problem volunteering to take on the responsibility.

    Simple decision question actually if one is really concerned that their child may be a victim of a Mass shooters madness.

    Send your child to a school that allows staff to carry or to a school that is a designated gun free zone.

  • -2

    Madverts

    "but I'm pretty confident that before a teacher or an airline pilot that has a access to a weapon is going to go mental is going to be way, way down on the list of my concerns."

    The rest of us simply call that being in Denial.

    Even if arming teachers does stop school gun massacres (ignoring we already knows after Columbine this failed), the precedent you people are setting is that each time a nutter selects a new softer target, that these people should also be armed. And where does that end? When every single American simply has to be armed 100% because you don't know where the next bullet is coming from?

    That's some insane society you and p

  • -1

    Madverts

    Whoops, that's some you and old Pierre are advocating!

  • 0

    sailwind

    the precedent you people are setting is that each time a nutter selects a new softer target, that these people should also be armed.

    Precedent is called the second amendment, they're is no suggesting that anyone should or shouldn't also be armed if they are law abiding, they already have that right. That's reality.

    Fact is that reality isn't going to change. Solutions that actually acknowledges that right and considers it instead as a vital part when working for solutions to effect a better deterrence are based in reality, rather than the misguided fantasy of passing "Gun-Free" zones thinking it somehow affords magical protection from harm.

    And no Madverts, I do not wish that more guns are made available and I do not wish everybody carrying, I'm looking at the weapons that are already legally in the hands of law abiding citizens and how they can be better deployed then they currently are to deter and protect. Teachers volunteering to be armed and trained follows that type of solution and will not be challenged as unconstitutional and can work immediately. Its good to see some states are going to consider these option. The Federal Government can also lead by bringing Veterans back into the role of protectors with some smart legislation passed such as with partnering with schools for a total protection program.

    American's will step up just like these teachers are doing with most even being turned away, always have.....hopefully always will.

    More than half of the roughly 400 education professionals that showed an interest had to be turned away because there wasn’t enough room on the course.

  • -1

    SushiSake3

    Sailwind - "they're is no suggesting that anyone should or shouldn't also be armed if they are law abiding, they already have that right. That's reality. "

    And the whole problem.

    Sailwind - "Teachers volunteering to be armed and trained follows that type of solution and will not be challenged as unconstitutional and can work immediately. Its good to see some states are going to consider these option.

    Completely loony thinking, sorry.

    For extreme cases, I propose extreme measure be taken - **an arms amnesty. **

    Ban everyone except military and police from carrying and possessing weapons.

    Set the amnesty period at 12 months.

    Cashback.

    If anyone is found carrying or possessing a weapon from one day after the end of the amnesty - give them a nice choice of lock up or a $50,000 fine.

    Sail - "The Federal Government can also lead by bringing Veterans back into the role of protectors with some smart legislation passed such as with partnering with schools for a total protection program. "

    That's a good idea. Any questions? Grizzle to your cell mates.

    .

  • 0

    sailwind

    Sushi,

    Completely loony thinking, sorry.

    We trust teachers with our kids but we can't trust them with a gun.

    Ponder that for a moment

  • -1

    zurcronium

    Sailwind,

    Ideas do not kill kids. Guns do. In Utah some teacher will go nuts and pull out his pistol and shoot kids. Then the NRA will want to arm kids to protect them from armed teachers. The NRA will not stop until pets have guns.

    NRA membership is a sure fire tell for republican party alliance. The NRA has made guns political when in fact it is a public health issue, like smoking. Japan of course sees it that way and that is why 2 people died from guns in 2006.

    At heart the NRA is a terrorist organization that puts selling guns ahead of people. As a results 12000 people a year die in the USA via NRA guns. The NRA kills more than all terrorist organizations combined by flooding the country with automatic weapons.

  • -3

    SushiSake3

    Sail, nice try.

    But consider: gunman and armed teacher engage in shootout. Some kids get shot in crossfire. Trust em or  not, having more people firing in a confined space is just going to make things worse. 

    Total amnesty to get guns out of everyone's hands is what's needed.

    It's the whole culture of guns - virtually any Tom, Dick and Harry can get one - that is the whole problem.

    There was a weapons buyback in one of the states a few days ago. Someone handed in a rocket launcher for god's sake.

  • -3

    katakatakunta

    American logic = Armed staffs and teachers for preventing shooting, nuclear arsenal for non-proliferation use of non-peaceful nuclear technology, military aggression for preemptive action against human right and democracy oppression

  • 3

    sailwind

    But consider: gunman and armed teacher engage in shootout.

    I'd rather have it that the gunman is the one to have to seriously consider that there is a good possibility he's going to be engaged in a shoot-out, instead of a free fire killing zone all to himself to deter him from going ahead with it in the first place.

    Some kids get shot in crossfire. Trust em or not, having more people firing in a confined space is just going to make things worse.

    I can't think of anything that is worse then to be at the mercy of a killer who has zero fear that nothing is going to stop him during his spree until he decides to end it by offing his miserable self. One thing is clearly evident in these horrible events, the killer isn't going to spare anyone until he is dead or subdued and sure doesn't expect to have to adjust his plans.

    Somebody may be killed or injured in a cross fire granted, but conversely the killer is now confronted and having to deal with this new threat,. He has to adjust his plans. His focus is now entirely on that threat and not on his intended targets.

    And most importantly those that are NOT in that crossfire have just been bought some precious seconds to get the hell out of there and to safety. And the more seconds that tick away from him not being to accomplish his plan of killing as many innocent victims as he can the closer law enforcement is on the way to arrive at the scene to stop the bastard.

  • -4

    Madverts

    "the misguided fantasy of passing "Gun-Free" zones thinking it somehow affords magical protection from harm."

    The misguided fantasy is clinging to the obsession that ordinary people should have the right to bear arms when these people have proven time and time that they do not deserve such a responsibilty, with a yearly bodycount comparable to other countries civil freaking wars as evidence to back it up.

    All you bring to the table is short-term solutions that ultimately excaberates the situation. The furture holds nothing more than the gun manufacturers that are the NRA actually want - that every single American buys more and more guns, and presumably, as your society crumbles into some kind of a paranoid fortress.

    Also, teachers and pilots have both done deranged things, from turning up drunk or having a breakdown....right down to self-immolation. You should rethink your analargy.

  • -3

    Madverts

    "And the more seconds that tick away from him not being to accomplish his plan of killing as many innocent victims as he can the closer law enforcement is on the way to arrive at the scene to stop the bastard."

    More Chuck Norris fantasises...?

  • -2

    kaeru37

    More guns + slack rules and regulations = more gun related violence and death. It's very simple America. Don't you get it? More lunacy to come from the " supposed #1 developed country" in the world. Look at the statistics, they don't lie. America is right up there with places like Mexico, Columbia, Brazil, and other loving gun nations in terms of crimes and death at the hands of a gun. The sane, common sense individual seems to be in the minority in the good ole USA. You're making your bed.........

  • 0

    sailwind

    More Chuck Norris fantasises...?

    Madverts,

    Read it, read it all.

    Clackamas mall shooter faced man with concealed weapon

    The break in gunfire allowed Meli to pull out his own gun, but he never took his eyes off the shooter.

    "As I was going down to pull, I saw someone in the back of the Charlotte move, and I knew if I fired and missed, I could hit them," he said.

    Meli took cover inside a nearby store. He never pulled the trigger. He stands by that decision.

    "I'm not beating myself up cause I didn't shoot him," said Meli. "I know after he saw me, I think the last shot he fired was the one he used on himself."

    http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html

  • -5

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    " More guns + slack rules and regulations = more gun related violence and death. It's very simple America. Don't you get it?"

    The problem with this tripe is that facts and figures contradict such statements.

    Read the Harvard Journal Law & Public Policy study by Kates-Mauser.

  • 2

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    " gun nutter lady"

    This is the best the fearmongerers can do, ad hominem attacks.

    In the eyes of the left, every person who owns a gun is a "nutter". Would that include your gun-toting Feinstein, then?

  • -3

    BurakuminDes

    Send your child to a school that allows staff to carry

    Only a failed, irresponsible parent who does not value their kids lives would EVER send their child to a school with guns in it. PERIOD. Don't believe the fantasies of the gun-crazies.

  • 1

    sailwind

    The misguided fantasy is clinging to the obsession that ordinary people should have the right to bear arms when these people have proven time and time that they do not deserve such a responsibilty,

    Final thing Madverts, this ordinary man is only 22 years old that stopped the shooter in the mall. He was licensed to carry, he saw the that if he would have took a shot that it would have endangered others, he choose not to due to that concern, but he made it clear to the shooter he was there and that it was the shooter who was now in danger. Then the shooter offed himself. As horrible as the two deaths the shooter managed to cause before being confronted by this ordinary citizen, I promise you as soon this would have been a hell of lot worse.

    This ordinary man had the right to bear arms acted in the most responsible manner any one could hope for andhad forced this killer to change his plans and saved lives, and that Madverts is who you want to deny the right to carry arms for the defense of oneself or for others.

  • 1

    sailwind

    Only a failed, irresponsible parent who does not value their kids lives would EVER send their child to a school with guns in it. PERIOD.

    Your tax dollars at work:

    Nationwide, at least 23,000 schools — about one-third of all public schools — already had armed security on staff as of the most recent data, for the 2009-10 school year, and a number of states and districts that do not use them have begun discussing the idea in recent days.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/22/us/nra-calls-for-armed-guards-at-schools.html

  • -2

    yabits

    It's the whole culture of guns - virtually any Tom, Dick and Harry can get one - that is the whole problem.

    Well, you've certainly put your finger very close to the issue with that:

    Any fully competent and responsible "Tom, Dick or Harry" can get one, as well as any incompetent and irresponsible Tom, Dick and Harry. And therein lies a serious problem. There are no standards of competency. Everything is self-audited. Any teacher understands that that is just a disaster waiting to happen.

    Take, for example, the woman who was just arrested in NY state as being the one who supplied the weapons to the ex-convict who murdered the two fire-fighters responding to a fire. She claims the guns were "stolen," but NY law requires any gun-owner to report a missing or stolen firearm within 24 hours of discovery. Since there's no report of hers on record, she's in some serious trouble.

    The law that requires a gun owner to report a missing firearm is a sensible law, and we would expect all 50 states to have it on the books. But they don't, and it doesn't take much to guess who is opposed to such sensible laws. And therein lies another serious problem.

  • -1

    yabits

    Also, teachers and pilots have both done deranged things, from turning up drunk or having a breakdown

    Correct. An excellent point. But police officers have done deranged things too, and I don't think it is sensible to move to remove the weapons from all of law enforcement.

    If a citizen is truly responsible and competent -- and no amount of self-auditing can determine that, only a "peer-review," where was is expected has been inspected -- then their possession of firearms can have a tremendous positive impact on crime prevention.

    But an equally important point that I haven't seen brought up is the additional liability the schools take on when arming themselves. Once the random, crazed shooter-killer becomes a remote possibility, the statistical risk then gravitates towards accidents or irresponsible behavior as the main cause for injuries or death. Anyone who legally arms themselves takes on a responsibility and liability for any damage that might be caused through their negligence or incompetence.

    Private industry has a solution for that: risk assessment and insurance. The NRA suggests "belling the cat" by putting armed people in schools. How much are they and their membership willing to contribute to the liability costs behind their own suggestion?

  • 0

    sailwind

    The vast majority of airline pilots (over 90%) have opted out of the program that would allow them to carry weapons in the cockpit.

    Doesn't square with reality, 90 percent is more to the a lack of classroom size available to hold the training.

    Marcus Flagg, president of the Federal Flight Deck Officers Association, which represents armed pilots, said their numbers could grow more if training facilities expanded.

    Pilots train at a federal center in New Mexico. Classes hold 48 people and have been filled or nearly filled for five years, Minerly said.

    http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2012-01-22/news/fl-cockpit-guns-201201201federal-flight-deck-officers-armed-pilots-federal-air-marshal-service

    "Interest in the program and participation both remain strong," said Kimberly Thompson, spokeswoman for the Federal Air Marshal Service, which trains armed pilots. "There are no shortages of applicants."

    http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/travel/flights/2008-03-31-armed-pilots_N.htm

    • Moderator

      All readers back on topic please. The subject is arming teachers.

  • 2

    Thunderbird2

    Oh for God's sake... are these people insane?

  • -3

    SushiSake3

    Sail - "Somebody may be killed or injured in a cross fire granted, but conversely the killer is now confronted and having to deal with this new threat."

    That right there is the most eye-popping comment I've read in a while. 

    You are talking about a shoot out in a classroom as if it's a walk in the park.

    Sail - straight up mate - do you have any idea how hopelessly out of touch you sound?

    You should be outraged that you - let alone anyone - should have to spend even a split second holding the thought that there would be a gun anywhere near an institute of learning of anything, let alone one that contains children. 

    I had no idea how far American society has sunk.

    Now, 'thanks' to your incredibly blasé comment, I think I'm getting a fair idea. :-(

  • -1

    yabits

    Doesn't square with reality, 90 percent is more to the a lack of classroom size available to hold the training.

    Wrong. The vast majority of pilots are not volunteering for the program.

    There has already been one "incident" where a pilot accidentally discharged a firearm in the cockpit while in flight. The risk of these type of accidents, in my opinion, outweighs whatever security benefits are achieved.

    I predict that, within five or six years, an incident will occur that will bring down an airliner with all aboard -- and the cause will be the discharge of a firearm in the cockpit for accidental or unknown reasons. Soon afterwards, pilots will not be allowed to pack heat in cockpits.

  • 0

    BurakuminDes

    Your tax dollars at work:

    Nationwide, at least 23,000 schools — about one-third of all public schools — already had armed security on staff as of the most recent data, for the 2009-10 school year, and a number of states and districts that do not use them have begun discussing the idea in recent days.

    My tax dollars? I'm Australan - we don't allow you gun-crazies (who often have mental issues) to run around with assault weapons. Hence the minor impact of gun crime in Australia/Japan/UK etc to the gun-crazy USA with their pathetic rag that declares the "right to bear arms". Sane nations would burn that rag.

  • -1

    SushiSake3

    Anyone who advocates any more than zero guns in the hands of anyone besides police and security force personnel really isn't taking this debate - or the lives of ordinary Americans and kids - seriously.

    The plague that is the NRA is the last group of terrorists any sane American should be listening to. 

  • -1

    yabits

    The plague that is the NRA is the last group of terrorists any sane American should be listening to.

    Indeed. Their approach does seem to be "fight terror with more terror." Now parents have to worry about accidents and mayhem with the guns legally brought onto school grounds.

    Modern problems such as this one require systems-based thinking not within the realm of the conscience of those whose thinking hasn't evolved beyond the OK Corral. (When you read: "good guy-bad guy," it's a dead giveaway.) For them, life is as simple as what is presented on "professional" wrestling, or who is wearing the black hat.

    Put another way, it is nearly a certainty that reacting to a situation with security as the main aim and focus, will only make things less secure. Alan Watts spelled out the insanity of it beautifully in The Wisdom of Insecurity.

  • 0

    Cos

    The gun lobby argues that there is no way to stop crazy or evil people doing bad things

    And if your kid is a "crazy or evil kid", the teacher will shoot. That's not a question. Surveys showed they are already routinely using tasers on unruly children.

  • 1

    sailwind

    It's an arithmetic issue to be fair, so I realize the disadvantage my argument has when discussing with a die-hard Republican ;)

    Math:

    Estimated over 300 million guns now in the U.S

    Plus:

    The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

    Just really doesn't add up, well if your a liberal that is :).

  • -2

    Madverts

    And the number of spree-killings....?

  • 1

    sailwind

    And the number of spree-killings....?

    Data from 1980 to 2010 graph is also included at the link.

    There is one not-so-tiny flaw in all of these theories for the increase in mass shootings. **And that is that mass shootings have not increased in number or in overall body count, at least not over the past several decades. **

    Without minimizing the pain and suffering of the hundreds of who have been victimized in seneless attacks, the facts say clearly that the has been no increase in mass killings, and certainly no epidemic. Occasionally, we have witnessed short-term spikes with several shootings clustering close together in time.

    In the 1980s, we had a flurry of postal shootings, and the 1990s included a half dozen schoolyard massacres. Other than the copycatting reflected in these cases, the clustering of mass murders is nothing more than random timing and sheer coincidence.

    http://boston.com/community/blogs/crimepunishment/2012/08/noincreaseinmass_shootings.html

  • -1

    Madverts

    You could always just admit spree killings are on the up...

    Would tou like a spade to carry on digging that hole? ;)

  • 1

    sailwind

    You could always just admit spree killings are on the up..

    Except that they are not. Not sure how you got that from the link I provided. Here another article from A.P no less.

    No rise in mass killings, but their impact is huge

    Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections who has written a history of mass murders in America, said that while mass shootings rose between the 1960s and the 1990s, they actually dropped in the 2000s. And mass killings actually reached their peak in 1929, according to his data. He estimates that there were 32 in the 1980s, 42 in the 1990s and 26 in the first decade of the century.

    Chances of being killed in a mass shooting, he says, are probably no greater than being struck by lightning.

    Still, he understands the public perception - and extensive media coverage - when mass shootings occur in places like malls and schools. "There is this feeling that could have been me. It makes it so much more frightening."

    http://www.waff.com/story/20353221/no-rise-in-mass-killings-but-their-impact-is-huge

  • -4

    smithinjapan

    Herve: And once again you and the gun-nutters fail to acknowledge the fact that Columbine had armed security and that did NOTHING to prevent the massacre.

    Only in the US would this insanity be debated. People who want or need guns have mental health issues (and by their own verdict should be denied the guns).

  • -1

    Madverts

    Sailwind,

    Hey, convince yourself it 'aint so however you see fit.

    "Since Seung-Hui Cho went on a murderous rampage and opened fire on the campus of Virginia Tech five years ago, spree killings have cut short 135 lives and injured 167 innocent victims. The pace of spree killings is increasing and so to is the extent of the mayhem."

    Keywords: Since. 2007. (and the worst ever US gun massacre). Increasing.

    http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/civil-liberties/news/2012/07/26/11817/spree-killings-growing-more-frequent-and-more-deadly/

    Let us no forget those the gun nuts leave behind in their murderous orgy. The injured in spree-killings has also greatly increased since records began in recent years. Exponentially in 2012.

    I wonder if this has anything to do with the support you're lending for more and more people to own the sort of weapons that only belong a battlefield....?

    Put your thinking cap in and get back to me on that one. I'd appreciate an honest reply.

  • -1

    Madverts

    Also, here's a link (lol don't flinch but that is my hand on your knee but only a man-friend jest to prevent it jerking):

    http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/07/mass-shootings-map

    I know, sorry, 47% - I couldn't resist!!

    There's specifics on school gun-slayings, but the part I found most astonishing was to learn that not only were nearly all the guns used legally obtained by the perps, but that by far the most were killed using semi-automatic or assault rifles.

  • -1

    Jerome_from_Utah

    Hoplophobia: An irrational fear of arms or armed citizens. Term coined by Jeff Cooper in 1962. Hypocrite: A US Senator who has had a concealed carry license issued by San Francisco in 1995 according to one reference. I recall Senator Feinstein bragging about it before 1992 ("The Year of the Woman", by the way.) which helped her win that first Senate race. This same Senator said in 1994 that if she had the votes, she would have banned ALL firearms. "Mr. and Mrs. America, Turn them all in." She is now sponsoring legislation intended to do most of that objective.

  • -1

    yabits

    Hoplophobia: An irrational fear of arms or armed citizens.

    Hey, Jerome, he's your chance to coin a new term: An irrational fear of logical, sensible gun laws.

  • -1

    badsey3

    It seems teachers need to learn more about guns and more shooting sports need to be available at USA schools. In Japan you have archery plus other martial arts. When is the last time you have seen a school archer go on a rampage? Education is really the key here and the USA schools + gun education makes sense.

    Obama is right and more guns are needed to combat the evil do-ers with guns coming off the street and into schools wanting to do harm = Gun education. We need to give the students the proper tools necessary to fight these criminal elements that wish to do them harm.

  • -1

    Howaitosan

    And the answer to America's increasing number of mass shootings is .......... PUT MORE GUNS OUT THERE!!!! This is a whole new definition of "stupid".

    The first thing the US should do to control the situation is to outlaw the NRA; and if they insist on having guns in every home, someone should use one to do the country a favour and shoot Wayne LaPierre.

  • -1

    SuperLib

    sailwind: The number of violent crimes in the United States dropped significantly last year, to what appeared to be the lowest rate in nearly 40 years, a development that was considered puzzling partly because it ran counter to the prevailing expectation that crime would increase during a recession.

    That's great, but the stat I'm most interested in is the one that says a high number of guns on the streets leads to a high number of gun deaths. I still haven't found anyone to counter that one.

  • 1

    guuzendesu

    sushisake, when you say someone handed in a rocket launcher, aren't you just reinforcing the idea that people get weapons they're not supposed to have? (Hint: YES)

    What no one seems to be addressing is the fact that arming or disarming is not the issue. It should be teaching people skills to cope with life from an early age. Things like avoiding a victimized mentality, self-defense, acting instead of standing by, these sorts of things. Preventing loonies would end the gunfights before they start.

    That should be where our efforts lie.

  • 1

    Herve Nmn L'Eisa

    smith, you brought up the armed "guards" at Columbine. And where exactly were those individuals at the time the shooting was occurring ? Allow me to refresh your memory:

    " On April 20, 1999, Neil Gardner, an armed sheriff's deputy who had been policing the school for almost two years, was eating lunch when Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold arrived at Columbine with their deadly arsenal and deadlier intentions.

    Gardner said he got a call from a custodian that he was needed in the school's back parking lot. A few minutes later, he encountered Harris, and the two exchanged gunfire. The exchange with Harris lasted for an extended period of time, during which Harris' gun jammed."

    ONE deputy sheriff to face multiple shooters. Without him, the result would have been much worse. How many Secret Service agents guard the students at the elite academy where the politicians' children attend?

  • 1

    sailwind

    Madverts,

    A link to lobbying institute that is states on its homepage that it is dedicated to improving the lives of Americans through progressive ideas and action. And a link to Mother Jones magazine required reading for any Liberal that pines for the sixties does not impress.

    I might as well post NRA press releases but since I wish to be taken seriously I'll just use the L.A Times article. They also included a link in the article to an outfit called Mathematical Malpractice Watch, were they tore apart MotherJones on this.

    2012 is tragic, but mass shootings not increasing, experts say

    "There is one not-so-tiny flaw in all of these theories for the increase in mass shootings," James Alan Fox, a criminologist at Northeastern University in Boston, wrote for Boston.com in August. "And that is that mass shootings have not increased in number or in overall body count, at least not over the past several decades."

    Fox cited a particularly broad set of FBI and police data that counted shootings between 1980 and 2010 in which four or more people were killed: The average pace was about 20 mass murders per year, with a death toll of about 100. Casualty counts fluctuated wildly -- some years would have almost 125 dead, but then be followed by a year with fewer than 50 mass shooting fatalities. Far steadier was the number of attacks, which usually stayed at fewer than 25 per year.

    This year has been especially bloody, though. According to a running tally by Mother Jones magazine, whose counts slightly differ -- the magazine excluded robberies and gang violence, to some criticism, and limited the tally to public attacks

    http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-mass-shootings-common-20121218,0,6511082.story

    Here's what Motherjones did:

    Mathematical Malpractice Watch: Guns

    A few weeks ago, Mother Jones did a timeline of mass shootings in response to the spate of summer shootings. The defined their criteria, listed 61 incidents and pointed out, correctly, that most of them were committed with legal firearms.

    The highlight is a map of mass shootings over the last thirty years. The map has some resemblance to Radley Balko’s famous map of botched law enforcement raids. But the use of a map and dots is where the resemblance ends. Balko was very clear that his list of incidents was not, in any way, definitive. And he did not try to parse his incomplete data to draw sketchy conclusions.

    Mother Jones felt under no such compulsion.

    One of things we’ve learned here at Mathematical Malpractice Watch is that these incidents are very rarely a result of accident or ignorance. They are usually a result of someone trying to massage the data to reach a conclusion that it can not support when analyzed objectively.

    http://michaelsiegel.net/?p=5506

  • 0

    sailwind

    That's great, but the stat I'm most interested in is the one that says a high number of guns on the streets leads to a high number of gun deaths. I still haven't found anyone to counter that one.

    Ran across this and you might be interested in it:

    To those with an emotional bias against guns, it goes without saying that more guns in private hands invariably mean more crime and violence. If the number of people carrying firearms on campus rises, then of course that campus is less safe. What could be more obvious?

    While the University of Colorado spent much of the past decade resisting the state’s concealed-carry law, Colorado State University complied with it. If the gun controllers are right, Colorado State should have seen a surge in crime, while its gun-banning sister institution should have been an Eden of security and lawfulness. That’s not what happened. As Clayton E. Cramer and David Burnett write in a new monograph for the Cato Institute, “crime at the University of Colorado has risen 35 percent since 2004, while crime at Colorado State University has dropped 60 percent in the same time frame.’’

    http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2012/03/20/safer-society-with-guns/YxP7AjrsuTUannxAckCpTJ/story.html?camp=pm

    Since the Cato institute is a libertarian think tank, I'd suspect a right wing bias of course in the data but I checked recent crime stats for both universities and there really is a big difference between the two. Data is pretty eye-opening.

    Rapes, robberies, assault's burglary are roughly cut in half between the two Colleges.

    http://police.colostate.edu/pages/clery-act.aspx

    http://police.colorado.edu/uniform-crime-reports

  • 0

    SuperLib

    Without him, the result would have been much worse

    Without easy access to guns and hundreds of millions of them, things could have been much better.

  • -1

    SuperLib

    sail, I'd still like to see the stats that argue against the fact that a country with easy access to guns has a high rate of gun deaths.

  • 1

    sailwind

    I'd still like to see the stats that argue against the fact that a country with easy access to guns has a high rate of gun deaths.

    Not trying to claim we should adopt a model along that the Swiss have, but since you did ask.

    The Swiss Difference: A Gun Culture That Works

    Even as the gun-control debate rises again in the U.S. in the aftermath of the horrific school shooting in Newtown, Conn., the gun-loving Swiss are not about to lay down their arms. Guns are ubiquitous in this neutral nation, with sharpshooting considered a fun and wholesome recreational activity for people of all ages.

    Because of this general acceptance and even pride in gun ownership, nobody bats an eye at the sight of a civilian riding a bus, bike or motorcycle to the shooting range, with a rifle slung across the shoulder.

    Yet, despite the prevalence of guns, the violent-crime rate is low: government figures show about 0.5 gun homicides per 100,000 inhabitants in 2010. By comparison, the U.S rate in the same year was about 5 firearm killings per 100,000 people, according to a 2011 U.N. report.

    http://world.time.com/2012/12/20/the-swiss-difference-a-gun-culture-that-works/

  • 0

    deadbeatles

    Teachers in Utah will be allowed to carry in class. Fear mongering inventors offer a bullet proof back pack. Washington bans high capacity magazines. Okay... next shooting...

  • 0

    Noliving

    Herve: And once again you and the gun-nutters fail to acknowledge the fact that Columbine had armed security and that did NOTHING to prevent the massacre.

    **And you once again Smith ignore the fact that the armed security was not on the school grounds when the shooting the started that day. **They arrived like all the officers did after the shooting started and then what happened was that they waited for 38 minutes on the school grounds before they went into the school.

  • 0

    Athletes

    There is high risks of arming the teachers. When the teachers got bad mood or stroke, the bullets will hit the teachers and students. Not to intruder! According the Marine theory of gun, never hold the gun without the intention for shooting. Unlike Marines, most teachers have no gut or interest for killing someone. In the future, priests or nuns have to carrry the guns for safety in the church. Baby sitters have to carry the guns for protecting babies. If the gun is loaded while holding the babies, accident will happen.

  • 0

    yessir

    Happy to no longer live in the USA. Thank you Japan for having gun control.

  • -1

    Thomas Michael Lewis

    Schools need armed security so innocent children dont get shot. America being a developed country is the worlds largest lie. De-arming will take time, but as statistics constantly constantly prove, it works. The US murder rate is about five times the European average. 4/5 homicides in the US are gun related. Coincidence I think not.

  • 0

    Thomas Michael Lewis

    P.S. Blaming crazy people doesnt really work. Mental health care in Japan is DECADES behind the West, but the homicide rate is incredibly low. Proof that the mentally handicapped without guns will not take up knives instead.

  • -1

    Xeno23

    Let's consider the issue by removing the emotion heavy specifics: kids, schools, guns - what are we talking about? Improving an environment for a highly secure level of safety. How do we do that first?

    Examine one element at a time, then introduce the next one and assess how that changes the equation. First we define the area to be secured; is it fundamentally contained? No? Fix that. Successful "Safe Zones" are access controlled. And that doesn't necessarily take all that much.

    For schools, a 6' storm fence is probably enough to begin with. Next: who do we let in? Control that. Many Japanese schools close gates during classroom hours: simple. Then, oversight: a moderate surveillance system will do; they're not that expensive anymore. Do we need metal detectors? Probably not in schools. Monitors at the gate during open hours is likely good enough to start. Not difficult.

    These steps alone will go a long way. The next thing is vigilance. Monitors on a regular patrol of the environment - it need not be excessive, but it should be somewhat randomly scheduled. The next thing is to have a response protocol and training of personnel designated as monitors; this need not be draconian, but it does need to be comprehensively thought out.

    The next thing is security mindedness. Those who use the facility and those who come to the facility need to be made aware of what the security protocols are, how to comply, why they benefit, why it is in their interest, what to recognize as a problem, and how to report it. Look at airports now: people are habituated to pro-actively complying with security protocols - this can happen with schools, theaters, shopping malls too, but it doesn't require full body scanners or taking off your shoes.

    We've just improved security by huge leaps and bounds, and still haven't introduced active defenses, nor incurred huge costs. But here's the thing: these aren't sexy, and they don't make a lot of news, and they don't excite the media, or Internet blowhards.

  • 0

    Xeno23

    Now let's talk rationally about arming teachers. What do we arm them with? How do we insure safety in that case? When and how do they respond? How do we minimize disruption when engagement isn't necessary?

    Military studies have shown that most people are so adverse to shooting someone they won't do it, even in combat - this is part of military training: to get people to shoot. So arming every teacher, or most teachers won't work; anyway, that's not practical or a good idea. But those same studies have also shown that in groups even as small as four, there's typically someone who will rise to the occasion of defensive engagement; so select those types. Even one or two in an environment, for these kinds of situations is likely good enough. They need training, of course.

    Next, what do we arm them with? We've seen that when active shooters are opposed by adequate means, they give up, or shoot themselves. What does this mean? It means they don't want to be engaged. So, engage them with adequate means to assure them that they can't carry on with their task. But we also have to consider collateral damage, so in a school the most handy defensive weapon, a shotgun, isn't reasonable.

    How about non-lethal devices? Most disabling devices, like Tasers or gas or spray guns require closing the distance, so that's dangerous, but they should be part of the tool chest, because they just might be effective. But maybe they shouldn't be the only tool available. Despite the movies and TV, handguns are difficult to use correctly and effectively under stress without extensive training. But short rifles, carbines, are much more readily usable. And they don't need to be high caliber affairs - a .22 carbine in trained hands is effective; at least the Israeli army thinks so - they use them.

    If we do go with a handgun, what kind? Small, concealable handguns are difficult to use well, particularly in stress situations, when you most need to be able to use it well, instinctively, accurately. Most folks and professionals who carry, but aren't required to deploy often, if ever, choose a standard size piece, because it's easier to use; maybe even something with a supressor. Now, how do we safely store when not required? How do we access it when needed? How do we deploy and engage?

    The truth is, none of these things are easy. It's not like picking up a baseball bat. But with correct protocols and training, they can be simple. And they need to be practiced, so any armed responders need to run through on-site training to insure they can react readily, confidently, with requisite authority.

    In arming teachers then, we have to find the correct people who will actively engage; we train them correctly; we store the defensive tools securely; we don't disrupt the environment when engagement isn't required; we also have to let everyone know this is an option that can be taken.

    Is this even necessary? Maybe not; it should be up to the authorities of the individual locations. Eliminating emotional frenzy, is the location potentially insecure enough, or susceptible to an active shooter event that having an armed response is a good option? And we have to think of it as an option; a tool in the tool chest. Like all tools, its use must be well considered, and safely used. You don't swing a hammer around recklessly, and you don't use a hammer for every job.

    If we provide active engagement tools, we also need to insure that regular, peaceful users of the facility aren't freaked out about the option. They shouldn't need to think about it - except that it's an option, and what to do if it needs to be employed. So things like open carry can be counter-productive to the peace of regular operations.

    The point is, despite emotional hoopla, this can be handled safely, rationally, and responsibly. But first things first, secure the location by other means before resorting to this, and that may be all that's required.

  • 0

    HonestDictator

    Teachers running around schools with guns... yeah that's just brilliant. I'd prefer to have trained professional security or law enforcement personnel at least about 2-3 guarding the schools instead of trained professional teachers trying to shoot someone instead of trying to get the students out of harms way first.

  • 1

    illsayit

    my conclusion to the thus so far had discussion is that education is being revolutionized from it's Prussian beginnings. In Switerland the diverseness of culture cant be found that is in America. Trying to educate the future under one umbrella of politics is headed for disaster. This is just being played out in history now; how quickly the public wants to heggle it out is up to the public, but with this recent discussion surely people would be getting the hint, that education is headed in a new direction. Even the liberal and conservatives agree on this; that it is headed in a new direction. Because they dont agree on what direction causes all this crap. And so taking a new way away from the Prussian styled education; that is away from where the government controls what is education surely must be where it is headed. There are some who fear how that would reflect on gender equality, but in even the most equal of countries, Sweden, the results of research show that gender equality creates more psychological problems than not. Gender fairness is a must, but fighting for gender rights and as a part of the argument of how to be educated, that is equal education, seems to be heading in the wrong direction too. The same can be said for economical differences in education; to have the freedom of eductaion would seem a right, yet stipulating what qualifies as quality education surely must be allowed to differ. The same as to the length of time required to be eductaed and so on. It is just all too controlled and this argument about guns, just shows how controlling it would get. Trying to sweep it under one umbrella ...and well...... I hear Pink Floyd's song loud and clearly.

  • -1

    T-Mack

    If your going to give teachers guns, then won't they have to have law enforcement training as well? Why dont you have the teacher's teach how to shoot? Like a gun club?...and will they now need armor?, like bullet proof vest's? Where will it all stop once you put this into motion? It will only get worse, as long as thier are millions of guns in the hand's of criminal mind's, and the home's of irresponsible gun owner's... I vote "NO" on teacher's packing, or holding any kind of firearm what so ever. Leave that to law enforcement!..... please...!

  • -1

    T-Mack

    Please...!!!

  • 1

    TheDevilsAssistant

    Arming teachers? If every faculty member had a gun, how many guns would that be in one school. Thats one huge arsenal.

    As much as I respect teachers, teachers can go off the deep end too, It's another meaningless crime waiting to happen.

  • 0

    Loghorn

    Happy to no longer live in the USA. Thank you Japan for having gun control.

    Completely agree. If I ever have the money, I'd move to another country somewhere else like Japan in a heartbeat.

  • 1

    serendipitous

    Welcome to Utah. Set your watch back 20 years.

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